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Fox News Castigated Over Virus Depiction
#1
So, I read this story and saw a video where Fox News personalities said very specific things about the virus, they weren't afraid, they went out to dinner, etc. Then, just days later, management had forced them to sit apart on the sound stage, ppl were sent on hiatus based on their expressed views.

That was really cool not because something with a certain ideology was called out, but because EVERYONE is being forced to recognize the time of individual or group ideology is over.  There's no more room for anyone who identifies with ideology in any way. It is now time for a group effort that requires Groupthink.  Groupthink has no ideology. It is comprised of worker bees performing in tandem with each other to accomplish great tasks.  Or, termite ants. They build enormous structures made of a sort of natural concrete. The structures they make can span waterways.

I am not saying this from my own reality. The Strauss & Howe concepts are telling us what to look for. Coming right now, waiting for their chance, is a conglomerate of Heroes, Artists and Nomads that are going to do extraordinary things. Instead of roadways and bridges, they will make use of the Internet as the new shopping grid, virtual reality for scientific problem-solving, cures for disease by examination on cellular levels, etc.

I am glad to see this played out in public.  We can no longer afford to allow ideology of any kind to stop progress.
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#2
I of course have a different slant. The conservative ideology is to ignore problems. They are into cutting taxes, cutting services, cutting domestic spending, cutting money going to minorities, and cutting in general. A problem came around which cannot be ignored without immediate deadly consequences. This is a Crisis. As a result, replacing the old values with the new values which include a decisive scientific response is just the sort of thing S&H expected.

And the blue is an ideology.

And we do need a decisive. scientific, united response.
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#3
...not that HIV/AIDS is a perfect analogy...

There were plenty of denials about the seriousness of HIV/AIDS when it became infamously prominent. Many people thought that they had some solid defense against it... until people started dying of it that one never would have expected. COVID-19 attacks the body differently and has very different means of transmission, but -- pointless death is pointless death.

Could we be over--reacting? Maybe. There was plenty of wrong advice circulating about AIDS and how it could be transmitted, including mosquito bites, toilet seats, coughs and sneezes... I need not go into the means of transmission. Coughs and sneezes can spread COVID-19.

There is no deep, dark conspiracy -- but there are cover-ups, not surprisingly, in China and Iran which have authoritarian regimes hostile to anyone who tells derogatory news about the regime and its deeds.

So -- eat at home. Use wipes. Treat any suspected case of the flu as a medical emergency. Avoid crowds of any kind. Don't dawdle in any place in which contact with strangers is possible. Wear face masks in public places. Know that not getting or spreading this disease is worth a lay-off or using some sick time.

Also, know well -- this nasty situation will pass. Life will be back to normal. It is a good time for doing creative things that you put off or abandoned, or for enriching your cultural life. Read. Listen to great music (even if it is recorded). Write letters to people that you have not communicated to for years.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#4
(03-18-2020, 09:12 PM)TheNomad Wrote: It is now time for a group effort that requires Groupthink.  Groupthink has no ideology.

Groupthink is itself an ideology, and a pernicious one.
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#5
(03-19-2020, 12:43 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 09:12 PM)TheNomad Wrote: It is now time for a group effort that requires Groupthink.  Groupthink has no ideology.

Groupthink is itself an ideology, and a pernicious one.

Not in this context.  With the upcoming Hero and comrades who rebuild during and after the Crisis, Groupthink is the only thing that gets these unreal Crisis problems solved. 

The Groupthink will be so severe (it has to be to solve these issues) it will create a dead culture. 

Strauss and Howe wrote that after a Crisis, society will

"...feel like it can DO ANYTHING but cannot FEEL ANYTHING." 

And the reverse is true in the Enlightening when the Prophet returns.  They bring the era of FEELING ALL and DOING NONE.  They create the culture we are now in that is so obsessed with ideology and being right, no one can agree to get the problems of the Crisis solved.

It's laid out in the texts how this works.  Things swing to extremes and then return the other way.
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#6
(03-19-2020, 06:41 PM)TheNomad Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 12:43 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 09:12 PM)TheNomad Wrote: It is now time for a group effort that requires Groupthink.  Groupthink has no ideology.

Groupthink is itself an ideology, and a pernicious one.

Not in this context.  With the upcoming Hero and comrades who rebuild during and after the Crisis, Groupthink is the only thing that gets these unreal Crisis problems solved. 

The Groupthink will be so severe (it has to be to solve these issues) it will create a dead culture. 

Strauss and Howe wrote that after a Crisis, society will

"...feel like it can DO ANYTHING but cannot FEEL ANYTHING." 

And the reverse is true in the Enlightening when the Prophet returns.  They bring the era of FEELING ALL and DOING NONE.  They create the culture we are now in that is so obsessed with ideology and being right, no one can agree to get the problems of the Crisis solved.

It's laid out in the texts how this works.  Things swing to extremes and then return the other way.

I am more inclined to view groupthink, ideology or what I call world views as pretty much similar.

Conservatives perceive a need to cut taxes, create smaller government, and thus problems that require taxes and big government in order to solve become harder to admit they exist. They just plain refuse to see the problems their vision doesn’t include.

Progressives are willing to create a government that can solve problems and tax to solve problems, and try to use science to prove that the problems exist.

Both opposing groups employ groupthink possess an ideology, and have a world view, three different ways of saying the same thing, essentially.

Or switching to Nomad variant of S&H, the red bloomers and blue boomers are artificially mashed together and get blamed while the younger generations get mashed together and poof magic things get better. They will somehow solve everything in the crisis when the boomers are in charge.

?

This is very different from S&H where the three active generations each have a positive role to play.

As I see it, the high in the Industrial Age was a time when the ideologies of the last Crisis was enforced by things like McCarthism. They are a time when people focus on materialism and infrastructure building rather than ideas. Whatever struggles happened in the prior Crisis are declared loudly over, and folks are ready to forget those struggles for a while. It is not that we can’t feel, but that the only acceptable feelings were defined in the Crisis.

In the Awakening of the Industrial Age, the next bunch of struggles begin. The Prophets grow up seeing what to them is the next obvious flaws to be corrected, and loudly proclaim the flaws. These flaws don’t get resolved until the Crisis, usually by military force. Conservatives tend not to perceive the flaws, but would rather enjoy the privileges of the existing culture.

In the Information Age? Is it harder to get an effective Trigger when nobody wants a Crisis War? Are problems solved by legislation in the Awakening, making the Awakening the transforming turning rather than the Crisis? If the Awakening solves the problems it declares, do you get no debate driving the Unraveling and Crisis, and a split Idealist generation that acts less to change things and more to keep things the same? If there was is no Regeneracy, if there is no heart of the Crisis where trial and error refines the new values, how is it that everyone is tired in the High, and what ideology is enforced by things like McCarthyism? Do you thus have to throw away everything one learned about the Industrial Age, and start looking hard at what is really happening?

I have been having a little trouble figuring out Nomad. He does see problems being solved soon when the Boomers go away. In that he is vaguely blue in acknowledging that something has to change. In recent discussions of the Virus he has come out as rural, wanting to live as he has in the past, unable to perceive the problem, and not hearing what science has to tell him. In that he shares something with the red.

That might be clarified?
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#7
The Groupthink I invoke does not rely on belief system. It is anti belief system regarding procedure.  It may actually be a backlash to values-driven stalemate and stalling that arrives at a pointless battle of

A

or

B

the Groupthink I am talking about does not SAY anything. It is not aligned automatically with anything. I think it might be an implosion of ideals as a route to governance. It ONLY identifies the biggest problems............ AS PROBLEMS.......... and sets out to address a solution. If someone in the group shouts out they cannot be for this or that reform because they don't believe in that type of reform, they are pretty much already outside the group.  The group does not want them involved.

Why? Because that person is approaching the problem from a belief system not solution-oriented.  Therefore, possibly identifying the problem AS a problem with the group, but holding the process up due to their values.  THAT WILL BECOME UNACCEPTABLE.

At the moment, I think back to abortion in 1973.................. that was not a decision made by radical hippies.  I do not view that landmark as some surge into values.  That decision was made due to very staunch justices of the time who I would guess were probably Heroes of the first of the 20th century.  The authors name JFK as identifying "Americans born in this century" and let's guess (I am not doing research on my own time) a justice is a good 70-years old... and remember, the Artist works in conjunction with the Hero with these types of things..... anywhere from 50-70+ years of age.  The judges who decided that case.  If someone wants to look up the bench of that time I am interested. 

The Prophet archetype was NOT involved in this ruling.  At first glance, abortion LOOKS or MAY LOOK like a VERY values-driven thing.  It was not.  The bench who was of that age may have looked deeply into the idea:

"we left all this STRUCTURE for our children and grandchildren, now we have to apply moral freedom for them with this."

And then voted accordingly.  A freedom none of them were able to touch in the 1930s through the 1960s when THEY were having children.  Not that it was a smack on themselves and bearing children, they wanted to give their offspring that power to choose.  That decision was not made in a heated argument.  It was that cool blue Groupthink mentality.

THEREFORE, that makes - to me - the abortion ruling a very level-headed decision not made by values-driven Prophet but very Groupthinky Heroes and maybe Artists.  That decision could not be made currently.  Our political climate (forget the current bench, I am speaking now of POLITICAL CLIMATE) would not allow such and landmark ruling.  I don't believe it could.

People would be flinging themselves into pyres on the national mall, there would be unification of churches marching in streets.  LOOK AT NOW ANYWAY you have governors banning abortion locally and forcing women to go across state lines.  And local ppl trying even harder to implement their own vision.  Their own ideology.

Only in the cool pot of Groupthink could such a thing happen.

The justices of that court are very old, yes.  So, take the idea of that ruling backward.  When were the Hero and Artist archetypes at full power in America?  I would guess off my head that might be around the 1950s and 1960s?  When said ppl are at peak age and power.  What was America at that time?

Strong
Cohesive
Boring
Drunk?
Samey
New/Refreshed on the surface and dying inside?

How did that all happen?  We went through the last Crisis arm of the Saeculum in GDI and WWII, the Hero fought in the war and suffered while being directed by the Prophet (or those in the older archetype), they aged with Artists into the 40s and 50s and 60s and had children.  They came to power in Groupthink which allowed basically all the major refreshments to our nation, building roads and bridges, passing landmark legislation......... all the things we NOW absolutely cannot make happen.  It only happens when everybody agrees on what the problems are and goes after them without passion or prejudice.  There are no loud mouths or preachers.  There are only worker ants.  When THOSE people raise their children (Prophets and Nomads), those children do not like it.  

They don't care the huge bank of marble was built downtown, they want to rock and they want to smoke weed.  They don't care what the elders made -- to save them, btw, to get through the Crisis -- they only care about "being free" and "finding themselves".

Hero and Artist know little about those things.  Artists maybe, because the authors describe Artist as having a real relationship and admiring of their grandparent generation.  (*)And while Nomad loves the culture brought by the Prophet, doesn't have much love for the self-absorbed Prophet OR the rather bland Artist who is strongly held-to-account in Grouthink by the Hero.

(*) my opinion, not derived from the authors.

Prophet hates all of them and cannot understand them.  Prophet is doing its own thing from the beginning.  It hates its parents and grandparents and rebels against them.............. rebels against EVERYTHING that came before it.  And I would dare say, Prophet hates its children in the way the authors describe creating the latch-key child, forcing kids to grow up quick so it can be a convenience to them, etc. Hate might be strong, but for this exam it works. 

Then Prophet ages and we get to now, where Prophet is the big bad on the street, knocking down the Other with his big stick, A vs B and the rest of us are yawning and see the walls breaking and the road falling apart and gets pissed. 

Fact: The authors say in plain words: For the Prophet, every experience is new as if it happened to only them. No experience prior to them is believed until they, themselves, experience it. 

That's great when the culture is completely stuffed full with marshmallow and you can't move.  You want ppl that break the mold, defy expectation and create NEWNESS.  But that turns stale and deadly when they are in charge.  Like a cute lion cub, you can pet it in youth but it might eat you when it's older.  We suffer much under the rule of Prophet.  He needs to learn when it's time to step away from that primary leadership role.

I might add, the authors in The 4th Turning talk about the very end of the Crisis:

(my words) The Prophet holds onto power until the last moment, and with a final explosion of essence, then hands over the reigns to Nomad who picks up with pragmatism and the unification of Hero and Artist to support.

^^ is as close to exact words as I can recall.  If this is the right time, we might see the current president ending soon, to be replaced by someone younger?  I really thought that was going to be Pete, but since the only other choice is Joe, we will have 4 more of the current and THEN the above will happen.  Personally, I dont wanna wait that long.  Had this Crisis happened 6 months ago, I believe Pete would be coming to town.
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#8
I see the Prophet as breaking his ideals into practical use, then letting go.  There is a burst after the Crisis is over as the ideals are supposedly set in stone.  The Constitution may be written, the Reconstruction started, the UN created.  Then you settle down to collect the well earned rewards of what you just went through.

That assumes you had a Trigger, a Regeneracy and a heart of the Crisis, and you actually went through something.

The Prophet seems to be followed by the Nomad who is into materialism late in life.  There was enough adventure during the Crisis.  By the High, enough of that, he is too old, so he builds infrastructure and tries to sit on remnants of the old ideology that came before the Crisis.  The hard edged element of the younger Nomad seems to be gone.  Last time around that vanished in rows of identical houses and superhighway building.  He sells out, sinks roots, or whatever the boomers did after the Awakening.  He fits the stagnant boring description.

This same old same old materialism is not the optimal attitude for solving problems.  That is why one of my possibilities is waiting for the Awakening before the transformations come.  Before the virus, there was no Trigger, thus no Regeneracy, thus no trial and error.  The High is a time of materialism and sameness, not a time of problem solving and innovation.  Wait for the Awakening and the energy of the Prophet young matched with legislative problem solving?

***

Each generation seems to celebrate its own music.  It generally seems blah to other generations.  I for one appreciate much of the old stuff.  Whether it is Steven Foster, Louis Armstrong, Fred Astaire, Gershwin, Elvis, Lennon, whatever, I can appreciate it.  Each style whether it is the blues, swing, rock and roll, rock, disco or whatever is shaped by the experiences of that generation.

But it seemed to stop after disco.  From the start of recorded music and even before, it seems that each generation adopted its own style and era.  After disco, it was just rock and country.  The styles of the various Beatles eras were all continued and expanded on, but the degree of turnover of styles seems to have reduced.  Oh, the effects still grew and were used, but rock is still rock.

The happy dance music of the passive years - be it the rock and roll of the High or the disco of the Awakening - interests me less.  But it seems the generational music grabs most its own generation. That generations do not love other generation’s music seems sort of a constant.
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#9
(03-19-2020, 12:43 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 09:12 PM)TheNomad Wrote: It is now time for a group effort that requires Groupthink.  Groupthink has no ideology.

Groupthink is itself an ideology, and a pernicious one.

The idea that we're at our best when we act like cats rather than dogs never applies to situations like these.  Look at the very non-compliant Italians as a prime example.  On the other hand, we shouldn't emulate Singapore either, but that model is a lot closer to what we need to do than everyone doing his or her own thing.  Be an individualist when it doesn't matter so much.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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