Fascism is on the ballot

[beechnut79]

In IL a fair tax amendment is on the ballot, as it is one of the only states where everyone pays the same rate. If it passes it would resemble the graduated tax scale the federal government and most states use, compelling the Uber-wealthy to pay a greater share.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-20-2020, 08:05 AM)David Horn Wrote: The GOP has been in bed with big business since the day it was formed. Big business doesn't need an advocate.  Everyone else does -- especially lower paid employees everywhere.  I know you feel that the GOP represents you, but putting yourself in the same class with the known problem will be a net negative in the future -- one you might not escape.

Once upon a time the Robber Barons were allied with the abolitionists. For the Industrial Revolution to progress apace, the Robber Barons did need an advocate. Even today the idea that what is good for General Motors is good for America has merit. You need a little bit of balance for corporations to counter the working man. Still, the balance of wealth suggests this balance has been way overdone.

That the elites and the racist have given the conservatives the voting advantage has just about ruined America. Hopefully that time is about past.

[pbrower2a]

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 06:16 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Enough Americans have figured out what President Trump really is and despise him enough that they will vote for Joe Biden. "Establishment" wins against someone that the Establishment can successfully depict as a dangerous demagogue. Most polling indicates that he stands to lose in the range of 7% to 17% by margin. Such ranges between a defeat on the scale of the loser in the 1988 and 2008  for a lesser defeat and the defeat of Hoover by FDR in 1932. The larger numbers are more recent and suggest the collapse of a failing campaign.

All previous 4T's have redefined what America is, and this one will be no exception. You are welcome to believe what you want, but you would be wrong.

I doubt it, Biden isn't even close to being in the same league a FDR. FDR was handicapped but his mind was sharp. I don't think this is a good time for the media to pull off an epic hood wink myself.

Matching FDR is nearly impossible. Obviously the situation is incomparable. We don't have an economic meltdown as severe as that of the three years beginning with the Great Stock Market Crash of 1929, although I would not be surprised it President Trump tanked the economy as revenge. We have over. We do have nearly 225 thousand deaths from COVID-19. We just passed Spokane, Washington (99th-largest city)... next on the list are the state capitals of Idaho (98) and Virginia (97).   Just imagine that a city like Bose or Richmond being wiped off the map; that is how severe the loss is. We have nearly four times as casualties in a costly stalemate as America lost in either the wars in Korea and Vietnam. Well, South Korea is one of the most prosperous countries in the world instead of an economic basket case on par (then) many African countries; even though the Republic of Vietnam eventually fell to the Commies, America got some desirable citizens out of that. 

What existential benefit can anyone see in Donald Trump's bungled response to COVID-19? Try convincing me that his conduct does not constitute negligent homicide on a huge scale.  That's before I even discuss his horrid response to racist assaults on public order     

Quote:Like I said, you stand to lose the bulk of the country over it.

your word against Nate Silver, a statistical expert. I know that I am about as biased (if far more civilized than you)

Quote:President Trump is running out of time. Joe Biden leads by double digits in national polls, and state-level polling is only slightly closer. In fact, Biden’s lead is so large that traditionally red states like Georgia, Iowa, Ohio and Texas might now go blue. We’ve entered the last two-week stretch before Election Day, and Trump needs the race to tighten — we’re way past the point where a normal polling error could let Trump close the gap. Still, Trump has a meaningful chance per our forecast — a little worse than the chances of rolling a 1 on a six-sided die and a little better than the chances that it’s raining in downtown Los Angeles. And remember, it does rain there. (Downtown L.A. has about 36 rainy days per year, or about a 1-in-10 shot of a rainy day.)

• The last two weeks of the campaign can be an incredibly stressful time, though, so here are eight tips from editor-in-chief Nate Silver to stay sane, including advice like paying attention to polling averages (not individual polls) and not putting too much stock in how either campaign “feels” (they usually do not have a better read on the race than the polls.)
  • Should you trust the polls this year? Yes. But we understand that many people have lingering questions after 2016, even though Trump was just a normal polling error behind Hillary Clinton. So here’s what 15 pollsters told us they’ve changed since 2016 (a lot of them weight by education now) and what still worries them about 2020.
    

Trump offers the caveats that strange events can happen that change the political narrative, that all statewide polls have margins of error, and that voters can be incredibly fickle. Long-shots occasionally win horse races and do so frequently. Long-shots, like Trump in 2016, can win when much goes right for them. Silver still gives Trump 12 chances in 100 in which to win 270 or more electoral votes and one in which to get a tie in electoral votes that would be decided in the House based upon statewide votes by the states. (California has as many electoral votes as Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Idaho, Nebraska, Utah, Mississippi, West Virginia, Arkansas, and Kansas combined, but those states will count for twelve votes to California's one. Indiana, South Carolina, and Oklahoma would be three to New York's one. A 269-269 tie goes effectively to Trump.  

There is room for an unpredictable surprise such as an accusation of gross wrong-doing by a Presidential candidate long ago or a 9-11 event of the type that causes Americans to unite behind the President... Silver makes allowance for that.  But note well: Biden has as much chance of winning 419 electoral votes (all Clinton wins, ME-02, NE-02, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arizona, Florida, North Carolina, Georgia, Iowa, Ohio, Texas, Alaska, and Montana) as he has of winning 270 or more electoral votes. The median result is somewhere near Obama's 2008 win or Clinton's 1992 win.  I checked the nature of the potential wins for Trump, and none of them implied Trump winning any one of Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Iowa, North Carolina, Ohio, or Texas.           

Quote: I don't care if you starve to death. I don't care if the people in New York aren't free to leave their homes for years. I don't care if Wall Street goes broke and disappears over night. I don't care if Washington, DC ends up being looted and burned to the ground. 

You are far closer to Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, or Haile Mengistu, four killers who used Commie ideology as their excuse for mass death, than I am in soullessness. I have Asperger's, so I must act to seem as if I am a decent personality through some inherent quality.   What is it -- Josef Stalin said infamously that one death is a tragedy and a million is a statistic? 

Get help. I don't know what your religious heritage is, but I figure that you are not Jewish, Muslim, or a member of some non-Christian heritage. If you are an atheist or agnostic, then you fail at the great responsibility of atheists and agnostics: to develop a moral compass that does not rely upon some Deity, Prophet, or philosophical tradition. If you reject God but also morality, then you need to find God... and considering what little I know about Judaism (it accepts converts with difficulty, but only from among the righteous and after extensive study). 

You have no chance of developing a workable morality of the type that Bertrand Russell offers. Islam is probably too exotic for you, so may I suggest this fellow for you to follow:

       

Consider what you have just said; you need a Savior... and in view of His horrible death, one that He fully expected after a lynching that resembles a show trial as one would expect under the sort of judicial process that one might expect under a totalitarian regime or under puppet rulers subservient to a colonial overlord as brutal as the Roman Empire... just read His Sermon on the Mount, and recognize that He believed every word that He said in a political speech on par with Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, Churchill's "Finest Hour" speech, and Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech.   

Because you cannot formulate a moral code of your own, you need to accept something pre-packaged.  I don't ordinarily push religion, but you need to do something that one of the Presidential nominees does. Joe Biden is a devout Christian.  

Quote:America will unite, establish an interim government, organize it's armies and establish the rule of law/ law and order within its territories. We can repeat history again and boot the Liberal's like our ancestor's booted the Brits and leave the fascists and socialists fighting over the cities alone for years as they're slaughtering themselves. I feel bad for the sheeple Democrats but that's what happens to sheeple.

Matching FDR is nearly impossible. Obviously the situation is incomparable. We don't have an economic meltdown as severe as that of the three years beginning with the Great Stock Market Crash of 1929, although I would not be surprised it President Trump tanked the economy as revenge. We have over. We do have nearly 225 thousand deaths from COVID-19. We just passed Spokane, Washington (99th-largest city)... next on the list are the state capitals of Idaho (98) and Virginia (97).   Just imagine that a city like Bose or Richmond being wiped off the map; that is how severe the loss is. We have nearly four times as casualties in a costly stalemate as America lost in either the wars in Korea and Vietnam. Well, South Korea is one of the most prosperous countries in the world instead of an economic basket case on par (then) many African countries; even though the Republic of Vietnam eventually fell to the Commies, America got some desirable citizens out of that. 

What existential benefit can anyone see in Donald Trump's bungled response to COVID-19? Try convincing me that his conduct does not constitute negligent homicide.  Donald Trump has done more than any President to divide America into hostile camps. No, there are not 'good people on both sides' between violent racists and the rest of us, the people who prefer that there not be racial strife.  I see a smashing Democratic victory as a way of compelling people who voted for Trump for the wrong reasons in 2016 a fresh slate. I expect Trump supporters to hope for the best and be happy when things that Trump threatens do not materialize.

I have no question that President Biden will have his work cut out for him. This is a Crisis Era, and much about America now is nasty.  "Rona" is slaughtering Americans. Trump has soiled American political discourse. Economic inequality in America is typical of that in a fascist regime. Trump has done great harm to the Armed Forces, the intelligence services, federal law enforcement, education, and science. 

Is he up to the challenge? His age leaves some doubts. This said, Donald Trump is both immature and senile, which is a dangerous combination. Biden was a competent understudy for an above-average President... without the personal demons that Nixon had. I see Biden as a one-term President due to his age, but I also see him likely to have good people behind him.

[pbrower2a]

(10-20-2020, 12:36 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-19-2020, 11:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-19-2020, 10:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 10:49 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 02:39 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You assume??? Is there a Liberal around here who really knows anything at this point?? Let's see, we have Facebook and Twitter censoring/banning  conservatives and banning press releases  related to Biden and you're telling me  that  we're associated with the alternate truth squad. I watch Fox news and I check out their competition to see if they've changed or still the same. So, what's your opinion worth to me, has it's value changed over fifteen years.

H-m-m-m.  My point made and confirmed. Thanks.

Your welcome. Now, you run a long with Facebook, Twitter, Google the national channels, a group of billionaires with interests in the Green New Deal, a group of billionaires with interests in trade with China, a group of corrupt politicians who have been selling out America for years, a bunch of Marxist institutions and a Hamlet/Macbeth government that's in over its head in debt.

Ha, I think we'll leave all the debt to you guys. You side created it, after all.

Hamlet/MacBeth is what we've got. Your side is MacBeth, our side is Hamlet. Now that is the most obvious statement I can think of.

It's like the W.B. Yates poem Kenneth Clark and Brian Rush used to quote, although I don't think Brian quoted this part:

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity" Today is becoming more and more like "between the wars" in the last saecular go-round.

“And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,  slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?”

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015...no-slouch/

Quote:I'd say 80 years of Progressive politics/policies and agreements with foreign powers and foreign institutions created most of it myself. I always thought the American capitol should be located further inland myself. 

Forty years of an ideology that holds that the enrichment, indulgence, and power of economic elites have undone much of the social improvement that the progressive reforms of the last nearly ninety years have given us. 

Nostalgic for the 1920's are you? It is unfortunate for you that the people who remember the 1920's (born 1915 or earlier) are no longer around to disabuse you of such a folly. The only thing better about those times was that real estate was then dirt cheap in contrast to what it was then. Figure that before the 1930's a "solid eighth-grade education" was adequate for the needs of the time. High-school completion went from a rarity to a commonplace reality in the 1930's (jobs largely disappeared for kids in the 1930's, and many found themselves getting high-school educations that would well prepare them as soldiers and for the prosperity of the post-WWII world); wages rose and working hours fell due to wage-and-hour laws; industrial workers got to form labor unions that achieved collective bargaining for workers;  the GI Bill made college education available to an unprecedented number of adults (and even if I did not get direct benefits I got side benefits from the college graduates creating a better world... and much more. 

Do you miss Jim Crow practice? I hope not!  

Quote:We aren't the GOP/ the Macbeth's. We're the independent Republican base that the GOP needs to win national elections that the GOP has already lost in a way.

Do you realize what Macbeth was? He assassinated King Duncan in a blatant usurpation of power. Shakespeare's Macbeth plotted and executed a coup and caused a large number of innocent people to die during his reign. One can learn much from Shakespeare, including the critical lesson that thug government that begins with good intentions can cause great misery and bring about its own downfall. See also Richard III. 

Macbeth-like leaders in the last century include Lenin, Franco, Quisling, Gottwald, Rakosi, Castro, Pinochet, Mengistu, "VD Amurderin'", Samuel Doeand "Satan Hussein" (OK, the last two are Idi Amin and Saddam Hussein)... be glad that we have nobody of the type. Check Wikipedia for the biographies on Wikipedia if you don't recognize them. .   

Quote:I don't know what makes them think they can have it both ways but they'll learn when they lose their jobs. America will also get a much clearer picture of what the Democrats and the elites are about as well.

Joe Biden is as Establishment as one gets.  Trump is a reckless demagogue who has done nothing good except for economic elites. Any illusion that he can do any good for the common man is a fraud. He offers scapegoats instead of solutions. 

Quote:Like I said, a strong group of Republican Senators and a strong group of Republican Congressmen is all we need in Washington vs the Fascist Marxist/DNC/GOP coalition representing the Democratic party these days.

I'll take the more classic sort of conservative, the sort who recognizes that the common man needs something to preserve. Rule of law, checks and balances, virtue-based ethics,  opportunity, fair wages, law and order, child protection,  a good environment, and recognition of the validity of diversity; such is all conservative. The problem is that Donald Trump is no more a conservative than is David Duke.  

Quote:You're right about Fascism being on the ballot, you're just wrong about the side that truly represents it today.

You don't know what fascism is. 

[David Horn]

(10-20-2020, 05:07 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-20-2020, 08:05 AM)David Horn Wrote: The GOP has been in bed with big business since the day it was formed. Big business doesn't need an advocate.  Everyone else does -- especially lower paid employees everywhere.  I know you feel that the GOP represents you, but putting yourself in the same class with the known problem will be a net negative in the future -- one you might not escape.

Once upon a time the Robber Barons were allied with the abolitionists.  For the Industrial Revolution to progress apace, the Robber Barons did need an advocate.  Even today the idea that what is good for General Motors is good for America has merit.  You need a little bit of balance for corporations to counter the working man.  Still, the balance of wealth suggests this balance has been way overdone.

That the elites and the racist have given the conservatives the voting advantage has just about ruined America.  Hopefully that time is about past.

It's hard to argue for government backing of big business when rapacious behavior is endemic.  Power needs to balance power.  There is no "people power" to balance; there's no shortage of corporate power.

At the moment, government is behind the business community 100%.  That has to change -- dramatically.  Ask Thomas Picketty.

[Bob Butler 54]

This entry seems to summarize the difference between Earth 1 and Earth 2.  I doubt I will effect any of your delusions, but the difference is real and deeply felt.

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't think this is a good time for the media to pull off an epic hood wink myself.

The blue media does not have a reputation for lying.  That is more Trump and Fox's game.

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Like I said, you stand to lose the bulk of the country over it.

The reds have generally accepted the results of elections.  This time around, with so many of them seeing the threat to America, so many of them going over to the other side, they have less reason to grumble than most times.

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't care if you starve to death.

Starving to death isn't happening.  Death from red folk ignoring COVID is.  As long as the bug isn't beat down, the economy will be in shambles, and that includes the red folk's economy.

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't care if the people in New York aren't free to leave their homes for years.

As long as the current red reality puts the comfort of not wearing a mask, the awkwardness of social distancing, ahead of people's lives, the possibility is there.  The values shift of a crisis is from selfishness to being willing to sacrifice for the good of the culture.  The reds have failed at this miserably, have clung to the unravelling mentality.

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't care if Wall Street goes broke and disappears over night.

Hasn't happened yet.  The reds in charge have chosen to bail out Wall Street rather than Main Street.  They have continued their bad policy on the bug rather long though.  Something has got to give.

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't care if Washington, DC ends up being looted and burned to the ground.

Any evidence of any city heading that way?  There has been a problem with violent red extremists going into blue turf and trying to make trouble, but so far they haven't gotten very far.  The military is declining to be used against the American people.  The secret police have gone home.  The Proud Boys lost one person and their edge.  The Wolverine Watchmen recruited an informer.  The problem with America is red domestic terrorism, and they are falling rather flat.

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't care if a bunch of blue cities turn into war zones.

Not happening.

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: America will unite, establish an interim government, organize it's armies and establish the rule of law/ law and order within its territories.

Agreed, sort of...  Just I have a different idea of what America is.  Your America, the America of racism, authoritarianism and elitism will suffer a values crash similar to to the old values in past crises.

Also, the military have declined to oppose the American people.  There will be conflict enough, but not there.

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We can repeat history again and boot the Liberal's like our ancestor's booted the Brits and leave the fascists and socialists fighting over the cities alone for years as they're slaughtering themselves.

The colonials were the progressives.  The king wanted to stick with authoriatism, tribalism and colonial imperialism.  We don't see history at all the same.

Neither faction resembles the old fascists.  That is so much propaganda.

Nobody is slaughtering anybody, unless you count the reds perpetuating the bug.  That is at 221,000 and counting.  That is way out of scale with anything else.  In a crisis, the greatest problems facing the culture are solved.  That would be COVID and systematic violent racism.

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I feel bad for the sheeple Democrats but that's what happens to sheeple.

I feel sorry for the Republicans, but that's what happens in a crisis to those who cling to the old values.  Racism and elitism gave the conservative movement a long unraveling.  The lessons learned from it will be severe.  How severe?  Prior crises gave us taxation without representation is tyranny, the abolition of slavery, government regulation of the economy and containment of aggressive autocracy.  The mess that the elites and racists created might be viewed as similar in magnitude and scope by the time the victors finish writing the history books.  The inequality that they embraced in economy and justice will be easy to write.

That isn't to say there aren't values worth standing up for in the conservative movement.  Eric was astute in listing the conservative values which have become progressive in this election.  Those are the values that would give the party a chance to recover.  Not clear that they will.  The remnants of the GOP could become Trump remnants.  That would leave the two Democratic factions in opposition.  Not clear that is a win.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-20-2020, 11:52 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Matching FDR is nearly impossible. Obviously the situation is incomparable. We don't have an economic meltdown as severe as that of the three years beginning with the Great Stock Market Crash of 1929, although I would not be surprised it President Trump tanked the economy as revenge. We have over. We do have nearly 225 thousand deaths from COVID-19. We just passed Spokane, Washington (99th-largest city)... next on the list are the state capitals of Idaho (98) and Virginia (97).   Just imagine that a city like Bose or Richmond being wiped off the map; that is how severe the loss is. We have nearly four times as casualties in a costly stalemate as America lost in either the wars in Korea and Vietnam. Well, South Korea is one of the most prosperous countries in the world instead of an economic basket case on par (then) many African countries; even though the Republic of Vietnam eventually fell to the Commies, America got some desirable citizens out of that. 

What existential benefit can anyone see in Donald Trump's bungled response to COVID-19? Try convincing me that his conduct does not constitute negligent homicide.  Donald Trump has done more than any President to divide America into hostile camps. No, there are not 'good people on both sides' between violent racists and the rest of us, the people who prefer that there not be racial strife.  I see a smashing Democratic victory as a way of compelling people who voted for Trump for the wrong reasons in 2016 a fresh slate. I expect Trump supporters to hope for the best and be happy when things that Trump threatens do not materialize.

I have no question that President Biden will have his work cut out for him. This is a Crisis Era, and much about America now is nasty.  "Rona" is slaughtering Americans. Trump has soiled American political discourse. Economic inequality in America is typical of that in a fascist regime. Trump has done great harm to the Armed Forces, the intelligence services, federal law enforcement, education, and science. 

Is he up to the challenge? His age leaves some doubts. This said, Donald Trump is both immature and senile, which is a dangerous combination. Biden was a competent understudy for an above-average President... without the personal demons that Nixon had. I see Biden as a one-term President due to his age, but I also see him likely to have good people behind him.

I have no doubt that Biden will have his work cut out for him and it's very obvious to me that he's not up for the task and it's also obvious that he's not in the same league as FDR either. It's to bad that you didn't invest more time in building a relationship with Jesus than you invested with the Democratic party, you wouldn't be in need of a Liberal puppet trying to play the role of Jesus on Earth these days.

[pbrower2a]

(10-24-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Is Biden comparable to FDR as a leader or not?

Probably not. It would be difficult to match FDR; besides, the pressing needs of the 1930's (staving off an economic meltdown that could have undone our commercial and industrial society) and the early 'forties (defeating the two most dangerous and demonic enemies that America has ever known -- at once). Undoing the damage that Donald Trump has done is a big enough job. Biden will need to appeal to the best in American character and make us return to old virtues that made such greatness that America has known possible.    

Quote:... it's very obvious to me  that  he's not up for the task and that he's not  in the same league as FDR. So, what the (expletive deleted)  have the Democrats been doing for the last nine months?

Exactly what the Party on the Outside must do to start anew when compromise and deal-making is impossible with a my-way-or-the-highway style of leadership: documenting the gross inadequacies of that leadership, is impossible,  enunciating a contrary vision, and waging a solid campaign. With an incumbent able to cut deals, like Reagan or Obama, then waiting for the next electoral opportunity to force change is possible is all that is available. When the President acts like a despot, as is unique to Trump among America's Presidents, a waiting game may be completely inadequate because that despot will consolidate greater power and entrench the position of himself or his successors. 

It's freedom or fascism, Classic X'er.  

Quote:Have they been watching CNN 24/7 and talking with other Democrats  on the internet and enjoying their free time off as the rest  of us have been working through the COVID19 crisis or what? Could we afford to eliminate every do nothing Democrat, do nothing politician, do nothing people  and the bulk of the criminals and come out way  ahead as a nation? I think we could and I think we will as a nation.

I can construe some of your language as eliminationist toward the handicapped and the elderly. My suggestion toward you remains the same. I suggest that you discuss your values with Christian clergy who have a strong foundation in philosophical as well as moral questions. 

Do not make the same question that mocks God as did Cain: "Am I my brother's keeper?"

I am not saying that that story is literal truth (indeed I consider everything in Genesis up to the Covenant between God and Abraham suspect), but that is a retort that many wrongdoers have said. Yes, those who herded Jews into gas chambers or shooting pits during WWII literally violated their brotherhood in shared Humanity with the Jews, and I can see no interpretation of Christianity that says that Holocaust perpetrators have any pleasant and satisfying role in the World to Come. 

Speaking of criminals -- what do you expect to do about our current President? I would be satisfied with the Hague Tribunals because:

1. Process is so far as I have heard beyond complaint.
2. Trump could come under trial in many US states (perhaps including Michigan and Virginia as well as New York) as well as the federal government) so there would be disputes over what charges he would face. Such could delay trials. 
3. His response to COVID-19 has resulted at the least at first in a disproportionate  suffering of death and disability among African-Americans, and that would be better resolved somewhere other than the USA; this could be his worst offense
4. Trying him anywhere in the USA would create huge problems of logistics; if culpable of negligent homicide on a huge scale (and that may be an understatement) he could easily be 'sprung' because he has fanatical supporters here
5. Trump has enablers who could also be put on trial.
6. Sentences by the Hague Tribunal are severe, and conviction is highly likely. Trump has had some influence upon the legal system by sponsoring the appointment of Federal judges and three Justices of the US Supreme Court  already, and I can imagine his three nominees doing him a great favor in gratitude. I want this man out of the American appellate process because I do not want his crimes to challenge it.  

OK... which Hague tribunal location? Milosevic is my comparison for offenses. He supposedly denounced crimes done on his behalf but he could not deny culpability. Milosevic was tried in the Hague, where he was helpless. There was no Serbian military presence in the Netherlands (which is a NATO member and has US troops). Arusha, Tanzania is the site of the Hague trials of the perpetrators of the Rwanda genocide, and Tanzania has no American military presence.

[Eric the Green]

(10-24-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I have no doubt that Biden will have his work cut out for him and it's very obvious to me that  he's not up for the task and it's also obvious that he's not in the same league as FDR either. It's to bad that you didn't invest more time in building a relationship with Jesus than you invested with the Democratic party, you wouldn't be in need of a Liberal puppet trying to play the role of Jesus on Earth these days.

I don't know what YOU mean by "building a relationship with Jesus," but many have testified for the last 2 millennia about having been visited by him. And this lady did "build a relationship" with him, and she's not the only one. But if you think building a relationship with Jesus implies just reading and believing in the Bible as interpreted by church doctrine, and that this somehow conflicts with the Democratic Party and Liberal puppets, well, those who have actually been with him (and I know a few) might beg to differ.

https://www.lovewithoutend.com/Apparitio...Christ.htm
https://www.lovewithoutend.com/Love_With...d_Book.htm

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-24-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I have no doubt that Biden will have his work cut out for him and it's very obvious to me that  he's not up for the task and it's also obvious that he's not in the same league as FDR either.

The guy in charge during the crisis generally does get sainted after dying as the crisis ends.  He is generally not considered impressive as the crisis is just getting underway.  I do see a COVID vaccine being developed, and anti racial violence legislation being passed.  I have even seen some support for trying to counter global warming lately.  If these happen as anticipated, that will be enough to celebrate whomever was in charge as the change in values is manifested.  I'm not sure it will be deserved.  The culture is changing anyway.  Larger forces are in play than any one man.  There will be a need to personify the change, however.  It's all in the Great Man theory of history.

But that doesn't mean opposing partisans weren't in opposition early.  The old values have to be seen failing miserably before that happens.  I read one account of a descendent of General Nathan Forrest being insulted by his being compared with Lincoln as being the genius embodiment of their respective sides of the Civil War.  She didn't like talking about 'That Man'.  Some people will cling to the old values well past their time.

[pbrower2a]

(10-24-2020, 04:54 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-24-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I have no doubt that Biden will have his work cut out for him and it's very obvious to me that  he's not up for the task and it's also obvious that he's not in the same league as FDR either.

The guy in charge during the crisis generally does get sainted after dying as the crisis ends.

Well, Obama will get credit for calming things and reversing (to the extent possible) some dangerous tendencies that Trump brought back even harder. Trump, of course, seems likely to become the scapegoat for what went on while he was President. He may not have had malign intent, but incompetence can be just as harmful. 

Quote:He is generally not considered impressive as the crisis is just getting underway.  I do see a COVID vaccine being developed, and anti racial violence legislation being passed.

Joe Biden seems the sort to give the credit for a COVID-19 vaccine to medicine, science, and commerce, where the credit will be due. Figuring that even if Trump got re-elected he would find himself obliged to sign legislation against racist violence (perhaps even banning the Confederate flag and KKK symbols) that house and Senate majorities pass or have his veto defeated. Obviously it is premature by at least ten days to predict what a second term of Donald Trump will be like. Trump could be a brutal tyrant or woefully marginalized... if he wins. I'm sure that you see the contradiction. History works in strange ways.

Quote: I have even seen some support for trying to counter global warming lately.  If these happen as anticipated, that will be enough to celebrate whomever was in charge as the change in values is manifested.  I'm not sure it will be deserved.  The culture is changing anyway.  Larger forces are in play than any one man.  There will be a need to personify the change, however.  It's all in the Great Man theory of history.

COVID-19 may break the concentration of opportunity in a few favored locations. Just imagine a software engineer who can live in Traverse City, Michigan in the summer and the Texas Hill Country in the winter -- or maybe Prescott, Arizona (probably the best year-round climate in America outside of coastal California or Hawaii) year round. 3D printing could make possible small-scale manufacturing anywhere. Paying $4K a month for rent to live where one can make $5K a month is a raw deal.  

Quote:But that doesn't mean opposing partisans weren't in opposition early.  The old values have to be seen failing miserably before that happens.  I read one account of a descendent of General Nathan Forrest being insulted by his being compared with Lincoln as being the genius embodiment of their respective sides of the Civil War.  She didn't like talking about 'That Man'.  Some people will cling to the old values well past their time.

Some old animosities last long after the struggle is over. Irrelevance has a way of striking back.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-24-2020, 03:40 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Exactly what the Party on the Outside must do to start anew when compromise and deal-making is impossible with a my-way-or-the-highway style of leadership: documenting the gross inadequacies of that leadership, is impossible,  enunciating a contrary vision, and waging a solid campaign. With an incumbent able to cut deals, like Reagan or Obama, then waiting for the next electoral opportunity to force change is possible is all that is available. When the President acts like a despot, as is unique to Trump among America's Presidents, a waiting game may be completely inadequate because that despot will consolidate greater power and entrench the position of himself or his successors. 

It's freedom or fascism, Classic X'er.  

Like I said, a my way or the high way style of leadership wouldn't have delegated authority to the states. I figure I'll be on the side fighting for freedom as you're on the side submitting to fascism. As far as Biden, it's obvious to me that Biden's not up to the task and I think it's obvious that the Democrats as a whole are pretty pathetic at this point as well. All I can say is you're on the wrong side of history and the wrong side of America as well. If Biden is elected President, Biden will be the last President of the United States as we know it today. You issue is that we all have gotten to know the Democratic side to well to simply go along with like the Republicans of old. In short, we don't have to and we can break with traditions as easy as the Democrats.

[Eric the Green]

(10-24-2020, 05:43 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-24-2020, 03:40 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Exactly what the Party on the Outside must do to start anew when compromise and deal-making is impossible with a my-way-or-the-highway style of leadership: documenting the gross inadequacies of that leadership, is impossible,  enunciating a contrary vision, and waging a solid campaign. With an incumbent able to cut deals, like Reagan or Obama, then waiting for the next electoral opportunity to force change is possible is all that is available. When the President acts like a despot, as is unique to Trump among America's Presidents, a waiting game may be completely inadequate because that despot will consolidate greater power and entrench the position of himself or his successors. 

It's freedom or fascism, Classic X'er.  

Like I said, a my way or the high way style of leadership wouldn't have delegated authority to the states. I figure I'll be on the side fighting for freedom as you're on the side submitting to fascism. As far as Biden, it's obvious to me that Biden's not up to the task and I think it's obvious that the Democrats as a whole  are pretty pathetic at this point as well. All I can say is you're on the wrong side of history and the wrong side of America as well. If Biden is elected President, Biden will be the last President of the United States as we know it today. Your issue is that we all have gotten to know the Democratic side too well to simply go along with like the Republicans of old. In short, we don't have to and we can break with traditions as easy as the Democrats.

Delegating authority to the states was exactly the wrong thing, and if Trump loses the election it will be because of this. It is actually MORE authoritarian because it's neo-liberalism, laissez faire, which lets things go wrong and authorities to fester. Ha ha, freedom indeed! Freedom to die; freedom for people to shoot people, freedom for greed to run rampant and destroy Nature and our lives. It is amazing you have things so reversed. It is so obvious that if Trump is "re-elected" (selected, more likely, as in 2000), he will be the last President of the United States as we know it today. But we won't go along as we have done so often, so much in the past, enabling and coddling you greed and racism enablers. You claim constantly that you're opposed to government, but you and your side is a booster of the kind of authoritarian government YOU LIKE, such as "law and order" and allowing police murders and drug wars and real wars and shouting patriotic symbols for your guys as they run rampant over all our genuine human rights.

Bill Maher sure made that plain!

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-24-2020, 06:48 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Delegating authority to the states was exactly the wrong thing, and if Trump loses the election it will be because of this.

This was explored recently with posts that suggest the leaders in time of crisis need to be Caesars, need to be strong and authoritarian to solve the problem.  In Europe and elsewhere it is tempting to look back with fondness to the time of Fill-in-the-blank the Great.  In America, the pattern is to praise the strong leader who creates an effective government at the time of the crisis, but lets that government grow weaker and less focused after the crisis is solved.

The cry of 'freedom' is the cry of unraveling selfishness and weakness, of leaving problems unsolved.  It had it's time, but that time now gone.

[pbrower2a]

(10-24-2020, 04:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-24-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I have no doubt that Biden will have his work cut out for him and it's very obvious to me that  he's not up for the task and it's also obvious that he's not in the same league as FDR either. It's to bad that you didn't invest more time in building a relationship with Jesus than you invested with the Democratic party, you wouldn't be in need of a Liberal puppet trying to play the role of Jesus on Earth these days.

I don't know what YOU mean by "building a relationship with Jesus," but many have testified for the last 2 millennia about having been visited by him. And this lady did "build a relationship" with him, and she's not the only one. But if you think building a relationship with Jesus implies just reading and believing in the Bible as interpreted by church doctrine, and that this somehow conflicts with the Democratic Party and Liberal puppets, well, those who have actually been with him (and I know a few) might beg to differ.

https://www.lovewithoutend.com/Apparitio...Christ.htm
https://www.lovewithoutend.com/Love_With...d_Book.htm

I suggested that Classic X'er "find Jesus". He is not going to find the Buddha, for example. He is not going to develop a viable moral compass from atheism or agnosticism as did someone like Bertrand Russell. (Russell is arguably the most accessible of all philosophers, and I suggest that devout Christians read his Why I Am Not a Christian, which would compel some devout Christians to challenge some assumptions. Classic X'er has even more basic assumptions to challenge, assumptions that make him a miserable person more vulnerable than he thinks. He is, in view of his ideology, one crippling accident away from becoming 'expendable' to the Master Class of the USA.

Classic X'er seems to hold a social-Darwinist view of the world even when such is contrary to his economic interest. He would fare better if more people in his area could afford air conditioners, which are somewhat of a luxury in places where brutal heat is more sporadic (the Twin Cities) than where it is entrenched for at least three months of the year (Kansas City). With his social-Darwinist Weltanschauung comes no milk of kindness and no meaning in life other than an economic struggle on behalf of irresponsible people to whom the rest of us are either responsible or expendable. If he has children, then a social-Darwinist regime could easily turn those into cannon fodder in wars for profit, which is itself tragedy.

Roman Catholicism and mainline Protestant churches have had to deal with that cruel ideology and have rejected it. It would be best that he know why such is so.  If he must find Jesus to imagine a better world in the here and now , and not simply "pie in the sky when you die", then he would be a kinder and more agreeable person.  

This is not the first time that I made such a suggestion. I did much the same to someone who slandered me as a homosexual child molester. Sometimes I get desperate in my moral arguing, and I must turn to pragmatic appeals. He mocked my appeal... "You went to church? You hypocrite!"

No, he was the hypocrite for failing to recognize that I could be right, that acceptance of homosexuality (if not child molesting, which mainstream LGBT people excoriate especially if they have child custody just as I do) i8s necessary for law and order which I consider vital to a civil society. Gay-bashing is lawlessness, and it is not my duty (let alone ability) to convince a gay-hater that I be 'straight'.

My father had just lost his wife to parkinsonism after heavy involvement in her care, and I wanted him to reconnect with Humanity in something other than a custodial setting. I would have introduced him to bar-hopping if that would have found him meaning. It was not easy, and my effort eventually (and inevitably) failed, and I have paid a high price for that failure even if such is not my fault. Loyalty to parents under difficult circumstances is a virtue. 

No nation can afford a Master Class or Master Race.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-24-2020, 06:48 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Delegating authority to the states was exactly the wrong thing, and if Trump loses the election it will be because of this. It is actually MORE authoritarian because it's neo-liberalism, laissez faire, which lets things go wrong and authorities to fester. Ha ha, freedom indeed! Freedom to die; freedom for people to shoot people, freedom for greed to run rampant and destroy Nature and our lives. It is amazing you have things so reversed. It is so obvious that if Trump is "re-elected" (selected, more likely, as in 2000), he will be the last President of the United States as we know it today. But we won't go along as we have done so often, so much in the past, enabling and coddling you greed and racism enablers. You claim constantly that you're opposed to government, but you and your side is a booster of the kind of authoritarian government YOU LIKE, such as "law and order" and allowing police murders and drug wars and real wars and shouting patriotic symbols for your guys as they run rampant over all our genuine human rights.

Bill Maher sure made that plain!

We're both saying the same thing at this point. Unlike Biden, Trump has enough American support to hand over the keys to Biden and then lead a movement to break with the Democratic states and establish a group of American states at this point. So, would you prefer to experience a repeat of the American Revolutionary War or a repeat of the American Civil War this time around or a deadly combination of the previous American conflicts this time around so to speak?

Yes, the my way or the highway style of leadership seems to be what the Democratic side wants/ prefers/favors these days. See PB, Eric proved that I'm right about the Democratic side these days. The Democratic side is more Bolshevik/Nazi/Sandinista/Old World than its American these days.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-24-2020, 03:03 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yes, the my way or the highway style of leadership seems to be what the Democratic side still prefers/favors these days. See PB, Eric proved that I was right about the Democratic side again. The Democratic side is more Bolshevik/Nazi/Sandinista/Old World than American these days.

Well, yes.  The approach during the crisis is towards a strong, competent government capable of using self sacrifice for the common good in solving the problems presented in the crisis.  Commonly in the US, this focus and strength weakens in the other turnings.  The red approach is the one of the unravelling turning, where selfishness is at an apex, when the individual's free choice is put above the needs of the many.

I just wouldn't boast about it, be proud of it.  Do you like seeing the bug kill people?  Are you racist?  Do you want to see the planet unlivable?

But, again, it is not difficult to tell the difference between Hitler or Stalin and Trump.  Different crisis, different problems are confronted, different lessons have to be learned.  You may be too incompetent to tell the difference and have to reach back to the last crisis for an argument, but there are many who are interested in solving this crisis rather than retreading the last one's arguments.  This time we are confronting COVUS, racial violent policing, structural racism, and to some degree global warming.  To some degree some reds are obsessed with racism, and might well be associated with Hitler's camp.  Other than that, different issues.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-24-2020, 01:24 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(10-24-2020, 04:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-24-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I have no doubt that Biden will have his work cut out for him and it's very obvious to me that  he's not up for the task and it's also obvious that he's not in the same league as FDR either. It's to bad that you didn't invest more time in building a relationship with Jesus than you invested with the Democratic party, you wouldn't be in need of a Liberal puppet trying to play the role of Jesus on Earth these days.

I don't know what YOU mean by "building a relationship with Jesus," but many have testified for the last 2 millennia about having been visited by him. And this lady did "build a relationship" with him, and she's not the only one. But if you think building a relationship with Jesus implies just reading and believing in the Bible as interpreted by church doctrine, and that this somehow conflicts with the Democratic Party and Liberal puppets, well, those who have actually been with him (and I know a few) might beg to differ.

https://www.lovewithoutend.com/Apparitio...Christ.htm
https://www.lovewithoutend.com/Love_With...d_Book.htm

I suggested that Classic X'er "find Jesus". He is not going to find the Buddha, for example. He is not going to develop a viable moral compass from atheism or agnosticism as did someone like Bertrand Russell. (Russell is arguably the most accessible of all philosophers, and I suggest that devout Christians read his Why I Am Not a Christian, which would compel some devout Christians to challenge some assumptions. Classic X'er has even more basic assumptions to challenge, assumptions that make him a miserable person more vulnerable than he thinks. He is, in view of his ideology, one crippling accident away from becoming 'expendable' to the Master Class of the USA.

Classic X'er seems to hold a social-Darwinist view of the world even when such is contrary to his economic interest. He would fare better if more people in his area could afford air conditioners, which are somewhat of a luxury in places where brutal heat is more sporadic (the Twin Cities) than where it is entrenched for at least three months of the year (Kansas City). With his social-Darwinist Weltanschauung comes no milk of kindness and no meaning in life other than an economic struggle on behalf of irresponsible people to whom the rest of us are either responsible or expendable. If he has children, then a social-Darwinist regime could easily turn those into cannon fodder in wars for profit, which is itself tragedy.

Roman Catholicism and mainline Protestant churches have had to deal with that cruel ideology and have rejected it. It would be best that he know why such is so.  If he must find Jesus to imagine a better world in the here and now , and not simply "pie in the sky when you die", then he would be a kinder and more agreeable person.  

This is not the first time that I made such a suggestion. I did much the same to someone who slandered me as a homosexual child molester. Sometimes I get desperate in my moral arguing, and I must turn to pragmatic appeals. He mocked my appeal... "You went to church? You hypocrite!"

No, he was the hypocrite for failing to recognize that I could be right, that acceptance of homosexuality (if not child molesting, which mainstream LGBT people excoriate especially if they have child custody just as I do) i8s necessary for law and order which I consider vital to a civil society. Gay-bashing is lawlessness, and it is not my duty (let alone ability) to convince a gay-hater that I be 'straight'.

My father had just lost his wife to parkinsonism after heavy involvement in her care, and I wanted him to reconnect with Humanity in something other than a custodial setting. I would have introduced him to bar-hopping if that would have found him meaning. It was not easy, and my effort eventually (and inevitably) failed, and I have paid a high price for that failure even if such is not my fault. Loyalty to parents under difficult circumstances is a virtue. 

No nation can afford a Master Class or Master Race.

I took care of my mother for a year without you ever knowing it. Do I have to remind you that I'm not the one who claimed to be suicidal, who took offense to a sarcastic response of mine in the past and made a big deal about it? So, did Obama make your miserable blue life any better or did your miserable blue life continue? Gay bashing is lawless. Using "Peaceful" protests as a means to insight and support riots is lawless too. Financially supporting those who are participating in illegal rioting is lawless too. Executing/murdering protesters and political resistance is lawless. Doing nothing or a little as possible about any of it for political gain is lawless too. Whether you can see it, accept it or not doesn't matter at this point because we've already seen it all and associate it with the Democratic side at this point. So, Biden has his work cut out for him 

You're going to lose the support of half the country so you better get that absent brain of yours working before your living on some street like millions of others like you because it's pretty clear that the Democratic system can no longer afford you, the illegals, the transients, the criminals, the welfare recipients, the public employees, the court system, public works, the fire department, and whatever else they've committed America to at the same time these days. We're seeing that occurring too. So, Mr Mindless Democrat who is always wrapped up in himself, his problems and his emotions, do the arrogant Liberal Democrats who spend the bulk of their time in Washington think the Iraq War looked like fun and do they believe they could over come a similar war being fought against them here?

[Eric the Green]

(10-24-2020, 05:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-24-2020, 01:24 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(10-24-2020, 04:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-24-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I have no doubt that Biden will have his work cut out for him and it's very obvious to me that  he's not up for the task and it's also obvious that he's not in the same league as FDR either. It's to bad that you didn't invest more time in building a relationship with Jesus than you invested with the Democratic party, you wouldn't be in need of a Liberal puppet trying to play the role of Jesus on Earth these days.

I don't know what YOU mean by "building a relationship with Jesus," but many have testified for the last 2 millennia about having been visited by him. And this lady did "build a relationship" with him, and she's not the only one. But if you think building a relationship with Jesus implies just reading and believing in the Bible as interpreted by church doctrine, and that this somehow conflicts with the Democratic Party and Liberal puppets, well, those who have actually been with him (and I know a few) might beg to differ.

https://www.lovewithoutend.com/Apparitio...Christ.htm
https://www.lovewithoutend.com/Love_With...d_Book.htm

I suggested that Classic X'er "find Jesus". He is not going to find the Buddha, for example. He is not going to develop a viable moral compass from atheism or agnosticism as did someone like Bertrand Russell. (Russell is arguably the most accessible of all philosophers, and I suggest that devout Christians read his Why I Am Not a Christian, which would compel some devout Christians to challenge some assumptions. Classic X'er has even more basic assumptions to challenge, assumptions that make him a miserable person more vulnerable than he thinks. He is, in view of his ideology, one crippling accident away from becoming 'expendable' to the Master Class of the USA.

Classic X'er seems to hold a social-Darwinist view of the world even when such is contrary to his economic interest. He would fare better if more people in his area could afford air conditioners, which are somewhat of a luxury in places where brutal heat is more sporadic (the Twin Cities) than where it is entrenched for at least three months of the year (Kansas City). With his social-Darwinist Weltanschauung comes no milk of kindness and no meaning in life other than an economic struggle on behalf of irresponsible people to whom the rest of us are either responsible or expendable. If he has children, then a social-Darwinist regime could easily turn those into cannon fodder in wars for profit, which is itself tragedy.

Roman Catholicism and mainline Protestant churches have had to deal with that cruel ideology and have rejected it. It would be best that he know why such is so.  If he must find Jesus to imagine a better world in the here and now , and not simply "pie in the sky when you die", then he would be a kinder and more agreeable person.  

This is not the first time that I made such a suggestion. I did much the same to someone who slandered me as a homosexual child molester. Sometimes I get desperate in my moral arguing, and I must turn to pragmatic appeals. He mocked my appeal... "You went to church? You hypocrite!"

No, he was the hypocrite for failing to recognize that I could be right, that acceptance of homosexuality (if not child molesting, which mainstream LGBT people excoriate especially if they have child custody just as I do) i8s necessary for law and order which I consider vital to a civil society. Gay-bashing is lawlessness, and it is not my duty (let alone ability) to convince a gay-hater that I be 'straight'.

My father had just lost his wife to parkinsonism after heavy involvement in her care, and I wanted him to reconnect with Humanity in something other than a custodial setting. I would have introduced him to bar-hopping if that would have found him meaning. It was not easy, and my effort eventually (and inevitably) failed, and I have paid a high price for that failure even if such is not my fault. Loyalty to parents under difficult circumstances is a virtue. 

No nation can afford a Master Class or Master Race.

I took care of my mother for a year without you ever  knowing it. Do I have to remind you that I'm not the one who claimed to be suicidal, who took offense to a sarcastic response of mine in the past and made a big deal about it? So, did Obama make your miserable blue life any better or did your miserable blue life continue? Gay bashing is lawless. Using  "Peaceful" protests as a means to insight and support riots is lawless too. Financially supporting those who are participating in illegal rioting is lawless too. Executing/murdering protesters and political resistance is lawless. Doing nothing or a little as possible about any of it for political gain is lawless too. Whether you can see it, accept it or not doesn't matter at this point because we've already seen it all and associate it with the Democratic side at this point. So, Biden has his work cut out for him 

You're going to lose the support of half the country so you better get that absent brain of yours working before your living on some street like millions of others like you because it's pretty clear that the Democratic system can no longer afford you, the illegals, the transients, the criminals, the welfare recipients, the public employees, the court system, public works, the fire department, and whatever else they've committed America to at the same time these days. We're seeing that occurring too. So, Mr Mindless Democrat who is always wrapped up in himself, his problems and his emotions, do the arrogant Liberal Democrats who spend the bulk of their time in Washington think the Iraq War looked like fun and do they believe they could over come a similar war being fought against them here?

I hope that if the people are fooled again into voting themselves into fascism, that I will be able to leave the country or be a part of a split-off blue country. I don't want to live in your America any more than you want to live in mine. You guys are hopeless and pathetic.

We're on a highway all right. The highway to hell. We'd better get off now and make a left turn.

You guys are paranoid about "socialism." But socialism has long been a part of America. From the 1890s to 1940s it was very much a part of our politics. Milwaukee had socialist mayors who were the best and provided good government. From Bryan to FDR the Democratic Party was a watered-down version of socialism. The problem was the communists in Russia and China and places like that. They were not democrats, but tyrants, and their system failed. The USA started the Cold War against them and we had wars against them in Korea and Vietnam. McCarthy accused people in government of being communists. His philosophy and the Cold War led to a fatal decline for socialist parties in the USA, though not elsewhere.

Then Reagan instituted trickle-down free-market neo-liberalism ideology and deceived you guys into thinking it "worked," when it only worked for the rich. But you classic Xers were raised under Reagan and you swallowed it hook, line and sinker. So socialism took another blow, and the Democrats became partial neo-liberals too. The result is rampant inequality, more poverty, families having to work two jobs, young people not able to leave home or find the work they need. Climate change has now almost reached the point of no return due to neo-liberal laissez faire policies. Democracy is waning and blacks no longer have the full right to vote. Our Courts protect bosses in their mistreatment of consumers and workers. Health care is not available for many, except those who got helped by Obamacare, which is about to be destroyed. Covid is left to state governments by your laissez faire "non-authoritarian" leader, and if they are Republican, the disease is allowed to kill thousands more than it would have otherwise.

Socialism is not the only part of liberalism, but it's an important part. It is a necessary aspect of the revolution of modern times that brings liberty, equality and fraternity/greenpeace. The Revolution has three phases. It is everywhere, including the USA. It does not belong to one nation and is not excluded in any nation.
http://philosopherswheel.com/thethreerevolutions.html

[David Horn]

(10-24-2020, 03:03 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Unlike Biden, Trump has enough American support to hand over the keys to Biden and then lead a movement to break with the Democratic states and establish a group of American states at this point. So, would you prefer to experience a repeat of the American Revolutionary War or a repeat of the American Civil War this time around or a deadly combination of the previous American conflicts this time around so to speak? 

Actually, the split may be acceptable to both sides. Like any divorce, dividing the assets and liabilities will be real challenge.