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Time to END racism
#21
(07-05-2020, 12:33 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: It made me think once that we could create any kind of utopia we want, if we just believe it's possible. Woodstock proved it.

It is one thing to create a spirit, another to make it sustainable. One of the next rock concerts after Woodstock hired the Hells Angels as security, and for some reason the movement of Woodstock, as wonderful as it was, died. The Summer of Love was also the Summer of Charles Manson.

Alas, utopias have to exist in the real world, and the real world has this way of infringing.
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#22
(07-05-2020, 10:39 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: ... For most of human existence, violence and treating the other poorly were survival traits.  Doing horrible things well increased the chance of passing on one’s gene pool.  If your culture was not good at making war, at securing a territory and resources, one lost out to another culture that was better at these things.  At the same time, helping one’s own tribe cooperate, grow and love was also a survival trait.  Thus, Man in a contradictory beast, quite able to love and hate, and not yet able to outgrow the hate.

What to do about it?  Once in a life time one is apt to live through a crisis heart.  It is a chance to get rid of a few more cultural traits left from the bad old days intent to harm the other guy, to keep him other rather than one of us.

This is one of those times.

The real issue is staying power.  As you noted, and I agree, we're wired to favor our own.  That will not go away unless there is no reason for favoritism.  Can we get there?  If so, how? 

I don't see attacking racism head-on as a viable approach, because that implies that Group X needs to do something for Group Y, and Group X will sacrifice in the process.  Since there is no apparent countervailing benefit to Group X, Group X will resist, at least in part.  Allow to stew for 10-20 years, and we're right back where we started -- or worse.

So the first step, or a parallel one at least, requires reducing the need for conflict. That's a much bigger task.  Flattening the wealth curve through non-racial means is a good thing, but may not be adequate.  On the other hand, what do we have to lose?  Any gain is better than nothing.  Any ideas anyone?
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#23
(Yesterday, 11:06 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(07-05-2020, 10:39 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: ... For most of human existence, violence and treating the other poorly were survival traits.  Doing horrible things well increased the chance of passing on one’s gene pool.  If your culture was not good at making war, at securing a territory and resources, one lost out to another culture that was better at these things.  At the same time, helping one’s own tribe cooperate, grow and love was also a survival trait.  Thus, Man in a contradictory beast, quite able to love and hate, and not yet able to outgrow the hate.

What to do about it?  Once in a life time one is apt to live through a crisis heart.  It is a chance to get rid of a few more cultural traits left from the bad old days intent to harm the other guy, to keep him other rather than one of us.

This is one of those times.

The real issue is staying power.  As you noted, and I agree, we're wired to favor our own.  That will not go away unless there is no reason for favoritism.  Can we get there?  If so, how? 

I don't see attacking racism head-on as a viable approach, because that implies that Group X needs to do something for Group Y, and Group X will sacrifice in the process.  Since there is no apparent countervailing benefit to Group X, Group X will resist, at least in part.  Allow to stew for 10-20 years, and we're right back where we started -- or worse.

So the first step, or a parallel one at least, requires reducing the need for conflict. That's a much bigger task.  Flattening the wealth curve through non-racial means is a good thing, but may not be adequate.  On the other hand, what do we have to lose?  Any gain is better than nothing.  Any ideas anyone?

What we have going on right now is something similar to the early to mid 1960s, say circa 1962-1966, when the prevailing persuasion from the media and authorities is that racism is wrong and that we're all in this life together. How long that prevailing rhetoric remains dominant in the next few years is hard to tell, since people like Trump can arouse opposite sentiments and make some headway, especially if some real changes begin to be made that make the white people uncomfortable (such as higher taxes, which in reality we really need given the stimulus/recovery spending going on and debt piling up). I expect the counter-trump trend could have some sway over the next few months. But the newly-dominant anti-racist tone and mood could largely prevail during the 2020s, especially if a powerful right-wing countervailing racist/semi-racist/closet racist/gun totin' militant rebellion arises and has to be suppressed by a dominant left-wing state mid-decade. 

That could put racism almost out of business for another decade, and more pressures will be applied in the 2T once it starts circa 2046. Along with this will be the long term trend toward globalization and race-mixing, which cannot be stopped. Counter to this trend is the ancient tendency to fear and mistreat other people and other groups, which will keep racism going at some level for perhaps centuries more, and periodic treatments and changes will be needed to keep the new ways flowing forth. And we humans keep finding new ways to fight with each other, even after racism is no longer one of them.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#24
(Yesterday, 01:11 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(07-05-2020, 12:33 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: It made me think once that we could create any kind of utopia we want, if we just believe it's possible. Woodstock proved it.

It is one thing to create a spirit, another to make it sustainable.  One of the next rock concerts after Woodstock hired the Hells Angels as security, and for some reason the movement of Woodstock, as wonderful as it was, died.  The Summer of Love was also the Summer of Charles Manson.

Alas, utopias have to exist in the real world, and the real world has this way of infringing.


Died, perhaps, as a dominant trend, but even so rainbow gatherings and grateful dead concerts and other music festivals continued the same spirit for a couple of decades afterward. It seemed all but dead later after Mr. Garcia died, but then the rave scene exploded and we had a second summer of love a few years later! So, the spirit lies in waiting to appear again, anytime  Smile  Utopia? Maybe not. But the legacy continues..... reverberates.... http://generational-theory.com/forum/thr...l#pid50881

The word "utopia" means no place. It doesn't really exist, except in that wonderous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. But, imagination creates some reality!
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#25
(Yesterday, 12:00 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(Yesterday, 11:06 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(07-05-2020, 10:39 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: ... For most of human existence, violence and treating the other poorly were survival traits.  Doing horrible things well increased the chance of passing on one’s gene pool.  If your culture was not good at making war, at securing a territory and resources, one lost out to another culture that was better at these things.  At the same time, helping one’s own tribe cooperate, grow and love was also a survival trait.  Thus, Man in a contradictory beast, quite able to love and hate, and not yet able to outgrow the hate.

What to do about it?  Once in a life time one is apt to live through a crisis heart.  It is a chance to get rid of a few more cultural traits left from the bad old days intent to harm the other guy, to keep him other rather than one of us.

This is one of those times.

The real issue is staying power.  As you noted, and I agree, we're wired to favor our own.  That will not go away unless there is no reason for favoritism.  Can we get there?  If so, how? 

I don't see attacking racism head-on as a viable approach, because that implies that Group X needs to do something for Group Y, and Group X will sacrifice in the process.  Since there is no apparent countervailing benefit to Group X, Group X will resist, at least in part.  Allow to stew for 10-20 years, and we're right back where we started -- or worse.

So the first step, or a parallel one at least, requires reducing the need for conflict. That's a much bigger task.  Flattening the wealth curve through non-racial means is a good thing, but may not be adequate.  On the other hand, what do we have to lose?  Any gain is better than nothing.  Any ideas anyone?

What we have going on right now is something similar to the early to mid 1960s, say circa 1962-1966, when the prevailing persuasion from the media and authorities is that racism is wrong and that we're all in this life together. How long that prevailing rhetoric remains dominant in the next few years is hard to tell, since people like Trump can arouse opposite sentiments and make some headway, especially if some real changes begin to be made that make the white people uncomfortable (such as higher taxes, which in reality we really need given the stimulus/recovery spending going on and debt piling up). I expect the counter-trump trend could have some sway over the next few months. But the newly-dominant anti-racist tone and mood could largely prevail during the 2020s, especially if a powerful right-wing countervailing racist/semi-racist/closet racist/gun totin' militant rebellion arises and has to be suppressed by a dominant left-wing state mid-decade. 

That could put racism almost out of business for another decade, and more pressures will be applied in the 2T once it starts circa 2046. Along with this will be the long term trend toward globalization and race-mixing, which cannot be stopped. Counter to this trend is the ancient tendency to fear and mistreat other people and other groups, which will keep racism going at some level for perhaps centuries more, and periodic treatments and changes will be needed to keep the new ways flowing forth. And we humans keep finding new ways to fight with each other, even after racism is no longer one of them.

We need an Everyone Wins strategy, which is hard to conjure.  Anand Giridharadas covers some of this in his writings. I saw him interviewed today on MSNBC, and he noted that this time is unique in having so many existential crises staring at us at once. He believes that this may be one of the few times in history that there is no place to hide, and real change may happen because nothing else will work. Let's hope he's right.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#26
An unbiased and concise documentary about Woodstock





What does Woodstock mean 5 decades later?



"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply


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