Report Card for Donald Trump

[pbrower2a]

(12-23-2016, 08:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Studies that I have heard of say that higher minimum wages increase jobs, because when people are paid better, they buy more and thus create jobs for the businesses.

But the ideologues of the Right typically believe in ultra-cheap labor sweated brutally as the key to creating wealth -- their wealth,m the only wealth that matters. So it was with feudal lords, slave-owning planters, and workhouse 'governors'.

Economic modernity began when capitalists recognized that their employees needed incentives to not goldbrick, to become more sympathetic to customers, to be receptive to technological innovation, and to have more of a stake in quality.

Businesses need to put more emphasis on marketing -- getting people to like what it offered -- than upon producing stuff for which Americans are already sated.

[pbrower2a]

(12-22-2016, 07:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Yes, Donald Trump is real good for working folks. Yeah, right.

Fast food is the definitive sweat shop operation. The idea that anyone can get more 'stature' by working longer and harder for less is as absurd as the idea that one can become sober by drinking more booze. What? Are we to be proud that we are to be exploited more harshly on behalf of people who get to live like sultans?

Does Donald Trump have any human virtue?

[pbrower2a]

(12-22-2016, 08:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump is the destroyer of education. Our new "education" secretary:



As George Carlin says, the oligarchs who rule us don't want an educated public. It's not in their interests. That's why their man, Trump, wants to shut it down.

Just remember the delightful statement by Donald Trump : "I love under-educated voters!"

White, under-educated voters, of course. People either unable or unwilling to 'read between the lines'. I have said frequently enough what the Romans made of the ability to 'read between the lines'. Voting for Donald Trump is 'dumb' voting, as he stands for 'dumb' politics -- government strictly as the enforcer of the will of economic elites who see the common man as livestock at best and vermin at worst.

Under-educated people are perfect for work on plantations and in sweatshops. I hope that plantations and sweatshops are not the idea of 'American Greatness' that Donald Trump believes in. Under-educated people are also the people most amenable to totalitarian politics as shown under Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Saddam, Assad, the Kim dynasty, and Daesh... and Jim Crow.

But let us consider something else about education: school teachers constitute one of the largest constituencies in America as one of the largest occupational groups. In many communities, school districts are the biggest employers. Teachers are a big part of the American middle class, and it is hardly surprising that someone hostile to the educated middle class is hostile to education.

[Warren Dew]

(12-23-2016, 08:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Studies that I have heard of say that higher minimum wages increase jobs, because when people are paid better, they buy more and thus create jobs for the businesses.

Higher minimum wages don't cause people to be paid better, though; they just cause people at the low end of the wage spectrum to be put out of work.

[Ragnarök_62]

(12-24-2016, 09:42 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Higher minimum wages don't cause people to be paid better, though; they just cause people at the low end of the wage spectrum to be put out of work.

But, but, who in their right mind wants to work for a penny/hour?  We're in a Neo Gilded age and since there are no large labor unions, that's what sort of stuff will happen.  The real problem is there is no such thing as equal economic power between an individual and Corporate America.  .... Well, I suppose we can supplement our meager wages with massive five finger discounts.

[Ragnarök_62]

(12-24-2016, 09:57 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Fast food is the definitive sweat shop operation. The idea that anyone can get more 'stature' by working longer and harder for less is as absurd as the idea that one can become sober by drinking more booze. What? Are we to be proud that we are to be exploited more harshly on behalf of people who get to live like sultans?

Does Donald Trump have any human virtue?

You have the answer buried there.  Life of course sux big time workin' jobs like fast foodie stuff. The answer is, sorta as you say is to take a ride on ethanol because it *(numbs / gets you sky high) regardless of how things really are.

*The effect of ethanol varies depending on the person. Some folks get sky high on the stuff, others get numbed, while lot's of *Asians get alcohol flush syndrome.  Russians showed the way by getting smashed out of minds due to crappy living conditions.

* eherensuge.blogspot.com/2010/01/eas

[Warren Dew]

(12-24-2016, 10:30 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(12-24-2016, 09:42 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Higher minimum wages don't cause people to be paid better, though; they just cause people at the low end of the wage spectrum to be put out of work.

But, but, who in their right mind wants to work for a penny/hour?  We're in a Neo Gilded age and since there are no large labor unions, that's what sort of stuff will happen.  The real problem is there is no such thing as equal economic power between an individual and Corporate America.  .... Well, I suppose we can supplement our meager wages with massive five finger discounts.

If Trump and Ryan do what they promised and institute mandatory e-verify, wages will rise at the low end of the wage spectrum well above the mandatory minimum.  People will still be put out of work, but it will only be the illegal aliens, and they will likely return to their home countries.

[SomeGuy]

(12-23-2016, 07:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-23-2016, 10:34 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: Wait, you saw that I am NOT looking for WWIII and you thought CynicHero?  Dumb!

I remember now; Jordan Goodspeed.

You did seem more reasonable and thoughful than I remember, as if you actually thought Trump could do some constructive things. Most Trump voters don't want that. Of course, I think you'll be disappointed if you do.

That's the one, Eric.  Good job!

I figured the birthdate would do the trick, given time.  I know you had run a chart on me, at least once.

Yes, I choose to hold out hope that Trump would do some of the things he promised on the campaign trail, as most presidents manage to do, because I think some of those things could do a bit of good.  I also think this without regard to whether or not I think he is a particularly nice person, which I don't really feel is relevant.

Whether he will do them or not, how they are implemented, what other things he ends up doing, in short, how his presidency turns out, remains to be seen.

As for my reasonableness and thoughtfulness more generally, why, I don't think I was ever so bad in that regard as you may remember.  I will allow that the last year has been reasonably good to me, improving my mood, and that I am consciously choosing to avoid discussions here that would tend to draw forth more heat than light on my end, as it were.

[pbrower2a]

(12-24-2016, 10:37 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(12-24-2016, 09:57 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Fast food is the definitive sweat shop operation. The idea that anyone can get more 'stature' by working longer and harder for less is as absurd as the idea that one can become sober by drinking more booze. What? Are we to be proud that we are to be exploited more harshly on behalf of people who get to live like sultans?

Does Donald Trump have any human virtue?

You have the answer buried there.  Life of course sux big time workin' jobs like fast foodie stuff. The answer is, sorta as you say is to take a ride on ethanol because it *(numbs / gets you sky high) regardless of how things really are.

*The effect of ethanol varies depending on the person. Some folks get sky high on the stuff, others get numbed, while lot's of *Asians get alcohol flush syndrome.  Russians showed the way by getting smashed out of minds due to crappy living conditions.

* eherensuge.blogspot.com/2010/01/eas

In my case a small amount stifles the crippling anxiety that goes with Asperger's... any more hits me the wrong way and is unpleasant. I trust alcohol, whose properties are well known, far more than I trust psychotropic medicines. I had a chance to go on Prozac.... I think a little alcohol is safer and less capricious. I wouldn't want to get drunk.

[Eric the Green]

(12-25-2016, 01:18 AM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(12-23-2016, 07:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-23-2016, 10:34 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: Wait, you saw that I am NOT looking for WWIII and you thought CynicHero?  Dumb!

I remember now; Jordan Goodspeed.

You did seem more reasonable and thoughful than I remember, as if you actually thought Trump could do some constructive things. Most Trump voters don't want that. Of course, I think you'll be disappointed if you do.

That's the one, Eric.  Good job!

I figured the birthdate would do the trick, given time.  I know you had run a chart on me, at least once.

Yes, I choose to hold out hope that Trump would do some of the things he promised on the campaign trail, as most presidents manage to do, because I think some of those things could do a bit of good.  I also think this without regard to whether or not I think he is a particularly nice person, which I don't really feel is relevant.

Whether he will do them or not, how they are implemented, what other things he ends up doing, in short, how his presidency turns out, remains to be seen.

As for my reasonableness and thoughtfulness more generally, why, I don't think I was ever so bad in that regard as you may remember.  I will allow that the last year has been reasonably good to me, improving my mood, and that I am consciously choosing to avoid discussions here that would tend to draw forth more heat than light on my end, as it were.

OK, good luck with that. The birth sign and birth year (generation) did help jog my memory. (and of course, the basic notion of a maverick conservative with a temper, who is not well-disposed toward Eric)

[Eric the Green]

(12-24-2016, 10:30 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(12-24-2016, 09:42 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Higher minimum wages don't cause people to be paid better, though; they just cause people at the low end of the wage spectrum to be put out of work.

But, but, who in their right mind wants to work for a penny/hour?  We're in a Neo Gilded age and since there are no large labor unions, that's what sort of stuff will happen.  The real problem is there is no such thing as equal economic power between an individual and Corporate America.  .... Well, I suppose we can supplement our meager wages with massive five finger discounts.

Warren's view on minimum wages is based simply on libertarian ideology, and not fact. 90% of the reason why wages and salaries are so low now for most people, is precisely because too many people have believed this ideology for 37 years and counting. (I have been counting the years of its predominance for 20 years now, right here. Unfortunately I just keep on counting the years. It's like counting sheep, while waiting for the people to wake up.)

Ideas have effects, and wrong ideas have bad effects. Libertarian economics is the wrong idea, and if we want to "make America great again," we will ditch Trump and his Party as soon as we can, and dump this ridiculous, false ideology along with him.

[TnT]

(12-23-2016, 08:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Studies that I have heard of say that higher minimum wages increase jobs, because when people are paid better, they buy more and thus create jobs for the businesses.

The problem arises in the difference between macro-economics and micro.  Sure, at the macro level, macro demand "trickles down" to individual businesses, creating more demand, maybe, if the particular business has something to sell that is aligned with the larger economy.

The trouble is, in an individual business, paying out more money for the same amount of revenue in the short term simply brings pressure on the business.  If the business is doing very well, it may have enough slack to watch its higher-paid wages to come circling back in the form of higher demand, someday.  If it's a struggling business, not.

Forcing business, expecially small to medium sized business to pay out more is likely not the best answer.  The better answer is to drive demand into the system using the government as employer of last resort, and as a stimulus supplier.  This works better ... drive up demand for all goods and services, which in turn drives up revenues for business which drives up demand for labor which finally and most best ... drives up wages.

Simply, and only, increasing wages is the same thing from the labor side as supply side is to the business side.  Demand is what finally drives the system.  And stimulating demand is the best solution.

[SomeGuy]

TNT,

Wage subsidies (which could go just as easily to non-profits or the like) would probably accomplish much the same effect with far fewer distortions in the economy.  Which is not that I am necessarily opposed to public works and the like, per se, just observing that make-work, particularly on such a grand scale, may come with its own problems.

[Eric the Green]

(12-25-2016, 06:21 PM)TnT Wrote:

(12-23-2016, 08:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Studies that I have heard of say that higher minimum wages increase jobs, because when people are paid better, they buy more and thus create jobs for the businesses.

The problem arises in the difference between macro-economics and micro.  Sure, at the macro level, macro demand "trickles down" to individual businesses, creating more demand, maybe, if the particular business has something to sell that is aligned with the larger economy.

The trouble is, in an individual business, paying out more money for the same amount of revenue in the short term simply brings pressure on the business.  If the business is doing very well, it may have enough slack to watch its higher-paid wages to come circling back in the form of higher demand, someday.  If it's a struggling business, not.

Forcing business, expecially small to medium sized business to pay out more is likely not the best answer.  The better answer is to drive demand into the system using the government as employer of last resort, and as a stimulus supplier.  This works better ... drive up demand for all goods and services, which in turn drives up revenues for business which drives up demand for labor which finally and most best ... drives up wages.

Simply, and only, increasing wages is the same thing from the labor side as supply side is to the business side.  Demand is what finally drives the system.  And stimulating demand is the best solution.

It's got to be both. You're probably right that imposing higher wages on struggling small business by itself would hurt business unless there is also government employment and stimulus. With both together, both will work, and that has always been the Democratic Party platform. 

There is no justification for any business not to pay a living wage for work. The minimum wage, accounting for inflation, is nowhere near what it used to be. And this brings all wages down. The minimum wage raises are a necessity. I think you have seen a possible problem with them though in the short term, because minimum wages can be and are being raised on a local and state level, whereas national stimulus is not going to happen.

The problem of course is that the voters are not smart; they fall for a liar like Trump, and liars like the Republicans, so these solutions have to wait unless and until the voters wise up. These solutions will not be possible again until sometime in the 2020s.

I'm looking at 2022 as an especially good year for the Democrats, whether Trump is still in office or not. If Republicans are re-elected to the White House in 2020, then 2022 is the 6th year of the term, which always benefits the opposing party. In this case, progressive winds will also be blowing.

The question is what happens in 2020, and I'm not ready to make any kind of prediction yet about the White House. But if Trump is re-elected, or there is a GOP successor elected, the Democrats could still make a lot of gains in congress that year.

[Odin]

(12-24-2016, 09:42 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(12-23-2016, 08:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Studies that I have heard of say that higher minimum wages increase jobs, because when people are paid better, they buy more and thus create jobs for the businesses.

Higher minimum wages don't cause people to be paid better, though; they just cause people at the low end of the wage spectrum to be put out of work.

But if the wages are too low the person will need government assistance to survive, anyway, which means that the government is essentially subsidizing the business. If you have to pay your workers so little that they can't survive without welfare then YOU are the one mooching off the taxpayer's dime and should not be in business.

Funny how all you right wingers have no problem when so-called "job-creators" are the "moochers".

[pbrower2a]

(12-26-2016, 09:35 AM)Odin Wrote:

(12-24-2016, 09:42 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(12-23-2016, 08:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Studies that I have heard of say that higher minimum wages increase jobs, because when people are paid better, they buy more and thus create jobs for the businesses.

Higher minimum wages don't cause people to be paid better, though; they just cause people at the low end of the wage spectrum to be put out of work.

But if the wages are too low the person will need government assistance to survive, anyway, which means that the government is essentially subsidizing the business. If you have to pay your workers so little that they can't survive without welfare then YOU are the one mooching off the taxpayer's dime and should not be in business.

Funny how all you right wingers have no problem when so-called "job-creators" are the "moochers".

Subsidizing people with partial handicaps is legitimate welfare. Persons who lack the stamina to work a normal workday might as well get a federal subsidy. It might be a reasonable policy to start people as part-time employees before working them full time... maybe for a couple of weeks. There are loose ends in life for any new hire, like lining up childcare and meeting existing medical and dental appointments.

Poverty of course is an  inappropriate perquisite of normal employment.

[Warren Dew]

(12-26-2016, 09:35 AM)Odin Wrote:

(12-24-2016, 09:42 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(12-23-2016, 08:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Studies that I have heard of say that higher minimum wages increase jobs, because when people are paid better, they buy more and thus create jobs for the businesses.

Higher minimum wages don't cause people to be paid better, though; they just cause people at the low end of the wage spectrum to be put out of work.

But if the wages are too low the person will need government assistance to survive, anyway, which means that the government is essentially subsidizing the business. If you have to pay your workers so little that they can't survive without welfare then YOU are the one mooching off the taxpayer's dime and should not be in business.

Funny how all you right wingers have no problem when so-called "job-creators" are the "moochers".

If you want to get rid of all the mooching by getting rid of government assistance and letting private charity help those who are really in need, I'm all for it.

[Eric the Green]

Let's also then get rid of all the mooching by the "job-creators" who are mooching off their employees, with salaries 300x more than their workers, and forcing them on welfare and food stamps, without any government assistance needed for them to accomplish that. And give the extra money they extort from all of us back to the people.

[Eric the Green]

Libertarians have the utopian idea that people are perfect and don't need a government or the law. And yet somehow, they don't trust their allegedly-perfect people to forge a law and a government that works better for all. And they think all these perfect people on welfare and food stamps are just moochers. And they trust their perfect corporate barons to treat people and the Earth with respect, and turn their heads and just can't see the truth that they rarely do.

Libertarian economics ideology is long-since bankrupt, and yet it is allowed to control our nation for 37 years and counting. WTF??? WTF????

[TnT]

(12-25-2016, 07:31 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: TNT,

Wage subsidies (which could go just as easily to non-profits or the like) would probably accomplish much the same effect with far fewer distortions in the economy.  Which is not that I am necessarily opposed to public works and the like, per se, just observing that make-work, particularly on such a grand scale, may come with its own problems.

"Make-work?"  I'm thinking that there's plenty of REAL work to be done with infrastructure.  The scale I'm thinking of would involve the rebuilding of classical infrastructure like bridges, highways, railroads, etc.

One can also re-define infrastructure in this day and age as enhancements to information technology, "green" technology, hell, education itself.

Our MMT ruminations on the generational theory sites suggests that grand scale would work just fine.  And in the process, folks who have fallen behind technologically and educationally, might have a shot at catching up.

I recently spent a weekend in Elkins, West Virginia.  My god, what a shithole is WV!  Seems to me there's plenty of work to be done there, and it's not "make-work."  One only wonders what might happen if, for example, we decided as a country to clean up WV and turn it into something resembling a Canadian province!