Flavors of 4Ts

[freivolk]

(02-04-2017, 11:44 AM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 10:25 AM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-03-2017, 05:56 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-03-2017, 05:49 PM)freivolk Wrote: Even the american 4T goes till 1794. Why shouldn´t the continental 4T last till 1800? I personal think the continental 4T ends with the War of the Second Coalition. The French Revolution has ended, the new order of Napoleon is full established and the old order of the HRE is destroyed.

The argument that the Revolutionary Wars is a 4T and the Napoleonic era (with attendant wars) was a 1T is common on this site.  That still ignores that the things you are talking about in Germany didn't occur in the (proposed) 4T, they happened after 1806.  And the German Confederation that was the dominant political order in what would become Germany, wasn't instituted until 1815.

1806 is just the formalisation of the end of the HRE. After the french victory in both coalition wars it was obvious, that the structure the empire was build upon was destroyed. Instead hundereds of imperial principalities we have now roughly 3 dotzend states. We have also keep in mind, that continental Europe is dominated by France, which enforce his vision of the 1T on the german states. This napoleonic 1T was cut short by the War of the Fifth Coaltion, which leaded to the need of a new political structure for Europe after the collapse of the french dominance. 1815 is therefore not the beginning of a german 1T, it is the beginning of the continental 2T, because the prophets which fought in the Wars of 1813/15 never really acccepts the restauratives insti´tution of 1815.

It's certainly an interesting argument, one I don't necessarily disagree with (at least in broad strokes).  Where are you trying to date the 4T/1T transition in "Germany" then, the Peace of Basel?

Basel is definitly part of the transition, but I would tend more to Campo Fornio.

[SomeGuy]

(02-04-2017, 12:01 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 11:44 AM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 10:25 AM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-03-2017, 05:56 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-03-2017, 05:49 PM)freivolk Wrote: Even the american 4T goes till 1794. Why shouldn´t the continental 4T last till 1800? I personal think the continental 4T ends with the War of the Second Coalition. The French Revolution has ended, the new order of Napoleon is full established and the old order of the HRE is destroyed.

The argument that the Revolutionary Wars is a 4T and the Napoleonic era (with attendant wars) was a 1T is common on this site.  That still ignores that the things you are talking about in Germany didn't occur in the (proposed) 4T, they happened after 1806.  And the German Confederation that was the dominant political order in what would become Germany, wasn't instituted until 1815.

1806 is just the formalisation of the end of the HRE. After the french victory in both coalition wars it was obvious, that the structure the empire was build upon was destroyed. Instead hundereds of imperial principalities we have now roughly 3 dotzend states. We have also keep in mind, that continental Europe is dominated by France, which enforce his vision of the 1T on the german states. This napoleonic 1T was cut short by the War of the Fifth Coaltion, which leaded to the need of a new political structure for Europe after the collapse of the french dominance. 1815 is therefore not the beginning of a german 1T, it is the beginning of the continental 2T, because the prophets which fought in the Wars of 1813/15 never really acccepts the restauratives insti´tution of 1815.

It's certainly an interesting argument, one I don't necessarily disagree with (at least in broad strokes).  Where are you trying to date the 4T/1T transition in "Germany" then, the Peace of Basel?

Basel is definitly part of the transition, but I would tend more to Campo Fornio.

For Germany?  Are you lumping Austria and Germany together, then?

[freivolk]

(02-04-2017, 12:04 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:01 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 11:44 AM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 10:25 AM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-03-2017, 05:56 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: The argument that the Revolutionary Wars is a 4T and the Napoleonic era (with attendant wars) was a 1T is common on this site.  That still ignores that the things you are talking about in Germany didn't occur in the (proposed) 4T, they happened after 1806.  And the German Confederation that was the dominant political order in what would become Germany, wasn't instituted until 1815.

1806 is just the formalisation of the end of the HRE. After the french victory in both coalition wars it was obvious, that the structure the empire was build upon was destroyed. Instead hundereds of imperial principalities we have now roughly 3 dotzend states. We have also keep in mind, that continental Europe is dominated by France, which enforce his vision of the 1T on the german states. This napoleonic 1T was cut short by the War of the Fifth Coaltion, which leaded to the need of a new political structure for Europe after the collapse of the french dominance. 1815 is therefore not the beginning of a german 1T, it is the beginning of the continental 2T, because the prophets which fought in the Wars of 1813/15 never really acccepts the restauratives insti´tution of 1815.

It's certainly an interesting argument, one I don't necessarily disagree with (at least in broad strokes).  Where are you trying to date the 4T/1T transition in "Germany" then, the Peace of Basel?

Basel is definitly part of the transition, but I would tend more to Campo Fornio.

For Germany?  Are you lumping Austria and Germany together, then?

I think Austria and Germany can be seperatet at this time. Austria is to integral for the HRE at this time. A clear seperation doesn´t happend before 1866 as part of the next crisis.

[SomeGuy]

(02-04-2017, 12:09 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:04 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:01 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 11:44 AM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 10:25 AM)freivolk Wrote: 1806 is just the formalisation of the end of the HRE. After the french victory in both coalition wars it was obvious, that the structure the empire was build upon was destroyed. Instead hundereds of imperial principalities we have now roughly 3 dotzend states. We have also keep in mind, that continental Europe is dominated by France, which enforce his vision of the 1T on the german states. This napoleonic 1T was cut short by the War of the Fifth Coaltion, which leaded to the need of a new political structure for Europe after the collapse of the french dominance. 1815 is therefore not the beginning of a german 1T, it is the beginning of the continental 2T, because the prophets which fought in the Wars of 1813/15 never really acccepts the restauratives insti´tution of 1815.

It's certainly an interesting argument, one I don't necessarily disagree with (at least in broad strokes).  Where are you trying to date the 4T/1T transition in "Germany" then, the Peace of Basel?

Basel is definitly part of the transition, but I would tend more to Campo Fornio.

For Germany?  Are you lumping Austria and Germany together, then?

I think Austria and Germany can be seperatet at this time. Austria is to integral for the HRE at this time. A clear seperation doesn´t happend before 1866 as part of the next crisis.

I am not sure I agree.  Prussia and Austria were fairly distinct at this time, and the Austrian Empire extended well outside the HRE, which was basically a legal fiction at this time, anyways.

But let's say you're right, why was the saeculum truncated in the 19th century, in Europe as well as the US.

[freivolk]

(02-04-2017, 12:25 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:09 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:04 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:01 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 11:44 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: It's certainly an interesting argument, one I don't necessarily disagree with (at least in broad strokes).  Where are you trying to date the 4T/1T transition in "Germany" then, the Peace of Basel?

Basel is definitly part of the transition, but I would tend more to Campo Fornio.

For Germany?  Are you lumping Austria and Germany together, then?

I think Austria and Germany can be seperatet at this time. Austria is to integral for the HRE at this time. A clear seperation doesn´t happend before 1866 as part of the next crisis.

I am not sure I agree.  Prussia and Austria were fairly distinct at this time, and the Austrian Empire extended well outside the HRE, which was basically a legal fiction at this time, anyways.

But let's say you're right, why was the saeculum truncated in the 19th century, in Europe as well as the US.

I would say in Europe we had rather short 1T and 2T as a results of the Napoleonic Wars. The USA had an extreme short 4T with the Civil war.
My theory for the european saeculum: 1T ca. 1800 -1815, 2T 1815 -1830 (July-revolution in France triggers other european uprising), 3T 1830-1848 (european revolutions), 4T 1848-1871 (end of german-french war)

[SomeGuy]

It's an interesting idea.

[Eric the Green]

(02-04-2017, 12:48 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:25 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:09 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:04 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:01 PM)freivolk Wrote: Basel is definitly part of the transition, but I would tend more to Campo Fornio.

For Germany?  Are you lumping Austria and Germany together, then?

I think Austria and Germany can be seperatet at this time. Austria is to integral for the HRE at this time. A clear seperation doesn´t happend before 1866 as part of the next crisis.

I am not sure I agree.  Prussia and Austria were fairly distinct at this time, and the Austrian Empire extended well outside the HRE, which was basically a legal fiction at this time, anyways.

But let's say you're right, why was the saeculum truncated in the 19th century, in Europe as well as the US.

I would say in Europe we had rather short 1T and 2T as a result of the Napoleonic Wars. The USA had an extreme short 4T with the Civil war.
My theory for the european saeculum: 1T ca. 1800 -1815, 2T 1815 -1830 (July-revolution in France triggers other european uprising), 3T 1830-1848 (european revolutions), 4T 1848-1871 (end of german-french war)

Very close to what I would say. 

1T 1799-1815
2T 1815-1834 (that's extending it a bit, but there was a strong and spirited revolt in France, and a major and successful reform movement in Britain, in 1832, and another uprising in 1834 that was suppressed and was the last one until 1848. The 1832 French revolt is memorialized in Les Miserables).
3T 1834-1848
4T 1848-1871

I think in America it was more parallel to Europe than S&H say.
1T 1794-1821
2T 1821-1835
3T 1835-1850
4T 1850-1865

Anyway you look at it, this 19th century saeculum was shorter, reflecting the speed-up because of the transition to modern times. Many people suddenly entering the cycle; whereas before the Revolution only the elites participated. And the continuing struggle to establish modernity in both Europe and America.

Some say the 1T could have started in the 1780s; maybe 1783 when the Revolution was won, with the 4T starting with the tensions with King George after the 7 Years War. That would mean moving up the other dates too.

[freivolk]

(02-04-2017, 01:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:48 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:25 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:09 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:04 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: For Germany?  Are you lumping Austria and Germany together, then?

I think Austria and Germany can be seperatet at this time. Austria is to integral for the HRE at this time. A clear seperation doesn´t happend before 1866 as part of the next crisis.

I am not sure I agree.  Prussia and Austria were fairly distinct at this time, and the Austrian Empire extended well outside the HRE, which was basically a legal fiction at this time, anyways.

But let's say you're right, why was the saeculum truncated in the 19th century, in Europe as well as the US.

I would say in Europe we had rather short 1T and 2T as a result of the Napoleonic Wars. The USA had an extreme short 4T with the Civil war.
My theory for the european saeculum: 1T ca. 1800 -1815, 2T 1815 -1830 (July-revolution in France triggers other european uprising), 3T 1830-1848 (european revolutions), 4T 1848-1871 (end of german-french war)

Very close to what I would say. 

1T 1799-1815
2T 1815-1834 (that's extending it a bit, but there was a strong and spirited revolt in France, and a major and successful reform movement in Britain, in 1832, and another uprising in 1834 that was suppressed and was the last one until 1848. The 1832 French revolt is memorialized in Les Miserables).
3T 1834-1848
4T 1848-1871

I think in America it was more parallel to Europe than S&H say.
1T 1794-1821
2T 1821-1835
3T 1835-1850
4T 1850-1865

Anyway you look at it, this 19th century saeculum was shorter, reflecting the speed-up because of the transition to modern times. Many people suddenly entering the cycle; whereas before the Revolution only the elites participated. And the continuing struggle to establish modernity in both Europe and America.

Some say the 1T could have started in the 1780s; maybe 1783 when the Revolution was won, with the 4T starting with the tensions with King George after the 7 Years War. That would mean moving up the other dates too.

I´m also not sure about US 4T=Civil War. 1850 could easily be the beginning of a crisis period. Still there seems to be the lack of a clear cut hero gneration post 1865.

[Eric the Green]

(02-04-2017, 12:25 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:09 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:04 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:01 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 11:44 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: It's certainly an interesting argument, one I don't necessarily disagree with (at least in broad strokes).  Where are you trying to date the 4T/1T transition in "Germany" then, the Peace of Basel?

Basel is definitly part of the transition, but I would tend more to Campo Fornio.

For Germany?  Are you lumping Austria and Germany together, then?

I think Austria and Germany can be seperatet at this time. Austria is to integral for the HRE at this time. A clear seperation doesn´t happend before 1866 as part of the next crisis.

I am not sure I agree.  Prussia and Austria were fairly distinct at this time, and the Austrian Empire extended well outside the HRE, which was basically a legal fiction at this time, anyways.

But let's say you're right, why was the saeculum truncated in the 19th century, in Europe as well as the US.

The early-modern saeculum tended to drag along at 100+ years. The Revolution (symbolized by the discovery of Uranus in 1781) speeded up the pace of change from the glacial progress of medieval and renaissance times, in which only the elite had any part in politics, and sons followed the careers of their fathers. The population began to increase and life-spans lengthened as modern times dawned in the Revolution (industrial, political, romantic; all-Western). The new 82-83 year cycle kicks in with the Revolution and interrupts the usual medieval pace of the early turnings of the civil war saeculum, or makes them into hybrids. Same with the generations.

[Eric the Green]

(02-04-2017, 01:19 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 01:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:48 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:25 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:09 PM)freivolk Wrote: I think Austria and Germany can be seperatet at this time. Austria is to integral for the HRE at this time. A clear seperation doesn´t happend before 1866 as part of the next crisis.

I am not sure I agree.  Prussia and Austria were fairly distinct at this time, and the Austrian Empire extended well outside the HRE, which was basically a legal fiction at this time, anyways.

But let's say you're right, why was the saeculum truncated in the 19th century, in Europe as well as the US.

I would say in Europe we had rather short 1T and 2T as a result of the Napoleonic Wars. The USA had an extreme short 4T with the Civil war.
My theory for the european saeculum: 1T ca. 1800 -1815, 2T 1815 -1830 (July-revolution in France triggers other european uprising), 3T 1830-1848 (european revolutions), 4T 1848-1871 (end of german-french war)

Very close to what I would say. 

1T 1799-1815
2T 1815-1834 (that's extending it a bit, but there was a strong and spirited revolt in France, and a major and successful reform movement in Britain, in 1832, and another uprising in 1834 that was suppressed and was the last one until 1848. The 1832 French revolt is memorialized in Les Miserables).
3T 1834-1848
4T 1848-1871

I think in America it was more parallel to Europe than S&H say.
1T 1794-1821
2T 1821-1835
3T 1835-1850
4T 1850-1865

Anyway you look at it, this 19th century saeculum was shorter, reflecting the speed-up because of the transition to modern times. Many people suddenly entering the cycle; whereas before the Revolution only the elites participated. And the continuing struggle to establish modernity in both Europe and America.

Some say the 1T could have started in the 1780s; maybe 1783 when the Revolution was won, with the 4T starting with the tensions with King George after the 7 Years War. That would mean moving up the other dates too.

I´m also not sure about  US 4T=Civil War. 1850 could easily be the beginning of a crisis period. Still there seems to be the lack of a clear cut hero generation post 1865.

Yes, although the Gilded and Progressive both had some hero traits. The Civil War historian Shelby Foote described how the soldiers had civic and moral values instilled into them. Many born in the 1840s and 50s became civic leaders who pushed reform in the progressive movement later on. 1Ts are not dominated by civic generations, but by nomads, and generally are conformist and materialist. The Gilded Age was no different from other 1Ts in those respects.