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Article: The Ghosts of ’68 Haunt the Election of 2016
#21
(05-18-2016, 12:17 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-17-2016, 03:11 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-17-2016, 03:06 PM)Odin Wrote: 99% of self-described "Libertarians" are just Conservatives who like smoking weed and hate the Religious Right.

Well maybe we should hear him out on what makes him a libertarian? Then again he is not obligated to do so. Just i hear a lot of labeling without seeing the varying shades (differences).

Odin as usual is clueless although that answer as to how I am a libertarian is simple enough to figure out if read what I write closely enough.  For those who can't be bothered I am a libertarian in the Rothbardian tradition, simply look up Murray Rothbard and you will find Mr. Libertarian.  I highly recommend that you read some of his popular works.

Cue Odin's ranting about Rothbard.

We do not have what Americans call libertarians here. Then again we do not have the same system as America. If anyone should know though, it should be an American. Here in NZ we go by National, labour, NZ First, Greens, etc.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#22
(05-17-2016, 02:18 PM)taramarie Wrote: I would rather see action being taken to fix what mess they have created than to whine about what they have done. Which is why you do not see me bitching about them, but rather acting quietly to fix what they have messed up. Examples for me would be holding back my future to pay off my mother's massive debt, being part of the SVA to help the needy that the boomers in power fail to help via govt and winz (they are the ones in power after all), and I am part of the occupy movement here too who are discussing what needs to be solved and how to solve it through mass movement. In other words I do not whine about them. Whining does nothing. I try to fix it and often with others as that is what gets things done.

They have had decades and flatly refuse to deal with the debt issue which they have had decades to do something about.  This applies to both the right and the left, the only real argument was what to spend it on.  Reducing spending was never seriously considered.  As a consequence, fixing the problem is not possible until enough of them get planted into the ground.  This is the sad brutal truth of the situation.

Some of them are looking for the regeneracy even though we haven't got to the SHTF stage of the Fourth Turning.  This is just one more symptom of the state of denial they have had for decades.  They may as well get some clue about what the consequences are likely to be.  There are Xers out there that make me look positively merciful where the Boomers are concerned.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#23
(05-17-2016, 02:35 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:
(05-17-2016, 03:30 AM)Galen Wrote: Not merely the Republican Party but rather the US as a whole.  I suspect that the only thing holding the institutions of the second turning together are the Boomers and they won't last forever.  Seeing the Lost go was a tragedy. The passing of the Boomers not so much.

The only Boomers I plan on mourning after their passing are direct blood relations.  The rest of the generation will not get such magnanimous treatment by me.

Pretty much where I am at.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#24
(05-18-2016, 12:31 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-17-2016, 02:18 PM)taramarie Wrote: I would rather see action being taken to fix what mess they have created than to whine about what they have done. Which is why you do not see me bitching about them, but rather acting quietly to fix what they have messed up. Examples for me would be holding back my future to pay off my mother's massive debt, being part of the SVA to help the needy that the boomers in power fail to help via govt and winz (they are the ones in power after all), and I am part of the occupy movement here too who are discussing what needs to be solved and how to solve it through mass movement. In other words I do not whine about them. Whining does nothing. I try to fix it and often with others as that is what gets things done.

They have had decades and flatly refuse to deal with the debt issue which they have had decades to do something about.  This applies to both the right and the left, the only real argument was what to spend it on.  Reducing spending was never seriously considered.  As a consequence, fixing the problem is not possible until enough of them get planted into the ground.  This is the sad brutal truth of the situation.

Some of them are looking for the regeneracy even though we haven't got to the SHTF stage of the Fourth Turning.  This is just one more symptom of the state of denial they have had for decades.  They may as well get some clue about what the consequences are likely to be.  There are Xers out there that make me look positively merciful where the Boomers are concerned.
Boomers are getting older. They will not be in charge forever. Our day will come. (hopefully soon for xers and millies both). In other words, I know they will not listen. Cant teach old dogs new tricks, but you can stir up the system with others.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#25
(05-18-2016, 12:23 AM)taramarie Wrote: We do not have what Americans call libertarians here. Then again we do not have the same system as America. If anyone should know though, it should be an American. Here in NZ we go by National, labour, NZ First, Greens, etc.

If New Zealand follow European definitions then what you have would go by the name of Liberal which is called a Classical Liberal here.  A Rothbardian considers the Classical Liberal position to be a good start.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
Reply
#26
(05-18-2016, 12:37 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:23 AM)taramarie Wrote: We do not have what Americans call libertarians here. Then again we do not have the same system as America. If anyone should know though, it should be an American. Here in NZ we go by National, labour, NZ First, Greens, etc.

If New Zealand follow European definitions then what you have would go by the name of Liberal which is called a Classical Liberal here.  A Rothbardian considers the Classical Liberal position to be a good start.

Ah I see. Yes we use that term.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#27
(05-18-2016, 12:34 AM)taramarie Wrote: Boomers are getting older. They will not be in charge forever. Our day will come. (hopefully soon for xers and millies both). In other words, I know they will not listen. Cant teach old dogs new tricks, but you can stir up the system with others.

True enough, but they seem hellbent on creating as big of a disaster as possible.  Consider it to be thanking them for all that is to come in advance, while they are still around.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
Reply
#28
(05-18-2016, 12:38 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:37 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:23 AM)taramarie Wrote: We do not have what Americans call libertarians here. Then again we do not have the same system as America. If anyone should know though, it should be an American. Here in NZ we go by National, labour, NZ First, Greens, etc.

If New Zealand follow European definitions then what you have would go by the name of Liberal which is called a Classical Liberal here.  A Rothbardian considers the Classical Liberal position to be a good start.

Ah I see. Yes we use that term.

Though that you might.  The modern liberals in the US are either a socialists or progressives but they stole the brand.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
Reply
#29
(05-18-2016, 12:39 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:34 AM)taramarie Wrote: Boomers are getting older. They will not be in charge forever. Our day will come. (hopefully soon for xers and millies both). In other words, I know they will not listen. Cant teach old dogs new tricks, but you can stir up the system with others.

True enough, but they seem hellbent on creating as big of a disaster as possible.  Consider it to be thanking them for all that is to come in advance, while they are still around.

True true. Here in NZ they are making it harder for younger folk to actually buy their first home. Many are sleeping in cars ffs because they cannot afford housing. On top of it we have that god awful tpp which i hear for a start is going to make medical costs go up. All of this of course will hit the poor the hardest. Which would most certainly impact younger folk who are trying to get a start in life. On top of that a huge chunk of pay goes to paying off student debt....for those of us who have managed to find a job. No thanks to letting in more immigrants who are employed first due to being more cost effective. Of course and refugees who I hear are given a home, car and a job when they arrive while the rest of us work our arses off and still cannot afford these things in many cases. I feel for refugees, i really do. But they should work for these things same as the rest of us. We are paying for all of the things given to them.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#30
(05-18-2016, 12:43 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:38 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:37 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:23 AM)taramarie Wrote: We do not have what Americans call libertarians here. Then again we do not have the same system as America. If anyone should know though, it should be an American. Here in NZ we go by National, labour, NZ First, Greens, etc.

If New Zealand follow European definitions then what you have would go by the name of Liberal which is called a Classical Liberal here.  A Rothbardian considers the Classical Liberal position to be a good start.

Ah I see. Yes we use that term.

Though that you might.  The modern liberals in the US are either a socialists or progressives but they stole the brand.

Oh I see. I have heard of all these terms and had an idea of what they meant. But as an outsider I do not use these terms here in my own country. No one does in NZ. Those terms are American. I was not aware a liberal could be either a socialist or progressive. So a liberal is a category and socialist or progressive would be considered a sub category within being a liberal. I get it now. I always thought a liberal was something different again.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#31
(05-18-2016, 12:52 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:43 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:38 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:37 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:23 AM)taramarie Wrote: We do not have what Americans call libertarians here. Then again we do not have the same system as America. If anyone should know though, it should be an American. Here in NZ we go by National, labour, NZ First, Greens, etc.

If New Zealand follow European definitions then what you have would go by the name of Liberal which is called a Classical Liberal here.  A Rothbardian considers the Classical Liberal position to be a good start.

Ah I see. Yes we use that term.

Though that you might.  The modern liberals in the US are either a socialists or progressives but they stole the brand.

Oh I see. I have heard of all these terms and had an idea of what they meant. But as an outsider I do not use these terms here in my own country. No one does in NZ. Those terms are American. I was not aware a liberal could be either a socialist or progressive. So a liberal is a category and socialist or progressive would be considered a sub category within being a liberal. I get it now. I always thought a liberal was something different again.
Tara, I think the party that Roger Douglas founded after Labor booted him is basic basically a libertarian party.
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#32
(05-18-2016, 12:52 AM)taramarie Wrote: So a liberal is a category and socialist or progressive would be considered a sub category within being a liberal. I get it now. I always thought a liberal was something different again.

Its more like a deliberate deception to get what they wanted which was power.  For example FDR ran as a fiscal conservative and then gave us the New Deal which was simply more of Hoover's intervention. After a few decades the name stuck to the wrong people.  The average person doesn't make any distinction and at this stage it doesn't really matter.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
Reply
#33
(05-18-2016, 01:01 AM)Dan Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:52 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:43 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:38 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:37 AM)Galen Wrote: If New Zealand follow European definitions then what you have would go by the name of Liberal which is called a Classical Liberal here.  A Rothbardian considers the Classical Liberal position to be a good start.

Ah I see. Yes we use that term.

Though that you might.  The modern liberals in the US are either a socialists or progressives but they stole the brand.

Oh I see. I have heard of all these terms and had an idea of what they meant. But as an outsider I do not use these terms here in my own country. No one does in NZ. Those terms are American. I was not aware a liberal could be either a socialist or progressive. So a liberal is a category and socialist or progressive would be considered a sub category within being a liberal. I get it now. I always thought a liberal was something different again.
Tara, I think the party that Roger Douglas founded after Labor booted him is basic basically a libertarian party.

You mean the ACT Party? I do not go with them as they tend to side with National and they have sort of blended in with them. Just as bad as our right wingers who are making things harder on the average kiwi as of late. NZ First however is a mix of both worlds (left and right) which tends to piss off both to my delight naturally!
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#34
(05-18-2016, 01:05 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 01:01 AM)Dan Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:52 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:43 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 12:38 AM)taramarie Wrote: Ah I see. Yes we use that term.

Though that you might.  The modern liberals in the US are either a socialists or progressives but they stole the brand.

Oh I see. I have heard of all these terms and had an idea of what they meant. But as an outsider I do not use these terms here in my own country. No one does in NZ. Those terms are American. I was not aware a liberal could be either a socialist or progressive. So a liberal is a category and socialist or progressive would be considered a sub category within being a liberal. I get it now. I always thought a liberal was something different again.
Tara, I think the party that Roger Douglas founded after Labor booted him is basic basically a libertarian party.

You mean the ACT Party? I do not go with them as they tend to side with National and they have sort of blended in with them. Just as bad as our right wingers who are making things harder on the average kiwi as of late. NZ First however is a mix of both worlds (left and right) which tends to piss off both to my delight naturally!

I don't know the name, and I'm too busy editing the board to look it up.

BTW I added a NZ flag smilie for you.
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#35
No, it is the ghosts of 1860, not 1968, that haunt this election - and it will be 1860 on an even higher plane if the Reform Party nominates someone worth voting for, since that would make this a five-way screaming match instead of "only" four.
"It was better with them that were slain by the sword, than with them that died with hunger, for these pined away being consumed for want of the fruits of the earth" - Lamentations 4:9
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