Dylann Roof sentenced

[Mikebert]

(01-12-2017, 06:55 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

Quote:Of course we know who Saint Peter's ... Boss is. Note the capitalization.

Bruce Springsteen? 

Well of course

[Eric the Green]

(01-10-2017, 05:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: A warning to him: Genesis 1:27 suggests that God is BLACK. If He made Man in His Image, then because the first human beings were black, God must be black.

Quote:Genesis 1:27, KJV

So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

Good point. In point of fact, scientists now call the early African man from whom all of us are apparently descended, "Adam."

http://www.livescience.com/38613-genetic...vered.html

[Mikebert]

(02-24-2017, 03:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I'm guessing that I missed saying something. If God made Man in His Image, then because the first humans were black, so must be God.

No.  The first humans were black if you assume that humans appeared first in Africa and that the world is more than 6000 years old.  But if you are a bibilical literalist, then humans first appearred in the region around the Persian Gulf about 6000 years ago and were white. Thus, God is White just like Santa Claus.

[Eric the Green]

(02-24-2017, 03:20 PM)Mikebert Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I'm guessing that I missed saying something. If God made Man in His Image, then because the first humans were black, so must be God.

No.  The first humans were black if you assume that humans appeared first in Africa and that the world is more than 6000 years old.  But if you are a bibilical literalist, then humans first appearred in the region around the Persian Gulf about 6000 years ago and were white. Thus, God is White just like Santa Claus.

But this conclusion depends on the "literalist" interpretation of the Bible, which itself is a modern notion and which scholars show was not the interpretation among those who wrote the Bible. It also depends on a literalist interpretation of "God" as given to us by atheists, which we don't have to accept either. It can also be thought that God worked through evolution, and that evolution is a creative and not a mechanical process.

[SomeGuy]

(02-24-2017, 03:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:20 PM)Mikebert Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I'm guessing that I missed saying something. If God made Man in His Image, then because the first humans were black, so must be God.

No.  The first humans were black if you assume that humans appeared first in Africa and that the world is more than 6000 years old.  But if you are a bibilical literalist, then humans first appearred in the region around the Persian Gulf about 6000 years ago and were white. Thus, God is White just like Santa Claus.

But this conclusion depends on the "literalist" interpretation of the Bible, which itself is a modern notion and which scholars show was not the interpretation among those who wrote the Bible. It also depends on a literalist interpretation of "God" as given to us by atheists, which we don't have to accept either. It can also be thought that God worked through evolution, and that evolution is a creative and not a mechanical process.

Which is why he gave the first option as well. 

[Eric the Green]

(02-24-2017, 03:27 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:20 PM)Mikebert Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I'm guessing that I missed saying something. If God made Man in His Image, then because the first humans were black, so must be God.

No.  The first humans were black if you assume that humans appeared first in Africa and that the world is more than 6000 years old.  But if you are a bibilical literalist, then humans first appearred in the region around the Persian Gulf about 6000 years ago and were white. Thus, God is White just like Santa Claus.

But this conclusion depends on the "literalist" interpretation of the Bible, which itself is a modern notion and which scholars show was not the interpretation among those who wrote the Bible. It also depends on a literalist interpretation of "God" as given to us by atheists, which we don't have to accept either. It can also be thought that God worked through evolution, and that evolution is a creative and not a mechanical process.

Which is why he gave the first option as well. 

Some Biblical literalists are Young Earth Creationists (who say the Earth is 6000 years old, as Bishop Ussher calculated), but other literalists are not YECs.

[SomeGuy]

Quote:Some Biblical literalists are Young Earth Creationists (who say the Earth is 6000 years old, as Bishop Ussher calculated), but other literalists are not YECs.

I question their "literalism", then.  Next you're gonna tell me that they believe the Earth is "round" and does not have pillars. 

[Eric the Green]

(02-24-2017, 03:37 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

Quote:Some Biblical literalists are Young Earth Creationists (who say the Earth is 6000 years old, as Bishop Ussher calculated), but other literalists are not YECs.

I question their "literalism", then.  Next you're gonna tell me that they believe the Earth is "round" and does not have pillars. 

Every kind of literalism is anything but. There is no 6000-year timeline stated in the Bible. It speaks of 7 days, the first few of which cannot even be days, since there was no Sun and Moon yet. There are in fact Young Earth Creationists and non-Young Earth Creationists, who both consider themselves "literalists" or at least "fundamentalists." That's why the term YEC exists.

But it's true that the Garden of Eden is assumed to be southern Mesopotamia.

"Eden" is another name for "Earth," and the term originated as a description of that region, which is where the basic Bible stories came from. So, to realize that Adam is black, you have to go beyond the Biblical tradition to that extent.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-24-2017, 04:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:37 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

Quote:Some Biblical literalists are Young Earth Creationists (who say the Earth is 6000 years old, as Bishop Ussher calculated), but other literalists are not YECs.

I question their "literalism", then.  Next you're gonna tell me that they believe the Earth is "round" and does not have pillars. 

Every kind of literalism is anything but. There is no 6000-year timeline stated in the Bible. It speaks of 7 days, the first few of which cannot even be days, since there was no Sun and Moon yet. There are in fact Young Earth Creationists and non-Young Earth Creationists, who both consider themselves "literalists" or at least "fundamentalists." That's why the term YEC exists.

But it's true that the Garden of Eden is assumed to be southern Mesopotamia.

"Eden" is another name for "Earth," and the term originated as a description of that region, which is where the basic Bible stories came from. So, to realize that Adam is black, you have to go beyond the Biblical tradition to that extent.

Each day was billions of years. People thousands of years ago had no concept of those types of time frames. Therefore, as Zoroastrian and subsequent Abrahamic holy books got written, they used the "day" as an arbitrary demarcation of time.

I'd heard someone propose that there was a lunar calendar in use when the "X begat Y" chapter was written.  If you read the word 'years' literally, everybody lived much longer than most would believe possible.  If you divide by twelve, things become a lot more believable.  For example, Genesis 11:32, "And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years; and Terah died in Haran." What do you think? Would you go with 205 years, or 17 for a life span that far back in time?

[Marypoza]

(02-24-2017, 04:39 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 04:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:37 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

Quote:Some Biblical literalists are Young Earth Creationists (who say the Earth is 6000 years old, as Bishop Ussher calculated), but other literalists are not YECs.

I question their "literalism", then.  Next you're gonna tell me that they believe the Earth is "round" and does not have pillars. 

Every kind of literalism is anything but. There is no 6000-year timeline stated in the Bible. It speaks of 7 days, the first few of which cannot even be days, since there was no Sun and Moon yet. There are in fact Young Earth Creationists and non-Young Earth Creationists, who both consider themselves "literalists" or at least "fundamentalists." That's why the term YEC exists.

But it's true that the Garden of Eden is assumed to be southern Mesopotamia.

"Eden" is another name for "Earth," and the term originated as a description of that region, which is where the basic Bible stories came from. So, to realize that Adam is black, you have to go beyond the Biblical tradition to that extent.

Each day was billions of years. People thousands of years ago had no concept of those types of time frames. Therefore, as Zoroastrian and subsequent Abrahamic holy books got written, they used the "day" as an arbitrary demarcation of time.

I'd heard someone propose that there was a lunar calendar in use when the "X begat Y" chapter was written.  If you read the word 'years' literally, everybody lived much longer than most would believe possible.  If you divide by twelve, things become a lot more believable.  For example, Genesis 11:32,  "And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years; and Terah died in Haran."  What do you think?  Would you go with 205 years, or 17 for a life span that far back in time?

-- Terah was, who, Noah's Grandad or somebody? 17 is too young even back in those daze. I'll go with 205 yrs

[SomeGuy]

Quote:Each day was billions of years. People thousands of years ago had no concept of those types of time frames. Therefore, as Zoroastrian and subsequent Abrahamic holy books got written, they used the "day" as an arbitrary demarcation of time.

I take it this is a belief system you subscribe to?

[SomeGuy]

(02-24-2017, 04:39 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 04:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:37 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

Quote:Some Biblical literalists are Young Earth Creationists (who say the Earth is 6000 years old, as Bishop Ussher calculated), but other literalists are not YECs.

I question their "literalism", then.  Next you're gonna tell me that they believe the Earth is "round" and does not have pillars. 

Every kind of literalism is anything but. There is no 6000-year timeline stated in the Bible. It speaks of 7 days, the first few of which cannot even be days, since there was no Sun and Moon yet. There are in fact Young Earth Creationists and non-Young Earth Creationists, who both consider themselves "literalists" or at least "fundamentalists." That's why the term YEC exists.

But it's true that the Garden of Eden is assumed to be southern Mesopotamia.

"Eden" is another name for "Earth," and the term originated as a description of that region, which is where the basic Bible stories came from. So, to realize that Adam is black, you have to go beyond the Biblical tradition to that extent.

Each day was billions of years. People thousands of years ago had no concept of those types of time frames. Therefore, as Zoroastrian and subsequent Abrahamic holy books got written, they used the "day" as an arbitrary demarcation of time.

I'd heard someone propose that there was a lunar calendar in use when the "X begat Y" chapter was written.  If you read the word 'years' literally, everybody lived much longer than most would believe possible.  If you divide by twelve, things become a lot more believable.  For example, Genesis 11:32,  "And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years; and Terah died in Haran."  What do you think?  Would you go with 205 years, or 17 for a life span that far back in time?

No, that's stupid.  Average life spans in premodern times were dragged down by largely by infant/child mortality rates and deaths in childbirth.  People didn't literally grow old and die in 16, 20, or 35 years. 

Lunar calendars are in use today, they don't restart every month.  They are also generally properly lunisolar calendars, measuring the number of lunar cycles in one solar year, with some degree of padding to line them up.  Even purely lunar ones like the Islamic calendar still have 12 months in a year.

[pbrower2a]

I make comments about the ultimate fate (likely eternal damnation) of an unrepentant terrorist and we go off into a discussion of religion. The view that one of the delights of Heaven is ringside seats to see the torments of the Damned suggests something that would get very old very fast. If people do evil because of an organic disease for which they are partially (syphilis) culpable or are innocent (head injuries, congenital disorders), isn't a cure of such a disorder a solution What of parental abuse and neglect? Or exposure to environmental toxins?

Brainwashing is real. Racist causes like the Klan and Nazi cults may not be as sophisticated at brainwashing people as are the Unification Church or Scientology, but they are onto something. They offer some Ultimate Truth that can make a pathetic loser feel like a winner, that Jews are evil and that blacks are subhuman. Dylann Roof confronted people who had a more genuine truth, one that could have forced him to confront his own flaws of thought.

There are at least two very different worlds in the South. One is of white racists as oppressors and agents of oppression of blacks. People in that tradition are proud to be white, even if they have nothing else of which to be proud. Maybe it is because they have nothing worthy of wholesome pride, they seek an unwholesome pride -- pride in being white. (OK, I am proud of my ability to string together words into sentences and sentences into meaningful paragraphs. I am proud to have latched onto the wholesome part of my German heritage -- especially great German music -- while steering clear of antisemitism. Given a choice between Nazism and Judaism I would pick Judaism because I could keep my culture and my moral values. Can a Jew love Bach and hate Hitler? So can I!)

The other Southern heritage of the South is the black church, ordinarily a haven from the worst barbarity that white racists can do. The black church has been a place in which blacks have been able to exercise intellectual powers to resist oppression and to hone opposition to the likes of Theodore Bilbo and Bull Connor in their days and some pathetic losers like Dylann Roof in our time. In rare events white racists have violated the haven of the black church, as with the bombing of the Eighth Street Baptist Church in Birmingham in the 1960s or with the outrage that Dylann Roof committed.

Sure, there are white Southerners like Jimmy Carter whose family may have profited from white supremacy in the past but have accepted the morality of the Southern black church as something to incorporate. Of course I congratulate them. But Dylann Roof latched onto a very sick culture and chose to infiltrate a healthy one -- with a firearm and ammunition.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-25-2017, 03:16 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 04:39 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 04:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:37 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: I question their "literalism", then.  Next you're gonna tell me that they believe the Earth is "round" and does not have pillars. 

Every kind of literalism is anything but. There is no 6000-year timeline stated in the Bible. It speaks of 7 days, the first few of which cannot even be days, since there was no Sun and Moon yet. There are in fact Young Earth Creationists and non-Young Earth Creationists, who both consider themselves "literalists" or at least "fundamentalists." That's why the term YEC exists.

But it's true that the Garden of Eden is assumed to be southern Mesopotamia.

"Eden" is another name for "Earth," and the term originated as a description of that region, which is where the basic Bible stories came from. So, to realize that Adam is black, you have to go beyond the Biblical tradition to that extent.

Each day was billions of years. People thousands of years ago had no concept of those types of time frames. Therefore, as Zoroastrian and subsequent Abrahamic holy books got written, they used the "day" as an arbitrary demarcation of time.

I'd heard someone propose that there was a lunar calendar in use when the "X begat Y" chapter was written.  If you read the word 'years' literally, everybody lived much longer than most would believe possible.  If you divide by twelve, things become a lot more believable.  For example, Genesis 11:32,  "And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years; and Terah died in Haran."  What do you think?  Would you go with 205 years, or 17 for a life span that far back in time?

No, that's stupid.  Average life spans in premodern times were dragged down by largely by infant/child mortality rates and deaths in childbirth.  People didn't literally grow old and die in 16, 20, or 35 years. 

Lunar calendars are in use today, they don't restart every month.  They are also generally properly lunisolar calendars, measuring the number of lunar cycles in one solar year, with some degree of padding to line them up.  Even purely lunar ones like the Islamic calendar still have 12 months in a year.

Even today, more people die at 17 than at 205.

[Marypoza]

(02-26-2017, 06:10 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-25-2017, 03:16 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 04:39 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 04:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Every kind of literalism is anything but. There is no 6000-year timeline stated in the Bible. It speaks of 7 days, the first few of which cannot even be days, since there was no Sun and Moon yet. There are in fact Young Earth Creationists and non-Young Earth Creationists, who both consider themselves "literalists" or at least "fundamentalists." That's why the term YEC exists.

But it's true that the Garden of Eden is assumed to be southern Mesopotamia.

"Eden" is another name for "Earth," and the term originated as a description of that region, which is where the basic Bible stories came from. So, to realize that Adam is black, you have to go beyond the Biblical tradition to that extent.

Each day was billions of years. People thousands of years ago had no concept of those types of time frames. Therefore, as Zoroastrian and subsequent Abrahamic holy books got written, they used the "day" as an arbitrary demarcation of time.

I'd heard someone propose that there was a lunar calendar in use when the "X begat Y" chapter was written.  If you read the word 'years' literally, everybody lived much longer than most would believe possible.  If you divide by twelve, things become a lot more believable.  For example, Genesis 11:32,  "And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years; and Terah died in Haran."  What do you think?  Would you go with 205 years, or 17 for a life span that far back in time?

No, that's stupid.  Average life spans in premodern times were dragged down by largely by infant/child mortality rates and deaths in childbirth.  People didn't literally grow old and die in 16, 20, or 35 years. 

Lunar calendars are in use today, they don't restart every month.  They are also generally properly lunisolar calendars, measuring the number of lunar cycles in one solar year, with some degree of padding to line them up.  Even purely lunar ones like the Islamic calendar still have 12 months in a year.

Even today, more people die at 17 than at 205.

-- from natural causes?

[SomeGuy]

(02-26-2017, 06:10 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-25-2017, 03:16 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 04:39 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 04:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(02-24-2017, 03:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Every kind of literalism is anything but. There is no 6000-year timeline stated in the Bible. It speaks of 7 days, the first few of which cannot even be days, since there was no Sun and Moon yet. There are in fact Young Earth Creationists and non-Young Earth Creationists, who both consider themselves "literalists" or at least "fundamentalists." That's why the term YEC exists.

But it's true that the Garden of Eden is assumed to be southern Mesopotamia.

"Eden" is another name for "Earth," and the term originated as a description of that region, which is where the basic Bible stories came from. So, to realize that Adam is black, you have to go beyond the Biblical tradition to that extent.

Each day was billions of years. People thousands of years ago had no concept of those types of time frames. Therefore, as Zoroastrian and subsequent Abrahamic holy books got written, they used the "day" as an arbitrary demarcation of time.

I'd heard someone propose that there was a lunar calendar in use when the "X begat Y" chapter was written.  If you read the word 'years' literally, everybody lived much longer than most would believe possible.  If you divide by twelve, things become a lot more believable.  For example, Genesis 11:32,  "And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years; and Terah died in Haran."  What do you think?  Would you go with 205 years, or 17 for a life span that far back in time?

No, that's stupid.  Average life spans in premodern times were dragged down by largely by infant/child mortality rates and deaths in childbirth.  People didn't literally grow old and die in 16, 20, or 35 years. 

Lunar calendars are in use today, they don't restart every month.  They are also generally properly lunisolar calendars, measuring the number of lunar cycles in one solar year, with some degree of padding to line them up.  Even purely lunar ones like the Islamic calendar still have 12 months in a year.

Even today, more people die at 17 than at 205.

None of them have adult grandchildren when they died.  He also begat Abraham at the age of 70, which is also listed in Psalm 90:10 as the years of man (the old three score and ten).  Really puts the rest of the Old Testament in perspective, all of those precocious (not quite) 6 year olds. 

I mean, are you really doubling down on this pretentious idiocy?

[Eric the Green]

This argument is ridiculous. HEY! Just admit that the first humans were black people created in God's image, so God is black, and stop fussing about it.

Hey, the darkness of space is pretty black, and 99% of everything is space and the rest is energy. So, why not admit that God is Black?

We can use a little divine affirmative action and political correctness.

Even Rags, who doesn't like political correctness, can get behind black!

Back on topic: Dylann Roof was white and the parishioners he murdered were black. So, who was holy, and who was of the devil?

[pbrower2a]

...not to mention that there are "dark matter" and "dark energy" exceedingly difficult to detect and understand.

Dylann (why two n's? it looks pointlessly feminine, which is an undue burden on a male who already has problems) Roof confronted the black church and had the hard choice between the black church that could have saved him and white racism that could lead him to ruin in the most degrading way possible.  He chose catastrophically wrong for both himself and some innocent people.

But where were his personal influences? I will save that for another post.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-26-2017, 03:16 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: I mean, are you really doubling down on this pretentious idiocy?

Nah... I'm likely the last person to argue that the Bible makes sense in it's nitpick details.

[SomeGuy]

(02-27-2017, 06:14 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-26-2017, 03:16 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: I mean, are you really doubling down on this pretentious idiocy?

Nah...  I'm likely the last person to argue that the Bible makes sense in it's nitpick details.

That's a much more reasonable position to take, IMO.