Fascism is on the ballot

[Classic-Xer]

(10-13-2020, 10:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Classic Xer, Democrats don't really offer "minorities" that many special perks these days. Affirmative action is not legislation that Democrats have passed lately, and it is in decline. In CA, a "majority-minority" state, we have the chance to vote it back into law this election (Prop.16). But otherwise, I don't see any race-based perks going on. They do provide some class-based protections, to the extent that they can (which has been very limited on the federal level since Reagan). Most social and anti-poverty programs have been cut, and social work is carried out by the police under Reaganomics. But since you think welfare and affordable health care are mostly given to "minorities," that shows the basic racial bias in your statement. Under Republicans, we live in an unequal society in which a few bosses own most of the wealth, and many people are not paid appropriately for their work.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=173308866679555

Republicans offer a failed economy all of the time. Lower taxes does not produce economic growth, except for the wealthy business interests (probably including you), and the "constitutional rights" they protect are limited to the right to carry assault rifles so you can parade around and intimidate people or massacre people or join a stupid private militia, and the right to discriminate against gays based on your religion.

Classic Xer, Democrats don't really offer "minorities" that many special perks these days. Affirmative action is not legislation that Democrats have passed lately, and it is in decline. In CA, a "majority-minority" state, we have the chance to vote it back into law this election (Prop.16). But otherwise, I don't see any race-based perks going on. They do provide some class-based protections, to the extent that they can (which has been very limited on the federal level since Reagan). Most social and anti-poverty programs have been cut, and social work is carried out by the police under Reaganomics. But since you think welfare and affordable health care are mostly given to "minorities," that shows the basic racial bias in your statement. Under Republicans, we live in an unequal society in which a few bosses own most of the wealth, and many people are not paid appropriately for their work.





same video:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=173308866679555


Today, Republicans are forcing upon us a supreme court justice whom Trump has appointed specifically to rule in favor of his lawsuits about the election which have been rejected by lower courts, and thus give him the presidency even if Biden wins the election by over 350 electoral votes and a 10%-plus popular vote margin! Republicans are totally ruthless, lawless and immoral! Vote the Classic Xers out of power!

Republicans have packed the Courts with reactionaries that favor bosses over the rights of employees, customers, and the environment and climate we depend on.

You didn't watch/see Kamala during the debate the other night. She was there because she qualifies as being a minority woman and that's it. I hate to burst your bubble but you people are the only to make America your enemy. It nice to see a blue billionaire buying influence with minority workers instead of relying on our tax dollars to do it for him. I saw a blue billionaire on Fox the other night making a pitch for the Green New Deal and telling us that Morgan Stanley offered its services and all its resources as the primary means to transfer trillions of dollars the other night and how great it would be for Americans? It kind of reminded me about NAFTA and the way NAFTA was sold to Americans during the early 90's. Like I said, the MacBeths are on your side and it won't be long until the MacBeth's replace the Hamlets. Nature always wins.

[David Horn]

(10-12-2020, 01:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Indeed, and as for the Republicans doing damage to the Democrats in the next four years, could it match what they have already done in the last 40? I wonder what further damage could they do.

We said much the same about Trump when he first took office, and he's outperformed(?) the worst we could imagine at the time.  Don't discount the ability of slime to ooze everywhere.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-14-2020, 09:23 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-12-2020, 01:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Indeed, and as for the Republicans doing damage to the Democrats in the next four years, could it match what they have already done in the last 40? I wonder what further damage could they do.

We said much the same about Trump when he first took office, and he's outperformed(?) the worst we could imagine at the time.  Don't discount the ability of slime to ooze everywhere.

One can hope for the rhythm of the turnings.  The old values go kaput in a crisis.  The majority for the working man rather than the racist is key.  With Global Warming on deck, the progressives may hold the edge through the crisis, high and awakening.  While 2016 has left blue folk all nervous, and Trump embodies the old values and showed how bad they were, how things had to change, there is reason to hope things may go well.


(Cross fingers.  Hang a horseshoe.  Act nervous.)

[pbrower2a]

(10-13-2020, 11:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-13-2020, 10:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Classic Xer, Democrats don't really offer "minorities" that many special perks these days. Affirmative action is not legislation that Democrats have passed lately, and it is in decline. In CA, a "majority-minority" state, we have the chance to vote it back into law this election (Prop.16). But otherwise, I don't see any race-based perks going on. They do provide some class-based protections, to the extent that they can (which has been very limited on the federal level since Reagan). Most social and anti-poverty programs have been cut, and social work is carried out by the police under Reaganomics. But since you think welfare and affordable health care are mostly given to "minorities," that shows the basic racial bias in your statement. Under Republicans, we live in an unequal society in which a few bosses own most of the wealth, and many people are not paid appropriately for their work.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=173308866679555

Republicans offer a failed economy all of the time. Lower taxes does not produce economic growth, except for the wealthy business interests (probably including you), and the "constitutional rights" they protect are limited to the right to carry assault rifles so you can parade around and intimidate people or massacre people or join a stupid private militia, and the right to discriminate against gays based on your religion.

Classic Xer, Democrats don't really offer "minorities" that many special perks these days. Affirmative action is not legislation that Democrats have passed lately, and it is in decline. In CA, a "majority-minority" state, we have the chance to vote it back into law this election (Prop.16). But otherwise, I don't see any race-based perks going on. They do provide some class-based protections, to the extent that they can (which has been very limited on the federal level since Reagan). Most social and anti-poverty programs have been cut, and social work is carried out by the police under Reaganomics. But since you think welfare and affordable health care are mostly given to "minorities," that shows the basic racial bias in your statement. Under Republicans, we live in an unequal society in which a few bosses own most of the wealth, and many people are not paid appropriately for their work.





same video:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=173308866679555


Today, Republicans are forcing upon us a supreme court justice whom Trump has appointed specifically to rule in favor of his lawsuits about the election which have been rejected by lower courts, and thus give him the presidency even if Biden wins the election by over 350 electoral votes and a 10%-plus popular vote margin! Republicans are totally ruthless, lawless and immoral! Vote the Classic Xers out of power!

Republicans have packed the Courts with reactionaries that favor bosses over the rights of employees, customers, and the environment and climate we depend on.

You didn't watch/see Kamala during the debate the other night. She was there because she qualifies as being a minority woman and that's it. I hate to burst your bubble but you people are the only to make America your enemy. It nice to see a blue billionaire buying influence with minority workers instead of relying on our tax dollars to do it for him. I saw a blue billionaire on Fox the other night making a pitch for the Green New Deal and telling us that Morgan Stanley offered its services and all its resources as the primary means to transfer trillions of dollars the other night and how great it would be for Americans? It kind of reminded me about NAFTA and the way NAFTA was sold to Americans during the early 90's. Like I said, the MacBeths are on your side and it won't be long until the MacBeth's replace the Hamlets. Nature always wins.

Elections are not decided on any concept of affirmative action in America. If you wish to claim that Kamala Harris became a US Senator through some form of electoral fraud, then prove it. Just because you dislike the result does not indicate fraud. 

...now what is so insidious about the Green New Deal? It is an attempt to wean us away from burning fossil fuels. Fossil fuels are non-renewable resources, and as they become scarcer or more difficult (or destructive) to extract, they become more expensive to use, and an economy that depends upon them sputters. The world is then committed to using such renewable resources as there are (such as grains for horses or wood for steam locomotives) to revert to a pre-technological era. Welcome to the early 19th century -- with several times as many people. 

Another complication of the use of non-renewable resources is global warming that will inundate some prime farmland on which are settled hundreds of millions of peasant farmers who feed some rapidly-industrializing countries. So those peasant farmers go to the cities beyond the reach of the rising seas. Question: who feeds them? Meanwhile, land surfaces and the air above them get warmer and crops need more precipitation. What if the rainfall does not keep up? A place like Spain or central Texas becomes too dry for growing crops without irrigation. Semi-desert conditions begin to prevail in what was prime cropland.

There is no technological fix to ward off starvation, let alone the social stresses that mass hunger creates. 

A little hint to you, Classic X'er: your state (Minnesota) relies upon agriculture as the foundation of its economy. You may find winter blizzards unpleasant, but Minnesota grain farmers need winter blizzards to protect the soil moisture necessary for growing crops in the non-growing season and for supplying ground moisture for thirsty crops either germinating in the spring or starting to grow again after having been planted before the winter (winter wheat). Obviously I need some word other than "snowflake" to describe people who find blizzards unduly constricting to their ways of life. For people from my state (Michigan) and yours there is a way out of that cold and snow. Let me spell it out:

F-L-O-R-I-D-A

(Let's see... from the Twin Cities you go east on I-94 to near "Scary, Indiana" and head south on I-65, cutting east somewhere to  get to I-75 [most likely I-74 at Indianapolis or I-24 at Nashville] and enjoy the fun in the sun. Great, huh?) Heck, you would probably meet some grain farmers from Minnesota and the Dakotas getting away from the nasty blizzards, too. 

Of course, global warming would inundate much of Florida, so bye-bye Miami, Tampa-St. Pete, Daytona Beach, Palm Beach, etc. 

Eric has it right. Donald Trump has little credibility as a leader, and if he wins he will have even less. If you think he has the Armed Forces behind him, think again: he is the worst sort of Commander-in-Chief that we could possibly have. He wants his own glory but he holds the soldiers in contempt as cannon fodder. The intelligence services also despise him. He is accustomed to ordering people about as if they were expendable servants because seemingly everyone wants to have some connection to His Wonder as a Person. 

Let me contrast him to the last President who had no experience in elective office, Dwight Eisenhower (yes, he was an above-average President because of his integrity and his understanding of the system with little desire to shake up things that did not need shaking up) well knew the difference between military and civilian life. The rap on Ike going into 1952 was that as a General he had learned to order people about who didn't have to obey him to the letter. He proved such people wrong. Trump barks out orders to people who depend upon him for... whatever ... and when something goes wrong he faults them instead of his ill-conceived plans, questionable legality of his orders, and incompatibility of his 'vision' with the natural constraints of core reality. Government is a huge enterprise, but it does not operate as a for-profit entity. Really, you do not want the government competing with private industry and relying upon state enterprises to meet budgetary requirements, and there are parts of government (the military, law enforcement, the legal and penal system, the  welfare system, and emergency aid) that cannot operate on a for-profit system. Above all, you do not want the government maximizing the take from taxes!

Eisenhower was a fine President, and as you can see I have compared Obama to Ike. Trump is about as toxic a leader as there is.

[Isoko]

ClassicXer, 

I hate to break it to you but the main Trump support/anti BLM coalition is mainly older white people that "want their country back." The vast majority of Americas millenials support the left. They are going to vote Biden. There is not going to be a right wing push back. Trump himself is very much a "last hurrah" in that factor. 

Its not what right wingers like to hear but it is the truth. I guess I've started to look at the bigger picture more objectively and I sort of find myself agreeing more with Eric and the other boomers.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-14-2020, 12:43 PM)Isoko Wrote: ClassicXer, 

I hate to break it to you but the main Trump support/anti BLM coalition is mainly older white people that "want their country back." The vast majority of Americas millenials support the left. They are going to vote Biden. There is not going to be a right wing push back. Trump himself is very much a "last hurrah" in that factor. 

Its not what right wingers like to hear but it is the truth. I guess I've started to look at the bigger picture more objectively and I sort of find myself agreeing more with Eric and the other boomers.

During my younger days, the phrase was "That does not compute."  Not that I don't agree with you on the above, but the tribal mind set cannot wrap itself around what you suggest.  The time will come, compatible with Yorktown, Appomattox or the Missouri in Tokyo Bay, when the old culture has to let go and you have to adapt to reality.  Even then a few cling to the old, and it is possible that Classic could very well be one of the few.

In the 2022 midterms we will see if and how the Republicans can reconstitute themselves as a real force after the Trump era.  I an dubious.  The racist, establishment, worker and elite factions of the party seem too opposed.  Somebody has to win, but they went way past the point of diminishing returns on small government, the selfish time of the unraveling has passed, the elites are viewed with suspicion, and there seem to be more votes for the workers than for prejudice.  They can hold something together, or multiple somethings, but I don't see them overpowering the Democrats for several generations.

But Classic will be absurdly be late to the party.

[Isoko]

Bob, 

I agree more with the Eric the Green these days because what he is saying actually seems to be he way the world is heading in. How did I come to that conclusion? Living in Russia and hearing the talk from the younger generation. Good quality of life, the right to freely work and travel wherever you want, more liberalism. I realised to myself that the days of the right wing are over.

Of course, it will take some more time before the world fully converges into one but the trend is there. Nationalism is the harbinger of the old who want the past back. ClassicXer reminds me of all the good old comrades in Russia who miss uncle Joe and want the Soviet Union back. Same thing with the MAGA people. They want their old white country back. 

But the times have changed. A new generation is going to assemble onto the steps of power and they are more focused on climate change and Liberal ideas rather then the right of old. 

Originally even I was right wing. I hated the idea of us all becoming one. But I started to see things differently. I saw Trump making an even greater fool of himself, the demands of the Belarusian youth, the BLM movement and I realised - we cannot fight change. We have to embrace it.

I'd rather embrace the future then cling onto the past. After all, if the past was so great, why did it not endure? Why did people want change in the first place?

Eventually Russia will change too. Iran will change. China will change. Japan is already changing as is South Korea. The future of Europe is multiracial. 

That said, I sort of still disagree with Eric that the future will be left wing. I think that people are starting to get tired of the left, at least in the West. I think the future belongs ultimately to the centrist with swings to centre right and centre left culture depending on the mood of the times. But centrist it will be.

[beechnut79]

(10-14-2020, 03:22 PM)Isoko Wrote: Bob, 

I agree more with the Eric the Green these days because what he is saying actually seems to be he way the world is heading in. How did I come to that conclusion? Living in Russia and hearing the talk from the younger generation. Good quality of life, the right to freely work and travel wherever you want, more liberalism. I realised to myself that the days of the right wing are over.

Of course, it will take some more time before the world fully converges into one but the trend is there. Nationalism is the harbinger of the old who want the past back. ClassicXer reminds me of all the good old comrades in Russia who miss uncle Joe and want the Soviet Union back. Same thing with the MAGA people. They want their old white country back. 

But the times have changed. A new generation is going to assemble onto the steps of power and they are more focused on climate change and Liberal ideas rather then the right of old. 

Originally even I was right wing. I hated the idea of us all becoming one. But I started to see things differently. I saw Trump making an even greater fool of himself, the demands of the Belarusian youth, the BLM movement and I realised - we cannot fight change. We have to embrace it.

I'd rather embrace the future then cling onto the past. After all, if the past was so great, why did it not endure? Why did people want change in the first place?

Eventually Russia will change too. Iran will change. China will change. Japan is already changing as is South Korea. The future of Europe is multiracial. 

That said, I sort of still disagree with Eric that the future will be left wing. I think that people are starting to get tired of the left, at least in the West. I think the future belongs ultimately to the centrist with swings to centre right and centre left culture depending on the mood of the times. But centrist it will be.

P1:  The RW is definitely hanging tough though, which may be a big reason why change in a more positive direction has been so slow to come. Never dreamed that the impact of Reaganomics will hang on for going on a half century. It has been pointed out here that everything feels a little more intense when we move deeper into a 4T; the opposite of the 2T which tends to be more front-loaded with the bulk of the action coming in the turning's opening years.

P2:  I originally thought the the MAGA slogan meant trying for a return of the days when one person can hold the same job for decades and retire with a gold watch.  Very few believe we can return to that culture even in the forthcoming 1T.  If nothing else, I doubt that today's womanhood would ever put up with returning to the kitchen.

P3: A rewrite of a classic early Bob Dylan song might be apropos here. (The times they are a-changin', again)  But many on this forum including me go back far enough to remember how activist Boomers were on all these thing during their youth when peace, love and understanding was their mantra.

P4: Never really considered myself to be right wing but was born and raised Republican when the party wasn't as extreme as it became since Reagan. Gerald Ford may have been among the last moderate Republicans but Democrats have also done much worshipping at the altar of the corporate trough as well.  I am probably one of those rare birds who became more liberal as he aged.  One story I read did seem to indicate the possibility of Boomers once again becoming more liberal in their old age.  I was though not in favor of union domination in my earlier years but later came to realize that workers were in many ways better off when they had more clout, although some of them probably had too much.

P5: A classic Biblical passage that was turned into a popular song tells the story.

P6: Japan and Germany both changed dramatically following WWII and eventually overtook our prowess in some ways.

P7: But yet that happy medium is always a very elusive thing. Something we never really seem to achieve. Even nature provides us with an equinox twice a year.

[Eric the Green]

(10-14-2020, 03:22 PM)Isoko Wrote: That said, I sort of still disagree with Eric that the future will be left wing. I think that people are starting to get tired of the left, at least in the West. I think the future belongs ultimately to the centrist with swings to centre right and centre left culture depending on the mood of the times. But centrist it will be.

I sort of agree, as long as you realize that the center gradually moves left over time, although in fits and starts and cycles. The moral arc of the universe is long, but it moves and bends toward justice. Left means progress toward justice, broadly defined. You could even extend that to the history life on Earth and call it evolution-- creative evolution, that is! Humans continue to evolve, and life presses out and grows better and better. That is our nature, our very being now!

[Classic-Xer]

(10-14-2020, 12:43 PM)Isoko Wrote: ClassicXer, 

I hate to break it to you but the main Trump support/anti BLM coalition is mainly older white people that "want their country back." The vast majority of Americas millenials support the left. They are going to vote Biden. There is not going to be a right wing push back. Trump himself is very much a "last hurrah" in that factor. 

Its not what right wingers like to hear but it is the truth. I guess I've started to look at the bigger picture more objectively and I sort of find myself agreeing more with Eric and the other boomers.

You have your opinion, I have my opinion, we'll see who is right. You should probably ask Eric, how many times that I've been proven right over the years? Yes, I've been hearing that the vast majority of the Millies support the Left from the Left for many years and I even saw that what they said was true with Obama and the Democratic party of the time. Is Biden a Berniecrat or an old age Democrat who has lost the bulk of his luster? Does Obama have the same luster as he did back then? Americans tend to vote to move forward during crisis's despite the Democratic tendency to want to move backwards and return to the way things were before the crisis. The Democratic challenger during the Civil War, a wishy washy general who was more concerned about loosing than focused on taking the initiative and winning ran on making peace with the Confederacy and allow the Confederacy to keep its slaves. I'm sorry but Biden and his Liberal sidekick/replacement aren't strong enough leaders to represent the interests of this country and keep this country together at the same time.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-14-2020, 06:07 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-14-2020, 03:22 PM)Isoko Wrote: That said, I sort of still disagree with Eric that the future will be left wing. I think that people are starting to get tired of the left, at least in the West. I think the future belongs ultimately to the centrist with swings to centre right and centre left culture depending on the mood of the times. But centrist it will be.

I sort of agree, as long as you realize that the center gradually moves left over time, although in fits and starts and cycles. The moral arc of the universe is long, but it moves and bends toward justice. Left means progress toward justice, broadly defined. You could even extend that to the history life on Earth and call it evolution-- creative evolution, that is! Humans continue to evolve, and life presses out and grows better and better. That is our nature, our very being now!

Do you truly represent justice? Does justice turn a blind eye to criminal acts being committed and break laws/ ignore laws as a means to protect them and then prosecute the victims of crimes who still believe in their right to use a gun to defend themselves and their property from gangs of criminals? It's Liberal justice that your side represents and it was Liberal justice that emboldened and empowered the Bolshevik's and the Nazi's as well. I don't think you realize that American justice is a double edged sword that can cut both ways.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-12-2020, 09:57 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-11-2020, 01:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: To be honest, I think the Republicans will tone down on Trump's racial rhetoric but they will keep key policies that work with American voters. Combating illegal immigration, "America First" economic policies, slowly withdrawing from Europe and Asia, etc. I would say that with such policies and a smart candidate, Republicans could do well in future elections.

I think Trump has done to the Republican Party what Reagan did. He has transformed what the party stands for and there is no going back. Moderate those views, include other ethnic groups rather then catering to the white only crowd and you do have a winning formula.

I'm not sure that there is a moderating force in the Trumpsphere that can do what you suggest.  When your message is fear and hate, you need someone to fear and hate ... period.

Yep. So, other than fear and hate, what's been your message and the Democratic party's message to the rest America? You've been using the two and they've running off them and capitalizing from them for how many years now?

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-14-2020, 08:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do you truly represent justice? Does justice turn a blind eye to criminal acts being committed and break laws/ ignore laws as a means to protect them and then prosecute the victims of crimes who still believe in their right to use a gun to defend themselves and their property from gangs of criminals? It's Liberal justice that your side represents and it was Liberal justice that emboldened and empowered the Bolshevik's and the Nazi's as well. I don't think you realize that American justice is a double edged sword that can cut both ways.

Our problem is red folk looking for injustice. There are the bad cops murdering minorities, the Proud Boys driving though black neighborhoods shooting, the Wolverine Watchmen looking to kidnap people and blow up things, the secret police cheerfully going where the local authorities are trying to get rid of them, the Neo Nazi, the KKK, etc…

There are less than sterling people on both sides, but it is the tribal thinking folk who are looking for an excuse to hate that is a problem. You can defend your property all you like, but you haven’t done anything, have you? It is primarily the red folk going where they are not wanted that have been the problem.

I can renounce people into violence on both sides all I like, but I am seeing you renouncing violence only when it furthers your political agenda.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-14-2020, 01:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-14-2020, 12:43 PM)Isoko Wrote: ClassicXer, 

I hate to break it to you but the main Trump support/anti BLM coalition is mainly older white people that "want their country back." The vast majority of Americas millenials support the left. They are going to vote Biden. There is not going to be a right wing push back. Trump himself is very much a "last hurrah" in that factor. 

Its not what right wingers like to hear but it is the truth. I guess I've started to look at the bigger picture more objectively and I sort of find myself agreeing more with Eric and the other boomers.

During my younger days, the phrase was "That does not compute."  Not that I don't agree with you on the above, but the tribal mind set cannot wrap itself around what you suggest.  The time will come, compatible with Yorktown, Appomattox or the Missouri in Tokyo Bay, when the old culture has to let go and you have to adapt to reality.  Even then a few cling to the old, and it is possible that Classic could very well be one of the few.

In the 2022 midterms we will see if and how the Republicans can reconstitute themselves as a real force after the Trump era.  I an dubious.  The racist, establishment, worker and elite factions of the party seem too opposed.  Somebody has to win, but they went way past the point of diminishing returns on small government, the selfish time of the unraveling has passed, the elites are viewed with suspicion, and there seem to be more votes for the workers than for prejudice.  They can hold something together, or multiple somethings, but I don't see them overpowering the Democrats for several generations.

But Classic will be absurdly be late to the party.

I don't think you completely grasp what you represent to the rest of America these days. You represent the end of America and you seem happy about it for some strange reason. I suppose liberty doesn't mean as much to a handicapped individual who can't do much other than read or post views on a forum that he has been using for his own reasons for many years or watch the coastal news channels affiliated with the Democratic party and watch his show hosts who are paid to cater to his worldview, his beliefs and values. Are the Democrats worth the sacrifices/headaches that will needed to remain with them or would America be better off without them? Like you, I do believe that this election will determine the direct of this country and I accept that this country may not remain fully intact. Right now, you're leaning and relying on old laurels that the Democratic party has been taking advantage of and weakening for many years.

[Classic-Xer]

Bob Butler 54

(10-14-2020, 08:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do you truly represent justice? Does justice turn a blind eye to criminal acts being committed and break laws/ ignore laws as a means to protect them and then prosecute the victims of crimes who still believe in their right to use a gun to defend themselves and their property from gangs of criminals? It's Liberal justice that your side represents and it was Liberal justice that emboldened and empowered the Bolshevik's and the Nazi's as well. I don't think you realize that American justice is a double edged sword that can cut both ways.

Our problem is red folk looking for injustice.  There are the bad cops murdering minorities, the Proud Boys driving though black neighborhoods shooting, the Wolverine Watchmen looking to kidnap people and blow up things, the secret police cheerfully going where the local authorities are trying to get rid of them, the Neo Nazi, the KKK, etc…

There are less than sterling people on both sides, but it is the tribal thinking folk who are looking for an excuse to hate that is a problem.  You can defend your property all you like, but you haven’t done anything, have you?  It is primarily the red folk going where they are not wanted that have been the problem.

I can renounce people into violence on both sides all I like, but I am seeing you renouncing violence only when it furthers your political agenda.
I think it's very clear that the blue media is in the business of seeking injustice and exploiting it without concern of the overall damage that it may cause. I doubt you'll find many KKK living in Minneapolis or St. Paul. Yes, there are less sterling people on both sides. The Democrats just seem to have a lot more of them these days.

[David Horn]

(10-14-2020, 10:34 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't think you completely grasp what you represent to the rest of America these days. You represent the end of America and you seem happy about it for some strange reason. I suppose liberty doesn't mean as much to a handicapped individual who can't do much other than read or post views on a forum that he has been using for his own reasons for many years or watch the coastal news channels affiliated with the Democratic party and watch his show hosts who are paid to cater to his worldview, his beliefs and values. Are the Democrats worth the sacrifices/headaches that will needed to remain with them or would America be better off without them? Like you, I do believe that this election will determine the direct of this country and I accept that this country may not remain fully intact. Right now, you're leaning and relying on old laurels that the Democratic party has been taking advantage of and weakening for many years.

Hubris and condescension in the same post. You're really reaching.  Just for a quick point of reference, your side is in the minority just about everywhere. The majority doesn't get to define America, even less so the minority.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-14-2020, 11:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think it's very clear that the blue media is in the business of seeking injustice and exploiting it without concern of the overall damage that it may cause. I doubt you'll find many KKK living in Minneapolis or St. Paul. Yes, there are less sterling people on both sides. The Democrats just seem to have a lot more of them these days.

I don't see how drawing attention to injustice is exploiting or causing damage. The intent is to make the injustice go away, which is a good thing. Are you in favor of injustice that you are defending it?

One of the central figures behind the racist violent cops is David Grossman, author of On Killing.  He made a big deal about how soldiers and cops need reinforcement from the people after doing their jobs, how people don’t like killing, how it is a good thing that the population get behind them after they do their duty.  A major distinction is in the behavior after Vietnam and how the people reacted after the recent Middle Eastern wars.  Returning Vietnam soldiers were blamed for being drafted and following orders.  More recently we may blame the politicians for war policy, but honor the soldiers regardless of what we think of the politicians.

This need for the public to applaud violent behavior can turn into a culture of encouraging violent behavior.  If there is an unjustified racial killing, it is excused as the cops think the public should always be behind police violence.  I am dubious.  The general public has a duty to be the conscience of those who use violence on their behalf.  If the violent people go astray, we are supposed to let them know about it.  We are supposed to try to stop it.

And we are seeing variants of it all over.  Whether it is the bad cops, the Proud Boys, Antifa, the Boogaloo Bois, the Wolverine Watchmen, Trump’s secret police, whatever.  The general trend is for the general public to say enough violence.  The general trend is that the violence stops.  The military stops taking part in action against the American people.  The secret police disappear from the headlines.  Everybody rejects the Boogaloo Bois.  The actions of the Proud Boys and Antifa are both rejected.  I don’t expect the various midwest militias to be plotting to kidnap elected officials in the near future.

The common theme is ‘bad violent extremists, bad’.  2020 may long be remembered as a bad year, but the people are winning.  It is looking to end.

You seem to be an exception with your obsession with violence.  Lot of talk.  No action.  You are still caught up in the Industrial Age pattern, when you needed violence to convince those with the old values to change.  Not clear that this is true anymore.  Note how the violence slows.

Agreed, the red violent extremists go by different names in different parts of the country.  They obsess on different issues.

I did visit the web site of the Twin City’s Star Tribune.  They did mention it would have been George Floyd’s birthday, but the protests and violence was not part of the coverage.  COVID was a big deal getting many articles.  The old high school is getting converted into apartments.  Things seem with the exception of COVID to have returned to normal.  

It is only when the red extremists go wild that there is a public rejection of their bad behavior.  Whether it is the Proud Boys shooting into crowds, bad cops being bad cops, militias kidnapping governors, Trump tear gassing peaceful protestors, I don’t see where the Democrats are the problem.  Antifa, maybe, but Antifa in its pure form are defenders against fascists.  Theirs is not what the Democrats are promoting, not part of their platform.

So your perception is what your politics leads you to see.  It has little to do with reality, not that paying attention to reality is a red strength.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-15-2020, 05:18 AM)David Horn Wrote: Hubris and condescension in the same post. You're really reaching.  Just for a quick point of reference, your side is in the minority just about everywhere. The majority doesn't get to define America, even less so the minority.

I would go further, that the extreme violent red minority defines less than the red minority.  They are fighting a rearguard action, attempting to hold values that were once much more common.

[pbrower2a]

(10-15-2020, 05:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-14-2020, 11:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think it's very clear that the blue media is in the business of seeking injustice and exploiting it without concern of the overall damage that it may cause. I doubt you'll find many KKK living in Minneapolis or St. Paul. Yes, there are less sterling people on both sides. The Democrats just seem to have a lot more of them these days.

I don't see how drawing attention to injustice is exploiting or causing damage.  The intent is to make the injustice go away, which is a good thing.  Are you in favor of injustice that you are defending it?

Resolution of violence obviously depends on either reducing injustice (a liberal and reformist solution) or compelling people to accept it as somehow inevitable and unavoidable (which implies repression of dissent). The former makes the community better. The latter causes the underlying pathology to worsen.   

Quote:One of the central figures behind the racist violent cops is David Grossman, author of On Killing.  He made a big deal about how soldiers and cops need reinforcement from the people after doing their jobs, how people don’t like killing, how it is a good thing that the population get behind them after they do their duty.  A major distinction is in the behavior after Vietnam and how the people reacted after the recent Middle Eastern wars.  Returning Vietnam soldiers were blamed for being drafted and following orders.  More recently we may blame the politicians for war policy, but honor the soldiers regardless of what we think of the politicians.

Obviously police work and combat are very different. Combat is rarely a career, but police work is. I wonder how many police never shoot anyone. Shooting is an objective of infantry and artillery, but for a cop that is a last choice. 

Democracies generally treat war as an abnormal situation, one to be avoided if possible.  That's not to say that democracies can't win wars; the only time in which the democracies did badly in war against an invader was 1940, when Hitler had the element of surprise against countries not cooperating until too late. 

Soldiers must be taught to give up their aversion to killing so that they can survive in battle. Recent soldiers returning to civilian life  must be taught that thoughts that make killing possible are no longer necessary or desirable. Soldiers follow orders that in the end civilians give. 

This need for the public to applaud violent behavior can turn into a culture of encouraging violent behavior.  If there is an unjustified racial killing, it is excused as the cops think the public should always be behind police violence.  I am dubious.  The general public has a duty to be the conscience of those who use violence on their behalf.  If the violent people go astray, we are supposed to let them know about it.  We are supposed to try to stop it.

Quote:And we are seeing variants of it all over.  Whether it is the bad cops, the Proud Boys, Antifa, the Boogaloo Bois, the Wolverine Watchmen, Trump’s secret police, whatever.  The general trend is for the general public to say enough violence.  The general trend is that the violence stops.  The military stops taking part in action against the American people.  The secret police disappear from the headlines.  Everybody rejects the Boogaloo Bois.  The actions of the Proud Boys and Antifa are both rejected.  I don’t expect the various Midwest militias to be plotting to kidnap elected officials in the near future.

The common theme is ‘bad violent extremists, bad’.  2020 may long be remembered as a bad year, but the people are winning.  It is looking to end.

Most Americans are sickened by violence of all kinds. Peaceful protests are to remain peaceful. Anyone who tries to use a peaceful protest as cover for violent, destructive, or larcenous acts can expect no understanding from peaceful protesters with limited objectives.  No, I have no desire to defend someone who torches a car or or pizza parlor. No, I have no desire to understand why someone comes out of a store with a large selection of merchandise that one usually bags to protect them. No, I have no desire to understand why someone beats another person up. 

Quote:You (Classic X'er) seem to be an exception with your obsession with violence.  Lot of talk.  No action.  You are still caught up in the Industrial Age pattern, when you needed violence to convince those with the old values to change.  Not clear that this is true anymore.  Note how the violence slows.

People are more convinced of the righteousness of their side.  At least my side is more diverse in origins if similar in some key values (such as respect for curiosity and educational attainment and a respect for lawful authority. 

Quote:Agreed, the red violent extremists go by different names in different parts of the country.  They obsess on different issues.

They have resolute beliefs, but no deep thought. When I saw the slogan "Make America Great Again" I could only ask "What does Donald Trump mean by greatness". Maybe life was easier in some ways, largely because real estate was much cheaper in real terms; there were far more opportunities to start businesses when Wal*Mart, McDonald's, and Amazon were not around. But that is over. Real estate was far cheaper because a stevedore might live close to the docks and thus find it easier to have a waterfront view from his flat. We have about four times as many people today as we did in 1910, and far fewer people working at the docks. Places with waterfront views are typically 'luxury' housing now.

Would I want to go back to 1910? That was a great time to be middle-class even without all the electronic gadgetry. But not an industrial worker, and certainly not an ethnic minority. "Ethnic" but white?  Words like "P---ck", "D---", and "K---" were commonplace in circulation, and they were said in about as much malice as "ni--er" is used even today. Life was not easy for GI kids from blue-collar families in those days, and the only thing good about growing up as a GI kid in those days was that one was developing some very good habits. 

Quote:I did visit the web site of the Twin City’s Star Tribune.  They did mention it would have been George Floyd’s birthday, but the protests and violence was not part of the coverage.  COVID was a big deal getting many articles.  The old high school is getting converted into apartments.  Things seem with the exception of COVID to have returned to normal.

 

A 4T eventually brings about a "new normal" in much of life. Old bad habits that lack value for survival die out. Maybe some traditions that survived the last Crisis remain, get renewal, or return with new meaning; dubious practices die. Most of the dubious practices that perish come from the 3T. The "new normal" of a 1T, after issues of survival are revolved, are habits that arise in a Crisis -- like taking the long view, revitalizing community, and supporting conformity in economic result. I expect the repudiation of trickle-down economics and shock jocks.   

Quote:It is only when the red extremists go wild that there is a public rejection of their bad behavior.  Whether it is the Proud Boys shooting into crowds, bad cops being bad cops, militias kidnapping governors, Trump tear gassing peaceful protestors, I don’t see where the Democrats are the problem.  Antifa, maybe, but Antifa in its pure form are defenders against fascists.  Theirs is not what the Democrats are promoting, not part of their platform.

Extremist of both the Left and the Right often gravitate to ethical offense, including violence, to make their point. Trump is an extremist, and instead of condemning right-wing violence he asks us to understand the anger toward people taking down monuments to Confederate heroes or not letting bars open. Trump has a tendency for facile statements such as "there are good people on both sides". No, there are not good people on both sides on such things as arson, mugging, child abuse, or drug trafficking. Evil is real, and it can be tempting, but evil is always a poor choice. 

Quote: (to Classic X'er) --
So your perception is what your politics leads you to see.  It has little to do with reality, not that paying attention to reality is a red strength.

Every word and every deed has a consequence. I doubt that he fully understands this.

[CH86]

(10-15-2020, 05:18 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-14-2020, 10:34 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't think you completely grasp what you represent to the rest of America these days. You represent the end of America and you seem happy about it for some strange reason. I suppose liberty doesn't mean as much to a handicapped individual who can't do much other than read or post views on a forum that he has been using for his own reasons for many years or watch the coastal news channels affiliated with the Democratic party and watch his show hosts who are paid to cater to his worldview, his beliefs and values. Are the Democrats worth the sacrifices/headaches that will needed to remain with them or would America be better off without them? Like you, I do believe that this election will determine the direct of this country and I accept that this country may not remain fully intact. Right now, you're leaning and relying on old laurels that the Democratic party has been taking advantage of and weakening for many years.

Hubris and condescension in the same post. You're really reaching.  Just for a quick point of reference, your side is in the minority just about everywhere. The majority doesn't get to define America, even less so the minority.

While Classic-Xer is very much wrong in characterizing his segment of the GOP as the majority. You guys are also incorrect; most of us millennials/late-wave Xers/Gen-Z'ers wanted a policy based moderate ticket.

Trump is actually in a much weakened position since 2018; It just that the Dems insist on throwing away their advantage by attempting to shove radical left Boomerism down our throats. If removing Trump in the election means we're just going to get a liberal boomer or Boomer acolyte 60's radical administration. Then most of Us under 50 are just going to swallow and accept four more years of president Trump. Most of us don't like the guy, but we're still going to vote for him anyway to punish Boomer control-freaks.

In short Classic-Xer vs Eric/Pbrower/Bob/Horn: We don't really like either of you guys but if the choice is going to be Trump Vs Kamala, we'll take our chances with four more years of Trump and Run a REAL candidate in 2024. And Boomers, if you cheat again you will get the same result at the very least or even get party dissolution and a replacement party as the DNC would have proven itself too corrupt to be worth existing. Delusional Boomers: you can't win with just White Liberal Boomers, Black Boomers and Jewish Boomers, and various degenerates. We all saw your insane 25th amendment talk intended to await Biden if he somehow wins (Pelosi said outright she wasn't talking about Trump when mentioning the 25th). What kind of demented power-hungry nuts would 25th your own nominee if said nominee actually ended up winning, come on guys.

Classic-Xer you guys too are alienating most moderates with that your Trumpers big government dictatorial crushing talk. Listen both GOP Fanatics and Boomer Leftist Fanatics, What will happens that the Dems will vote before election day, On election day itself the Repubs will vote predominately. However the groundswell of Moderates that both sides are anticipating would NOT occur. Instead overall turnout will be fairly low. Trump will MOST LIKELY win by about the same margins as 2016. However his victory will NOT carry over to the house and senate.

Donald Trump WILL Run again in 2024 (after repealing the two terms limit/he will achieve this via Berniecrats unexpectedly siding with the GOP on this one issue) but will be crushed in that election in 2024.