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Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future
#21
(06-15-2020, 03:20 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: Overall I always considered Russians a part of Western civilization, and this is how the Middle East views them too. But when it comes to politics, Russians are more resistant to democracy than Indonesia with its exotic heritage. Is this because of Stalin's purges, which unwittingly eliminated all people with genetic traits conducive to supporting democracy?

I always considered the invasions more important.  They got ate by the mongols, then beat back three attempts from Europe.  The Mongols taught them how to rule as conquered.  The rulers exploit the people.  The failures from Europe meant they never leaned the Enlightenment values.  They are still stuck on autocracy.

In many ways they are more European than Asian, culturally, if you just add vodka.  The twin curses of the leadership exploiting the people and lacking the Enlightenment virtues leaves them well behind Europe, far enough that they are commonly separated from it.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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#22
Quote:Now for Eric...,

You know Eric, I actually want to apologise to you. I think we got off on the wrong foot and have been in this sort of cold war since. What do you say we let bygones be bygones, shake hands and just get on? I like posting here, you like posting here, so let's be big men about it, eh? If your ever in Russia or I'm ever in America, I'll buy you a beer sometime.

I guess this was from Isoko? If so......

OK, that's something to consider. I don't put people on ignore because I disagree with them; it's how people treat me, more or less.

Thanks for your apology.

(not that I will ever go to Russia, or drink beer, but whatever works.....)
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#23
Eric,

Yes that was from me. I realised I had been too harsh to you and felt that I owed you an apology. I hope that we can once again let bygones be bygones. Plus I have some interesting stuff I'd like to discuss with you at some point that I think you might find interesting.

As for the beer - well whatever you fancy, I'm sure we can work something out. :Smile

Also I liked your music list. You do have good taste and I can see why there was a strong liberal element amongst the boomers. It must have been a very magical time to be alive.

Blazkovitz,

What you have to understand about Russia is that it never was 'Western' and never will be. Throughout Russian history, the society has always been run along the lines of the 'strong king theory' which is basically the need for a strong ruler to unite the country and guide it through turbulent times on the road to a better future. Putin is no stranger to this tradition and has followed it quite resolutely. As someone once told me, "Putin knows how to be king." Therefore, there never has been the strong desire for a democracy.

As pbrower and others have said, this is largely down to the history of Russia and how they developed. They have always struggled on the land they live in, always being attacked and having to deal with hardships that strong leadership has always been required to get them through it.

Peter the Great and Catherine were in the same mould as this and merely copied the West in order to make Russia more competitive like what Japan did during the Meiji Restoration. However in Peter's case he was heavily in love with the West and saw Russia as a backwards nation. Even still, the reforms instituted did meet with much opposition and Russia sort of fell back into their old ways, failing to industrialise properly until Stalin came along.

Due to living in the steppe and embracing the lifestyle, I'd say Russians are not Western but not Eastern either. It's more like a true East meets West nation and always will be.

Pbrower,

Lots of stuff to reply to so I will be sure to give it a more thoughtful reply later on.
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#24
(06-15-2020, 03:20 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: Overall I always considered Russians a part of Western civilization, and this is how the Middle East views them too. But when it comes to politics, Russians are more resistant to democracy than Indonesia with its exotic heritage. Is this because of Stalin's purges, which unwittingly eliminated all people with genetic traits conducive to supporting democracy?

But they're not. The difference between Orthodox and Western Christianity comes from the different paths they took. When Christianity was established as a formal religion in the 4th century it became the state religion of the Roman Empire. When the Empire split for good in 395 CE, the path taken by the Christian hierarchy in the West began to deviate from that of the East. The latter remained true to the original formulation (orthodox) remaining a state religion.

In the West they tried to, but first the Western Empire crumbled before the eyes. The province of Britain reverted to paganism. The  Iberian province was overrun by Muslims. The Franks were Roman Christians, and with Charlemagne's conquests, there was once again a western "Roman" empire with western (Catholic) Christianity as its state religion. At this point, not too different from Orthodox. But then the Carolingian empire fell in the West, and you had a period known as the Feudalization of the church. In the absence of the empire, of which state was Catholicism the state religion for?  All these petty warlords running around late 9th and 10th century France? What arose was a system of religious institutions (e.g. Cluniac monasteries) that was independent of local political authorities, acknowledging only the authority of the Bishop of Rome (Pope), who was enmeshed in Italian politics and uninterested in the affairs of French monasteries, making them free to evolve along different lines than they would have in the East, where the Roman empire was still intact.

As a result of this split, the West evolved in a different direction than the East. In the West there was the Reformation, because of this independent tradition that originally emerged from the crisis of the 9th and 10th centuries. Once split off, Protestantism continued to develop in all sorts of ways including Liberalism, Humanism and, recently, this new "Woke" theology. Russia and the Orthodox countries have never been part of the West. They are their own thing.

It is true we both count Classical civilization as antecedents, but so does Islam. But we departed from the orthodox path that Eastern Christianity remained on.  (Islam is an even more orthodox faith, as shown by it's extreme conservative factions embracing of medieval forms and practices).
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#25
(06-14-2020, 04:13 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Tara -- learn Slovak. That is one way in which to show an intent to remain there. Czech or Polish would be more useful from a cultural standpoint because there is more literature in both, and Slovak is fairly close to both.

I am taking a course and am learning Slovak, but it is bloody hard. Totally foreign from english. I would have an easier time with German.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#26
(06-14-2020, 06:19 PM)Mikebert Wrote:
(06-14-2020, 03:13 PM)taramarie Wrote: I am not American, but given my recent move to Slovakia from New Zealand i can tell you NZ will always be my home. It is a part of me and any time i hear someone speaking english, i am drawn to that person. It is not a part of me to speak slovak, to live in a new culture. I do not mix well together in my new country and therefore it is not a part of who i am. i for one would be drawn to people who come from where i come from. Sadly there are no other kiwi's in Slovakia. This does not make me a racist for wanting to cling to something familiar and pull away from the unknown. But rather i miss what i am used to and a bit of home would make me feel like i have a bit of home away from home. You simply cannot have people from all sorts of backgrounds and expect to get along in one place as there would of course be a culture clash and arguments can come from confusion. I have had this happen already here in Slovakia. New societal pressures and a new culture. It makes me uncomfortable at times and id feel much happier with what feels more authentic to me. You can take the kiwi out of NZ but you cannot take the culture out of the kiwi. Unrealistic to believe it will happen. However are American lefties acting and believing in a blended culture where everyone gets along with everyone? Surely they realize that just is not possible. This is not possible with anything really. People will always fragment and stereotype and hate on whatever feels unfamiliar or whatever does not blend with their beliefs, regardless of culture. Always has been the way, always will be i imagine.

Why are you living in Slovakia?  I am an American, I don't want to live somewhere where they don't speak English.
I am living in Slovakia because my husband is here and my husband's family is here. I do not have much family at all on my side. So I moved here. So far it has been rough for me. Hopefully it will get better. As for the rest of your post, that is you. I am not an American, so the kiwi found her wings and flew to another country. Just I am struggling to learn the language and my new life here.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#27
I recall a magazine article that predicted that eventually all races would mix...eventually resulting in a single blended population. It was suggested that everyone would resemble Polynesians in appearance.

So racism would fade away, because there would only be one race.

But....

Humanity has an ornery streak. People would find some reason to hate each other. Maybe they will hate each other for having different religions, different political ideologies, for speaking different languages, etc.

One might assume that such differences would be put aside by people of good will. But in large groups, there are never enough people of good will to completely over come that ornery streak.
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#28
(06-15-2020, 05:01 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(06-15-2020, 03:20 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: Overall I always considered Russians a part of Western civilization, and this is how the Middle East views them too. But when it comes to politics, Russians are more resistant to democracy than Indonesia with its exotic heritage. Is this because of Stalin's purges, which unwittingly eliminated all people with genetic traits conducive to supporting democracy?

I always considered the invasions more important.  They got ate by the mongols, then beat back three attempts from Europe.  The Mongols taught them how to rule as conquered.  The rulers exploit the people.  The failures from Europe meant they never leaned the Enlightenment values.  They are still stuck on autocracy.

In many ways they are more European than Asian, culturally, if you just add vodka.  The twin curses of the leadership exploiting the people and lacking the Enlightenment virtues leaves them well behind Europe, far enough that they are commonly separated from it.

It's an ongoing debate in Russia as well:
https://www.rbth.com/lifestyle/331166-ru...-of-europe

I agree with the author that Russia is culturally closer to Germany or France than to India, Saudi Arabia or Japan. Politically it's a uniue bizarre thing, a sort of Roman Empire. It's telling that Americans still regard Russia as the un-America (Democrats hate it for this reason, and Trumpkins love it for the same reason). I never heard India, Saudi Arabia or Japan defined as the opposite of America, OK maybe Saudi Arabia by neocons during the War on Terror.

As for the Enlightenment, I don't really like it. It gave the world radical individualism and naive faith in humanity which are present in both Wokism (Inclusivism) and Libertarianism.
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#29
(06-15-2020, 06:45 AM)Mikebert Wrote: the Orthodox countries have never been part of the West. They are their own thing.

Romania and Bulgaria are a part of the EU, and there are more Orthodox Xians there than in Russia.
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#30
(06-16-2020, 03:04 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: As for the Enlightenment, I don't really like it. It gave the world radical individualism and naive faith in humanity which are present in both Wokism (Inclusivism) and Libertarianism.

I favor the elements of human rights, equality, and democracy.  Those I will keep.  Those pretty much separate Europe from Asia.  

The philosophies of Individualism, Wokism, and Libertarianism I could pretty much ignore.  I'll let you dump on them without much caring.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
Reply
#31
(06-15-2020, 06:45 AM)Mikebert Wrote:
(06-15-2020, 03:20 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: Overall I always considered Russians a part of Western civilization, and this is how the Middle East views them too. But when it comes to politics, Russians are more resistant to democracy than Indonesia with its exotic heritage. Is this because of Stalin's purges, which unwittingly eliminated all people with genetic traits conducive to supporting democracy?

But they're not. The difference between Orthodox and Western Christianity comes from the different paths they took. When Christianity was established as a formal religion in the 4th century it became the state religion of the Roman Empire. When the Empire split for good in 395 CE, the path taken by the Christian hierarchy in the West began to deviate from that of the East. The latter remained true to the original formulation (orthodox) remaining a state religion.

In the West they tried to, but first the Western Empire crumbled before the eyes. The province of Britain reverted to paganism. The  Iberian province was overrun by Muslims. The Franks were Roman Christians, and with Charlemagne's conquests, there was once again a western "Roman" empire with western (Catholic) Christianity as its state religion. At this point, not too different from Orthodox. But then the Carolingian empire fell in the West, and you had a period known as the Feudalization of the church. In the absence of the empire, of which state was Catholicism the state religion for?  All these petty warlords running around late 9th and 10th century France? What arose was a system of religious institutions (e.g. Cluniac monasteries) that was independent of local political authorities, acknowledging only the authority of the Bishop of Rome (Pope), who was enmeshed in Italian politics and uninterested in the affairs of French monasteries, making them free to evolve along different lines than they would have in the East, where the Roman empire was still intact.

As a result of this split, the West evolved in a different direction than the East. In the West there was the Reformation, because of this independent tradition that originally emerged from the crisis of the 9th and 10th centuries. Once split off, Protestantism continued to develop in all sorts of ways including Liberalism, Humanism and, recently, this new "Woke" theology. Russia and the Orthodox countries have never been part of the West. They are their own thing.

It is true we both count Classical civilization as antecedents, but so does Islam. But we departed from the orthodox path that Eastern Christianity remained on.  (Islam is an even more orthodox faith, as shown by it's extreme conservative factions embracing of medieval forms and practices).

Good summary. Theoretically the West still had the Holy Roman empire, but it was weak. Originally Islam was a reform movement, but it has become orthodox and conservative.

I like Inclusivism and see nothing wrong with it. I think it includes all the people in Blazkovitz's quadrant, and Greens are included in that, and thus myself; they include some new ideas that go beyond the Enlightenment, especially in giving rights to Nature, and the ideal of peace, as well as accepting diversity. To me these also imply the inherent spiritual or mystical nature of humanity and life, although not a rejection of science.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#32
(06-15-2020, 07:45 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: I recall a magazine article that predicted that eventually all races would mix...eventually resulting in a single blended population.  It was suggested that everyone would resemble Polynesians in appearance.

So racism would fade away, because there would only be one race.

But....

Humanity has an ornery streak.  People would find some reason to hate each other.  Maybe they will hate each other for having different religions, different political ideologies, for speaking different languages, etc.

One might assume that such differences would be put aside by people of good will.  But in large groups, there are never enough people of good will to completely over come that ornery streak.

There does seem to be an ornery streak. I am very disappointed that many people I know who profess liberal and/or spiritual ideals are still ornery, and that they mistreat me and my friends. I don't exclude myself. The groups are becoming obsolete, but the ornery streak may take longer to root out. It will take spiritual evolution, since ornery streaks come mostly from the anxious impulses within us that we have not yet learned to deal with very well. Gautama the Buddha remains the greatest psychologist in human history, and maybe the first.

I trust that humans have evolved in the past and will continue to do so, generally speaking. I see that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Democracy in The West and in its former colonies is evidence of this, and so is that much-hated organization the United Nations. Wars still happen but are declining.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#33
Yeah, I hate the ornery streak.

But the ornery streak isn't the only problem. That cop in Minneapolis is a goddamn idiot.
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#34
(06-16-2020, 03:44 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Yeah, I hate the ornery streak.

But the ornery streak isn't the only problem.  That cop in Minneapolis is a goddamn idiot.

I'm again not sure idiot is the right word.  He may have a warped issue of superiority due to pigmentation lack.  He may have a based on history belief that this lack gives him immunity from equality and justice, and always will.  But these are elements of his world view, and S&H turning theory is in part about how world views collectively change, notably in a crisis heart.

Idiocy doesn't change.  I suspect the reds are guilty of something other than idiocy.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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#35
(06-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I trust that humans have evolved in the past and will continue to do so, generally speaking. I see that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Democracy in The West and in its former colonies is evidence of this, and so is that much-hated organization the United Nations. Wars still happen but are declining.

"Democracy in the West?"  It doesn't seem to be doing very well right now.

Justice?  When I consider the number of anti-police-violence riots that have happened in this country for over a century, combine that with racist incarceration, cash bail exploitation, ongoing racist behavior by white supremacist America, "Justice?"  Where is this "Justice?"

Let's pardon some more Joe Arpaio's, Flynn's and Stone's.  Justice, you say ...
[fon‌t=Arial Black]... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.[/font]
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#36
(06-17-2020, 04:27 PM)TnT Wrote:
(06-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I trust that humans have evolved in the past and will continue to do so, generally speaking. I see that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Democracy in The West and in its former colonies is evidence of this, and so is that much-hated organization the United Nations. Wars still happen but are declining.

"Democracy in the West?"  It doesn't seem to be doing very well right now.

Justice?  When I consider the number of anti-police-violence riots that have happened in this country for over a century, combine that with racist incarceration, cash bail exploitation, ongoing racist behavior by white supremacist America, "Justice?"  Where is this "Justice?"

Let's pardon some more Joe Arpaio's, Flynn's and Stone's.  Justice, you say ...

In a way, Trump energized his opposition more than any other force possibly could.  He's so obnoxious, overbearing and out of touch, that anyone with a functioning brain stem and even a slightly open mind is repulsed.  If we're not totally unlucky, that may be enough.

Of course, getting rid of the Orange One is only the first step. The damage he's done is deep, and we were already on the wrong side of the progress curve before he made his appearance.  It will be 5-10 years getting to the right side of this.  I'm hoping to be there.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#37
(06-17-2020, 04:27 PM)TnT Wrote:
(06-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I trust that humans have evolved in the past and will continue to do so, generally speaking. I see that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Democracy in The West and in its former colonies is evidence of this, and so is that much-hated organization the United Nations. Wars still happen but are declining.

"Democracy in the West?"  It doesn't seem to be doing very well right now.

Justice?  When I consider the number of anti-police-violence riots that have happened in this country for over a century, combine that with racist incarceration, cash bail exploitation, ongoing racist behavior by white supremacist America, "Justice?"  Where is this "Justice?"

Let's pardon some more Joe Arpaio's, Flynn's and Stone's.  Justice, you say ...

Hey, the crisis heart is barely starting. The Agricultural Age was a mess. Each crisis and the last awakening addressed the major issues confronting the culture. The conservatives have the edge for most of the turnings, and each turning goes only so far before everyone turns their minds towards never again and infrastructure building. That means change is slow. A few issues at a time.

Still, now that the crisis heart is finally here, you can see what flaws are being addressed and how. One can see how racial injustice, the virus and sorta elitism are being addressed. These three fronts and the boots on the ground allergy to neocolonialism from Bush 43’s wars seem about right. We just need to stay the course.

The uncommitted issues right now are environmentalism and the elite influence over the government. There is time enough that one or both of these could be addressed should Biden win in the fall. The Republicans with their Tea Party influence seem to be more disgusted with their elites than the Democrats. I remain dubious that these issues will be addressed in this crisis.

But for early days, the crisis seems to be heading in the right direction. This is the wrong time to assume that nothing ever changes. This is time to hold onto your hat.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
Reply
#38
(06-15-2020, 04:13 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(06-14-2020, 04:13 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Tara -- learn Slovak. That is one way in which to show an intent to remain there. Czech or Polish would be more useful from a cultural standpoint because there is more literature in both, and Slovak is fairly close to both.

I am taking a course and am learning Slovak, but it is bloody hard. Totally foreign from english. I would have an easier time with German.

I congratulate you on the effort.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#39
(06-17-2020, 04:27 PM)TnT Wrote:
(06-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I trust that humans have evolved in the past and will continue to do so, generally speaking. I see that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Democracy in The West and in its former colonies is evidence of this, and so is that much-hated organization the United Nations. Wars still happen but are declining.

"Democracy in the West?"  It doesn't seem to be doing very well right now.

Justice?  When I consider the number of anti-police-violence riots that have happened in this country for over a century, combine that with racist incarceration, cash bail exploitation, ongoing racist behavior by white supremacist America, "Justice?"  Where is this "Justice?"

Let's pardon some more Joe Arpaio's, Flynn's and Stone's.  Justice, you say ...

TnT. Haven't seen you here in a while :Smile wb

No, it isn't doing well right now. I do have crystal ball though, remember? You may remember that for decades I have predicted the 2020s will be progressive. It already seems to be happening. So, Democracy will recover.

Justice? The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends there.

More brutal cops getting charged. Justice is making a comeback.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#40
The race and culture mix will continue. It doesn't happen often in the first generation, but in the second or third, it often does. America is the future in this respect. It will happen more slowly in some countries. The change may be unpleasant or inconvenient for many. I know I don't always relate to the fact that I grew up in a majority white city and now live in a plurality-asian and minority white city in CA, and it's the same city. In such a trend as global race and culture mixing, it's a long-term deal, with many stops and starts along the way. It is as inevitable as flights from New York to Beijing and Tokyo. We are one global civilization already, and have been for over a century. You can feel it if you pat attention. The one great world soul blooming in our time. The men died in the trenches of WWI to give birth to the first world government, and it will expand. And so will freedom and justice.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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