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Modern Art is Sh*t
#21
(05-22-2016, 10:49 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:
(05-22-2016, 10:11 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: A work by Matisse or Picasso is not a masterpiece simply due to the signature (essentially a trademark). One can debase a trademark by debasing the object to fit a mass market (the analogy is to Marantz stereo equipment, very good into the early 'Seventies before some bean-counters chose to simply slap the name onto some low-end schlock for people living in tiny apartments and having no ear for music). The trademark died, and some have tried to revive it. The new Marantz equipment is pricey stuff apparently for high-end listeners.

True but that isn't how Art Snobs think. They are all about the trade mark because much of what passes for modern art is not art. I remember about 15 years ago the local pbs channel was having their auction and my mother was going on about some plates Picasso apparently painted. I looked at them, they were shown on the TV for people to call in and bid. It literally looked like someone had taken a white plate and used finger paints to draw a smiley face on it that was less realistic than a child's drawing.

Thankfully she didn't buy that schlock. As for bean counters fucking shit up...totally agree. Accountants should not pretend to be engineers.

To Hell with the "art snobs"! As I have typically known about snobs, the less legitimate their claim to economic or intellectual superiority over what they deride, the more obnoxious they are.

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Quote:Because of an impending transition in life that makes such trips unlikely, I took a journey to the Toledo (Ohio) Museum of Art yesterday.

I'm half tempted to say "pics or it didn't happen".

I took pictures, but more of surrounding buildings. Great art gets reduced to photographs only with great loss to the worth of the image.

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Quote: I went through its post-1900 wing, and one of the first paintings that I saw was a Matisse, a reclining dancer. A photograph could not do justice to it. One must see the art in person to most appreciate it. Seeing it from a photograph is wholly inadequate for judgment. This is especially so with abstract impressionism. It is possible to paint a canvas in one color and have something interesting, but one must see it oneself.

If it was abstract it was shit. It would be shit if I saw a picture of it, or if I saw with my own eyes. I'm sorry but any abstraction that isn't the result of painting fast to capture the light, or errors in the act of creating it being made because all that man makes is by its nature imperfect, then it isn't art. If it doesn't look like something it is trash.

I trust that you realize that Matisse is not abstract. But few painters can express such joy as he can.

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Quote:Yes, I know. "Modern" art can be very bad, and sometimes it isn't very accomplished. I did a few exercises on a small canvas, experiments with brush strokes. Their only virtue is that they show some playfulness. (That's the only satisfying way to learn to do some things -- make play out of it). But it turns out... interesting. There is neither structure nor plan, something that I would never apply until I can achieve some realism. I need to learn some technique so that I can paint something so 'trivial' as a goldfish -- and convince people that the image suggests something more than a goldfish.


Whatever you made while practicing your bush technique was not art I'm sorry. And that's fine. Michelangelo didn't carve David out of the first rock he saw. That being said a great deal of the so-called Art Establishment has its head planted so firmly up its own rectum that they are calling people sitting on a toilet in front of a museum in protest "performance art". No...it was a publicity stunt.

It looks better than I expected. Of course I know its limitations! Acrylic paint from Hobby Lobby on a small canvas from Wal*Mart? Not knowing what I was getting made it something of a surprise. But I know some of the conventions of what is good and what is not.

Quote:It is worth remembering: some of that modern art is now over a hundred years old. It is often as old now as Impressionism was in the 1970s. Thus the Malevich and early Picasso. When it becomes timeless it is no longer 'modern'.

It will never be classic. Objective standards are returning unless Western Civilization is destined to terminal decline.[/quote]

They will most likely come through primitive art, something not so amenable to the expression more of the soul of the artist than of physical reality.

Quote:Do neo-classicism badly and you do not have good art. Do cubism well and you might have some very good art. As in music I sometimes need some Stravinsky or Shostakovich to shake myself. Then it is back to Mozart.

No if you do cubism "well" (I'm not even sure what that even means really, you really should put going to Europe at least once on your bucket list) you still don't have art because it wasn't art to start with.

Mozart is alright, but I tend to lean toward Tchaikovsky and Grieg. [/quote]

Mozart is not "alright". His music is the most refined expression of sound that anyone ever created. Besides, "alright" is not a real world.

Quote:I love art. I want to learn some of the techniques so that (1) I can better appreciate what I see, and (2) I want to be more than a consumer.

By all means continue with your painting. My grandmother rather liked painting, my kid absolutely loves it. He finished his painting "Bethune Beach by Full Moon" last night--which is why I was up so late last night. It will take a good week to cure though but I think it will turn out better than his first painting using the black gesso.
[/quote]

It sounds promising. My second painting, and the first without instruction, wasn't intended to be much. It's really an exercise, an accident that tuned out better than much of the pretentious schlock I have seen. But it is on to learning to paint fur, feathers, fish and reptile scales, brick (with mortar, and I figure that a toothpick will be the best implement for mortar), tree bark, leaves, water ripples, windows, and shadows -- all of which seem much more complicated.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#22
(05-22-2016, 11:41 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: To Hell with the "art snobs"! As I have typically known about snobs, the less legitimate their claim to economic or intellectual superiority over what they deride, the more obnoxious they are.

Odd that sounds remarkably like my argumentation as to why modern so-called art is shit.

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Quote:I'm half tempted to say "pics or it didn't happen".

I took pictures, but more of surrounding buildings. Great art gets reduced to photographs only with great loss to the worth of the image.

I see the "pics or it didn't happen" meme is lost on you. I'm surprised you left your home town long enough to go to a museum. Hopefully you'll be less mopey for a month or two.

Quote:I trust that you realize that Matisse is not abstract. But few painters can express such joy as he can.

I would call Matisse an impressionist rather than an abstract impressionist. He really tried to capture the way the light was captured on objects as such he had to paint quickly and with less detail, but the detail isn't what is important, rather the way the illusion of light is captured near perfectly is what is important.

Quote:It looks better than I expected. Of course I know its limitations! Acrylic paint from Hobby Lobby on a small canvas from Wal*Mart? Not knowing what I was getting made it something of a surprise. But I know some of the conventions of what is good and what is not.

My kid prefers oils, but we've also paid for him to take courses at Bob Ross' school which is local to where I am. Bob Ross is something of a local celebrity that people still talk about though he's been dead for a while. His kids run the school. Anyway it isn't the medium that matters, it is the technique that matters. Though some mediums are more forgiving than others. Oils are perhaps the easiest as they dry the slowest with water colors being the hardest as they dry relatively quickly.

Quote:They will most likely come through primitive art, something not so amenable to the expression more of the soul of the artist than of physical reality.

Depends on what you mean by primitive. I would not call the Highway Men primitive though there are clear folk art influences, and most of their work was done in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s. They were called the highway men because they'd drive around FL and paint stuff.

Quote:Mozart is not "alright". His music is the most refined expression of sound that anyone ever created. Besides, "alright" is not a real world.

I find Mozart to be somewhat stiff. Grieg and Tchaikovsky are both passionate. I would argue that if one wants to listen to the most refined expression of sound ever created by humans Beethoven would be it. He has the passion of the Romantics and the formality of the Classics.

Quote:It sounds promising. My second painting, and the first without instruction, wasn't intended to be much. It's really an exercise, an accident that tuned out better than much of the pretentious schlock I have seen. But it is on to learning to paint fur, feathers, fish and reptile scales, brick (with mortar, and I figure that a toothpick will be the best implement for mortar), tree bark, leaves, water ripples, windows, and shadows -- all of which seem much more complicated.

Depends on what you want to paint. Landscapes tend to favor fan brushes and pallet knives.
It really is all mathematics.

Turn on to Daddy, Tune in to Nationalism, Drop out of UN/NATO/WTO/TPP/NAFTA/CAFTA Globalism.
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#23
(05-13-2016, 10:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Most of my art was purchased at science fiction conventions.  Much of it originated as cover art for paperback novels.  The painters who do that sort of stuff generally call themselves illustrators rather than artists, but technically they seem to me to be at least the equal of the old masters in creating realistic work often set in less than realistic science fiction and fantasy environments.
I would point out that until the development of photography, visual art was the only means of recording images.  Once photography was established it reduced the market for work intended to record visual images, such as portraits. AOf course, artists could continue to find work as illustrators, set painters, etc.  One way to remain relevant was for artists to produce work that achieved results unattainable with photographs.  One was color of course, and the other was special effects like the "shimmering" effect obtained in impressionistic work.  Surrealism, cubism and other approaches tried various warpings of space to obtain cool effects.  One thing an artist could do was paint a photo-realistic image of something that did not exist, or which was unknown (like pictures of the surfaces of the planets).  You can't take a photo of something that is not there.  

All the things above were new stuff not done before and which could not be achieved with the competing technology. Now artists that paint photo-realistic canvases aren't doing anything that the old masters didn't do, and probably better. So they stopped doing this until the more recent times when a market developed for this sort of thing as a political statement.

Now those that enjoy visual art (it's not really my cup of tea) say they note all sorts of emotional, spiritual etc. aspects of old realistic art that made some competently-executed works better than other competent works.  If there is a non-material aspect of a work that is beyond the photo-realistic image what do you have if you subtract the material image?  Some remaining essence or "soul" if you will?  I suspect this essence was what abstract artists were trying to capture in their imageless work.

I really don't know.  But if I am in the right direction, then I would suppose abstract art became passe when photography developed into an art form that could capture that essence.  In today's world of computer-generated imagery, is there any role for two-dimensional physical art?  Visual artists will remain, somebody has to work the software, and I suspect in high demand for video productions and computer game applications.  I don't play many video games but my understanding is some of the imagery found in them are very much Art.
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#24
(05-22-2016, 12:55 PM)Mikebert Wrote: I really don't know.  But if I am in the right direction, then I would suppose abstract art became passe when photography developed into an art form that could capture that essence.  In today's world of computer-generated imagery, is there any role for two-dimensional physical art?  Visual artists will remain, somebody has to work the software, and I suspect in high demand for video productions and computer game applications.  I don't play many video games but my understanding is some of the imagery found in them are very much Art.

As I said, I'm not a fan of fine art, but appreciate the art of science fiction.  I have a modest collection of hardcopy stuff adorning my walls, and a more extended collection of jpeg files used for desktops and screen savers.  While many share a notion that two dimensional art is dead, I for one sill like to look at the stuff.  While the illustrators producing such art might not be making big bucks or having their works hung in haut art museums, they are making a living and are doing stuff the old masters wouldn't have dreamed of.  

With the exception of Starry Night, I don't collect haut art.  It just leaves me cold, seeming primitive and staid.

Kelly Freas.  "A Bridle for Pegasus."  The book came out in 1973.  Kelly Freas doesn't do photorealistic.  I'm not sure what he does.  It's not photorealistic, it's not entirely abstract, there is an element of abstract swirls of paint conveying emotion, and of color for color's sake, but you can also recognize it as a lady with a guitar on a winged horse.  It also conveys several layers of emotion that reflect what goes on in the book, including an early vision of apocalyptic art.  I'm not one to claim I'm the ultimate critic capable of judging how worthy one artist or style is as compared to another, but I'd rather this be hanging on my walls than most of the old master's stuff.  There is just more there.  Kelly was able to read a book, then let his imagination run wild...  while leaving empty space on the top and bottom for a book title and author's name.  This was a commercial work.

[Image: Bridle%20Pegasus.jpg]

One day when working to spiff up my screen saver, I did a Google search something to the effect of 'science fiction women".  This was one image that came up.  I could say it is photorealistic, or nearly so in its quality and technique.  I'm assuming it was done the old fashion way, with paint brushes.  Thing is, I don't really know.  I can produce similar effects with CGI, not this good in terms of composition and imagination, but...  Anyway, I am dubious about any claim about the old masters having better technique than modern artists.

[Image: Dew%20I.jpg]

Video game stuff or the sort of CGI you see in big budget Hollywood films are again things the old masters couldn't have dreamed off.  We now have other stuff for other times and other audiences.  Some of it is still limited by technology.  Computer horsepower limits image quality when the game player is moving the artwork around in real time.  Still, if you don't make the eyes pop you have trouble competing with the next game company down the road.

It might be that artists always have competed for an audience, but audiences and mediums have changed.  Fans of one style of art will sneer at fans of other art styles.  I'm not going to spend a lot of time putting this or that approach down, but clearly things are changing.  Changing, yes, but I for one don't think 2D is dead.
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#25
(05-22-2016, 12:12 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I find Mozart to be somewhat stiff.  Grieg and Tchaikovsky are both passionate.  I would argue that if one wants to listen to the most refined expression of sound ever created by humans Beethoven would be it.  He has the passion of the Romantics and the formality of the Classics.

I mostly agree with this, though I personally put Bach on top. I like Shostakovitch, too.
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#26
(05-22-2016, 07:25 PM)Odin Wrote:
(05-22-2016, 12:12 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I find Mozart to be somewhat stiff.  Grieg and Tchaikovsky are both passionate.  I would argue that if one wants to listen to the most refined expression of sound ever created by humans Beethoven would be it.  He has the passion of the Romantics and the formality of the Classics.

I mostly agree with this, though I personally put Bach on top. I like Shostakovitch, too.

Bach has a tendency to ornament his music with gaudiness. But the whole of the Baroque period was like that. Shostakovitch is rather good.
It really is all mathematics.

Turn on to Daddy, Tune in to Nationalism, Drop out of UN/NATO/WTO/TPP/NAFTA/CAFTA Globalism.
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#27
Kinser wrote, " I would argue that if one wants to listen to the most refined expression of sound ever created by humans Beethoven would be it. "

You'd better change your mind. Beethoven has been a top favorite of mine for 60 years or more.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#28
(05-23-2016, 02:03 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Kinser wrote, " I would argue that if one wants to listen to the most refined expression of sound ever created by humans Beethoven would be it. "

You'd better change your mind. Beethoven has been a top favorite of mine for 60 years or more.

Eric that is merely evidence that broken clocks can be right twice a day. Also, experience with farm animals in my youth indicates that even blind hogs can find an acorn every now and then as well.
It really is all mathematics.

Turn on to Daddy, Tune in to Nationalism, Drop out of UN/NATO/WTO/TPP/NAFTA/CAFTA Globalism.
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#29
(05-23-2016, 08:29 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:
(05-23-2016, 02:03 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Kinser wrote, " I would argue that if one wants to listen to the most refined expression of sound ever created by humans Beethoven would be it. "

You'd better change your mind. Beethoven has been a top favorite of mine for 60 years or more.

Eric that is merely evidence that broken clocks can be right twice a day.  Also, experience with farm animals in my youth indicates that even blind hogs can find an acorn every now and then as well.

No, kinser, YOU said that whatever the opposite of Eric says, is what you say.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#30
(05-23-2016, 11:20 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(05-23-2016, 08:29 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:
(05-23-2016, 02:03 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Kinser wrote, " I would argue that if one wants to listen to the most refined expression of sound ever created by humans Beethoven would be it. "

You'd better change your mind. Beethoven has been a top favorite of mine for 60 years or more.

Eric that is merely evidence that broken clocks can be right twice a day.  Also, experience with farm animals in my youth indicates that even blind hogs can find an acorn every now and then as well.

No, kinser, YOU said that whatever the opposite of Eric says, is what you say.

And where exactly did I say this? I'm going to need citations of course.

I have said many times in the past that the Opposite of what Eric says is usually the truth/reality.
It really is all mathematics.

Turn on to Daddy, Tune in to Nationalism, Drop out of UN/NATO/WTO/TPP/NAFTA/CAFTA Globalism.
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#31
Guys could you try to keep this about the topic at hand and not each other?
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#32
Thanks Dan. Guys, this is not the old forum where you could get away with ripping at each other....thankfully. I think they need a vent thread so they can go there to vent and keep it off the other threads.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#33
I did an exercise with brush strokes and ended up with abstract impressionism. I have no idea of what I expressed.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#34
[Image: o_JKU1cx_Wi_NB6_6_HSTHLps_YB9on_i_Llrn_Z...RMT_Wm.jpg]
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#35
The Infinity Mirror Room is great!
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/need-esca...oi-kusama/





The repetition and cosmic scope reminds me of my fave, Bach's Toccata in F.
https://youtu.be/U6fgRfrTb78

HARI SREENIVASAN: There’s a lot going on in the political world of Washington these days, but the hottest ticket in town may be for a museum exhibition by a Japanese artist exploring worlds well beyond today’s headlines.

Jeffrey Brown has our story.

JEFFREY BROWN: It’s called an Infinity Mirror Room, and the stretching out of time and space, an effect created through the use of lights, reflection and objects, is one of the obsessions of artist Yayoi Kusama.

Right now at Washington’s Hirshhorn Museum, people are lining up to experience her world of whimsy, color, shapes, and peeks into the beyond.

Museum director Melissa Chiu:

MELISSA CHIU, Director, Smithsonian’s Hirshhorn Museum: There are fewer and fewer moments today that you’re alone in something that feels universal. You are there in amongst the cosmos in one piece. It’s just light. And it’s a kind of — it’s very poignant and very compelling.

JEFFREY BROWN: Even as the wider world has caught on, Kusama has in fact been a much-loved star in the art world since the early 1960s, after coming to New York from her native Japan.

Her earliest works already displayed motifs that remain to this day, notably the repetition of forms, especially simple marks and polka dots, that Kusama gives a more cosmic significance, as in her series of paintings called “Infinity Nets.”

In an interview with Hirshhorn curators in December, the 87-year-old artist, as colorful as her work, spoke of her attempt to reach the infinite through the repetition of images.

YAYOI KUSAMA, Artist (through interpreter): The same things piled one on top of another creates an expanding world that reaches out to the edges of the universe. That is the simple image I have.

This effect of continual repetition calls out to the human senses, and, in return, deep inside of our hearts, we yearn for true amazement.

JEFFREY BROWN: Curator Mika Yoshitake put together the exhibition.

MIKA YOSHITAKE, Curator, Hirshhorn Museum: Her work is very process-oriented, meaning that there is a very lengthy, you know, physical labor that goes on, that the repetition of certain motifs like the nets or the polka dots, and they — it kind of expands organically.

JEFFREY BROWN: That compulsiveness is there in sculptures of phallic forms: a rowboat titled “Violet Obsession,” furniture that you might not want to sit in, but Kusama herself was happy to, and happy to be photographed in.

In fact, she often brought herself into the picture, a polka dotted, kimono-wearing, downtown ’60s art world figure known for creating happenings on the streets, sometimes with nudes, sometimes protesting the Vietnam War.

She also began to make the Infinity Mirror Rooms, eventually 20 in all, six at the center of this new exhibition, the most ever gathered together.

Part of the attraction of Kusama’s work clearly is the fun house effect. I mean, here I am, with cameraman Malcolm, in a field of pumpkins that stretches on, yes, to infinity.

MIKA YOSHITAKE: It’s about life. It’s about confronting our mortality. It’s about filling a void that she has experienced. And that incessant energy, a desire to connect with people, I think it’s about the clarity of vision and also perception.

JEFFREY BROWN: But Kusama’s story is more complicated. She suffered from hallucinations from childhood, and experienced early trauma from being forced by her mother to spy on her father as he had affairs.

She had a breakdown in the 1970s that forced her to return to Japan. And, for more than 40 years, she’s voluntarily lived in a psychiatric hospital, even as she’s continued to work in a studio a block away, making what she’s referred to as art medicine.

MIKA YOSHITAKE: Art for her is a form of therapy. So she needs the art, or else she will probably not survive. She is somebody who needs to have a ritual every day of, you know, painting.

JEFFREY BROWN: Certainly, her work brought a good deal of pleasure at the Hirshhorn exhibition, especially in the Obliteration Room, a pristine white-walled space in which visitors were invited to join in the art-making by adding dots of their own.

Captured in time-lapse video, the room was being transformed, just as Kusama intended, according to museum director Chiu.

MELISSA CHIU: The word obliteration has a very harsh kind of meaning, but, for her this was, in a way, how she thinks about her art, that her art is transforming her own life, helping her to deal with life, but also potentially allowing others to interact with it here in this room.

JEFFREY BROWN: Museum-goers couldn’t resist, and neither could I.

So, if I put it like this …

MELISSA CHIU: Put wherever you like, Jeff.

(LAUGHTER)

MELISSA CHIU: So, balancing. See how he’s balancing?

(LAUGHTER)

JEFFREY BROWN: Yes. Yes. Yes.

MELISSA CHIU: You could create patterns from randomness. As you can see, some people couldn’t resist and they have tried to create a line with their dots.

But all bets are off. You can do whatever you like.

JEFFREY BROWN: There’s a lot of humor and a lot of pain in the work of Yayoi Kusama, who continues to put in full days at her studio creating new paintings and sculptures, even as record crowds here flock to see the results.

From the Hirshhorn Museum in Washington, D.C., I’m Jeffrey Brown for the PBS NewsHour.

HARI SREENIVASAN: The exhibition is in Washington through May 14. Then, for two years, it travels to Seattle, Los Angeles, Toronto, Cleveland, and Atlanta.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Wow.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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