Democrats organize to fight back

[pbrower2a]

The 1461-day sentence of having to admit that Donald Trump is President and the consequences thereofbegins in toughly two months. I will be counting it down as if it were Hard Time in the Big House.

The one thing that I can predict is that just about every American will have experience exactly what a sociopath does -- sticking it to anyone that he can.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-19-2016, 02:29 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:



Should We Give Donald Trump a Chance? | The Resistance with Keith Olbermann | GQ

"All we are saying, is give fascism as chance? It might not be as bad as we think?"

Through Obama's two terms, the Republicans in Congress gave me the impression that they cared more about making the first black president look unsuccessful than they cared about the United States being successful.  The blocked everything he tried to do.  The new Democratic senate minority leader in his coming in speech said he did not intend to do that.  He would not reject and idea because it came from Trump, but he sure would reject bad ideas, fighting them tooth and nail.  I think this an important distinction, in part because I don't think the Democrats need to worry about Trump seeming like a successful president.

In the early presidential elect period, I'm not seeing that Trump is taking many of his campaign promises all that seriously.  As such, I'm not sure what in the world he intends to do.  To that extent, and to the extent that there seem to be enough Trump demonizers doing their thing, I don't think I need join the demonizer bandwagon just yet.

I am also seeing president elect Trump being the same guy as candidate Trump.  I was wondering if he was willing to fan the Republican base with hate and unusual ideas as a candidate, but would show a more intelligent rational side once elected.  So far, the only sign of a rational Trump has been what Obama has been saying.  Obama seems to be the biggest advocate for 'give Trump a chance' thus far.  While I don't care for demonization, I find myself less interested in giving Trump a chance than Obama is.

Now, I don't think the country is going to shake off its unravelling funk, it is not going to have a regeneracy, until the work together to promote good ideas crowd dominates the extreme partisan demonize anyone who disagrees crowd.  Our current culture of demonization brought us Trump.  Everyone in Washington being demonized resulted in the real unvarnished non-Washington guy getting elected.

At the same time, there is a strong case that Trump really is a demon and ought to be demonized.  Olbermann's point of view is hardly unique.  The demonization bandwagon is rolling, will not be stopped, the volume is unlikely to diminish.

My magic eight ball predicts an ugly 2 years followed by a disaster for the Republicans at the mid terms.  The question for me is what this will do to the extreme partisan divide.  I can see the gap, the mutual misunderstanding and distrust, being made worse, the government becoming even more dysfunctional.  I can hope for an anti-Trump coalition pushing for more good ideas than partisanship resulting in a regeneration enabling unity.  I can see a mix, with the divide of ideals being as strong as ever, but with one side having the numbers to quash the other.

Worst of all, the stagnant unravelling bickering could continue unchanged.

[Eric the Green]

One side will have the numbers to quash the other. We'll have to hope it's our side. That's how 4Ts work.

His appointments so far don't leave much room for giving him a chance.

Our "climate of demonization" brought us Trump? I think the electorate was possessed by a demon, and that brought us Trump. That demon is called Reaganomics. Oh, it has many other names too. You know what they are.

The wrong side has held power for 19 years of the 21st century, so far. (they can't be dislodged at the midterm; the odds are way against that). That's the only demon that counts. We have entered a 4T degeneracy. It's defeat and reversal would be the regeneracy.

[Eric the Green]

Things we will likely have to resist include, but are not limited to these:

The Trumpie has appointed as CIA chief a man who advocates torture, and who is rabidly anti-Iran. Trump has promised to pull out of the Iran deal. We don't know how long this will take, or whether the Iranians really meant what they said that they don't want to build nuclear weapons. But they were coming close to doing it anyway, it was reported. So what if they start developing nuclear weapons again, when Trump destroys the deal? Do his guys convince him to start another middle east preventive war? Before another "mushroom cloud" comes to Manhattan and engulfs Trump Tower? Protests break out as they did in 2003, all over Europe and even in the USA? What does Trump do about them? Can we stop the war? How many war crimes are committed, and how much secret repression in the USA?

The Trumpster has appointed as his transition leader for the EPA a leading, rabid climate science denier. Does the USA pull out of the Paris Agreement? Does he just ignore it? Does the agreement collapse, then? Does Trump shut down the EPA? When he takes off the mileage requirements and null the clean power plan, how fast does global warming proceed? Can CA require electric cars on its own, and will Trump sue CA? Does the pollution of our water return as it had been under Bush, or worse? How many pipelines rupture, at what cost to water and land? Does the climate breakdown proceed, this time toward catastrophe, and irreversible this time? How will the coal miners who voted for him feel after they discover their jobs are lost anyway? What will they say or do? How dangerous will fracking get? How do we resist the new war now being declared on the environment?

Does he limit deportation to criminal illegals, as he promised on 60 Minutes? Are there as many criminal aliens as he says, and if not, is he lying to deport them? How quickly does he deport DACA recipients, after removing the program? How far does he go with deportation, at what cost? How many peoples' lives and families does he ruin? How can the Latinos and others fight back? How much money can he get to build a wall? What size will this boondoggle be? Can sanctuary cities replace funds cut off?

Does his newly-designated racist attorney general reverse civil rights laws enforcement? How far will he go? How quickly will he curtail enforcement of the voting rights act? How quickly can Trump get the Courts to go along with his racist attorney general? Will there be a new civil rights movement? How violent will it get? How far will the militarization of police and racial profiling go under the racist attorney general? How many unarmed young black men will be shot down? How many riots will there be, and how will they be repressed? At what cost in lives? At what cost to burned out cities? What advice will Mr. Breitbart News give to Mr. Trump? Just how far will race hatred go as a result of his advice?

We can certainly assume many more will die in mass shootings than before under the new pro-gun regime. No need to ask THAT question. How long will the new right-wing Supreme Court be able to squash any new progressive legislation in the future? How much more will the fact that money rules politics, ruin it?

Will Trump be able to renegotiate NAFTA, and punish China for currency violations? Will this result in trade wars? Can he make any money for America with his tariffs? Will this really bring back any jobs? Will automation proceed apace and cost Americans their jobs anyway?

Will there be a crash after Dodd-Frank is repealed? How dizzy will the speculation and leveraging be? How big will the banks too big to fail get? How fast will a depression come, and how deep will it be, since the Fed and the Congress now have no tools to stimulate a recovery?

What will people do after their benefits they paid for are cut? What will replace Obamacare, and Medicare, and how are people going to pay for it? Will Trump get Mexico to pay for it? How many families and businesses will go bankrupt from health care costs? How many people will die because insurance companies don't or won't cover them? Where will all the new homeless people go? How much will Trump cut from research, from national parks, from welfare? Can he really find any "waste, fraud and abuse?" How unsafe will our jobs and consumer products be when he gets rid of most of the regulations? How much of our public lands will be sold off or exploited for profit? At what cost to our forests and wildlife?

How much will our national debt rise, and how fast? How much interest will this cost the taxpayers? Will congress approve money for his military boondoggles and his infrastructure building projects? Will Trump put his name on them? Will they be privatized and paid for with user tolls? What would this do to commerce? Will the US just go bankrupt or default because Trump invests the USA's money in the wrong projects, as he did in his business? Just what does our new CEO-president have in mind; what gigantic, expensive and crazy schemes? Can the Tea Party just shut the government down with impunity now, if the debt limit isn't raised? Will the USA default, and how soon? How much more inequality will result from all the new tax breaks for the rich? How much will our aristocratic oligarchy grow, and how permanently, from the repeal of the estate tax? Just how far will his corruption and nepotism go?

Are we even safe from nuclear war, with Trump's little hands on the nuclear codes? Have we become a vassal state of Russia, with what result for our allies? Will Putin be tempted to attack Estonia? Will Trump cry betrayal at Putin, and start WWIII? Is anything on Earth safe from the orange demon?

[Galen]

(11-19-2016, 04:38 AM)taramarie Wrote: "One side will have the numbers to quash the other. We'll have to hope it's our side. That's how 4Ts work."

.......maybe in my way or the highway America....

Do yourself a favor and look at Trump's appointments in light of the promises on his campaign web site.  Tell me what you think.

[Galen]

(11-19-2016, 05:34 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 05:06 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 04:38 AM)taramarie Wrote: "One side will have the numbers to quash the other. We'll have to hope it's our side. That's how 4Ts work."

.......maybe in my way or the highway America....

Do yourself a favor and look at Trump's appointments in light of the promises on his campaign web site.  Tell me what you think.

Trump is one person. Just one. I am talking about all of the extreme partisan behaviour I see daily from Americans. They would rather stand there and tear themselves apart than discuss anything. They seem to scream to the wind and hope it sticks while cupping their hands over their ears to whatever the opposite side has to say. Sometimes they shut them down immediately with derogatory labels like sexist or racist without even knowing if it is true or not. And even if true does it solve anything. It appears to me all they know is how to tear things down and not build back up. If Trump wants to bring Americans together he has a hell of a job ahead of him. I would be surprised if he did. I have my doubts...like seriously I do not think he will be able to pull it off. It would take a frigging nuclear war to get many over there to pull their heads out of their asses to pull together. I am seriously just fed up with them over there right now. I wash my hands of them. They are broken and continue to shatter their country and honestly do not give a shit it seems. Boomers like you know who are going to get Millennials and some xers into some war for their uncompromising, intolerant and inability to listen ways just like the civil war era and get them killed for their ideals. This is what it is building to whether right at home or overseas. Best of luck guys but do not say the kiwi did not warn you. I wash my hands of you guys. This will only end in more grief and possible bloodshed. The world warned you all. The sooner Americans wake up the better. You do not build up by further tearing things down or people in some cases. You build bridges between the two. This is the last thing I will say on that. If people do not understand that, well guess they have to learn the hard way.

I asked you to look at Trump's appointments in order to understand what is really happening and to take the measure of the man for yourself.  I don't regard him as a cause but rather an effect but understanding his intentions may give you some insight where this current turning is going.

[Eric the Green]

Warren fights back.

[Eric the Green]

Ruben Gallego fights back.

[Galen]

(11-19-2016, 05:50 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 05:44 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 05:34 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 05:06 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 04:38 AM)taramarie Wrote: "One side will have the numbers to quash the other. We'll have to hope it's our side. That's how 4Ts work."

.......maybe in my way or the highway America....

Do yourself a favor and look at Trump's appointments in light of the promises on his campaign web site.  Tell me what you think.

Trump is one person. Just one. I am talking about all of the extreme partisan behaviour I see daily from Americans. They would rather stand there and tear themselves apart than discuss anything. They seem to scream to the wind and hope it sticks while cupping their hands over their ears to whatever the opposite side has to say. Sometimes they shut them down immediately with derogatory labels like sexist or racist without even knowing if it is true or not. And even if true does it solve anything. It appears to me all they know is how to tear things down and not build back up. If Trump wants to bring Americans together he has a hell of a job ahead of him. I would be surprised if he did. I have my doubts...like seriously I do not think he will be able to pull it off. It would take a frigging nuclear war to get many over there to pull their heads out of their asses to pull together. I am seriously just fed up with them over there right now. I wash my hands of them. They are broken and continue to shatter their country and honestly do not give a shit it seems. Boomers like you know who are going to get Millennials and some xers into some war for their uncompromising, intolerant and inability to listen ways just like the civil war era and get them killed for their ideals. This is what it is building to whether right at home or overseas. Best of luck guys but do not say the kiwi did not warn you. I wash my hands of you guys. This will only end in more grief and possible bloodshed. The world warned you all. The sooner Americans wake up the better. You do not build up by further tearing things down or people in some cases. You build bridges between the two. This is the last thing I will say on that. If people do not understand that, well guess they have to learn the hard way.

I asked you to look at Trump's appointments in order to understand what is really happening and to take the measure of the man for yourself.  I don't regard him as a cause but rather an effect but understanding his intentions may give you some insight where this current turning is going.

Not interested and I am done with America. They will destroy themselves and bloody deserve it for their behaviour towards each other. I will simply sit and wait for the day they destroy themselves but hope they wake up before then. I am done. They are full of irrationality and  it is destroying them while they busy themselves pointing fingers at the enemy....their own. Yep I am done.

Like it or not, even New Zealand is going to have to deal with the consequences of decisions in the DC.  It may be unfair but there is nothing I can do about it.  I am more interested in getting you to see things ahead of everyone else so that you may make the decisions that will improve your own life.  History will proceed no matter how annoyed you are with the US but understanding it and the present may yet allow you to avoid misfortune.

As for Trump, I will say this: By becoming 45th President he has accomplished the impossible.  By the usual standards of the last eighty years he should have never pulled this off.  Who knows? Trump may yet beat the odds again.  I am in a position to know because statistically I should have been dead many years ago.

[pbrower2a]

(11-19-2016, 05:44 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 05:34 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 05:06 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 04:38 AM)taramarie Wrote: "One side will have the numbers to quash the other. We'll have to hope it's our side. That's how 4Ts work."

.......maybe in my way or the highway America....

Do yourself a favor and look at Trump's appointments in light of the promises on his campaign web site.  Tell me what you think.

Trump is one person. Just one. I am talking about all of the extreme partisan behaviour I see daily from Americans. They would rather stand there and tear themselves apart than discuss anything. They seem to scream to the wind and hope it sticks while cupping their hands over their ears to whatever the opposite side has to say. Sometimes they shut them down immediately with derogatory labels like sexist or racist without even knowing if it is true or not. And even if true does it solve anything. It appears to me all they know is how to tear things down and not build back up. If Trump wants to bring Americans together he has a hell of a job ahead of him. I would be surprised if he did. I have my doubts...like seriously I do not think he will be able to pull it off. It would take a frigging nuclear war to get many over there to pull their heads out of their asses to pull together. I am seriously just fed up with them over there right now. I wash my hands of them. They are broken and continue to shatter their country and honestly do not give a shit it seems. Boomers like you know who are going to get Millennials and some xers into some war for their uncompromising, intolerant and inability to listen ways just like the civil war era and get them killed for their ideals. This is what it is building to whether right at home or overseas. Best of luck guys but do not say the kiwi did not warn you. I wash my hands of you guys. This will only end in more grief and possible bloodshed. The world warned you all. The sooner Americans wake up the better. You do not build up by further tearing things down or people in some cases. You build bridges between the two. This is the last thing I will say on that. If people do not understand that, well guess they have to learn the hard way.

I asked you to look at Trump's appointments in order to understand what is really happening and to take the measure of the man for yourself.  I don't regard him as a cause but rather an effect but understanding his intentions may give you some insight where this current turning is going.

He is clearly to the Right of his campaign promises except on being a white nationalist, where his appointments match his statements.

He did not promise Gilded-Age economics -- but his appointments suggest that he would be satisfied with transforming America into the plutocracy that it was before 1932.
 
As a rule his appointments are extremists who fail to recognize the validity of the concerns of the other side, scientific fact (global warming, safety of pesticides), or Constitutional rulings (as on rights of the accused, contraception, and same-sex marriage).

He admires dictators. I would be less scared had he said that he admires Margaret Thatcher than such 'strong' leaders as Putin.

It's nice to hear about an infrastructure program -- but I count on it to be full of graft.

But I already have the measure of the man. He is a sociopath, a demagogue, and a private-sector kleptocrat. He sees any opposition as disloyal even to the point of treasonable. He recognizes no virtue other than profit. His sex life is shameful in the extreme.

If were to get into a war while he is President then I expect it to be bungled badly. If we are to get into a war, then let us at least have someone who recognizes the real danger and, like Lincoln or FDR, simply resolves to get the nasty business over.

He is a "My Way or the Highway" leader, the sort that people resist if they can, and cannot be trusted with civil liberties. He has willingly divided Americans into tribal groups based upon ethnicity and religion with the expectation that a unified 'white tribe' will prevail due to its sheer numbers of people who put ethnic identity above all else.

It won't be long until Americans despise him in numbers far greater than the peak numbers involving Barack Obama. Things will just get worse... and worse... and worse. By 2020 he or any hand-picked successor will be unable to win a free election to the Presidency.

[pbrower2a]

(11-19-2016, 06:14 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 05:50 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 05:44 AM)Galen Wrote: [quote pid='13451' dateline='1479551693']
I asked you to look at Trump's appointments in order to understand what is really happening and to take the measure of the man for yourself.  I don't regard him as a cause but rather an effect but understanding his intentions may give you some insight where this current turning is going.

Not interested and I am done with America. They will destroy themselves and bloody deserve it for their behaviour towards each other. I will simply sit and wait for the day they destroy themselves but hope they wake up before then. I am done. They are full of irrationality and  it is destroying them while they busy themselves pointing fingers at the enemy....their own. Yep I am done.

Like it or not, even New Zealand is going to have to deal with the consequences of decisions in the DC.  It may be unfair but there is nothing I can do about it.  I am more interested in getting you to see things ahead of everyone else so that you may make the decisions that will improve your own life.  History will proceed no matter how annoyed you are with the US but understanding it and the present may yet allow you to avoid misfortune.

As for Trump, I will say this: By becoming 45th President he has accomplished the impossible.  By the usual standards of the last eighty years he should have never pulled this off.  Who knows? Trump may yet beat the odds again.  I am in a position to know because statistically I should have been dead many years ago.
[/quote]

I see your suggestions as advice on how to live a nastier world in which economic elites trample over every human decency and expect people to be thankful that they get to survive in a far nastier world in which the economic elites rule without any lasting contest (because anyone who opposes them will be rendered helpless, if not murdered outright). If that is the world that I must accept as a condition of survival, then I have nothing to live for.

Donald Trump has achieved what seems impossible -- bringing what looks like dictatorship to America. Such is his style, and he has doubled down on his style after being elected. This is the Mordred of the modern world. I have no claim that the Arthurian legend shaped ideas of our Founding Fathers -- but I expect the Round Table to have been smashed to smithereens this time.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-19-2016, 06:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:



Ruben Gallego fights back.

Note:  It seems to be against the House rules to speak truth?

[pbrower2a]

The President of the Senate, the President-Elect, and the Speaker of the House now define what truth is in America. 1984 begins in America in 2017.

[Eric the Green]

LEONARD PITTS JR
NOVEMBER 15, 2016 5:45 PM
I’m not in the mood for ‘unity.’ At the end of the day, Trump’s still a bigot


The Ku Klux Klan took the unusual step of endorsing Donald Trump’s candidacy and has exulted in his electoral victory in the presidential race. John Bazemore AP

BY LEONARD PITTS, JR.
lpitts@miamiherald.com

It is time for the country to heal, time for us come together.

Or so people have been telling me since last week when democracy laid the biggest egg in American history. Well, here is my response: I have no interest in seeing this country heal. And I refuse to come together.

Understand: If this were just about politics, I’d never say something like that. No, I’d do what you’re supposed to when the candidate you favored is defeated. Suck it up.

But my anger is not about any given policy of the new president. No, it is about him, about the election of a fundamentally unsound, unserious and unfit man, a misogynist who brags about sexual assault, a bigot cheered to victory by the Ku Klux Klan. I have no idea how to “heal” woman hating and no desire to “come together” with the Klan.

I am similarly impatient with those who say we must give the new president a chance to lead and hope for his success.

Is that what Republicans did for Barack Obama when they gathered on the night of his inauguration and plotted a conspiracy of obstructionism to cripple his presidency? Is it what Donald Trump did when he spent years questioning the veracity of an ordinary birth certificate?

More to the point, the call to let Trump lead and hope for his success fails to address obvious questions: Where is he leading us? How are we defining success? Should we applaud even if he “leads” us into another unnecessary Middle East conflagration? Are we expected to be happy if his “success” comes in criminalizing abortion?

Frankly, I won’t cheer him even if he is not a disaster. In the unlikely event the man who considers global warming a Chinese hoax took action to stem that threat, I’d be happy, yes. On the improbable chance the man who swore to repeal the Affordable Care Act crafted something better, I would be glad, sure.

But at the end of the day, the man who did those things would still be a misogynist and a bigot.

Forgive me — or don’t; I really don’t care — if that remains a deal breaker for me. I refuse to participate in this process of organized amnesia, to cooperate in normalizing a man who stands for everything America should not.

TRUMP IS NOT DOING MUCH TO STOP KKK, NEO-NAZIS

So what now? Well, now those of us who feel the same way must make it a priority to get off our assets and vote in 2018. And in the meantime, resist.

Sunday evening on HBO’s “Last Week Tonight,” John Oliver offered a list of organizations that defend the causes and peoples that will be most threatened in the coming reich and suggested you volunteer them your time and money. I think that’s a great idea, so I pass his list on to you:

Planned Parenthood (plannedparenthood.org); The Center For Reproductive Rights (reproductiverights.org); the Natural Resources Defense Council (nrdc.org); the International Refugee Assistance Project (refugeerights.org), the NAACP Legal Defense Fund (naacpldf.org); the Trevor Project for LGBTQ youth (thetrevorproject.org) and the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund (maldef.org). I’d also add The Southern Poverty Law Center (splcenter.org) and the American Civil Liberties Union (aclu.org).

It’s time the majority that believes in a progressive, inclusive and compassionate America did more than just tweet about it. Nothing wrong with tweeting, but forces of exclusion, hatred and rage have overtaken the highest office in the land, so it’s also time for some old school activism. Time to march. Time to assail lawmakers. Time to boycott. Time to stand and be counted. Enough is enough.

Let’s take our country back.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-c...rylink=cpy

[Eric the Green]

[Warren Dew]

(11-19-2016, 04:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

I agree with the spirit of this, but not with the numbers.  Even if Congress pays back the money, social security will be far from solvent.  Social securiity has always been a ponzi scheme.

Social security will not last in its present form to gen X.  I think most X would prefer to recognize that fact and phase it out in favor of something else.  In fact, I suspect most would be willing to subsidize boomers in order to get the phaseout - maybe putting half their money into the trust fund to pay off the boomers - if the other half were put into individual accounts where the ownership was clearly theirs, rather than the present system where they have to trust the government.

[Ragnarök_62]

(11-19-2016, 08:26 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

Quote:Social security will not last in its present form to gen X. 

It will if we pop the cap and cut defense spending to the bone. We don't need boondoggles like that F-35 which is not battle ready.

Quote:I think most X would prefer to recognize that fact and phase it out in favor of something else. 

I do not want my SS cut for whatever reason. I'm OK with Boomers getting it and I think I should also. It's pretty simple. At age 54, I can't do some things I could do at age 18. At age 67, there will be even fewer things I can can do. If I hit my parents' age, 79, I don't think I can much of anything in the way of work, because my parents can't. And so it goes. If I hit 90, like my Lost great aunt , great/great Swedish aunts/uncles on mom's side, and some aunts/uncles, I'll be even less able to do stuff, except perhaps clean and cook. If they're are X'ers who think they can work all they're lives, they have another thing coming. If they hit normal retirement age, a sizable number will not be able to work. Those who think getting rid of SS are short sighted idiots who apparently don't have old relatives or something.  I'd also have to guess Playwrite would be correct when he said "long term thinking isn't Xers' strong suit.".

Quote:In fact, I suspect most would be willing to subsidize boomers in order to get the phaseout - maybe putting half their money into the trust fund to pay off the boomers - if the other half were put into individual accounts where the ownership was clearly theirs, rather than the present system where they have to trust the government.

I trust the government far more than I trust Wall $treet.  You're right, they'll own it alright, they'll own something where they get ripped off with front running and fees. I don't want to run a rather high risk of outliving my money.


PS

Just look at this left wing rag's tell all about Ryan sucking the Krotch Bro's dicks!

[Eric the Green]

(11-19-2016, 08:26 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 04:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

I agree with the spirit of this, but not with the numbers.  Even if Congress pays back the money, social security will be far from solvent.  Social securiity has always been a ponzi scheme.

If what was stolen is paid back, and the theft is stopped, social security would be more than solvent. If we start the 21st century in the 2020s, and sanity returns from the grip of you laissez faire trickle-downers, then we can raise or pop the cap on minumum taxable income for social security as needed. The notion that SS is a ponzi scheme is the most disgraceful utterance from the Republican sloganbook, at least until the Trumpzilla came along. The baby boom may be a strain on it, but afterward it will be fine, as if no baby boom ever happened.

Quote:Social security will not last in its present form to gen X.  I think most X would prefer to recognize that fact and phase it out in favor of something else.  In fact, I suspect most would be willing to subsidize boomers in order to get the phaseout - maybe putting half their money into the trust fund to pay off the boomers - if the other half were put into individual accounts where the ownership was clearly theirs, rather than the present system where they have to trust the government.

Individualism and self-reliance fails. Many people don't do their part. Most people don't save for retirement. Social Security makes sure that today's workers cover seniors, and that they are covered by tomorrow's workers.

If we run out of workers due to automation, which is certainly possible, then the only alternative is guaranteed minimum income, from which SS is deducted; which is clearly possible if we recognize that the business owners do not own the machines that put us out of work; the people do. Tax them.

If you don't trust the government, then vote for people who are trustworthy, not for con-men like Donald Trump and greedy pigs like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. The people who made us distrust the government, were the people we voted for. We are the problem, because we are the government. And we get the government we deserve.

If personal SS accounts were invested in the stock market, then in effect the government would own the stock of all corporations.

[Warren Dew]

Eric, you're right about Rag's formatting.

(11-20-2016, 12:47 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 08:26 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 04:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

I agree with the spirit of this, but not with the numbers.  Even if Congress pays back the money, social security will be far from solvent.  Social securiity has always been a ponzi scheme.

If what was stolen is paid back, and the theft is stopped, social security would be more than solvent. If we start the 21st century in the 2020s, and sanity returns from the grip of you laissez faire trickle-downers, then we can raise or pop the cap on minumum taxable income for social security as needed. The notion that SS is a ponzi scheme is the most disgraceful utterance from the Republican sloganbook, at least until the Trumpzilla came along. The baby boom may be a strain on it, but afterward it will be fine, as if no baby boom ever happened.

Simply not true.  Social security is already being paid back as its investment in government bonds mature.  The trust fund is still set to go bankrupt in 2033.  The disability fund is set to go bankrupt in 2018, though that might be fixed by kicking out questionable cases of "disability".

And if you have to increase taxes to extend the ponzi scheme a few more years, that certainly puts the lie to the idea that we already paid into it.

Quote:

Quote:Social security will not last in its present form to gen X.  I think most X would prefer to recognize that fact and phase it out in favor of something else.  In fact, I suspect most would be willing to subsidize boomers in order to get the phaseout - maybe putting half their money into the trust fund to pay off the boomers - if the other half were put into individual accounts where the ownership was clearly theirs, rather than the present system where they have to trust the government.

Individualism and self-reliance fails. Many people don't do their part. Most people don't save for retirement. Social Security makes sure that today's workers cover seniors, and that they are covered by tomorrow's workers.

I don't disagree with any of that.  It's easily fixed by requiring that the individual accounts be invested in stable investments rather than gambles.  I'd suggest requiring half to be invested in federal government securiities, and allowing the other half to be invested  into index funds.  Just make them defined contribution accounts, like 401k accounts are, rather than the defined benefit model that is more susceptible to manipulation and bankruptcy.

Quote:If you don't trust the government, then vote for people who are trustworthy, not for con-men like Donald Trump and greedy pigs like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. The people who made us distrust the government, were the people we voted for. We are the problem, because we are the government. And we get the government we deserve.

Power corrupts, and no matter who you vote for, once they are in office, they have that corrupting power.  The only way to limit corruption in government is to reduce the size and power of government itself.

[pbrower2a]

...in some cases, aiding people in getting along with certain disabilities would keep people from becoming public charges over longer times.

Heck, if society had adapted to my Asperger's, like retraining me, then I might have had a long and successful career doing something useful, highly remunerative, and suitable for me becoming an above-average tax-payer. To be sure, there is no medical treatment for Asperger's; it is as damaging as alcoholism. I am sure that anyone can tell much about my verbal skills and mastery of formal logic through my posts. That's not bragging. I am humble about the rest.