The Maelstrom of Violence

[pbrower2a]

The attempted assassination of Representative Scalise suggests now that both people on sides of the political divide are now prone to violence. To be sure, the rhetoric worsened when Obama was President, and the Right was first to act violent.  But so far the Right has stopped at beatings, body-slamming, and other degrading abuses. But not shootings. The shooter had a list of Representatives in the self-described (and hypocritically named) Freedom Caucus.

James T. Hodgkinson had personal run-ins with the law that until recently had no connections to politics. People who knew him in the Sanders campaign thought him 'mellow, quiet, and reserved'. But electoral campaigns generally bring out the best in us, as there are people who might lead someone away from violent deeds. Besides, electioneering is ordinarily an exercise in optimism and not in despair.

I am guessing that should American elections become easy wins for Republicans and exercises in futility for Democrats, then American politics becomes as much a sham as politics in China. Republicans might allow Democrats to have some power in cities and a small number of states, but that will be it. Republicans will not lose any election that they aren't willing to lose. A key to getting ahead, as in getting a college education, a home loan, advancement beyond the third-lowest rank in the Armed Forces, a business loan, or having a chance at a non-menial job will be active participation in Republican-led youth groups. Don't like that? Maybe you might want to get a college scholarship in a country with a declining population.

I also can imagine that the Republican leadership will seek power in police repression, and that the State could try to establish the usual methods of suppressing opposition that one sees in fascist, Commie, and Ba'athist regimes: torture chambers, labor camps, execution pits, and abuse of psychiatry. Lobotomy, anyone? Hell, no!

I am not a violent person, but I am not going to any torture chamber, concentration camp, or lobotomy clinic. If things get bad enough, then I may take a wintertime hike in southern Arizona, letting a star be my guide: Achernar or Canopus near the horizon. In summer I might improvise a raft to cross into Canada, following Altair in the east or Capella in the north -- if taking a jetliner is out of the question.

[Odin]

A chilling National Rifle Association ad gaining traction online appears to be 'an open call to violence'

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-30-2017, 08:01 AM)Odin Wrote: A chilling National Rifle Association ad gaining traction online appears to be 'an open call to violence'

They do stop short of being 'an open call to violence'... by about a millimeter and a half.  An interesting point is that most of the accusations against the blue are pretty much true.  The one about schools teaching children that Trump is Hitler is a new one to me.  What school districts are doing that?

I'd throw that ad in the same bucket as our own 'Let's make fun of Trump' thread.  If you buy into one set of memes or the other, it becomes easy to demonize the other side.  I can easily perceive red folk seeing the main stream media, Hollywood and some generational theory forums as being in all out demonize attack mode.  A lot of the stuff from late night comedy we get posted on this forum is about as fair and balanced as the NRA ad.  The notion is to reduce the other side to less than sane threats to the nation.

The ad does reflect how far the spiral of rhetoric has gone.  The spiral of violence is generally not far behind.  Is the violence organized?  Are the violent trying to get away with it so they can do it again?  How cheap is life?  Can someone considering violence easily find logical sounding voices that call for and justify the violence?  How hard is it, really, to blame one's own violence on the actions of the other guy?  How far away are the various extreme partisans from thinking that the extreme partisans on the other side should die?

If someone has a lot of time, they might want to read through On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society.  There is a process of reducing an opposing group to being perceived of as subhuman.  Get people to that point, and it becomes OK to murder them.  The NRA seems to be pushing in that direction.

[pbrower2a]

"The violence of lies"... talk about projection!

Guns wonderful, criticism of the President horrible. Where has that been the official view? And how does that view protect freedom?

[Eric the Green]

The late night comics tell the truth. The NRA lies. Truth is an adequate defense against libel, and against "demonizing."

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-30-2017, 12:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The late night comics tell the truth. The NRA lies. Truth is an adequate defense against libel, and against "demonizing."

I disagree.  The late night comics seem to think that the more left spin you put on an issue, the more their audience will accept it, and the more 'funny' it is.

Most of the NRA ad is true if you can for a moment turn off your left spin perspective long enough to see reality.  Many can't.  As a general rule, both sides will lean on Truth heavily, but spin selective truths hard.  As much as you will cheerfully embrace the left perspective of the late night comics, there are others who will look at the NRA's perspective and nod approval.  The most effective propaganda borrows heavily from Truth, and both factions are playing it that way.

This is not in any way an endorsement of the unraveling memes.  Still, a good size part of the country still believes in the unraveling memes.  (Borrow and spend.  Trickle down.  Spend on the military.  Cut domestic services.  The government is the problem.)  There is a delusion that all one has to do is find politicians who will implement the unraveling memes properly.  Lots of luck with that.  Trump is flailing about.  Bush 43 was a disaster.  His father wasn't much better.  It's the economy, stupid.  The unraveling memes haven't worked and aren't apt to work.  Their time, if they ever had a time, is past.

In the meanwhile, there are demons on either flank thinking there is nothing wrong with demonizing.  It sure feels different if one is the one being demonized, no?

[Warren Dew]

(06-30-2017, 10:20 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 08:01 AM)Odin Wrote: A chilling National Rifle Association ad gaining traction online appears to be 'an open call to violence'

They do stop short of being 'an open call to violence'... by about a millimeter and a half.  An interesting point is that most of the accusations against the blue are pretty much true.  The one about schools teaching children that Trump is Hitler is a new one to me.  What school districts are doing that?

My kids' did during the campaign.  While the things Loesch highlights are among the most extreme activities of the left, they are all true.

It's not a call to violence; it's a call to be ready if violence does occur.  Granted if both sides do that, things could easily spiral out of control.  I'm not sure I can see the left telling everyone to arm themselves, though.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-30-2017, 10:20 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: I now strongly suspect a GRU/Spetsnaz op to incite a faction of the US Right to go vigilante. They would love to see Americans shooting each other. "Oh, now we need to step in and help restore order in the USA. The USA has fallen apart." Sad thing is, there are now enough dupes on the Right who think of Putin as one of the good guys, and the Kremlin being more in common with them than "the libs," that the prospect of a Vichy or Quisling scenario is plausible.

And the Kremlin salivates. Taking down the US is now within reach.

I sometimes wonder if the Kremlin should bother.  If they leave us alone, we are quite capable of taking down ourselves.

Then there is the optimistic opinion...

Winston Churchill Wrote:You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

[Eric the Green]

(06-30-2017, 02:41 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 12:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The late night comics tell the truth. The NRA lies. Truth is an adequate defense against libel, and against "demonizing."

I disagree.  The late night comics seem to think that the more left spin you put on an issue, the more their audience will accept it, and the more 'funny' it is.

The right wing has all the radio talk shows, and other right-wing outlets. I am so glad that the left at least has a few late-night comics. They are all brilliant, and they tell the truth. It's not spin; it's just the facts, and the humor pretty much writes itself given the activities and behavior of the right. And laughing at least relieves some of the tension, which otherwise may lead some to violence (as we have begun to see). Telling the truth with a smile and a laugh, can be effective communication too. They get things across quite well.

Quote:Most of the NRA ad is true if you can for a moment turn off your left spin perspective long enough to see reality.  Many can't.  As a general rule, both sides will lean on Truth heavily, but spin selective truths hard.  As much as you will cheerfully embrace the left perspective of the late night comics, there are others who will look at the NRA's perspective and nod approval.  The most effective propaganda borrows heavily from Truth, and both factions are playing it that way.

I would not debate about the NRA. Case closed.

Quote:This is not in any way an endorsement of the unraveling memes.  Still, a good size part of the country still believes in the unraveling memes.  (Borrow and spend.  Trickle down.  Spend on the military.  Cut domestic services.  The government is the problem.)  There is a delusion that all one has to do is find politicians who will implement the unraveling memes properly.  Lots of luck with that.  Trump is flailing about.  Bush 43 was a disaster.  His father wasn't much better.  It's the economy, stupid.  The unraveling memes haven't worked and aren't apt to work.  Their time, if they ever had a time, is past.

Well, pretty good grist for the comic mill, then, isn't it? It has gone so far past ridiculous that it's an amazingly easy target.

Quote:In the meanwhile, there are demons on either flank thinking there is nothing wrong with demonizing.  It sure feels different if one is the one being demonized, no?

Better communication is always something to try, in the right context at least. It's also up to the right-wing to stop being demons. I don't see that happening until the 4T is over, at least; assuming they lose it that is.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-30-2017, 11:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 02:41 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 12:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The late night comics tell the truth. The NRA lies. Truth is an adequate defense against libel, and against "demonizing."

I disagree.  The late night comics seem to think that the more left spin you put on an issue, the more their audience will accept it, and the more 'funny' it is.

The right wing has all the radio talk shows, and other right-wing outlets. I am so glad that the left at least has a few late-night comics. They are all brilliant, and they tell the truth. It's not spin; it's just the facts, and the humor pretty much writes itself given the activities and behavior of the right. And laughing at least relieves some of the tension, which otherwise may lead some to violence (as we have begun to see). Telling the truth with a smile and a laugh, can be effective communication too. They get things across quite well.

Not truth.  Using a comic format, one is allowed to exaggerate or lie, laugh, then exaggerate or lie again...  and again... and again.  Very funny, but there is a butt to every joke.  A smile or a laugh involves the showing of teeth.  From way way back in hunter gatherer days, that was a threat display.  It has evolved into a threat that isn't a threat display.  It's a way of putting people down.

They are good at telling a blue audience what they want to hear, and confirm the red audience that there is a prejudiced irrational vast conspiracy that is not listening and is out to disparage them.  So long as the red folk are being bombarded by hate and prejudice they will respond with hate and prejudice.

Can't argue, though, that in political pundit radio and other formats, the red faction doesn't do similar things.

(06-30-2017, 11:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 02:41 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Most of the NRA ad is true if you can for a moment turn off your left spin perspective long enough to see reality.  Many can't.  As a general rule, both sides will lean on Truth heavily, but spin selective truths hard.  As much as you will cheerfully embrace the left perspective of the late night comics, there are others who will look at the NRA's perspective and nod approval.  The most effective propaganda borrows heavily from Truth, and both factions are playing it that way.

I would not debate about the NRA. Case closed.

Your mind is also closed.

(06-30-2017, 11:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 02:41 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: This is not in any way an endorsement of the unraveling memes.  Still, a good size part of the country still believes in the unraveling memes.  (Borrow and spend.  Trickle down.  Spend on the military.  Cut domestic services.  The government is the problem.)  There is a delusion that all one has to do is find politicians who will implement the unraveling memes properly.  Lots of luck with that.  Trump is flailing about.  Bush 43 was a disaster.  His father wasn't much better.  It's the economy, stupid.  The unraveling memes haven't worked and aren't apt to work.  Their time, if they ever had a time, is past.

Well, pretty good grist for the comic mill, then, isn't it? It has gone so far past ridiculous that it's an amazingly easy target.

There is that line from Simon and Garfunkel's 'The Boxer'.  

Paul Simon Wrote:I am just a poor boy though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises, all lies and jest,
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, hmmm

Sure, lefties can tell lefties what they want to hear and think it is true and funny.  They can create and live in their bubble universe.  They can be so out in left field that the right folk feel justified in turning their minds off.  Do you wonder why folk like Galen aren't listening?  It's in part the constant bombardment of lies and ridicule.

(06-30-2017, 11:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 02:41 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: In the meanwhile, there are demons on either flank thinking there is nothing wrong with demonizing.  It sure feels different if one is the one being demonized, no?

Better communication is always something to try, in the right context at least. It's also up to the right-wing to stop being demons. I don't see that happening until the 4T is over, at least; assuming they lose it that is.

It is equally up to both wings to stop being demons.  Start with the guy in the mirror.

[Odin]

(06-30-2017, 10:15 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 08:01 AM)Odin Wrote: A chilling National Rifle Association ad gaining traction online appears to be 'an open call to violence'

I'm a life member. I've been thinking of quitting. That would be a really big deal for me. Heck, my wife has been asking if I would consider quitting. She's the last person I would have expected to say that.

You know, there are many Russophiles now in the NRA. Once they got a taste of Russian export guns they came to love Russia. It makes me ill.

My stepdad, who was an ardent progressive, an army vet, and an avid hunter, cancelled his NRA membership 20 years ago because he was so pissed that it was becoming a lobbying arm of the GOP.

[Eric the Green]

(07-01-2017, 06:42 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 11:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 02:41 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 12:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The late night comics tell the truth. The NRA lies. Truth is an adequate defense against libel, and against "demonizing."

I disagree.  The late night comics seem to think that the more left spin you put on an issue, the more their audience will accept it, and the more 'funny' it is.

The right wing has all the radio talk shows, and other right-wing outlets. I am so glad that the left at least has a few late-night comics. They are all brilliant, and they tell the truth. It's not spin; it's just the facts, and the humor pretty much writes itself given the activities and behavior of the right. And laughing at least relieves some of the tension, which otherwise may lead some to violence (as we have begun to see). Telling the truth with a smile and a laugh, can be effective communication too. They get things across quite well.

Not truth.  Using a comic format, one is allowed to exaggerate or lie, laugh, then exaggerate or lie again...  and again... and again.  Very funny, but there is a butt to every joke.  A smile or a laugh involves the showing of teeth.  From way way back in hunter gatherer days, that was a threat display.  It has evolved into a threat that isn't a threat display.  It's a way of putting people down.

They are good at telling a blue audience what they want to hear, and confirm the red audience that there is a prejudiced irrational vast conspiracy that is not listening and is out to disparage them.  So long as the red folk are being bombarded by hate and prejudice they will respond with hate and prejudice.

Can't argue, though, that in political pundit radio and other formats, the red faction doesn't do similar things.

They don't do similar things at all. They have no humor, and no truth. It's just utter propaganda. You can listen to Alex Jones, and then claim the two sides are the same? I know that, although you don't practice it yourself, that you have an idealistic view that you can look at both sides the same. It just does not work today. There may be grains of truth on all sides, but the preponderance is clear. The blue comics mix facts with humor. If you listened to Oliver, Meyers or Colbert you would know that.

Quote:

Quote:I would not debate about the NRA. Case closed.

Your mind is also closed.

There's no use arguing with me about the NRA, you know that; and personal attacks on me like that are not even arguments, let alone communication. You know that; you won't admit it. Just drop it. I will not argue with Nazis, and I will not argue with the KKK, or the NRA either.

Quote:

(06-30-2017, 11:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 02:41 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: This is not in any way an endorsement of the unraveling memes.  Still, a good size part of the country still believes in the unraveling memes.  (Borrow and spend.  Trickle down.  Spend on the military.  Cut domestic services.  The government is the problem.)  There is a delusion that all one has to do is find politicians who will implement the unraveling memes properly.  Lots of luck with that.  Trump is flailing about.  Bush 43 was a disaster.  His father wasn't much better.  It's the economy, stupid.  The unraveling memes haven't worked and aren't apt to work.  Their time, if they ever had a time, is past.

Well, pretty good grist for the comic mill, then, isn't it? It has gone so far past ridiculous that it's an amazingly easy target.

There is that line from Simon and Garfunkel's 'The Boxer'.  

Paul Simon Wrote:I am just a poor boy though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises, all lies and jest,
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, hmmm

Sure, lefties can tell lefties what they want to hear and think it is true and funny.  They can create and live in their bubble universe.  They can be so out in left field that the right folk feel justified in turning their minds off.  Do you wonder why folk like Galen aren't listening?  It's in part the constant bombardment of lies and ridicule.

It's because he believes the lies. It's up to him to see the truth. I'm not optimistic that he ever will. The ridicule comes from him.

Quote:

(06-30-2017, 11:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 02:41 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: In the meanwhile, there are demons on either flank thinking there is nothing wrong with demonizing.  It sure feels different if one is the one being demonized, no?

Better communication is always something to try, in the right context at least. It's also up to the right-wing to stop being demons. I don't see that happening until the 4T is over, at least; assuming they lose it that is.

It is equally up to both wings to stop being demons.  Start with the guy in the mirror.

You know that's not true. One side is the demon.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-01-2017, 03:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: They don't do similar things at all. They have no humor, and no truth. It's just utter propaganda. You can listen to Alex Jones, and then claim the two sides are the same? I know that, although you don't practice it yourself, that you have an idealistic view that you can look at both sides the same. It just does not work today. There may be grains of truth on all sides, but the preponderance is clear. The blue comics mix facts with humor. If you listened to Oliver, Meyers or Colbert you would know that.

Oh, I've listened to them.  It's just that in doing humor, they are allowed and expected to disparage and exaggerate.  The end result is nothing like objective truth.  They are spinning like crazy, presenting biased stuff, telling their selected audience what they expect to hear, with the intent to boost ratings an profit from the political discord they sow.

(07-01-2017, 03:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There's no use arguing with me about the NRA, you know that; and personal attacks on me like that are not even arguments, let alone communication. You know that; you won't admit it. Just drop it. I will not argue with Nazis, and I will not argue with the KKK, or the NRA either.

I am absurdly doubtful of converting or even having you understand and acknowledge the NRA point of view.

Saying your mind is closed is not a personal insult.  It is a cold fact.  It's the central cold fact.  You're one extreme partisan among many, and almost by definition an extreme partisan is incapable of listening or learning.  I will open discussions with many extreme partisans.  Getting any of them from either faction to change basic perspectives is not expected, absurdly rare and not a practical objective.  I'm often writing as much to illustrate values lock, the nature of partisanship, as to advocate for the red or blue perspective.

The thing that interests me about the NRA ad is that they speak true about some extreme members of the blue cult.  As Warren Dew mentioned, what is said in the ad is true, but much of it applies only to a very few extremists.  This truth is made clear by the videos shown as the extreme claims are made.  What they say happened happened.  This does not in the least suggest that your typical blue leaning person has blocked an interstate highway.  However, at least one interstate highway has been blocked.  Anyone who wishes to call them liars ought to be ready to prove the video a forgery, which they cannot.

But you don't seem to deal with that level of fact.  Fact seems irrelevant to you.  If something is unpleasant to your world view, you will call it a lie, with absolutely no attempt to fact check.  I absolutely expect this lack of integrity from any extreme partisan, not just you.  In expressing this opinion of extreme partisans, I'm not particularly looking to personally attack you, I'm vaguely hoping that the extreme partisans on one side might recognize that if the other side is absurdly prejudiced and closed minded, perhaps they might occasionally want to look in a mirror.

A vague and unrealistic hope.

Eric the Green Wrote:

Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

Eric the Green Wrote:

Bob Butler 54 Wrote:In the meanwhile, there are demons on either flank thinking there is nothing wrong with demonizing.  It sure feels different if one is the one being demonized, no?

Better communication is always something to try, in the right context at least. It's also up to the right-wing to stop being demons. I don't see that happening until the 4T is over, at least; assuming they lose it that is.

It is equally up to both wings to stop being demons.  Start with the guy in the mirror.

You know that's not true. One side is the demon.

Again, you are not listening.  The context of my original statement claimed demons on both extremes.  I used 'demon' in the context of 'one who demonizes.'  I have forever disliked you or any other extreme partisan who insists the other side is stupid, brainwashed, insane, evil or similarly subhuman.  The problem with extreme partisans to a great extent is the habit of demonizing rather than any opinion of the unraveling memes.  A core part of my world view is that major world views have solid reasons for coming into existence, and that many to most who hold such world views can and will believe in their perspective, and defend their perspective, intensely and well.

One who refuses to try to understand the opposing perspective is part of the problem.

[Galen]

(06-30-2017, 10:20 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-30-2017, 08:01 AM)Odin Wrote: A chilling National Rifle Association ad gaining traction online appears to be 'an open call to violence'

They do stop short of being 'an open call to violence'... by about a millimeter and a half.  An interesting point is that most of the accusations against the blue are pretty much true.  The one about schools teaching children that Trump is Hitler is a new one to me.  What school districts are doing that?

Pretty much my take on it.  As for the schools, it depends on where you live.  In my experience teachers have pretty much tended toward the left even though there are exceptions.  Hell, at PSU we had outright communists there so that accusation is not far from the truth and definitely true at the university level.

[Warren Dew]

(07-01-2017, 06:02 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: But you don't seem to deal with that level of fact.  Fact seems irrelevant to you.  If something is unpleasant to your world view, you will call it a lie, with absolutely no attempt to fact check.

I could be wrong, but I doubt Eric would dispute the facts.  I suspect his position is that he believes the violence on the part of the left is necessary and justified, up to and including the attempted assassination of Scalise.

[Eric the Green]

(07-01-2017, 06:02 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Oh, I've listened to them.  It's just that in doing humor, they are allowed and expected to disparage and exaggerate.  The end result is nothing like objective truth.  They are spinning like crazy, presenting biased stuff, telling their selected audience what they expect to hear, with the intent to boost ratings an profit from the political discord they sow.

I have a much more benign view toward them. If you don't know that they include facts in what they do, then I don't think you are listening to them, no.

Quote:A vague and unrealistic hope.

Right; give it up about the NRA. My mind is not closed in general, but it is closed about the NRA. Demonic indeed.

Bob Butler 54 Wrote:Again, you are not listening.  The context of my original statement claimed demons on both extremes.  I used 'demon' in the context of 'one who demonizes.'  I have forever disliked you or any other extreme partisan who insists the other side is stupid, brainwashed, insane, evil or similarly subhuman.  The problem with extreme partisans to a great extent is the habit of demonizing rather than any opinion of the unraveling memes.  A core part of my world view is that major world views have solid reasons for coming into existence, and that many to most who hold such world views can and will believe in their perspective, and defend their perspective, intensely and well.

One who refuses to try to understand the opposing perspective is part of the problem.

If you dislike someone, that is your decision. But that, and discussion about another poster's inadequacies, and unasked-for advice, is a personal attack, and not a discussion of the issues, and does not belong on this forum.

I understand the opposing perspectives all too well.

I agree about major world views having solid reasons for coming into existence. That's what spiral/planetary dynamics is about, and the review of planetary types I posted by Vic DiCara. Now though, our regressives are clinging to these memes when they need to move beyond them. Those who perpetuate these deceptions I might call demons, because I am angry at what they do. But I don't hate people, or dismiss the possibility that anyone has the potential to see the inherent light within them.

Demonic means that one is possessed by something not themselves. I know that this happens to all of us, much of the time.

[pbrower2a]

http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/02/media/cn...tml?iid=EL

[Warren Dew]

This is the same CNN that had to fire a couple of reporters for lying about the administration, right? They need to "start" doing their job; they can't "keep" doing it when they haven't done it to date.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-01-2017, 06:02 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Oh, I've listened to them.  It's just that in doing humor, they are allowed and expected to disparage and exaggerate.  The end result is nothing like objective truth.  They are spinning like crazy, presenting biased stuff, telling their selected audience what they expect to hear, with the intent to boost ratings an profit from the political discord they sow.

I have a much more benign view toward them. If you don't know that they include facts in what they do, then I don't think you are listening to them, no.

Of course you have a benign view.  You and they are extreme partisans spinning in the same direction.  What they say you are primed to accept without question, just as you will reject without question the NRA angle.  To me, they have an angle and you have to understand that angle and value what they say taking their spin into account.

Good propaganda these days is often based on truth, whether one is a late night comic or the NRA.  Fishing for reality from partisan sources requires understanding and removing the spin.  Accepting one type of spin with enthusiasm and little skepticism while rejecting the opposite spin is a good way to get trapped in a bubble reality.

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Right; give it up about the NRA. My mind is not closed in general, but it is closed about the NRA. Demonic indeed.

I'm trying to talk about extreme partisanship and closed world views.  You are just presenting such a perfect example.

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If you dislike someone, that is your decision. But that, and discussion about another poster's inadequacies, and unasked-for advice, is a personal attack, and not a discussion of the issues, and does not belong on this forum.

I'd like to see you live up to the boast.  If someone disagrees with you, they are demonized.  Your personal point of view is presumed to be correct, and anyone who disagrees with you must be utterly defeated.  Are  you going to stop telling people they are wrong and demanding they change or allow themselves to be politically subdued?  From my point of view, disagreements on political world views makes up the core part of these forums, the 'General Political Discussion' section in particular.

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I understand the opposing perspectives all too well.

You straw man quite a bit.  You have odd ideas on how they other guys think that seldom mesh with how they are actually thinking.  Not just  you by any means.  It's a common problem.  It's a core part of why extreme partisans can't communicate.

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I agree about major world views having solid reasons for coming into existence. That's what spiral/planetary dynamics is about, and the review of planetary types I posted by Vic DiCara. Now though, our regressives are clinging to these memes when they need to move beyond them. Those who perpetuate these deceptions I might call demons, because I am angry at what they do. But I don't hate people, or dismiss the possibility that anyone has the potential to see the inherent light within them.

Planetary Dynamics isn't dynamic.  You have clumped various world views / memes / areas of human endeavor into groups, associated these groups with planets and colors, and made value judgements about which groups are better than others.  It's a pretty good structure reflecting your schemes of things.  Those who think like you are good.  Those who don't are bad.  You listen to some folks well, and reject what comes from other groups.  It isn't a bad structure, so long as  you understand that everybody forms different world view groups, embraces certain groups, rejects other groups.  Your prejudices are not uniquely true in any way.  The basic structure of Planetary Dynamics can be used as a model of how extreme partisans think.  They make up their mind in advance as to what they will embrace, what they will reject.  Late night comics good.  NRA bad.

Now, I can agree with you that certain world views and memes are obsolete to dangerous.  The unraveling memes are key among them.  (Trickle down, borrow and spend, cut domestic services, spend on the military, the government is the problem.)  At a different level, tribal morality is a problem.  Many are out to optimize the culture for their own group, and diminish or disparage other groups.  In the health care debate, this sort of thinking has been expressed as "I've got mine, up yours."  The idea seems behind much racist thinking, and the alt right's opposition to equality, the notion that striving for equality is a form of tyranny and oppression.  (This isn't to say that striving for equality can't be overdone.)

But it seems safe to suggest that everyone has a set of memes they think obsolete, and a set of memes that they advocate for.  The above paragraph tops my personal list.  While convincing me that the above aren't important will be hard, I'm not going to pretend my list is uniquely universal or the only possible list.  I also completely expect those who disagree with me to believe in and defend well memes which oppose mine.

And this forum is a place for such activity.

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Demonic means that one is possessed by something not themselves. I know that this happens to all of us, much of the time.

Huh?  You seem to be throwing in some of your magical thinking?  The nuns fed me stories as a kid of demons taking over people, among other stories, with no real evidence.  Are you talking about magical thinking or is that some sort of allegory for your understanding of psychology?

Anyway, my own recent use of 'demon' is that demons demonize people.  Commonly, extreme partisans will insult, disparage and fail to understand extreme partisans of opposite ilk.  I see this as a problem, a character flaw, a way of thinking that one might strive to overcome.  Extreme partisans might see the tendency as a virtue.  Since side A is right, side B is wrong, it is acceptable to exaggerate, spin, insult, make fun of and in any way diminish the other guy.  This can definitely be taken too far.  It's a good excuse for the other guys to ignore everything that is being said, to respond in kind.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-03-2017, 11:51 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: I watched the speech at the Kennedy Center on CSPAN. I really really tried to keep an open mind. I really really tried to see what if anything this bozo has in common with Ronald Reagan. After all, many of my Rightist (or supposed Rightist) brethren keep comparing him to Reagan and comparing what he's trying to do to the Reagan Revolution. Try as I might, nothing clicked. This guy is way far away from being another Reagan. And his message is way off key from what Reagan used to give us. His Anglicized "Lugenpresse" repeated ad infinitum made me a bit nauseous. How can so many of my fellow Americans fail to realize this asshole is a wolf in sheep's clothing? How can they fail to realize in spite of all his rhetoric about "freeing" America from big bad Washington, he is actually leading us down the road to perdition?

Some Right talk hosts used to lament low information voters on the Left (and yes, there are many). But people in glass houses should not throw stones.

I do see Trump as riding the unraveling memes which are closely identified with Reagan.  (Borrow and spend, trickle down, spend on the military, cut domestic services, the government is the problem.)  If one is going to go for Republican office these days,  you almost have to ride these ideas.  However, I see these ideas as past their time.  In the aftermath of a long Democratic hold on power, New Deal through Great Society, there were positive things one could do with the unraveling memes.  Today, it's the unraveling memes that have lingered too long and stagnated Washington DC.

In terms of motivations and personality, I find the two men radically different.  I can respect Reagan as a grandfatherly feeling people person with his finger on the pulse of the nation and quite capable of reading a speech with feeling.  I never cared for his politics, but can respect his memory as a person.  Trump just turns me off.  I read Trump as a narcissist who strikes back when criticized, has some sort of hang up with women, and lacks the people skills to center a political coalition.

I find neither party has a lack of low information voters.

'Rightist' is just a label. Those who follow the unraveling memes have hijacked it. I have greater respect for some of the older meanings. How to revitalize the old meanings is problematic.