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The Triumph of Stupidity in American Politics
#21
(11-25-2020, 05:23 PM)Mickey123 Wrote: I think you, and the members of this forum in general, are making a mistake when you try to root for one side in this conflict.  You have no idea where this is headed, and there's no way to even predict whether the outcome of any battle is good or bad in the long run.  Maybe Biden winning the election results in Trump refusing to leave office and we have a successful fascist takeover of the U.S.  Maybe Trump leaves, and Biden in time takes us to war against Russia, and this ends in nuclear war.  The outcome of all this is currently unknowable.

Sadly, there's more than a little truth to this.  Issues that need addressing are not necessarily aligned with any side -- even when one side is promoting an unmitigated good.  Good has a tendency to evolve; so does bad. 

There are three issues that are unambiguous: climate change, pandemic control and inequality.  No politician is actually doing any of those things today. Climate change is still happening, or not.  Most of the actions being taken are driven by market forces, which are unlikely to be in the best interest of the majority. The pandemic may be under better control because so many vaccines are getting qualified, but there is still the issue of getting it into the arms of a skeptical public.  And inequality is growing so fast that it's quickly escaping the potential of being controlled.

Other than that, have a Happy Thanksgiving.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#22
(11-25-2020, 05:23 PM)Mickey123 Wrote:
(11-25-2020, 02:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: A mere 3% of voters for President Donald Trump think President-elect Joe Biden won the 2020 election, while 73% think the incumbent was the victor, according to a CNBC/Change Research poll.

As Trump repeatedly loses vote challenges in court as his lawyers fail to prove wrongdoing in the election count, two-thirds of his supporters think he should never concede to Biden.

The findings underscore the harm Trump’s unsubstantiated claims have done to confidence in the U.S. electoral system.

What you're missing here is that Trump's action is just one step in a long process.

The electoral system was already broken, as the entire media organization of the U.S. chose to abandon their historical role as objective (more or less) reporters of the news, and openly opposed Trump.  When the media openly oppose one of the two political parties, that party can't have a fair election.  This is why Trump is able to get away with claiming the election was stolen.  Because it was stolen, but far earlier than election day, and not by anyone messing with ballots.

Some media are highly sympathetic to Trump. The Republican party has morphed from a center-right Party to a semi-fascist Party, and it acts as if power means more than does service. This is not the Gerald Ford era in the GOP any more. 

[Image: Media-Bias-Chart-5.1_May-2020_Ed_-Unlice...313361.jpg]


At the top is pure news reliable because the blitz style of reporting (AP and Reuters wires) largely keep reporters from putting their personalities or beliefs into the story. One gets news fast and succinct -- but at the cost of depth. To get more depth one needs people capable of doing analysis. If you want to know consequences, then one needs to tolerate some tugs on the emotions. But here is where one finds what the social problems are. Or, if you are concerned with economic activity, the Wall Street Journal lists somewhat to the Right -- but investors and executives tend to be to the Right of center. This said, WSJ does fine reporting on financial topics. 

The more that one leaves the realm of raw news and goes into analysis, the more likely that one goes away from the political center... and the more likely that the material that one consumes confirms one's bias. Toward the bottom the news content may be irrelevant  (supermarket tabloids such as the National Enquirer) or suspect. InfoWars looks like the worst, as it is full of conspiracy theories.   


Quote:Of course, the media themselves did this because under the old system, Donald Trump never would have been the Republican presidential candidate in the first place.  Under the old system, each party only nominated someone reasonable, someone who plays by the rules.  Trump wasn't a politician and didn't play by the rules, and Republicans broke the old rules by nominating him.

I fault the media for deciding that Donald Trump was worth plugging because he was supposedly fresh. Know well that Trump is an excellent exploiter of exposure, which in the past has helped him sell stuff. Not everything has been a success (he really is an awful businessman). The really-good businessmen don't dabble. Disney was late to go into live-action movies, and when he did so he made them on low budgets. Roy Kroc (McDonald's) could have decided to add gas pumps to his fast-food places... but thought that those would be a distraction. Penney did not go into the grocery business, and the Skaggs brothers (Safeway) didn't add clothing to their grocery business. It is best that certain businesses not have the same persons involved; you don't want physicians, pharmacists, and undertakers sharing duties; you don't want CPA firms doing retail banking, insurance, or investment banking. I know, I know, I know... everybody with loose cash has the dream of owning a winery, but wineries are hobbies at best. We all know that Donald Trump has a horribly-flawed character. Poor character is trouble. If one has poor character and command over people or high-value assets, then bad character creates the possibility of abuse or embezzlement. 


Quote:This is how it goes in a Crisis.  The system becomes increasingly unstable, and every reaction to this leads to yet more instability. 

Not everything. There are cautionary figures who delay rash responses. On the other side are people who take risks such as pressing for lopsided deals or diplomatic bullying. "Surrender this chunk of territory or yield your practical independence and there will be no war" , if done enough times, culminates in someone calling the bluff. Poland called Hitler's bluff in August 1939 by refusing to turn over its short coast on the Baltic Sea for nothing but worthless promises to stop. Hitler cut a deal with the Soviet Union to dismember Poland and invaded Poland with ferocious hatred. Lose territory and then become a satellite? That was unacceptable.    


Quote:This process will continue until everything spirals out of control and the country is in a civil war or a revolutionary war. The only thing that can "save" us from this is a major external war, against China or Russia.


Are you sure?

Quote:I think you, and the members of this forum in general, are making a mistake when you try to root for one side in this conflict.  You have no idea where this is headed, and there's no way to even predict whether the outcome of any battle is good or bad in the long run.  Maybe Biden winning the election results in Trump refusing to leave office and we have a successful fascist takeover of the U.S.  Maybe Trump leaves, and Biden in time takes us to war against Russia, and this ends in nuclear war.  The outcome of all this is currently unknowable.

...and if our political system gives in to the demands of Donald Trump, then we have sold out democracy. But for what? Nullification of a popular vote is valid only in the event of certifiable fraud in the election. Trump lost the 2020 election much the same way that he won the 2016 electino, the only difference being that states had to accommodate the Trump virus by allowing absentee balloting without excuses.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#23
We shall see soon enough whether media will relay the stream-of-consciousness drivel of Donald Trump or ignore it. I hope to see politics go back to bland and boring. If so, then it is too bad if you wee politics as entertainment. Subscribe to a more expensive tier of cable TV or buy your own ticket to concerts, sporting events, live theater, or the cinema when the time arises. Or expand your mind at a museum.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#24
(01-02-2021, 12:18 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We shall see soon enough whether media will relay the stream-of-consciousness drivel of Donald Trump or ignore it. I hope to see politics go back to bland and boring. If so, then it is too bad if you wee politics as entertainment. Subscribe to a more expensive tier of cable TV or buy your own ticket to concerts, sporting events, live theater, or the cinema when the time arises. Or expand your mind at a museum.

OANN and Parler will both do well, and I hope that at least a few real journalists will keep an eye on them.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#25
(11-25-2020, 05:23 PM)Mickey123 Wrote:
(11-25-2020, 02:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: A mere 3% of voters for President Donald Trump think President-elect Joe Biden won the 2020 election, while 73% think the incumbent was the victor, according to a CNBC/Change Research poll.

As Trump repeatedly loses vote challenges in court as his lawyers fail to prove wrongdoing in the election count, two-thirds of his supporters think he should never concede to Biden.

The findings underscore the harm Trump’s unsubstantiated claims have done to confidence in the U.S. electoral system.

What you're missing here is that Trump's action is just one step in a long process.

The electoral system was already broken, as the entire media organization of the U.S. chose to abandon their historical role as objective (more or less) reporters of the news, and openly opposed Trump.  When the media openly oppose one of the two political parties, that party can't have a fair election.  This is why Trump is able to get away with claiming the election was stolen.  Because it was stolen, but far earlier than election day, and not by anyone messing with ballots.

Of course, the media themselves did this because under the old system, Donald Trump never would have been the Republican presidential candidate in the first place.  Under the old system, each party only nominated someone reasonable, someone who plays by the rules.  Trump wasn't a politician and didn't play by the rules, and Republicans broke the old rules by nominating him.

This is how it goes in a Crisis.  The system becomes increasingly unstable, and every reaction to this leads to yet more instability. 

This process will continue until everything spirals out of control and the country is in a civil war or a revolutionary war. The only thing that can "save" us from this is a major external war, against China or Russia.

I think you, and the members of this forum in general, are making a mistake when you try to root for one side in this conflict.  You have no idea where this is headed, and there's no way to even predict whether the outcome of any battle is good or bad in the long run.  Maybe Biden winning the election results in Trump refusing to leave office and we have a successful fascist takeover of the U.S.  Maybe Trump leaves, and Biden in time takes us to war against Russia, and this ends in nuclear war.  The outcome of all this is currently unknowable.

As of now, it is unlikely that Trump can keep himself in office and thus engineer a fascist takeover of the USA. 10 former Defense Secretaries of both parties (led by Dick Cheney!) signed a letter to the Defense Dept. declaring in no uncertain terms that the military must stay out of the election and not stage a coup. There is still some danger that Trump's lackey Defense Secretary might order troops to protect Trump's refusal to leave the White House. But if this happens, the country will not function as before. The Nation will recognize Biden as president anyway, he will still take the Oath of Office at the Capitol, and if necessary Biden will make himself at home in another building. No-one will recognize Trump's orders except his coup participants. I don't think it will last long.

I am not making any mistake in rooting for the blue side. I know which side is right. You and other may disagree, and that is your right. The blue side will not start a "battle," it is a political contest. If our side wins, it will be legally and voted in. No, the only way out is not a civil war or an external war. We may get both at once, in fact, around 2025. I have predicted this. But if the blue side is in office after Nov.2024 (that depends on who the nominees are), it will prevail. The civil war will be conducted by a small group of crazies and defeated rather easily. The foreign war will be smaller scale too than in the past. Total wars are not really feasible anymore. But in a 4T, there is always a battle between the forces of progress and the forces of obstruction. There are no exceptions. This time, the battle is between my side and yours, the blue and the red. May the side of progress, my side, win.

You are definitely on the red side. You can't duck and cover from this label if you claim the media was "biased in favor of Trump." The MSM and most media does a good and fair job, and if anything the media created Trump by giving him by far the most free coverage, especially in 2016, but also in 2020. There was no "new system" that created Trump. He was just a skilled demagogue who was very adept at fooling enough people to get himself under the old system, which is still in place (the electoral college and the senate, created 230 years ago to keep slaveholders happy).

You are welcome Mickey to join our new forum. Bob Butler says my new facebook forum only attracts blues because I am admin, and I'm a blue. But I think some reds around helps enliven and widen the discussion. https://www.facebook.com/groups/396877864887524
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#26
(11-26-2020, 09:42 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(11-25-2020, 05:23 PM)Mickey123 Wrote: I think you, and the members of this forum in general, are making a mistake when you try to root for one side in this conflict.  You have no idea where this is headed, and there's no way to even predict whether the outcome of any battle is good or bad in the long run.  Maybe Biden winning the election results in Trump refusing to leave office and we have a successful fascist takeover of the U.S.  Maybe Trump leaves, and Biden in time takes us to war against Russia, and this ends in nuclear war.  The outcome of all this is currently unknowable.

Sadly, there's more than a little truth to this.  Issues that need addressing are not necessarily aligned with any side -- even when one side is promoting an unmitigated good.  Good has a tendency to evolve; so does bad. 

There are three issues that are unambiguous: climate change, pandemic control and inequality.  No politician is actually doing any of those things today. Climate change is still happening, or not.  Most of the actions being taken are driven by market forces, which are unlikely to be in the best interest of the majority. The pandemic may be under better control because so many vaccines are getting qualified, but there is still the issue of getting it into the arms of a skeptical public.  And inequality is growing so fast that it's quickly escaping the potential of being controlled.

Other than that, have a Happy Thanksgiving.
Of the three biggies that you mentioned, one is already resolved and the pandemic is the only one that can be resolved. So, who isn't free in America today? Are you blind, don't you see all the women in the workforce today? Didn't you see a black President in the White House? Don't you see the black coaches and politicians and movie stars and wealthy people that we see these days? I'd say, inequality has been addressed and pretty much resolved. Who isn't free to advance and do as they please these days? We have some problems with sex in the workplace. We still have sexually attracted males and females who mingle that causes problems. We still have opportunistic bosses with active sex drives and ambitious employees who will do whatever to advance that causes some problems.

As far as climate change, that's pretty much here to stay. We're fortunate that we've been transitioning and becoming more efficient and paying more attention to the environment for many decades. We aren't perfect but we aren't that bad for a super power. We could be still like China and Russia and India today. There's your problems dude. It's not us. We understand that we can't crush American economies as a means to address environmental issues related to other countries that Limousine Liberals lack the balls to address at this time. The Limousine's have to much time and money invested and are making to much money off their relationship with them to do anything about them now.
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#27
(01-05-2021, 02:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(11-26-2020, 09:42 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(11-25-2020, 05:23 PM)Mickey123 Wrote: I think you, and the members of this forum in general, are making a mistake when you try to root for one side in this conflict.  You have no idea where this is headed, and there's no way to even predict whether the outcome of any battle is good or bad in the long run.  Maybe Biden winning the election results in Trump refusing to leave office and we have a successful fascist takeover of the U.S.  Maybe Trump leaves, and Biden in time takes us to war against Russia, and this ends in nuclear war.  The outcome of all this is currently unknowable.

Sadly, there's more than a little truth to this.  Issues that need addressing are not necessarily aligned with any side -- even when one side is promoting an unmitigated good.  Good has a tendency to evolve; so does bad. 

There are three issues that are unambiguous: climate change, pandemic control and inequality.  No politician is actually doing any of those things today. Climate change is still happening, or not.  Most of the actions being taken are driven by market forces, which are unlikely to be in the best interest of the majority. The pandemic may be under better control because so many vaccines are getting qualified, but there is still the issue of getting it into the arms of a skeptical public.  And inequality is growing so fast that it's quickly escaping the potential of being controlled.

Other than that, have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Of the three biggies that you mentioned, one is already resolved and the pandemic is the only one that can be resolved. So, who isn't free in America today? Are you blind, don't you see all the women in the workforce today? Didn't you see a black President in the White House? Don't you see the black coaches and politicians and movie stars and wealthy people that we see these days? I'd say, inequality has been addressed and pretty much resolved. Who isn't free to advance and do as they please these days? We have some problems with sex in the workplace. We still have sexually attracted males and females who mingle that causes problems. We still have opportunistic bosses with active sex drives and ambitious employees who will do whatever to advance that causes some problems.

I listed inequality not freedom, and no one disputes that.  It's like the old song from the end of the last Gilded Age: "the rich get rich and the poor get poorer".  The disparity in both income and wealth is growing at a ridiculous pace, and it's unsustainable.  Just ask the Romanovs and Bourbons how that worked for them.

Eventually, it will be resolved. Common sense says to do it peacefully, but the rich aren't having any of that!

C-Xer Wrote:As far as climate change, that's pretty much here to stay. We're fortunate that we've been transitioning and becoming more efficient and paying more attention to the environment for many decades. We aren't perfect but we aren't that bad for a super power. We could be still like China and Russia and India today. There's your problems dude. It's not us. We understand that we can't crush American economies as a means to address environmental issues related to other countries that Limousine Liberals lack the balls to address at this time. The Limousine's have to much time and money invested and are making to much money off their relationship with them to do anything about them now.

Are you actually alive on THIS planet? Today, the Chinese are at least 20 years ahead of us on renewables, and have decided to eliminate fossil-fuel vehicles by 2035.  Are we even talking about it yet? And India will follow suit as soon as it's economy will allow (they're still very poor per capita). At least you have the Russians nailed. and fwiw, I'm all in on raising the taxes on the rich to a top nominal rate of 70% on all income and using the money to buy better infrastructure.  How about you?
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#28
(01-05-2021, 02:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(11-26-2020, 09:42 AM)David Horn Wrote: There are three issues that are unambiguous: climate change, pandemic control and inequality.  No politician is actually doing any of those things today. Climate change is still happening, or not.  Most of the actions being taken are driven by market forces, which are unlikely to be in the best interest of the majority. The pandemic may be under better control because so many vaccines are getting qualified, but there is still the issue of getting it into the arms of a skeptical public.  And inequality is growing so fast that it's quickly escaping the potential of being controlled.

Of the three biggies that you mentioned, one is already resolved and the pandemic is the only one that can be resolved. So, who isn't free in America today? Are you blind, don't you see all the women in the workforce today? Didn't you see a black President in the White House? Don't you see the black coaches and politicians and movie stars and wealthy people that we see these days? I'd say, inequality has been addressed and pretty much resolved. Who isn't free to advance and do as they please these days? We have some problems with sex in the workplace. We still have sexually attracted males and females who mingle that causes problems. We still have opportunistic bosses with active sex drives and ambitious employees who will do whatever to advance that causes some problems.

Partial alleviation of racism and moves toward gender equity come with the increasing inequality. Economic elites often define freedom as the prerogative to treat others badly, and the increasing inequality and economic insecurity in America has largely so define 'freedom', at least in economic terms. Let us also remember that people who got ahead in our system if not white males generally did so through their own hard work, self-development, and often great personal sacrifice.  Our economic elites demand great sacrifice with themselves as the recipients of the boon coming from such. Again, when "freedom" means the right to treat others badly, then such is travesty. It is easy to see that a revolution can see the removal of such people from their power as the sole means of getting freedom for themselves.

Quote:As far as climate change, that's pretty much here to stay. We're fortunate that we've been transitioning and becoming more efficient and paying more attention to the environment for many decades.

So we aren't wasting as much energy as we used to. Vehicles are more efficient, and more people are using public transit (which really is efficient). We don't have the idea that the Soviet Union had that energy is effectively a free good because it requires little labor to produce and can substitute for labor, and built energy-devouring plants that wasted energy in producing things. Energy dropped dramatically as the Soviet bloc started to conserve energy in the 1990's. 

On the other hand, global warming will compel people to use more energy in cooling their buildings... and with the cooling of buildings will come the ironic result of more waste heat. There will be waste heat that itself becomes a positive feedback to energy use and consumption because the waste heat will itself warm the environment and cause people to use more energy. The waste heat will appear whether the energy used in air conditioning (as Minneapolis becomes like St. Louis in the summer, as Detroit becomes like Little Rock in the summer, as Dallas becomes like Karachi in the summer) comes from fossil fuels or from solar power. A warmer climate pattern means that more polar ice will melt and cause the rise of the sea level to inundate much of the world's most productive farmlands (and that ironically includes places now heavily populated with very poor people. Seasonal changes will change agricultural patterns, and not to the better. We will have the chance for a traumatic disruption of the world's food supply... our economic systems are all finely tuned to a narrow range of agronomic realities. Without that reality, social orders can implode in wars and revolutions.   

Farmers in the Dakotas, Nebraska, Iowa, and Minnesota need blizzards to protect the soil moisture. 

Quote:We aren't perfect but we aren't that bad for a super power. We could be still like China and Russia and India today. There's your problems dude. It's not us. We understand that we can't crush American economies as a means to address environmental issues related to other countries that Limousine Liberals lack the balls to address at this time. The Limousine's have to much time and money invested and are making to much money off their relationship with them to do anything about them now.

We are also approaching the end of the era in which we can produce our way into ever-greater prosperity. More people have the problem of excess of stuff than of gross need. Just look at the growth in the use of storage sheds.  Basically if you are putting stuff into storage and it is not for ultimate resale, then you have too much stuff.  We are also approaching the Singularity in which machine intelligence becomes more powerful than the human mind.  That is technological advancement, but even that will require some adjustments.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#29
...and just today (January 6, 2020) a riotous mob takes over the Capitol Building to disrupt the formal count of the electoral vote.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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