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The cancer infecting the political Left
#21
(07-25-2020, 04:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I had already refuted all of your claims that you have made here again. The question is why you want to think this way.

The right-wing is on the way out. Demographics are against them, and it consists of older people. Red states are turning purple and purple states are turning blue.

Deposing Trump provides a chance for the republic to return to democracy and normal behavior. Whether this also provides a path for progress to return after 40 years of regression and stalemate will be up to the people and their leaders. But that is what I am still predicting will happen. A nation cannot remain in neutral or reverse forever and still prosper. The question is why you ignore this problem and why you want the stalemate to continue indefinitely.

The pandemic and the black lives matter movement provides an opening for progress, and a return to government that can act and be empowered and controlled by an active citizenry, and it will need to encompass many other issues too if our republic is to get off the dime and move again. We on the left can form alliances and address these concerns and ideals and move forward again, and then there won't be such an impulse among some to, as you see it, just tear down the country. What needs to be torn down are the barriers to progress which the right-wing has put up over the last 40 years of Reaganomics. That many whites are marching with blacks now shows the potential for these alliances.
Who made you God? Do you really have the power to refute me or Micky ? Yes. The demographic's may seem to favor the Left at the moment democratically speaking. I don't think you are aware of how many minorities have advanced beyond race and are currently American believers themselves. Hint: Democracy isn't much of a factor during times of Civil War and as far as war goes, the American right has a significant advantage over the Left. You must be aware that the Left controls larger cities that were mainly middle class at one time but no longer today.
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#22
(07-25-2020, 05:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Who made you God? Do you really have the power to refute me or Micky ? Yes. The demographic's may seem to favor the Left at the moment democratically speaking. I don't think you are aware of how many minorities have advanced beyond race and are currently American believers themselves. Hint: Democracy isn't much of a factor during times of Civil War and as far as war goes, the American right has a significant advantage over the Left. You must be aware that the Left controls larger cities that were mainly middle class at one time but no longer today.

It is kind of hard to criticize or advocate for the American believer if you don’t define the American believer,

I suspect that you are Tea Party leaning, that you are not therefore advocating for the elites.

I note that you do not go on racist rants, but you project a belief that blacks leech excessively on the government.  This is sort of borderline racist in that you have a negative stereotype of blacks.  I kind of believe there are some that fit this stereotype, and that you fill a niche where you run into these people a lot.  It is understandable that you have fallen into this habit and belief.

Me, working as a software engineer, I did not commonly run into such.  I have run into fellow engineers, which if anything have had to overcome a little prejudice and adversity, and are the stronger for overcoming it.  I have run into a few experienced military guys who spent some of their military careers in procurement.  Coming into civilian life, they got jobs on the other side, selling to the military, running projects from the systems side, which for me involved their acquiring the requirements that the software has to meet.  Thus, my idea of the typical black guy is quite different from your stereotype.  Watching you advocate the ghetto ethic as applicable to all blacks is painful.

But I could agree that welfare (if there is no permanent disability) should be a temporary effort to get you on your feet.  It should not be a permanent way of life.

On violence, the active conflict is Trumps no insignia people against the Boogaloo Bois.  Those attempting peaceful protest and wishing to defuse the violence ought to go after those few that are shooting fireworks into federal buildings.  They should make citizens arrests and hand them over to the authorities.  Right now, the shared common objective of the Boogaloo Bois and the Trump feds is to instigate violence.  They have found one way to do it.  The best way for the protests to get rid of Trump’s feds is to give them a little help in enforcing the law rather than letting the feds escalate it into general violence against everybody.  A little of this has been done already, but it has got to become a habit.

But I don’t see your ‘americans’ as being engaged beyond selfishness.  They might form neighborhood vigilante groups.  They might as militias be ready to defend the Second Amendment.  They are not rejecting the results of legitimate elections.  They are not invading blue neighborhoods and trying to change culture by force.  They have not been a significant participant, something to be worried about.

As far as I can tell, other than forming neighborhood vigilante groups, you are not advocating the violence.  Oh, you talk tough.  You are clearly obsessed by the abstract idea of it.  You have not taken it beyond talk.

The odd thing out is Trump.  In escalating violence, personal corruption, ignoring the virus and believing himself above the law, I read him as quite deserving of repudiation.  Most blues do.  Are you in favor of these things?  Are you still in favor of Trump?
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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#23
(07-25-2020, 05:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(07-25-2020, 04:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I had already refuted all of your claims that you have made here again. The question is why you want to think this way.

The right-wing is on the way out. Demographics are against them, and it consists of older people. Red states are turning purple and purple states are turning blue.

Deposing Trump provides a chance for the republic to return to democracy and normal behavior. Whether this also provides a path for progress to return after 40 years of regression and stalemate will be up to the people and their leaders. But that is what I am still predicting will happen. A nation cannot remain in neutral or reverse forever and still prosper. The question is why you ignore this problem and why you want the stalemate to continue indefinitely.

The pandemic and the black lives matter movement provides an opening for progress, and a return to government that can act and be empowered and controlled by an active citizenry, and it will need to encompass many other issues too if our republic is to get off the dime and move again. We on the left can form alliances and address these concerns and ideals and move forward again, and then there won't be such an impulse among some to, as you see it, just tear down the country. What needs to be torn down are the barriers to progress which the right-wing has put up over the last 40 years of Reaganomics. That many whites are marching with blacks now shows the potential for these alliances.

Who made you God? Do you really have the power to refute me or Micky ? Yes. The demographic's may seem to favor the Left at the moment democratically speaking. I don't think you are aware of how many minorities have advanced beyond race and are currently American believers themselves. Hint: Democracy isn't much of a factor during times of Civil War and as far as war goes, the American right has a significant advantage over the Left. You must be aware that the Left controls larger cities that were mainly middle class at one time but no longer today.

The rules of logic have been available for over 2000 years. They have not changed. Facts are there to be accepted or rejected. People are free reject the laws of logic and objective fact  if they wish to choose, but they are not free to avoid the consequences of their rejection of either or both. 

I see the gross misconduct of Donald Trump, and it all resembles dictatorial practice. The water cannons have yet to be used, but it looked much the same in Poland in the 1980's as it did in Kukluxistan in the early 1960's.

All that I ask is that the GOP go back to being humane and sane. We need that!
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#24
(07-25-2020, 06:10 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(07-25-2020, 05:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Who made you God? Do you really have the power to refute me or Micky ? Yes. The demographic's may seem to favor the Left at the moment democratically speaking. I don't think you are aware of how many minorities have advanced beyond race and are currently American believers themselves. Hint: Democracy isn't much of a factor during times of Civil War and as far as war goes, the American right has a significant advantage over the Left. You must be aware that the Left controls larger cities that were mainly middle class at one time but no longer today.

It is kind of hard to criticize or advocate for the American believer if you don’t define the American believer,

I suspect that you are Tea Party leaning, that you are not therefore advocating for the elites.

I note that you do not go on racist rants, but you project a belief that blacks leech excessively on the government.  This is sort of borderline racist in that you have a negative stereotype of blacks.  I kind of believe there are some that fit this stereotype, and that you fill a niche where you run into these people a lot.  It is understandable that you have fallen into this habit and belief.

Me, working as a software engineer, I did not commonly run into such.  I have run into fellow engineers, which if anything have had to overcome a little prejudice and adversity, and are the stronger for overcoming it.  I have run into a few experienced military guys who spent some of their military careers in procurement.  Coming into civilian life, they got jobs on the other side, selling to the military, running projects from the systems side, which for me involved their acquiring the requirements that the software has to meet.  Thus, my idea of the typical black guy is quite different from your stereotype.  Watching you advocate the ghetto ethic as applicable to all blacks is painful.

But I could agree that welfare (if there is no permanent disability) should be a temporary effort to get you on your feet.  It should not be a permanent way of life.

On violence, the active conflict is Trumps no insignia people against the Boogaloo Bois.  Those attempting peaceful protest and wishing to defuse the violence ought to go after those few that are shooting fireworks into federal buildings.  They should make citizens arrests and hand them over to the authorities.  Right now, the shared common objective of the Boogaloo Bois and the Trump feds is to instigate violence.  They have found one way to do it.  The best way for the protests to get rid of Trump’s feds is to give them a little help in enforcing the law rather than letting the feds escalate it into general violence against everybody.  A little of this has been done already, but it has got to become a habit.

But I don’t see your ‘americans’ as being engaged beyond selfishness.  They might form neighborhood vigilante groups.  They might as militias be ready to defend the Second Amendment.  They are not rejecting the results of legitimate elections.  They are not invading blue neighborhoods and trying to change culture by force.  They have not been a significant participant, something to be worried about.

As far as I can tell, other than forming neighborhood vigilante groups, you are not advocating the violence.  Oh, you talk tough.  You are clearly obsessed by the abstract idea of it.  You have not taken it beyond talk.

The odd thing out is Trump.  In escalating violence, personal corruption, ignoring the virus and believing himself above the law, I read him as quite deserving of repudiation.  Most blues do.  Are you in favor of these things?  Are you still in favor of Trump?
The American believes in America (the American people) through thick (good times) and thin (bad times) and believes in the American flag that represents American values and the American Constitution that governs over it and represents the Law of The Land. It's pretty simple. The lady on Fox expressed her belief in herself and belief in fellow Americans. Who/what is escalating the violence? Who is making money off the escalation of violence and who is capitulating right now? Well, the professional sports teams with billion dollar investments located in or near future war zones and blue states with significant investments in them as well seem to be paying out or sitting on their hands and doing nothing about those who are in their cities causing all the trouble.

Who is selfish? The store owner who invested in themselves and makes their living selling food or the employee who makes their living serving food or processing food or the COVID19 worrier who places themselves above them in an importance? Who is selfish? The person who believes society should/has an obligation to fund them or the person with financial responsibilities of their own who disagrees and places their obligations above them or the person who believes funding is an individual responsibility but is forced to along with funding them because liberal Democrats view them as selfish? You accuse me of selfishness as I'm seeing your obvious selfishness playing out so to speak. In short, the Democrats owe you something but I don't owe you shit at this point. You live in portion of the country that has historical significance or value placed on it that the West Coast doesn't have so if I were to have to choose between one or the other, you're in luck so to speak because we can't afford to support both selfish blue regions.

As far as Trump, Trump inherited a Democratic mess caused by political party addicted to spending American money and the power a clueless but loyal base of Americans gave them for a few generations to many in my opinion. I don't blame the COVID19 crisis or the government induced economic crisis on him. We all know where it came from and we all know China is responsible for its spread. You are about as locked as my rank and file Democratic father in law was before he lost his mind and was forced to stop voting. Personally, I'd rather have values than no values. I'd rather have a country than no country. I'd rather have law and order than anarchy or feudalism at this point. I don't see a need for a weak liberal leader either and I don't feel a need or desire to be nice and patch things up with the radical Left either.
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#25
(07-25-2020, 07:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Who is selfish? The store owner who invested in themselves and makes their living selling food or the employee who makes their living serving food or processing food or the COVID19 worrier who places themselves above them in an importance?

If you really believed in that, you would be against Trump.  He does not believe in the Constitution or rule of law.  He instead is into selfishness.  You seem to be his sort of guy.  Anyone can wave the flag.  As often as not, the flag waver isn’t worthy of the flag he is waving.  He is really after something.

(07-25-2020, 07:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Who is selfish? The person who believes society should/has an obligation to fund them or the person with financial responsibilities of their own who disagrees and places their obligations above them or the person who believes funding is an individual responsibility but is forced to along with funding them because liberal Democrats view them as selfish? You accuse me of selfishness as I'm seeing your obvious selfishness. In short, the Democrats owe you something but I don't owe you shit at this point. You live in portion of the country that has historical significance or value placed on it that the West Coast doesn't have so if I were to have to choose between one or the other, you're in luck so to speak because we can't afford to support both selfish blue regions.

I am all with the essential workers, the doctors, the nurses, the grocery retailers, etc…. Now more than ever we need them.  But they have to be responsible.  The grocery retailer who does not wear a mask for her own comfort, who does not clean her store, who goes short on her work selfishly and puts others at a deadly risk is no hero.

I also believe in the general principle of insurance.  For years I had health care as a benefit of my job and never had to use it.  The gross big deal was spraining my knee playing ultimate frisbee and limping around on crutches for a while.  Recently I had the brain tumor and became handicapped.  I didn’t whine in my early working years, and I don’t whine now.  In both cases, I had made sure I had coverage and the coverage came through.

I don’t see that as selfishness.  I see insurance or some sort of coverage tor problems as a feature, not a bug.  If someone believes in individual responsibility and wants to pay for his own accidents or illness, that might be acceptable, but if so he shouldn’t go whining and complaining if he stumbles into a hardship.  You can’t fail to pay into the system then expect that system to save you.  

The horror story is the guy who has no insurance and whose child coms up with some expensive condition.  He winds up bankrupt, loosing everything.  A person forced into taking such a risk is not fine and dandy to me.

Government has a problem in being expected to be responsible but at the same time giving no one the option of whether or not to pay for that assurance.  I know the UN declaration of human rights includes health care as one of those rights, but that is not so in the US.

Additionally, all men are created equal.  I don’t see California above Massachusetts or some random rural state.  That is the sort of way you think.  And you know what state is the biggest agricultural producer?  California.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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#26
(07-25-2020, 06:30 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The rules of logic have been available for over 2000 years. They have not changed. Facts are there to be accepted or rejected. People are free reject the laws of logic and objective fact  if they wish to choose, but they are not free to avoid the consequences of their rejection of either or both. 

I see the gross misconduct of Donald Trump, and it all resembles dictatorial practice. The water cannons have yet to be used, but it looked much the same in Poland in the 1980's as it did in Kukluxistan in the early 1960's.

All that I ask is that the GOP go back to being humane and sane. We need that!
You see the misconduct of Trump but you missed the greater act of misconduct by the liberal Democrats in the House when it voted to impeach Trump. Like I said, we are going to teach your side a lesson about America come November and if you want to along with the radical Left and continue to post along with them then don't be surprised when I start coming down on you harder than I've ever come down on you before and start terrorizing you more than I've ever terrorized you before and start using all of coarse terms and heavy hard hitting language like you've never seen before either because we will be at war at that point and this isn't Iraq. DO YOU GET IT!!!!!!!
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#27
(07-25-2020, 09:03 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You see the misconduct of Trump but you missed the greater act of misconduct by the liberal Democrats in the House when it voted to impeach Trump. Like I said, we are going to teach your side a lesson about America come November and if you want to along with the radical Left and continue to post along with them then don't be surprised when I start coming down on you harder than I've ever come down on you before and start terrorizing you more than I've ever terrorized you before and start using all of coarse terms and heavy hard hitting language like you've never seen before either because we will be at war at that point and this isn't Iraq. DO YOU GET IT!!!!!!!

Well, no. If you are for the Constitution and rule of law, you have to impeach. You have to view the Republican senators as having greater loyalty to Trump than the Constitution, enough to disregard their oaths of office and impeachment.

His COVID 19 response is killing thousands day. His corruption is obvious. He is using violence to suppress minorities and acquire continued power. He is driving red people to blue. Even those who still lean red will understand why their fellow rural folks voted Democratic this time.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
Reply
#28
(07-25-2020, 08:33 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I am all with the essential workers, the doctors, the nurses, the grocery retailers, etc…. Now more than ever we need them.  But they have to be responsible.  The grocery retailer who does not wear a mask for her own comfort, who does not clean her store, who goes short on her work selfishly and puts others at a deadly risk is no hero.

I also believe in the general principle of insurance.  For years I had health care as a benefit of my job and never had to use it.  The gross big deal was spraining my knee playing ultimate frisbee and limping around on crutches for a while.  Recently I had the brain tumor and became handicapped.  I didn’t whine in my early working years, and I don’t whine now.  In both cases, I had made sure I had coverage and the coverage came through.

I don’t see that as selfishness.  I see insurance or some sort of coverage tor problems as a feature, not a bug.  If someone believes in individual responsibility and wants to pay for his own accidents or illness, that might be acceptable, but if so he shouldn’t go whining and complaining if he stumbles into a hardship.  You can’t fail to pay into the system then expect that system to save you.  

The horror story is the guy who has no insurance and whose child coms up with some expensive condition.  He winds up bankrupt, loosing everything.  A person forced into taking such a risk is not fine and dandy to me.

Government has a problem in being expected to be responsible but at the same time giving no one the option of whether or not to pay for that assurance.  I know the UN declaration of human rights includes health care as one of those rights, but that is not so in the US.

Additionally, all men are created equal.  I don’t see California above Massachusetts or some random rural state.  That is the sort of way you think.  And you know what state is the biggest agricultural producer?  California.
I don't need Trump as much as you need Biden. I see that you support all the essential workers that you need to survive but what about all the other essential workers who need each other to survive. Have you forgotten about all of them or don't they matter as much to you right now. I don't know an American worker who is not essential. Back in the day, I took a voluntary layoff so a fellow family man could remain working full time. Well, we may all be born equals but we don't all remain or end up as equals. The world seem to be separating between the equals and non equals, the have and have nots, the cavaliers and the city on the hills, the workers and the non workers and so forth.

Yes. I saw one nasty softball related accident involving an uninsured softball player that caused a serious brain injury in twelve years of playing softball one or two nights a week and playing on weekends in tournaments. Like you, I got injured playing softball and suffered from a nagging lower back injury for a couple years. I hung up my softball cleats during my mid thirties. I would have had to adjust my style of play to continue playing which would have taken the fun out of the game for me anyway. So, I hung them up and moved on to other interests. Like you, I had work related health insurance provided by an employer. Later on, I had work related insurance associated with my business for it's employees that the full sum came out of my paycheck. Full sum, as in the full amount to cover the cost of insuring me, wife and child.

I see two dominant Liberal cultures or blue regions. I'm sorry but there isn't enough Liberal's in Minnesota to win a battle with the right libertarians and conservatives. Right now, Minneapolis is going to shit and  we have Minneapolis people telling us we have to do something about all the homeless living in its parks who are dangerous and scaring locals who live in good neighborhoods. You're lucky, you live in the Liberal region that has more historical significance to Americans than the West Coast. I suspect, the farmers in California will opt to remain with America and put in a request for American troops to come in and help them defend their areas.
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#29
(07-25-2020, 05:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(07-25-2020, 04:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I had already refuted all of your claims that you have made here again. The question is why you want to think this way.

The right-wing is on the way out. Demographics are against them, and it consists of older people. Red states are turning purple and purple states are turning blue.

Deposing Trump provides a chance for the republic to return to democracy and normal behavior. Whether this also provides a path for progress to return after 40 years of regression and stalemate will be up to the people and their leaders. But that is what I am still predicting will happen. A nation cannot remain in neutral or reverse forever and still prosper. The question is why you ignore this problem and why you want the stalemate to continue indefinitely.

The pandemic and the black lives matter movement provides an opening for progress, and a return to government that can act and be empowered and controlled by an active citizenry, and it will need to encompass many other issues too if our republic is to get off the dime and move again. We on the left can form alliances and address these concerns and ideals and move forward again, and then there won't be such an impulse among some to, as you see it, just tear down the country. What needs to be torn down are the barriers to progress which the right-wing has put up over the last 40 years of Reaganomics. That many whites are marching with blacks now shows the potential for these alliances.
Who made you God? Do you really have the power to refute me or Mickey ?


Of course I do. That is real easy, even for a pathetic liberal like me.

To make you REALIZE that you have been refuted, maybe that's when I would need God's help.

Quote:Yes. The demographic's may seem to favor the Left at the moment democratically speaking. I don't think you are aware of how many minorities have advanced beyond race and are currently American believers themselves. Hint: Democracy isn't much of a factor during times of Civil War and as far as war goes, the American right has a significant advantage over the Left. You must be aware that the Left controls larger cities that were mainly middle class at one time but no longer today.

The larger cities have changed in different directions. Some have been increasingly hollowed out until they have more poor non-whites, but more often they have been gentrified and have more middle and upper classes than decades ago, even if still diverse.

Be that as it may, a civil war would not be decided by which people have the most guns. It will be decided by which people have the state, and that will be decided at-least semi-democratically, although your side can cheat or otherwise take advantage of the system that favors your side.

Since you can't define "american believers," I can claim them for my side rather than yours. But one thing you can hope for is if "minorities" (an outdated term) get more prosperous, they might get more conservative. But they have formed a habit of voting Democratic for a long time now, and in this era prosperity is still not spreading very far, and will NOT do so as long as your side's Reaganomics ideology remains in charge, whose purpose is to inflate the wealth and power of the already wealthy and powerful.

I suspect it will take most of the 4T to get it out of power, and then you can hope that further activism won't be needed for a while during the 1T. THEN today's rising ethnic groups might get more conservative as they age. But this may take 20 years or more. By that time too, or soon thereafter, another prophet generation will come along to start challenging authority again.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#30
(07-25-2020, 10:02 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(07-25-2020, 09:03 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You see the misconduct of Trump but you missed the greater act of misconduct by the liberal Democrats in the House when it voted to impeach Trump. Like I said, we are going to teach your side a lesson about America come November and if you want to along with the radical Left and continue to post along with them then don't be surprised when I start coming down on you harder than I've ever come down on you before and start terrorizing you more than I've ever terrorized you before and start using all of coarse terms and heavy hard hitting language like you've never seen before either because we will be at war at that point and this isn't Iraq. DO YOU GET IT!!!!!!!

Well, no.  If you are for the Constitution and rule of law, you have to impeach.  You have to view the Republican senators as having greater loyalty to Trump than the Constitution, enough to disregard their oaths of office and impeachment.

His COVID 19 response is killing thousands day.  His corruption is obvious.  He is using violence to suppress minorities and acquire continued power.  He is driving red people to blue.  Even those who still lean red will understand why their fellow rural folks voted Democratic this time.
He's driving old big government bureaucrats like Colin Powell to the side where he belongs because he wouldn't have been a one star general telling us how the war effort was going during the first Iraq War and later the Secretary of State who was telling us about all the WMD's that our troops were going to find hidden in Iraq. Yep. He belongs on the same side as the sore losers and liars.
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#31
(07-25-2020, 09:03 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(07-25-2020, 06:30 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The rules of logic have been available for over 2000 years. They have not changed. Facts are there to be accepted or rejected. People are free reject the laws of logic and objective fact  if they wish to choose, but they are not free to avoid the consequences of their rejection of either or both. 

I see the gross misconduct of Donald Trump, and it all resembles dictatorial practice. The water cannons have yet to be used, but it looked much the same in Poland in the 1980's as it did in Kukluxistan in the early 1960's.

All that I ask is that the GOP go back to being humane and sane. We need that!

You see the misconduct of Trump but you missed the greater act of misconduct by the liberal Democrats in the House when it voted to impeach Trump.

Trying to blackmail the President of another country to interfere in the US election made impeachment a necessity. Even if the Democrats failed to get an impeachment in the Senate, the defense of Trump was strictly on Party lines. 

It's moot now. That's nothing in contrast to the bungled response to COVID-19. 

Quote:Like I said, we are going to teach your side a lesson about America come November and if you want to along with the radical Left and continue to post along with them then don't be surprised when I start coming down on you harder than I've ever come down on you before and start terrorizing you more than I've ever terrorized you before and start using all of coarse terms and heavy hard hitting language like you've never seen before either because we will be at war at that point and this isn't Iraq. DO YOU GET IT!!!!!!!

Your idea of what constitutes America and my idea of what constitutes America are utterly incompatible.  

I'm not all that radical. I now find that the best arguments against Donald Trump are conservative arguments. The next best are statistical arguments. 

It's late July, and the polls generally show him losing by a huge margin.  The calendar is becoming the definitive enemy of the Trump campaign. The campaign might tighten up as Biden concentrates on ensuring a narrower but more certain win .

Team Biden might compare to a football team with a big lead, but not one yet decisive because it is too early. Maybe Trump gets to consolidate wins in state that he must win yet not enough to get to 270 electoral votes. But if Trump gambles he wastes resources on states that are extreme long-shots for him. If he loses those, then he opens states that he absolutely must win well short of 270 for him  -- like Texas. So he plays for Minnesota and loses Texas. 270 or 420 for Biden -- the legal consequences are the same. He will be President. 

OH, by the way -- you do not want to argue with me on statistics and probability.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#32
(07-25-2020, 09:03 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(07-25-2020, 06:30 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The rules of logic have been available for over 2000 years. They have not changed. Facts are there to be accepted or rejected. People are free reject the laws of logic and objective fact  if they wish to choose, but they are not free to avoid the consequences of their rejection of either or both. 

I see the gross misconduct of Donald Trump, and it all resembles dictatorial practice. The water cannons have yet to be used, but it looked much the same in Poland in the 1980's as it did in Kukluxistan in the early 1960's.

All that I ask is that the GOP go back to being humane and sane. We need that!
You see the misconduct of Trump but you missed the greater act of misconduct by the liberal Democrats in the House when it voted to impeach Trump. Like I said, we are going to teach your side a lesson about America come November and if you want to (go) along with the radical Left and continue to post along with them then don't be surprised when I start coming down on you harder than I've ever come down on you before and start terrorizing you more than I've ever terrorized you before and start using all of coarse terms and heavy hard hitting language like you've never seen before either because we will be at war at that point and this isn't Iraq. DO YOU GET IT!!!!!!!

I get it. If you guys win, Trump's terror and cruelty will be fully unleashed, and so will that of his cult followers and storm troopers like you. I hope more people get it, and vote accordingly: to send him packing, willingly or not.

Of course, I suppose this cruelty might occur whether Trump wins or loses. But, if he loses, then more often you guys will pay the full price for your cruelty and terror.

It's not looking good for you guys.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...-6179.html
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#33
(07-25-2020, 06:30 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(07-25-2020, 05:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(07-25-2020, 04:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I had already refuted all of your claims that you have made here again. The question is why you want to think this way.

The right-wing is on the way out. Demographics are against them, and it consists of older people. Red states are turning purple and purple states are turning blue.

Deposing Trump provides a chance for the republic to return to democracy and normal behavior. Whether this also provides a path for progress to return after 40 years of regression and stalemate will be up to the people and their leaders. But that is what I am still predicting will happen. A nation cannot remain in neutral or reverse forever and still prosper. The question is why you ignore this problem and why you want the stalemate to continue indefinitely.

The pandemic and the black lives matter movement provides an opening for progress, and a return to government that can act and be empowered and controlled by an active citizenry, and it will need to encompass many other issues too if our republic is to get off the dime and move again. We on the left can form alliances and address these concerns and ideals and move forward again, and then there won't be such an impulse among some to, as you see it, just tear down the country. What needs to be torn down are the barriers to progress which the right-wing has put up over the last 40 years of Reaganomics. That many whites are marching with blacks now shows the potential for these alliances.

Who made you God? Do you really have the power to refute me or Micky ? Yes. The demographic's may seem to favor the Left at the moment democratically speaking. I don't think you are aware of how many minorities have advanced beyond race and are currently American believers themselves. Hint: Democracy isn't much of a factor during times of Civil War and as far as war goes, the American right has a significant advantage over the Left. You must be aware that the Left controls larger cities that were mainly middle class at one time but no longer today.

The rules of logic have been available for over 2000 years. They have not changed. Facts are there to be accepted or rejected. People are free reject the laws of logic and objective fact  if they wish to choose, but they are not free to avoid the consequences of their rejection of either or both. 

I see the gross misconduct of Donald Trump, and it all resembles dictatorial practice. The water cannons have yet to be used, but it looked much the same in Poland in the 1980's as it did in Kukluxistan in the early 1960's.

All that I ask is that the GOP go back to being humane and sane. We need that!

That is a tall order. They would have to go back as they were before about July 1964.

Their last sanity was for many of them to vote for the civil rights bill. Their insanity began with Goldwater's nomination. I do admit some sane acts did manage to get through from Nixon, but on balance, he and his party had gone over the edge at that point.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#34
(07-26-2020, 01:17 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Your idea of what constitutes America and my idea of what constitutes America are utterly incompatible.  

I'm not all that radical. I now find that the best arguments against Donald Trump are conservative arguments. The next best are statistical arguments. 

It's late July, and the polls generally show him losing by a huge margin.  The calendar is becoming the definitive enemy of the Trump campaign. The campaign might tighten up as Biden concentrates on ensuring a narrower but more certain win .

Team Biden might compare to a football team with a big lead, but not one yet decisive because it is too early. Maybe Trump gets to consolidate wins in state that he must win yet not enough to get to 270 electoral votes. But if Trump gambles he wastes resources on states that are extreme long-shots for him. If he loses those, then he opens states that he absolutely must win well short of 270 for him  -- like Texas. So he plays for Minnesota and loses Texas. 270 or 420 for Biden -- the legal consequences are the same. He will be President. 

OH, by the way -- you do not want to argue with me on statistics and probability.
Agreed. We are incompatible. In the real world, people who are incompatible get divorces, agree to split and go separate ways, cut bait and leave it up to fate or use force to eliminate the other. I already won by defeating a Liberal forum. Hint: You had me banned. Did it work or did it eliminate your protector? It's not a coincidence that the moderator who banned me was fired.
Reply
#35
(07-26-2020, 02:10 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(07-25-2020, 09:03 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(07-25-2020, 06:30 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The rules of logic have been available for over 2000 years. They have not changed. Facts are there to be accepted or rejected. People are free reject the laws of logic and objective fact  if they wish to choose, but they are not free to avoid the consequences of their rejection of either or both. 

I see the gross misconduct of Donald Trump, and it all resembles dictatorial practice. The water cannons have yet to be used, but it looked much the same in Poland in the 1980's as it did in Kukluxistan in the early 1960's.

All that I ask is that the GOP go back to being humane and sane. We need that!
You see the misconduct of Trump but you missed the greater act of misconduct by the liberal Democrats in the House when it voted to impeach Trump. Like I said, we are going to teach your side a lesson about America come November and if you want to (go) along with the radical Left and continue to post along with them then don't be surprised when I start coming down on you harder than I've ever come down on you before and start terrorizing you more than I've ever terrorized you before and start using all of coarse terms and heavy hard hitting language like you've never seen before either because we will be at war at that point and this isn't Iraq. DO YOU GET IT!!!!!!!

I get it. If you guys win, Trump's terror and cruelty will be fully unleashed, and so will that of his cult followers and storm troopers like you. I hope more people get it, and vote accordingly: to send him packing, willingly or not.

Of course, I suppose this cruelty might occur whether Trump wins or loses. But, if he loses, then more often you guys will pay the full price for your cruelty and terror.

It's not looking good for you guys.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...-6179.html
Well, if he wins then you lose and to deal with another major setback. Honestly, it was looking much worse for us the last time.
Reply
#36
(07-26-2020, 01:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's driving old big government bureaucrats like Colin Powell to the side where he belongs because he wouldn't have been a one star general telling us how the war effort was going during the first Iraq War and later the Secretary of State who was telling us about all the WMD's that our troops were going to find hidden in Iraq. Yep. He belongs on the same side as the sore losers and liars.

This is not about Colin Powel. This is about Trump. I note you went on to someone else rather than defend Trump. I don't know that he is defendable.

The Republicans are the side of the liars, whether it is Bush 43 about finding the WMDs, or Trump having a tendency to move his lips. Sore loosers? We'll see how Trump does.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
Reply
#37
(07-25-2020, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't need Trump as much as you need Biden.

Who does need Trump these days?  Trump?

(07-25-2020, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I see that you support all the essential workers that you need to survive but what about all the other essential workers who need each other to survive. Have you forgotten about all of them or don't they matter as much to you right now. I don't know an American worker who is not essential.

I am concerned for the economy.  The old economy seemed to depend on flipping burgers or selling jewelry.  Folks are not willing to adjust the usual work week or retirement age.  There is much to be done to transform to a new economy.  I have often described what must be done and watched you not address it.  You just daydream about taking the cycles backwards.  It doesn't work that way.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
Reply
#38
(07-26-2020, 03:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(07-26-2020, 01:17 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Your idea of what constitutes America and my idea of what constitutes America are utterly incompatible.  

I'm not all that radical. I now find that the best arguments against Donald Trump are conservative arguments. The next best are statistical arguments. 

It's late July, and the polls generally show him losing by a huge margin.  The calendar is becoming the definitive enemy of the Trump campaign. The campaign might tighten up as Biden concentrates on ensuring a narrower but more certain win .

Team Biden might compare to a football team with a big lead, but not one yet decisive because it is too early. Maybe Trump gets to consolidate wins in state that he must win yet not enough to get to 270 electoral votes. But if Trump gambles he wastes resources on states that are extreme long-shots for him. If he loses those, then he opens states that he absolutely must win well short of 270 for him  -- like Texas. So he plays for Minnesota and loses Texas. 270 or 420 for Biden -- the legal consequences are the same. He will be President. 

OH, by the way -- you do not want to argue with me on statistics and probability.

Agreed. We are incompatible. In the real world, people who are incompatible get divorces, agree to split and go separate ways, cut bait and leave it up to fate or use force to eliminate the other. I already won by defeating a Liberal forum. Hint: You had me banned. Did it work or did it eliminate your protector? It's not a coincidence that the moderator who banned me was fired.

Another poster and I asked that your previous incarnation be banned when it called for someone to commit suicide. I complained to the moderator about that, and suggested that you might not be in such trouble with me if you rescinded the offending post and apologized. Many times we post what we might regret later.  I did not need protection: I thought that someone else might have needed some protection. Besides, I thought that a benign correction of your then-incarnation was apt and perhaps even beneficial to you. The cost of divesting oneself of a bad habit is usually well worth freedom from that bad habit.

There have been times when someone called attention to me that I had gone too far... and I backed down. I deleted or modified the post or apologized for what I had said. But I am going to hurt some feelings at times.  I know that. 

As someone with Asperger's syndrome I might see things more literally than others.  Even so, I could not see what was said as harmless. I might have accepted "Kill that character"... which I can imagine with a film director doing with a character in the script who is dragging a screenplay into a muddle. Just think of "Ugarte" (Peter Lorre) in Casablanca.  The character makes his point quickly as one who steals from people in distress and sanctimoniously blames the victims for being his victims. "Ugarte" had to be killed at some point; he was an odious character, and it would have been all to easy to have him collaborating with the Germans and mucking up the story. After all, he had the precious exit passes critical to the story, Casablanca is my favorite movie, and I have described its script as being the sort that Shakespeare would have written as a screenplay had he been active in the early-middle decades of the 20th century. Yes, Shakespeare had no qualms about killing a character when such was essential to the success of his plays. 

I see death, except as a literary or stage device, too serious to treat lightly. We all make mistakes, and your previous incarnation made a big -- but not irredeemable one. It could have said "I did not mean that literally" or "Gee, it is unfortunate that we have some moralizers who can't recognize a joke for what it is". But that was some time ago. My father was alive then and still had his mental capacities and moral compass. I told him what I did in seeking the poster banned. He concurred with me. It is terribly wrong to urge someone to commit suicide, and if one is successful in urging someone to do so, then one is culpable at the least of manslaughter. I may have an inadequate sense of humor, but I have some moral sensibilities.

(OK, I did cheer when Charles Manson and Saddam Hussein departed This World and went to the world of demons in which they would far better fit... but that involves extreme cases of unmitigated and inexcusable evil. But most of us could understand that).  

... the problem isn't your disagreement with me; it is with your disagreement with statistical inferences that do not depend upon any personality. If it were Hillary Clinton down by ten points or so against a Republican challenger this time at this stage, then I would be hedging my personal life upon the near-certainty of a win by the Republican nominee for President. Politically I would be trying to rescue what I could, like vulnerable incumbents.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


Reply
#39
(07-26-2020, 04:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(07-26-2020, 01:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's driving old big government bureaucrats like Colin Powell to the side where he belongs because he wouldn't have been a one star general telling us how the war effort was going during the first Iraq War and later the Secretary of State who was telling us about all the WMD's that our troops were going to find hidden in Iraq. Yep. He belongs on the same side as the sore losers and liars.

This is not about Colin Powel.  This is about Trump.  I note you went on to someone else rather than defend Trump.  I don't know that he is defendable.

The Republicans are the side of the liars, whether it is Bush 43 about finding the WMDs, or Trump having a tendency to move his lips.  Sore loosers?  We'll see how Trump does.
Reply
#40
Biden and Trump are both terrible and the very fact of their nominations is a testament to the decay at the heart of the United States.
Reply


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