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(Had the idea during a PM conversation with @taramarie.)
As we know, people have characters typical for their generation not because of astrological influence, but because of the events that shaped them.
I'm thinking especially of the recessive Archetypes: Nomads and Artists.
Nomads are shaped by their messy, unprotected childhood and adults who are too incompetent to handle big events (or even not that big events).
Artists are shaped by overprotective parents, esp. mothers because the fathers are absent.
Maybe that's typical in the Anglosphere, but in continental Europe, there are exceptions because of the war.
That's why we have a Silent ("War-children") generation that was a typical Artist generation because their numbers are small, they were stuck between elder Heroes and younger "Prophets" - but in their childhood, they went through a big mess, like Nomads.
OTOH, not only there many people from Generation X grew up with single mothers, so while they're still stuck between elder "Prophets" and younger Heroes, they may be more artistically inclined and neurotic as usual for Nomads, and more like Artists in that regard.
We really should try to sort this out - find out which part of their characters was caused by their influences that made them Nomad- or Artist-like.
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(11-08-2019, 09:14 AM)Hintergrund Wrote: (Had the idea during a PM conversation with @taramarie.)
As we know, people have characters typical for their generation not because of astrological influence, but because of the events that shaped them.
I'm thinking especially of the recessive Archetypes: Nomads and Artists.
Nomads are shaped by their messy, unprotected childhood and adults who are too incompetent to handle big events (or even not that big events).
Artists are shaped by overprotective parents, esp. mothers because the fathers are absent.
Maybe that's typical in the Anglosphere, but in continental Europe, there are exceptions because of the war.
That's why we have a Silent ("War-children") generation that was a typical Artist generation because their numbers are small, they were stuck between elder Heroes and younger "Prophets" - but in their childhood, they went through a big mess, like Nomads.
OTOH, not only there many people from Generation X grew up with single mothers, so while they're still stuck between elder "Prophets" and younger Heroes, they may be more artistically inclined and neurotic as usual for Nomads, and more like Artists in that regard.
We really should try to sort this out - find out which part of their characters was caused by their influences that made them Nomad- or Artist-like.
I see nothing at all to indicate that Gen X is "artistic" in the literal sense. Their music and their musical choices are, for the major part, total trash. But artists in the sense of adaptive and sensitive, and having a love for people? Artists because given to compromise, and their inheritance of positions in society? Gen X does not fit that set of criteria either. Gen X is probably more nomadic than usual because of the trend toward single mothers.
Meanwhile Gen Z does not yet have absent fathers. If that comes, it will happen after 2025 if there's a war then (if there's a major USA war, either civil or foreign or both, that's when it will happen), and the first prophets will already be being born, as in 1943-45, but some of the later/younger Gen Z children at that time will have absent fathers for a few years. But that will be a small group within the generation.
Astrology works, of course, in this regard, but the generation cycle can trump it (to coin a phrase). Those Gen Xers born in the sixties should have had some of that inspirational planetary conjunction of the sixties affecting their make-up and talent, but the Xer generational trends toward cynicism and pragmatism seemed to have blunted any trace of its influence in their charts. But perhaps some millennials born around 1990-1993 could have some aspects of genius in their make-up.
More generally, there was a tendency in some modern generations for prophets in America to be born under Uranus in self-directed and inward-turning signs Gemini through Leo, and civics to be born under Uranus in more collective-oriented signs Sagittarius through Aquarius. Even William Strauss, who didn't believe in astrology, was pleased to see that I associated the sign Aquarius with civics. Uranus is now in early Taurus, a position it occupies when artist generations are born.
But this timing only applied to the anglo-american saeculum, and probably to the western european saeculum, since they were somewhat in synch, but probably it did not apply to other nations and cultures. The correspondence to the saeculum was made, as I have pointed out here for 22 years, because the orbit of Uranus is 84 years long, which is exactly the length of a saeculum as defined in The Fourth Turning. As astrologers long noticed, the great 4th turning crisis climaxes coincided to Uranus' Return about every 84 years to its position at its two crisis birth moments: the founding of Jamestown and the Declaration of Independence. But other nations have birth moments at other times, and thus Uranus returns and thus 4Ts in different years.
The times people live in affect this correlation, however. Before the enlightenment era in the 18th century, the saeculum was at least 100 years long, according to the Generations/T4T authors. The term came from those in ancient Rome who noticed the 100-year cycle back then. So the Uranus correlation didn't apply. This is likely because, although its influence was there in a subconscious way, Uranus wasn't really a major or fully-realized factor in human affairs until just before it was discovered in 1781. And a rush of big changes which began the modern era accompanied and immediately followed its discovery that year. So Uranus represents the modern-era saeculum. Uranus in astrology has been found to represent democracy, revolution, invention, electricity, etc.. This is also because its cycle is the length of a normal human life, which fact provides the nature of both the saeculum (according to S&H) and the planet (according to astrology theorist Dane Rudhyar). And the two other outer planets Neptune and Pluto move in tandem with Uranus, providing a double and triple rhythm.
The other factor is the world wars and global technology and commerce, which have made nation states and their supposed cultures obsolete. We are a global society now, and the anglo-american seaculum has become the norm everywhere because of its supreme influence since the world wars. So I think the saeculum has now settled into the modern 84-year length according to the basic astrological pattern-- except that it may only coincide in its interpretation to the prophets and civics, while the nomads and artists are born at times corresponding to signs opposite to their nature.
Which is interesting, considering Hintergrund's question.
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I have read many works of so-called "Prophets". Unless you share their faith, what they write is just pompous and pathetic. But for those of you who understood S&H, that's nothing new. Better give me the so-called "trash culture" of us Nomads.
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(11-11-2019, 06:09 AM)taramarie Wrote: (11-11-2019, 05:50 AM)Hintergrund Wrote: I have read many works of so-called "Prophets". Unless you share their faith, what they write is just pompous and pathetic. But for those of you who understood S&H, that's nothing new. Better give me the so-called "trash culture" of us Nomads.
Eric actually blocked me partly because of my defence of xer music because I think every music genre has its place, and he said if it were up to him he would get rid of it. Dictator sounding to me to be honest. Unfortunately he thinks his taste in music is the right type and openly condemns anything he doesn't like. His freedom to do so, but my freedom to say he's being intolerant. May be very millennial in stereotype for me to say it but I despise not being inclusive or at least, tolerant. As he didn't want to hear it and other things he said himself which were pretty messed up, I was blocked by him. Part of the reason was for defending you guys and your music which I grew up with and have fond memories of. Eric seems to have a superiority complex regarding some things and the "I told you so" attitude.
Yeah, he's a textbook "Prophet": Wants to tell other people what to do, into mumbo-jumbo, moralistic, narcissist, probably spoiled too. He's lacking very much re: wisdom, but so do most Boomers.
He hasn't blocked me yet, but I did it to him.
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Whenever I say "Boomers have no wisdom", S&H and some other Boomer folks are excepted. All of those who manage to be self-critical.
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(11-11-2019, 07:02 AM)taramarie Wrote: (11-11-2019, 06:41 AM)Hintergrund Wrote: Whenever I say "Boomers have no wisdom", S&H and some other Boomer folks are excepted. All of those who manage to be self-critical.
I see. The close mindedness to new info which some tend to have. Which to be honest is a trait many have regardless of generation. But yes ive noticed the preachiness toward a certain belief being more evident in my parents generation than xers. Just from experience that is.
Same thing with me. Although here in Europe the border between Silents "children of the war" and the post-war Boomers is more fuzzy. Sometimes it's really hard to tell. And it seems like the whole Cycle was shifted, maybe up to five years.
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Yes... in the past I believed that Boomers were to blame for un-parenting like that, but it seems we'd better blame the Silents. Same with other deviancies.
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(11-08-2019, 12:36 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (11-08-2019, 09:14 AM)Hintergrund Wrote: (Had the idea during a PM conversation with @taramarie.)
As we know, people have characters typical for their generation not because of astrological influence, but because of the events that shaped them.
I'm thinking especially of the recessive Archetypes: Nomads and Artists.
Nomads are shaped by their messy, unprotected childhood and adults who are too incompetent to handle big events (or even not that big events).
Artists are shaped by overprotective parents, esp. mothers because the fathers are absent.
Maybe that's typical in the Anglosphere, but in continental Europe, there are exceptions because of the war.
That's why we have a Silent ("War-children") generation that was a typical Artist generation because their numbers are small, they were stuck between elder Heroes and younger "Prophets" - but in their childhood, they went through a big mess, like Nomads.
OTOH, not only there many people from Generation X grew up with single mothers, so while they're still stuck between elder "Prophets" and younger Heroes, they may be more artistically inclined and neurotic as usual for Nomads, and more like Artists in that regard.
We really should try to sort this out - find out which part of their characters was caused by their influences that made them Nomad- or Artist-like.
I see nothing at all to indicate that Gen X is "artistic" in the literal sense. Their music and their musical choices are, for the major part, total trash. But artists in the sense of adaptive and sensitive, and having a love for people? Artists because given to compromise, and their inheritance of positions in society? Gen X does not fit that set of criteria either. Gen X is probably more nomadic than usual because of the trend toward single mothers.
Meanwhile Gen Z does not yet have absent fathers. If that comes, it will happen after 2025 if there's a war then (if there's a major USA war, either civil or foreign or both, that's when it will happen), and the first prophets will already be being born, as in 1943-45, but some of the later/younger Gen Z children at that time will have absent fathers for a few years. But that will be a small group within the generation.
Astrology works, of course, in this regard, but the generation cycle can trump it (to coin a phrase). Those Gen Xers born in the sixties should have had some of that inspirational planetary conjunction of the sixties affecting their make-up and talent, but the Xer generational trends toward cynicism and pragmatism seemed to have blunted any trace of its influence in their charts. But perhaps some millennials born around 1990-1993 could have some aspects of genius in their make-up.
More generally, there was a tendency in some modern generations for prophets in America to be born under Uranus in self-directed and inward-turning signs Gemini through Leo, and civics to be born under Uranus in more collective-oriented signs Sagittarius through Aquarius. Even William Strauss, who didn't believe in astrology, was pleased to see that I associated the sign Aquarius with civics. Uranus is now in early Taurus, a position it occupies when artist generations are born.
But this timing only applied to the anglo-american saeculum, and probably to the western european saeculum, since they were somewhat in synch, but probably it did not apply to other nations and cultures. The correspondence to the saeculum was made, as I have pointed out here for 22 years, because the orbit of Uranus is 84 years long, which is exactly the length of a saeculum as defined in The Fourth Turning. As astrologers long noticed, the great 4th turning crisis climaxes coincided to Uranus' Return about every 84 years to its position at its two crisis birth moments: the founding of Jamestown and the Declaration of Independence. But other nations have birth moments at other times, and thus Uranus returns and thus 4Ts in different years.
The times people live in affect this correlation, however. Before the enlightenment era in the 18th century, the saeculum was at least 100 years long, according to the Generations/T4T authors. The term came from those in ancient Rome who noticed the 100-year cycle back then. So the Uranus correlation didn't apply. This is likely because, although its influence was there in a subconscious way, Uranus wasn't really a major or fully-realized factor in human affairs until just before it was discovered in 1781. And a rush of big changes which began the modern era accompanied and immediately followed its discovery that year. So Uranus represents the modern-era saeculum. Uranus in astrology has been found to represent democracy, revolution, invention, electricity, etc.. This is also because its cycle is the length of a normal human life, which fact provides the nature of both the saeculum (according to S&H) and the planet (according to astrology theorist Dane Rudhyar). And the two other outer planets Neptune and Pluto move in tandem with Uranus, providing a double and triple rhythm.
The other factor is the world wars and global technology and commerce, which have made nation states and their supposed cultures obsolete. We are a global society now, and the anglo-american seaculum has become the norm everywhere because of its supreme influence since the world wars. So I think the saeculum has now settled into the modern 84-year length according to the basic astrological pattern-- except that it may only coincide in its interpretation to the prophets and civics, while the nomads and artists are born at times corresponding to signs opposite to their nature.
Which is interesting, considering Hintergrund's question.
I think that a saeculum in ancient Rome was closer to 110 years, not 100.
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(11-11-2019, 05:50 AM)Hintergrund Wrote: I have read many works of so-called "Prophets". Unless you share their faith, what they write is just pompous and pathetic. But for those of you who understood S&H, that's nothing new.
Have you read some Missionary authors as well?
Quote:Whenever I say "Boomers have no wisdom", S&H and some other Boomer folks are excepted. All of those who manage to be self-critical.
Well said, mate.
Quote:Better give me the so-called "trash culture" of us Nomads.
Oversexualized, but I still enjoyed the view.
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(11-24-2019, 06:17 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: (11-11-2019, 05:50 AM)Hintergrund Wrote: I have read many works of so-called "Prophets". Unless you share their faith, what they write is just pompous and pathetic. But for those of you who understood S&H, that's nothing new.
Have you read some Missionary authors as well?
Several. And I have to say: They CAN get preachy. Kipling about the "White man's Burden", H.G. Wells when he stopped writing good fiction and only thought about the message, Upton Sinclair... "Prophet" writers seem to be good only if they don't speak about politics & religion. As in a good American custom.
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I haven't participated in this forum in ages and am a little embarrassed by some of the more "provocative" comments I posted on here a few years back. In any case, speaking as a Millie myself, regarding the supposedly "worthless" culture of Gen X-ers, I think they're arguably superior to the Prophets just preceding them in terms of artistic output. Most of the 'culture' associated with Boomers was mostly created by Silents anyway. For instance, the best Baby Boomer film directors, at least in the US, are either cuspers like Scorsese and Malick or very atypical of their generation like David Lynch, who's not a 'typical Boomer' at all. Maybe it's a different scenario with the European boomer filmmakers like Almodovar and Fassbinder, for instance. I'm not sure.
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(01-12-2020, 12:22 PM)Remy Renault Wrote: I haven't participated in this forum in ages and am a little embarrassed by some of the more "provocative" comments I posted on here a few years back. In any case, speaking as a Millie myself, regarding the supposedly "worthless" culture of Gen X-ers, I think they're arguably superior to the Prophets just preceding them in terms of artistic output. Most of the 'culture' associated with Boomers was mostly created by Silents anyway. For instance, the best Baby Boomer film directors, at least in the US, are either cuspers like Scorsese and Malick or very atypical of their generation like David Lynch, who's not a 'typical Boomer' at all. Maybe it's a different scenario with the European boomer filmmakers like Almodovar and Fassbinder, for instance. I'm not sure.
Artistic achievement is a poor yardstick to measure Prophets and Nomads. I agree that the most recent artistic fire was a gift from the Silents, but both Boomers and Xers have contributed heavily … more to music than film, to be honest about it.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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I know this is a bit "off-topic" - but I have an older brother (1955 cohort) who was a Boomer through and through growing up. He smoked pot, and got into epic battles with his (and my), 1930-cohort, Korean War-era veteran father over things like hair length and clothing styles.
Me? I never cared for any of those things - and where my brother was way into acid rock and progressive rock, I was way into AM rock at first, later disco, and new wave after that.
Our 3-year age difference might as well have been a 30-year age difference. That is why I am so adamant about my not being a Boomer.
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(01-18-2020, 09:02 AM)Anthony 58 Wrote: I know this is a bit "off-topic" - but I have an older brother (1955 cohort) who was a Boomer through and through growing up. He smoked pot, and got into epic battles with his (and my), 1930-cohort, Korean War-era veteran father over things like hair length and clothing styles.
Me? I never cared for any of those things - and where my brother was way into acid rock and progressive rock, I was way into AM rock at first, later disco, and new wave after that.
Our 3-year age difference might as well have been a 30-year age difference. That is why I am so adamant about my not being a Boomer.
But this is where it gets tricky. What about someone born in 1955 that was similar to you? Would they not be a Boomer because they don't meet stereotypes? What about someone born in 1960 who was like your brother in personality and interests? Would they be a Boomer or not?
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(01-18-2020, 09:15 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (01-18-2020, 09:02 AM)Anthony Wrote: I know this is a bit "off-topic" - but I have an older brother (1955 cohort) who was a Boomer through and through growing up. He smoked pot, and got into epic battles with his (and my), 1930-cohort, Korean War-era veteran father over things like hair length and clothing styles.
Me? I never cared for any of those things - and where my brother was way into acid rock and progressive rock, I was way into AM rock at first, later disco, and new wave after that.
Our 3-year age difference might as well have been a 30-year age difference. That is why I am so adamant about my not being a Boomer.
But this is where it gets tricky. What about someone born in 1955 that was similar to you? Would they not be a Boomer because they don't meet stereotypes? What about someone born in 1960 who was like your brother in personality and interests? Would they be a Boomer or not?
I've also met tons of people born in 1956 and 1957. Never got along with any of them.
"These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation" - Justice David Brewer, Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892
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01-18-2020, 10:06 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2020, 10:25 AM by AspieMillennial.)
(01-18-2020, 10:01 AM)Anthony 58 Wrote: (01-18-2020, 09:15 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (01-18-2020, 09:02 AM)Anthony Wrote: I know this is a bit "off-topic" - but I have an older brother (1955 cohort) who was a Boomer through and through growing up. He smoked pot, and got into epic battles with his (and my), 1930-cohort, Korean War-era veteran father over things like hair length and clothing styles.
Me? I never cared for any of those things - and where my brother was way into acid rock and progressive rock, I was way into AM rock at first, later disco, and new wave after that.
Our 3-year age difference might as well have been a 30-year age difference. That is why I am so adamant about my not being a Boomer.
But this is where it gets tricky. What about someone born in 1955 that was similar to you? Would they not be a Boomer because they don't meet stereotypes? What about someone born in 1960 who was like your brother in personality and interests? Would they be a Boomer or not?
I've also met tons of people born in 1956 and 1957. Never got along with any of them.
Well how would you explain someone younger than you that gets along with them very well then? Like a 1962 born in the USA.
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01-18-2020, 02:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2020, 02:43 PM by Eric the Green.)
(01-18-2020, 10:06 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (01-18-2020, 10:01 AM)Anthony Wrote: (01-18-2020, 09:15 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (01-18-2020, 09:02 AM)Anthony Wrote: I know this is a bit "off-topic" - but I have an older brother (1955 cohort) who was a Boomer through and through growing up. He smoked pot, and got into epic battles with his (and my), 1930-cohort, Korean War-era veteran father over things like hair length and clothing styles.
Me? I never cared for any of those things - and where my brother was way into acid rock and progressive rock, I was way into AM rock at first, later disco, and new wave after that.
Our 3-year age difference might as well have been a 30-year age difference. That is why I am so adamant about my not being a Boomer.
But this is where it gets tricky. What about someone born in 1955 that was similar to you? Would they not be a Boomer because they don't meet stereotypes? What about someone born in 1960 who was like your brother in personality and interests? Would they be a Boomer or not?
I've also met tons of people born in 1956 and 1957. Never got along with any of them.
Well how would you explain someone younger than you that gets along with them very well then? Like a 1962 born in the USA.
You can't define a generation based only on yourself and a few people you know. This is a big study and requires biographies and statistics.
But there are sub-generations and cusps which the S&H books don't cover. The Jones Boomers are more conservative than core Boomers. I think the Jones "youngest boomers" start in around 1957-58. The Jones Xers are also somewhat boomer-like; those born in 1961 (which I think are often still boomers) through 1963.
See my classification here:
http://philosopherswheel.com/generations.htm
Note however, I now group 1962 with the Xers, but as I said, I think some 1961 cohorts are Jones boomers.
And note that not all individuals fit into the general generation type they are from.
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