The Coronavirus

[Classic-Xer]

(05-02-2020, 04:38 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 04:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Hint: If the liberals keep playing games with numbers, people's lives and lively hoods, playing games with dates/deadlines and moving goal lines this is going end way worse and way more costly than World War II and financially wipe out every social program that followed in the process. I'm not concerned about America because America was built to succeed and survive.

Did the high of the 1950s much resemble the Gilded Age?  Does the crisis bring significant transformation?  Do you really think we will return to what we once were?

You should really read for comprehension the works of Strauss and Howe.

I get the jest of theory. I'm not much of a book reader these days. So, I'll have to pass on reading up and getting more familiar with the works of Strauss and Howe at this point. To be honest, the anomaly that skewed the generations pretty killed the credibility of S&H theory in my opinion. The 1950's had little to no resemblance of the gilded age. The world had changed/advanced significantly. My grandmother's and grandfather's were born when the use of horses and buggies and heavy manual labor to do most everything was still common.

I don't believe that we will return to the Gilded Age. We are far to advanced to return to the Gilded Age. We might have to part ways with some blue states who seem more likely to be heading that direction anyway but that's their problem. I'd say the combination of World War I, The Great Depression and World II significantly transformed most of Europe. So, I'd say that's what it would take to significantly transform the US at this point. I'm not sure what the last question pertains to? COVID19? Yes, I believe that we will eventually get back to the way we were before the COVID19 crisis.

[pbrower2a]

(05-02-2020, 10:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 04:38 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 04:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Hint: If the liberals keep playing games with numbers, people's lives and lively hoods, playing games with dates/deadlines and moving goal lines this is going end way worse and way more costly than World War II and financially wipe out every social program that followed in the process. I'm not concerned about America because America was built to succeed and survive.

Did the high of the 1950s much resemble the Gilded Age?  Does the crisis bring significant transformation?  Do you really think we will return to what we once were?

You should really read for comprehension the works of Strauss and Howe.

I get the jest of theory. I'm not much of a book reader these days. So, I'll have to pass on reading up and getting more familiar with the works of Strauss and Howe at this point. To be honest, the anomaly that skewed the generations pretty killed the credibility of S&H theory in my opinion. The 1950's had little to no resemblance of the gilded age. The world had changed/advanced significantly. My grandmother's and grandfather's were born when the use of horses and buggies and heavy manual labor to do most everything was still common.

Changing technology toes not repudiate the cycle. New technologies, if successful, seem to fit the culture of the time. Thus television in the 1T tended to promote cultural conformity as one would expect in a High. It was not going to challenge comfortable ideas. Likewise wars may be waged with different weapons, but all in all the American Revolution, the Civil War, and World War II show common threads of patterns of civil leadership and the enforcement of economic regimentation to fit the severity of war. COVID-19 is being treated as if a Crisis War in the sense that much economic and cultural activity is curtailed to constrain losses of life. 

So if heavy physical labor was the norm in the 1890's but not the 1970's, then both Awakening Eras have other parallels. An early Ford Mustang is as compatible with the most recent Awakening Era as a horse and buggy was in the previous one. Economic reality may have been very different eighty years apart, but visual art of the 1890's and of the 1970's show remarkable parallels.     

Quote:I don't believe that we will return to the Gilded Age. We are far to advanced to return to the Gilded Age. We might have to part ways with  some blue  states who seem more likely to be heading that direction anyway but that's their problem. I'd say the combination of World War I, The Great Depression and World II significantly transformed most of  Europe. So, I'd say that's what it would take to significantly transform the US at this point. I'm not sure what the last question pertains to? COVID19? Yes, I believe that we will eventually get back to the way we were before the COVID19 crisis.

We will leave the Crisis Era with certain shared experiences between the surviving generations. A consensus of values tends to coalesce toward the end of the Crisis. Basically people decide (if informally) to not do the same things that led to the Crisis. Cultural conservatives despise the celebrity circuses and not-family-friendly expressions of cultural vileness of the 3T. Liberals and conservatives alike want to prevent another speculative boom like the one that led to the the economic meltdown that transformed the 3T into a 4T. People have judged traitors harshly, and dissidence is suspect. But so is inequality that fosters dissidence. Conformity of thought requires something closer to conformity of economic results. Disparities in compensation between bosses and toilers that may have fostered resentments as well as real pain are reduced. A 1T is not time of social revolution.

3T tendencies do not return. An America in which a few industrialists, executives, and big landowners lord it over people who suffer extreme deprivations (including hunger and homelessness) on their behalf and in which the middle class is highly productive but damned to be debtors just to get the opportunity to do white-collar work does not return. 

It may be surprising that some Silent still have influence upon public life this late... think of Nancy Pelosi, Bernie Sanders, Mitch McConnell, and Joe Biden. But these are the last if them. Boomers or X will supplant them in public life. Those are extreme late-wave Silent. Culture? The biggest Silent contribution has been in comedy, and the surviving Silent comedians are retired or doing something else. When the timing goes they go to dramatic roles or take on administrative roles as producers. Example: the zany Chris Lloyd (Doctor Emmett Brown of the Back to the Future trilogy) produces the sitcom Modern Family.   

Boomers will fade away from economic and eventually cultural influence. The former is a good thing, as Boomer executives have seemed to be the Simon Legree types as executives. Preserve that, and one gets a proletarian revolution. X will not get away with the personality cults as executives. Many have found that the corporate world is not for them, and small business is the best expression of their talents. Small business does not need giant bureaucracies to keep workers overworked and underpaid. The Millennial Generation will follow the GI pattern of asserting the right to a living wage suited to a breadwinner and will not believe that corporate bureaucracies have a right to exploit the weaknesses of bargaining of their employees. (I have heard the argument against labor unions and against collective bargaining that holds that without collective bargaining employers can pay workers what they deserve. First of all, any employer can fire a substandard performer, and second, the exploitation of bargaining weaknesses creates inequality having nothing to do with performance). Millennial adults will prefer teamwork to lone-wolf activities. A bunch of Millennial adults will insist that in a mass employer that they get much the same pay. Note also that Millennial adults are starting to enter the age in which the first of their generation start achieving high elected offices, and voters in their generation will find an obvious constituency.

[pbrower2a]

Remember: stupidity is not a survival value.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-02-2020, 10:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I get the jest of theory. I'm not much of a book reader these days. So, I'll have to pass on reading up and getting more familiar with the works of Strauss and Howe at this point. To be honest, the anomaly that skewed the generations pretty killed the credibility of S&H theory in my opinion. The 1950's had little to no resemblance of the gilded age. The world had changed/advanced significantly. My grandmother's and grandfather's were born when the use of horses and buggies and heavy manual labor to do most everything was still common.

I don't believe that we will return to the Gilded Age. We are far to advanced to return to the Gilded Age. We might have to part ways with  some blue  states who seem more likely to be heading that direction anyway but that's their problem. I'd say the combination of World War I, The Great Depression and World II significantly transformed most of  Europe. So, I'd say that's what it would take to significantly transform the US at this point. I'm not sure what the last question pertains to? COVID19? Yes, I believe that we will eventually get back to the way we were before the COVID19 crisis.

Hmm.

The culture that was the 13 colonies has changed much over the years.  It has not changed steadily.  It goes in fits and starts.  The bulk of the change has occurred in the crisis.  It occurs not the full prophet - nomad - civic generation, but in the five or so years after the trigger and regeneracy when a profound challenge to the culture manifests.

That change is profound and permanent.  One of the predictions made in the S&H books is that the change is always greater than what is anticipated going in.  If you look at the difference between the unravelling culture and the following high, the difference is extreme.

There is no going back.

COVID 19 is a unique trigger.  It has generally been a big violent event marking the beginning of a crisis war, though there was the stock market crash.

Now I have always taken the warning that the change is always more profound than anticipated as a personal challenge.  I generally anticipate a larger change than even most progressives.  The way the game is played well is to anticipate big.  

If a conservative thinks linearly, that the culture will remain the same or will continue the trends of the unraveling, one can quietly snicker.  Change is coming.  One might have to be patient, but it is coming.  It is now here.

I missed.  I anticipated the blue progressive Democratic agenda so long debated.  I did not anticipate the Coronavirus.  Who could?  OK.  That is what we’ve got.  During the other three turnings (high, awakening, unravelling) and even the bulk of the crisis, things don’t change.  For one reason or another, the culture was stuck.  We are just entering the heart of the crisis.  The regeneracy should complete as the progressives take charge of the federal government.  After that, change, big time.  Again, permanent and profound.

Hanging around a T4T forum can be kind of tedious for a progressive. Sure, there is many a time when we are in the majority and dominate the conversation. But still, the culture is stuck. it just sits there. Nothing moves. The conservatives can just sit there and propose that what is should continue, and so mote it be.

For a few years we get to run amok. It might not be pretty, but things will change.

If you don't like it, well, most people don't like a crisis. Not to worry, the high is coming.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-03-2020, 01:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Remember: stupidity is not a survival value.

Nitpick.  My niece runs the shark museum on Cape Cod.  She gave me one of the museum T shirts.  It features a great white shark striking a rather aggressive pose with the caption ‘respect the locals’.

Not a lot of brains, the great whites, but they have survived on teeth for a long time essentially unchanged.

I do remember a great white stalking, sprinting then attacking with great ferocity... a buoy with a camera designed to look like a seal. Sucker.

But humans have taken a different path.  We ought to do better.

[David Horn]

(05-02-2020, 01:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Science takes time. Politicians take time. Bureaucratic establishments take time. Systems take time to adjust. While all that time is being taken, the entire money related  system is losing money hand over fist. The State of Minnesota is about 5 billion in the hole or short as far as TAX REVENUES with no end in sight as far as the virus goes right now.

Look, I'm going to write something really radical: money is fake. Nothing in society actually creates money except the Federal Reserve and that's just electronic transfers from out of the ether. The one and only function money serves in society: it's a transaction lubricant. It allows you, in the HVAC business, to buy groceries, rent a movie and pay for your kid's college, without having to set up a messy barter system. And savings? That's just a reserve for future spending.

Classic-Xer Wrote:We have a portion of the workforce out there working and interacting with people/customers and placing themselves at risk as we speak. In short, the shit ain't going away for years and the shit has most likely been around for longer than a month and a half. That's where we are at in my opinion. I think I probably already had it back in late December/early January. I'll let you know for sure whenever the tests that our governor and his team keeps telling us about as being here then telling us why it isn't here yet and then telling us it should be here in a week then extending it being here for another week or two and then extending it another month or so. The job of a doctor or nurse is to advise not dictate. The job of a scientist is to advise not dictate. The job of Democratic politician living of the wealth and success of an American based nation is to lead not follow and not speak to me while in a room with reporters and members of his team without wearing masks themselves. It's hypocritical and sends the wrong message and hurts themselves in the process.

A lot of brick-bats here, but most poorly aimed. Yes, we have people on the front lines with too little support -- medical and financial. Whose fault is that? Blaming Democrats is absurd, when the GOP is leading the charge for doing all the wrong things -- including Trump's explicit support of armed militia groups to "reopen the economy". Note: this is exactly what happened in 1918 too. It didn't go well then, and isn't likely to go well now.

[Bob Butler 54]

A six year old can't set up his usual lemonade stand due to social distancing rules, so he does jokes?  CNN reports...

[Classic-Xer]

(05-02-2020, 11:34 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-01-2020, 04:13 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Everyone wearing masks actually is a common, collective effort.  It's just not a government run effort.

It's a perfect example of the "think globally, act locally" philosophy that dominated the environmental movement in the 1970s.  In this case, "think globally" means, "if everyone wore a mask, then transmission would be cut massively, thus greatly reducing the damage from the pandemic".  "Act locally" means, "therefore I should wear a mask, even though my mask doesn't protect me personally, because if everyone does it, then everyone will be protected, including myself".

I don't understand how any Boomers could have missed that, without missing the counterculture entirely.  I'm sure Eric would understand it.  It amazes me that any Boomer could have to wait for the government to tell him what to do before he could take action.

The big difference: the Koreans actually followed the rules from day one without being forced to do so.  The why is easy: they had prior experience.  We Americans pooh-poohed the entire thing until the oh-oh moment arrived, and denial became impossible. To be honest, the West Coast did better, but the so-far less affected are ready to do stupid again -- even with the examples they see on TV everyday.

So, who is the ultra conservative now????

[Classic-Xer]

(05-03-2020, 08:24 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 01:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Science takes time. Politicians take time. Bureaucratic establishments take time. Systems take time to adjust. While all that time is being taken, the entire money related  system is losing money hand over fist. The State of Minnesota is about 5 billion in the hole or short as far as TAX REVENUES with no end in sight as far as the virus goes right now.

Look, I'm going to write something really radical: money is fake. Nothing in society actually creates money except the Federal Reserve and that's just electronic transfers from out of the ether.  The one and only function money serves in society: it's a transaction lubricant.  It allows you, in the HVAC business, to buy groceries, rent a movie and pay for your kid's college, without having to set up a messy barter system.  And savings?  That's just a reserve for future spending.

Classic-Xer Wrote:We have a portion of the workforce out there working and interacting with people/customers and placing themselves at risk as we speak. In short, the shit ain't going away for years and the shit has most likely been around for longer than a month and a half. That's where we are at in my opinion. I think I probably already had it back in late December/early January. I'll let you know for sure whenever the tests that our governor and his team keeps telling us about as being here then telling us why it isn't here yet and then telling us it should be here in a week then extending it being here for another week or two and then extending it another month or so. The job of a doctor or nurse is to advise not dictate. The job of a scientist is to advise not dictate. The job of Democratic politician living of the wealth and success of an American based nation is to lead not follow and not speak to me while in a room with reporters and members of his team without wearing masks themselves. It's hypocritical and sends the wrong message and hurts themselves in the process.

A lot of brick-bats here, but most poorly aimed.  Yes, we have people on the front lines with too little support -- medical and financial. Whose fault is that?  Blaming Democrats is absurd, when the GOP is leading the charge for doing all the wrong things -- including Trump's explicit support of armed militia groups to "reopen the economy".  Note: this is exactly what happened in 1918 too.  It didn't go well then, and isn't likely to go well now.

Yep. The Tea Party is back. A few thousand today. A few more thousand tomorrow, a few hundred thousand more after that and so on. Who do they represent? The 10 million unemployed people who are going to need another trillion advance of free money to keep themselves, their business's and local economies afloat or pretty loose everything and watch as an entire area goes broke. So, how do you hurt/punish liberal elitists who live in Ivory Towers who don't know what it's like to held accountable or severely hurt/punished these days? What do all the elite purples and reds within the entire country do to punish them/teach them a hard lesson about life/growing and RESPECT? Do you think Queen Nancy has ever met a real grown up? I'm not talking about her mega rich hubby who tosses money at her to shut her up and pays off her credit cards every month and buys her diamond rings and pulled the strings to get her in office and paved the way for her to be the Speaker of the House today. I'm talking about a real grown up with no emotional ties to her, her hubby, her party, her ideology or religion, her personal wealth and so forth. What would Nancy be without them? I know what I am without them and Nancy would figure that out really quick. You seem like an elitist to me. An elitist without an Ivory Tower but still an elitist of sort. Me, I'm just a purple elite who happens to be a natural leader who prefers to remain private and prefers a life of solitude. I don't know, what do you think, do you think that I could be an elitist liberal wrecking machine who intervenes and basically destroys radical liberal forums that promote hate speech and racism and Marxist revolution?

[Warren Dew]

(05-03-2020, 02:29 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: That change is profound and permanent.  One of the predictions made in the S&H books is that the change is always greater than what is anticipated going in.  If you look at the difference between the unravelling culture and the following high, the difference is extreme.

Aren't you one of the ones who thinks there can't be a nuclear war?  And here you are lecturing others about the crisis being "greater than what is anticipated".  I'd love for the crisis to be Covid-19 rather than a nuclear war, but that may just be wishful thinking.

At a minimum, Covid-19 would have to do a lot more damage than it has been for it to substitute for a crisis war.  The smallest percentage of the population that has died in a crisis war was just under 0.5%, and that was for WWII, which was barely a crisis war for the US.  Covid-19 is at under 0.02%, even assuming all of the deaths with Covid-19 are on top of the normal death toll.  To be the equivalent of a Crisis War, it would need to get about 25 times worse - to kill 25 times more people.  Not 2x.  25x.

Could it get there?  Sure.  If it turns out it mutates too fast ever to develop a vaccine for it, and if it somehow stays at least as deadly as it is, rather than following the more normal path where diseases tend to get milder, and if the fast mutation rate means immunity from contracting the disease only lasts a few months, then the only long term solution might be to accept that everyone's life expectancy gets cut by a decade, and we'll just have to watch as millions of old people in the US, and tens of millions worldwide, die off.  Then the Millenials will be rid of us Boomers forever, and they can create an authoritarian world full of dictatorships enforcing whatever local brand of politics they want, subject only to limited objections from Gen X.

Is that the most likely path?  I still think a real war is more likely.  With both Presidential candidates vying for who can be more xenophobic about China, we don't seem to be heading for a more peaceful world.

[Eric the Green]

(05-03-2020, 02:29 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 10:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I get the jest of theory. I'm not much of a book reader these days. So, I'll have to pass on reading up and getting more familiar with the works of Strauss and Howe at this point. To be honest, the anomaly that skewed the generations pretty killed the credibility of S&H theory in my opinion. The 1950's had little to no resemblance of the gilded age. The world had changed/advanced significantly. My grandmother's and grandfather's were born when the use of horses and buggies and heavy manual labor to do most everything was still common.

I don't believe that we will return to the Gilded Age. We are far to advanced to return to the Gilded Age. We might have to part ways with  some blue  states who seem more likely to be heading that direction anyway but that's their problem. I'd say the combination of World War I, The Great Depression and World II significantly transformed most of  Europe. So, I'd say that's what it would take to significantly transform the US at this point. I'm not sure what the last question pertains to? COVID19? Yes, I believe that we will eventually get back to the way we were before the COVID19 crisis.

Hmm.

The culture that was the 13 colonies has changed much over the years.  It has not changed steadily.  It goes in fits and starts.  The bulk of the change has occurred in the crisis.  It occurs not the full prophet - nomad - civic generation, but in the five or so years after the trigger and regeneracy when a profound challenge to the culture manifests.

That change is profound and permanent.  One of the predictions made in the S&H books is that the change is always greater than what is anticipated going in.  If you look at the difference between the unravelling culture and the following high, the difference is extreme.

There is no going back.

COVID 19 is a unique trigger.  It has generally been a big violent event marking the beginning of a crisis war, though there was the stock market crash.

Now I have always taken the warning that the change is always more profound than anticipated as a personal challenge.  I generally anticipate a larger change than even most progressives.  The way the game is played well is to anticipate big.  

If a conservative thinks linearly, that the culture will remain the same or will continue the trends of the unraveling, one can quietly snicker.  Change is coming.  One might have to be patient, but it is coming.  It is now here.

I missed.  I anticipated the blue progressive Democratic agenda so long debated.  I did not anticipate the Coronavirus.  Who could?  OK.  That is what we’ve got.  During the other three turnings (high, awakening, unravelling) and even the bulk of the crisis, things don’t change.  For one reason or another, the culture was stuck.  We are just entering the heart of the crisis.  The regeneracy should complete as the progressives take charge of the federal government.  After that, change, big time.  Again, permanent and profound.

Hanging around a T4T forum can be kind of tedious for a progressive.  Sure, there is many a time when we are in the majority and dominate the conversation.  But still, the culture is stuck.  it just sits there.  Nothing moves.  The conservatives can just sit there and propose that what is should continue, and so mote it be.

For a few years we get to run amok.  It might not be pretty, but things will change.

If you don't like it, well, most people don't like a crisis.  Not to worry, the high is coming.

That's right, as I have said too. Once a 4T really gets going, we could get more change than we anticipated. Like was said on Ken Burns' Civil War series, people didn't feel like they lived in the same country after the war.

I did forecast plague for the years after 2012 in my speeches and video, so I got it right to that extent. And I said in my talk in January 2020 that March would see financial and health challenges that would express the big crisis expected for that month. But I was not so sure that the specific coronavirus crisis would be as big as it is. Whether it is a permanent 4T trigger may not be certain; it depends on whether the mood change and behavior change is deep enough, or whether we just go back to normal. The fact that we have other crises still boiling too, makes it likely that the 4T will deepen, even if the virus is not looked upon as the trigger in the future.

[pbrower2a]

(05-03-2020, 08:24 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 01:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Science takes time. Politicians take time. Bureaucratic establishments take time. Systems take time to adjust. While all that time is being taken, the entire money related  system is losing money hand over fist. The State of Minnesota is about 5 billion in the hole or short as far as TAX REVENUES with no end in sight as far as the virus goes right now.

Look, I'm going to write something really radical: money is fake. Nothing in society actually creates money except the Federal Reserve and that's just electronic transfers from out of the ether.  The one and only function money serves in society: it's a transaction lubricant.  It allows you, in the HVAC business, to buy groceries, rent a movie and pay for your kid's college, without having to set up a messy barter system.  And savings?  That's just a reserve for future spending.

The real value of money is what one can get with it. Much more stuff can be bought with a South Korean won than with a North Korean won, and the cause should be obvious. In fact the euro, the (Chinese) renminbi, the US dollar, and the Japanese yen are all welcome in North Korean shops. The art of issuing money is keeping it common enough to be in everyone's hands but rare enough to have value.

Classic-Xer Wrote:We have a portion of the workforce out there working and interacting with people/customers and placing themselves at risk as we speak. In short, the shit ain't going away for years and the shit has most likely been around for longer than a month and a half. That's where we are at in my opinion. I think I probably already had it back in late December/early January. I'll let you know for sure whenever the tests that our governor and his team keeps telling us about as being here then telling us why it isn't here yet and then telling us it should be here in a week then extending it being here for another week or two and then extending it another month or so. The job of a doctor or nurse is to advise not dictate. The job of a scientist is to advise not dictate. The job of Democratic politician living of the wealth and success of an American based nation is to lead not follow and not speak to me while in a room with reporters and members of his team without wearing masks themselves. It's hypocritical and sends the wrong message and hurts themselves in the process.

A lot of brick-bats here, but most poorly aimed.  Yes, we have people on the front lines with too little support -- medical and financial. Whose fault is that?  Blaming Democrats is absurd, when the GOP is leading the charge for doing all the wrong things -- including Trump's explicit support of armed militia groups to "reopen the economy".  Note: this is exactly what happened in 1918 too.  It didn't go well then, and isn't likely to go well now.[/quote]

As I have noticed, stores have been laying off older workers and replacing them with younger workers who are supposedly less likely to get serious consequences from contracting COVID-19. It would be better if those older workers had some savings on which to fall back, but the priority of Corporate America has been to charge as much as they can get away with through monopolization and to pay workers as little as possible by constraining opportunity. People grossly underpaid do not have the means with which to save.

(mostly to Classic X'er) 

Donald Trump's response has been an unmitigated disaster.  South Korea has done far better than we have. Sure it has a more authoritarian culture, but the South Korean Government didn't mess around. China seems to have localized the epidemic  (if you believe its media, but there is outside verification). Just when state Governors get a few things right and prevent the death of a huge percentage of their citizens over fifty, Trump calls for measure that would undo those correct responses by calling for people to "liberate" their states -- and unleash COVID-19. 

Trump has exploited the worst currents in American political life to get elected, and as President he exploits those worst currents in life to protect "his" economy. Democrats, and in a few cases Republicans, have called Trump on this. Until the number of new cases falls we are better off with a 1930's economy for a couple of years than with a death rate approaching that of the Black Death. 

If any good comes from this Crisis (and I see COVID-19 as its culmination), then it will be the unforeseen consequences. 3T behavior that made us both medically and financially vulnerable will be highly disreputable in a very short time.

Life complying with state shutdowns is miserable. Try living under a respirator, in which case you have only about a 20% chance of survival and have little freedom of movement.  

Let's think of some other manifestation of pointless death. Survivors of the Holocaust, about the most pointless mass death that ever existed (rightly) reminded people of the loss of loved ones and good friends from before the Holocaust.   People aren't even able to mourn the losses of loved ones as they usually do when the funeral homes are obliged to limit the number of visitors to honor the dead. This is a truly fcuked-up time in American history, one that will have ugly reverberations and recriminations for years. Some grandparents will never take grandchildren out to fish or share the secrets of baking a great pie or jam. In recent years the elderly have been active as long as possible, extending their potential for making the world a better place past retirement age, especially in cultural achievements.  That may be over.

[pbrower2a]

(05-03-2020, 02:58 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-03-2020, 01:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Remember: stupidity is not a survival value.

Nitpick.  My niece runs the shark museum on Cape Cod.  She gave me one of the museum T shirts.  It features a great white shark striking a rather aggressive pose with the caption ‘respect the locals’.

It fits. Truth be told, the great white shark is likely to recognize us as undesirable as food. We have precious little body fat (that is blubber) as does a salmon, seal, dolphin, or (surprisingly) deer. Reputedly we do not taste good. An attack by a great white shark is typically a mistake possible in murky waters. I can think of one highly-unselective predator that I would not want contemplating us as meat. I know how to behave in their presence.

Quote:Not a lot of brains, the great whites, but they have survived on teeth for a long time essentially unchanged.

Bites and brains are a good combination. See also killer whales, seals, bears, cats, hyenas, wolves and dogs, otters, pigs, and (surprisingly) gorillas. Horses are about in the same league as we are as biters, and they seem to be fairly smart.

Quote:I do remember a great white stalking, sprinting then attacking with great ferocity... a buoy with a camera designed to look like a seal.  Sucker.

Many men have been tricked by female impersonators. So? Maybe injecting disinfectants containing sodium hypochlorite or carbolic acid will qualify for a Darwin Award if one dies.  

Quote:But humans have taken a different path.  We ought to do better.

In view of Donald Trump -- we don't.

[Eric the Green]

(05-03-2020, 01:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 11:34 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-01-2020, 04:13 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Everyone wearing masks actually is a common, collective effort.  It's just not a government run effort.

It's a perfect example of the "think globally, act locally" philosophy that dominated the environmental movement in the 1970s.  In this case, "think globally" means, "if everyone wore a mask, then transmission would be cut massively, thus greatly reducing the damage from the pandemic".  "Act locally" means, "therefore I should wear a mask, even though my mask doesn't protect me personally, because if everyone does it, then everyone will be protected, including myself".

I don't understand how any Boomers could have missed that, without missing the counterculture entirely.  I'm sure Eric would understand it.  It amazes me that any Boomer could have to wait for the government to tell him what to do before he could take action.

The big difference: the Koreans actually followed the rules from day one without being forced to do so.  The why is easy: they had prior experience.  We Americans pooh-poohed the entire thing until the oh-oh moment arrived, and denial became impossible. To be honest, the West Coast did better, but the so-far less affected are ready to do stupid again -- even with the examples they see on TV everyday.

So, who is the ultra conservative now????

My favorite lyric from my favorite song really fits a lot. "And the parting on the left, is now parting on the right". What was liberal is now conservative. Go figure, Mr. Classic Conservative!

[Classic-Xer]

(05-03-2020, 01:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:


Remember: stupidity is not a survival value.

Would you rather die by starving to death alone in your home while waiting for a cure or would you prefer to be shot while scavenging by a neighbor or prefer to have to REALLY beg for a living vs the easier cozy blue version of begging/self pity that you do from the seat of your pants like you do here. Financially speaking, I know Michigan wasn't even close to being in the same financial shape as Minnesota was in before COVID19 showed up.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-03-2020, 02:00 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: I still think a real war is more likely.  With both Presidential candidates vying for who can be more xenophobic about China, we don't seem to be heading for a more peaceful world.

I am not worried about a war with China.  I don’t think even Trump is stupid enough to start a land war in Asia.  He is about himself, and not about allies.  He has disengaged from everything.

As we are not apt to start a land war in Asia, who would be eager to start a sea war with the United States?  China recently aborted it’s fifth and sixth carrier, likely as they have been unable to launch an aircraft from water with nearly the fuel and payload of the Americans.  If you want to challenge the US to a carrier duel in the Pacific you need to hit hard at range.  China has given up on using carriers for that.

But there is one area were the two could easily find common cause, could cooperate fully.  Each government needs a foreign power to yap at to draw their own press away from their own mistakes with COVID 19.  A good deal of indignant sound and fury seems possible.  I wouldn’t worry about it.  Trump is in the eyes of most foreign leaders a harmless fool, so nothing is apt to escalate except the noise level.

I wish he were far enough away to be harmless to Americans.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-03-2020, 04:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Would you rather die by starving to death alone in your home while waiting for a cure or would you prefer to be shot while scavenging by a neighbor or prefer to have to REALLY beg for a living vs the easier cozy blue version of begging/self pity that you do from the seat of your pants like you do here. Financially speaking, I know Michigan wasn't even close to being in the same financial shape as Minnesota was in before COVID19 showed up.

It seems to me that purposely disregarding both personal space and PPE would be assault with a deadly weapon. That being a felony, the perpetrator would lose his right to bear arms. Sound right?

[Classic-Xer]

(05-03-2020, 04:35 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(05-03-2020, 01:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 11:34 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-01-2020, 04:13 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Everyone wearing masks actually is a common, collective effort.  It's just not a government run effort.

It's a perfect example of the "think globally, act locally" philosophy that dominated the environmental movement in the 1970s.  In this case, "think globally" means, "if everyone wore a mask, then transmission would be cut massively, thus greatly reducing the damage from the pandemic".  "Act locally" means, "therefore I should wear a mask, even though my mask doesn't protect me personally, because if everyone does it, then everyone will be protected, including myself".

I don't understand how any Boomers could have missed that, without missing the counterculture entirely.  I'm sure Eric would understand it.  It amazes me that any Boomer could have to wait for the government to tell him what to do before he could take action.

The big difference: the Koreans actually followed the rules from day one without being forced to do so.  The why is easy: they had prior experience.  We Americans pooh-poohed the entire thing until the oh-oh moment arrived, and denial became impossible. To be honest, the West Coast did better, but the so-far less affected are ready to do stupid again -- even with the examples they see on TV everyday.

So, who is the ultra conservative now????

My favorite lyric from my favorite song really fits a lot. "And the parting on the left, is now parting on the right". What was liberal is now conservative. Go figure, Mr. Classic Conservative!

Wow, you have a sense of humor. Liberals with a sense of humors are becoming rare these days. One of my first impressions/thoughts of liberals way back when was wow, what a bunch of squares. I thought liberals were supposed to be carefree and fun. You know, the risk takers, I'll try anything once, if it don't kill you it makes you stronger, rules were made to be broken like the group that I hung out with back in the day.

[Eric the Green]

(05-03-2020, 04:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-03-2020, 01:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:


Remember: stupidity is not a survival value.

Would you rather die by starving to death alone in your home while waiting for a cure or would you prefer to be shot while scavenging by a neighbor or prefer to have to REALLY beg for a living vs the easier cozy blue version of begging/self pity that you do from the seat of your pants like you do here. Financially speaking, I know Michigan wasn't even close to being in the same financial shape as Minnesota was in before COVID19 showed up.

Do you realize that if your president had distributed the funds that congress (senate 96-0) voted to help people financially get through the crisis, that no-one would have to scavenge because of the economic shutdown?

[Eric the Green]

(05-03-2020, 01:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:


Remember: stupidity is not a survival value.

Are you sure that the idiots protesting are not even uglier than this?