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The Maelstrom of Violence
(02-02-2021, 01:25 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 01:00 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-01-2021, 06:10 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-01-2021, 12:11 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-31-2021, 02:23 PM)Einzige Wrote: It is easier to find your own purpose when the instruments of production are made available to the whole society.

If machines do everything, and people do nothing, how does that help?

Machines won't do everything. They will do the overwhelming majority of physically constructive activities - construction, plumbing, welding, farming. There will always be creative human activities, from the arts to interpersonal services.

OK, but how does that help with the average person?  Most people are not artsy and creative or intellectually curious enough to pursue knowledge for its own sake. Instead, we'll have, as Paul Brower noted, people with hobbies and others with pathologies -- primarily substance abuse.  The singular alternative to all that is some form of mandatory social engagement.  In the past, the military draft served that purpose.  What would work today is ????

The average person absolutely would be artsy and creative and intellectually curious if the world allowed for it, but the overriding demand for profitability in all human endeavors precludes it. Those social pathologies (and I say this as a victim of it myself) overwhelmingly stem from feelings of social uselessness, which are grossly exacerbated by bourgeois class society.

I think I mostly agree with Einzige's statement.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
(02-02-2021, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 01:25 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 01:00 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-01-2021, 06:10 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-01-2021, 12:11 PM)David Horn Wrote: If machines do everything, and people do nothing, how does that help?

Machines won't do everything. They will do the overwhelming majority of physically constructive activities - construction, plumbing, welding, farming. There will always be creative human activities, from the arts to interpersonal services.

OK, but how does that help with the average person?  Most people are not artsy and creative or intellectually curious enough to pursue knowledge for its own sake. Instead, we'll have, as Paul Brower noted, people with hobbies and others with pathologies -- primarily substance abuse.  The singular alternative to all that is some form of mandatory social engagement.  In the past, the military draft served that purpose.  What would work today is ????

The average person absolutely would be artsy and creative and intellectually curious if the world allowed for it, but the overriding demand for profitability in all human endeavors precludes it. Those social pathologies (and I say this as a victim of it myself) overwhelmingly stem from feelings of social uselessness, which are grossly exacerbated by bourgeois class society.

I think I mostly agree with Einzige's statement.

You must limit who you associate with to a narrow few, because I know many people unable to even retire properly.  Half just watch TV and complain about this and that.  Others complain of boredom.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
Reply
(02-02-2021, 04:17 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 01:25 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 01:00 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-01-2021, 06:10 PM)Einzige Wrote: Machines won't do everything. They will do the overwhelming majority of physically constructive activities - construction, plumbing, welding, farming. There will always be creative human activities, from the arts to interpersonal services.

OK, but how does that help with the average person?  Most people are not artsy and creative or intellectually curious enough to pursue knowledge for its own sake. Instead, we'll have, as Paul Brower noted, people with hobbies and others with pathologies -- primarily substance abuse.  The singular alternative to all that is some form of mandatory social engagement.  In the past, the military draft served that purpose.  What would work today is ????

The average person absolutely would be artsy and creative and intellectually curious if the world allowed for it, but the overriding demand for profitability in all human endeavors precludes it. Those social pathologies (and I say this as a victim of it myself) overwhelmingly stem from feelings of social uselessness, which are grossly exacerbated by bourgeois class society.

I think I mostly agree with Einzige's statement.

You must limit who you associate with to a narrow few, because I know many people unable to even retire properly.  Half just watch TV and complain about this and that.  Others complain of boredom.

Half of those people would be much more fit and active if the world were genuinely accessible to them. Retirement in the sense of drawing on a limited pool of funds to fund limited activities socially fit for the elderly shouldn't exist.
Reply
(02-02-2021, 05:07 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 04:17 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 01:25 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 01:00 PM)David Horn Wrote: OK, but how does that help with the average person?  Most people are not artsy and creative or intellectually curious enough to pursue knowledge for its own sake. Instead, we'll have, as Paul Brower noted, people with hobbies and others with pathologies -- primarily substance abuse.  The singular alternative to all that is some form of mandatory social engagement.  In the past, the military draft served that purpose.  What would work today is ????

The average person absolutely would be artsy and creative and intellectually curious if the world allowed for it, but the overriding demand for profitability in all human endeavors precludes it. Those social pathologies (and I say this as a victim of it myself) overwhelmingly stem from feelings of social uselessness, which are grossly exacerbated by bourgeois class society.

I think I mostly agree with Einzige's statement.

You must limit who you associate with to a narrow few, because I know many people unable to even retire properly.  Half just watch TV and complain about this and that.  Others complain of boredom.

Half of those people would be much more fit and active if the world were genuinely accessible to them. Retirement in the sense of drawing on a limited pool of funds to fund limited activities socially fit for the elderly shouldn't exist.

Strange to say, mostly I agree with Einzige here. I agree with you too David, in that a lot of people just watch TV and complain. I watch too much, and complain too much, and write on this thing too much. I just think that we all have a lot of creative and intellectual abilities, even if we are older, but we are not encouraged to develop this, and the distractions of such things as TV and internet detract from this as well. Whether old or young, our society does not encourage culture, and our culture is vapid and uninspiring. So it's no wonder people don't participate in it very much. We are told that our life purpose is to do what makes money. And most of us don't get much of it anyway. For any time of life. That cuts off other activities like keeping fit. And as Alan Watts said, we are brainwashed to live for the future, but the future never comes, and so our present is debilitated.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
(02-02-2021, 09:54 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 05:07 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 04:17 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 01:25 PM)Einzige Wrote: The average person absolutely would be artsy and creative and intellectually curious if the world allowed for it, but the overriding demand for profitability in all human endeavors precludes it. Those social pathologies (and I say this as a victim of it myself) overwhelmingly stem from feelings of social uselessness, which are grossly exacerbated by bourgeois class society.

I think I mostly agree with Einzige's statement.

You must limit who you associate with to a narrow few, because I know many people unable to even retire properly.  Half just watch TV and complain about this and that.  Others complain of boredom.

Half of those people would be much more fit and active if the world were genuinely accessible to them. Retirement in the sense of drawing on a limited pool of funds to fund limited activities socially fit for the elderly shouldn't exist.

Strange to say, mostly I agree with Einzige here. I agree with you too David, in that a lot of people just watch TV and complain. I watch too much, and complain too much, and write on this thing too much. I just think that we all have a lot of creative and intellectual abilities, even if we are older, but we are not encouraged to develop this, and the distractions of such things as TV and internet detract from this as well. Whether old or young, our society does not encourage culture, and our culture is vapid and uninspiring. So it's no wonder people don't participate in it very much. We are told that our life purpose is to do what makes money. And most of us don't get much of it anyway. For any time of life. That cuts off other activities like keeping fit. And as Alan Watts said, we are brainwashed to live for the future, but the future never comes, and so our present is debilitated.

This is all on purpose. It's pretty much deliberate.
Reply
(02-02-2021, 09:54 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 05:07 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 04:17 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 01:25 PM)Einzige Wrote: The average person absolutely would be artsy and creative and intellectually curious if the world allowed for it, but the overriding demand for profitability in all human endeavors precludes it. Those social pathologies (and I say this as a victim of it myself) overwhelmingly stem from feelings of social uselessness, which are grossly exacerbated by bourgeois class society.

I think I mostly agree with Einzige's statement.

You must limit who you associate with to a narrow few, because I know many people unable to even retire properly.  Half just watch TV and complain about this and that.  Others complain of boredom.

Half of those people would be much more fit and active if the world were genuinely accessible to them. Retirement in the sense of drawing on a limited pool of funds to fund limited activities socially fit for the elderly shouldn't exist.

Strange to say, mostly I agree with Einzige here. I agree with you too David, in that a lot of people just watch TV and complain. I watch too much, and complain too much, and write on this thing too much. I just think that we all have a lot of creative and intellectual abilities, even if we are older, but we are not encouraged to develop this, and the distractions of such things as TV and internet detract from this as well. Whether old or young, our society does not encourage culture, and our culture is vapid and uninspiring. So it's no wonder people don't participate in it very much. We are told that our life purpose is to do what makes money. And most of us don't get much of it anyway. For any time of life. That cuts off other activities like keeping fit. And as Alan Watts said, we are brainwashed to live for the future, but the future never comes, and so our present is debilitated.

I must also concur, if I am to express my concurrence in a different way. After we are gone, the only record that most of us can have that anyone will care about (unless at a high level in something in no way creative, like entrepreneurship, athleticism or military service at a certain level -- and God forbid, criminality) is creativity, It is what we paint, write, tell as history, compose, perform, build, design, sculpt, etc. that people might remember. With the possible exception of some cars, most things mass produced will lose their worthiness of memory as they reach the end of their useful lives. 

I remember hearing some old man talking about his mother taking the stones culled from the field and making them into the exterior of the house. That was a creative activity, and it will be interesting after people forget about it. (I can't say more about it, as the fellow told me about this while I was taking the Census, and anything that anyone tells me is confidential. I really can say no more, including the location. Too bad. 

I heard some antique dealer lamenting that people buy cheap furniture that people can put together easily as TV or stereo stands or other such things rather than buying some antique furniture that will long outlast the particleboard trash. The only good thing that I can say about one such item that I have is that it is obsolete enough that when I am ever flush with cash I might buy some genuine antique furniture that I can repurpose as a TV or stereo stand. (I do watch PBS and some old movies and video, especially of nature). The antique furniture isn't all that expensive, but take that shoddy stuff and replace it every few years, and the money adds up over time.  

So go paint! Play some music on the piano, guitar, organ, etc. and record it! If you can do your own carpentry then do it. Got an old and interesting story to tell? Write it down!
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


Reply
Boy, it's fascinating that a bunch of soon-to-be retirees want to keep the capitalist gerontocracy whole doing away with retirement! But your solution would probably be some kind of work-retirement, which is grotesque.
Reply
(02-03-2021, 08:56 AM)Einzige Wrote: Boy, it's fascinating that a bunch of soon-to-be retirees want to keep the capitalist gerontocracy whole doing away with retirement! But your solution would probably be some kind of work-retirement, which is grotesque.

You miss the point.  The need for productive human effort is and has been declining and will continue to decline until it disappears.  John Maynard Keynes predicted 15 hour work weeks by now, but, if anything, we work more than we ever have.  Worse, we've been conditioned to value ourselves almost entirely by our productive efforts, not on the contents of our characters.  Saying 'nevermind' will change nothing -- at least not quickly.  If we are going to be a leisure society with enrichment opportunities at our fingertips, then we need to begin a process of revaluation away from work-centric toward self-centric living.  Assume that Boomers, Xers and most Millies are already lost causes.  That's OK, because the work-free life is still decades away.  Nonetheless, moving that way will be a saecular effort, so beginning now on slowly resetting our value structure makes sense.  The real question: how?
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
Reply
(02-03-2021, 11:56 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 08:56 AM)Einzige Wrote: Boy, it's fascinating that a bunch of soon-to-be retirees want to keep the capitalist gerontocracy whole doing away with retirement! But your solution would probably be some kind of work-retirement, which is grotesque.

You miss the point.  The need for productive human effort is and has been declining and will continue to decline until it disappears.  John Maynard Keynes predicted 15 hour work weeks by now, but, if anything, we work more than we ever have.  Worse, we've been conditioned to value ourselves almost entirely by our productive efforts, not on the contents of our characters.  Saying 'nevermind' will change nothing -- at least not quickly.  If we are going to be a leisure society with enrichment opportunities at our fingertips, then we need to begin a process of revaluation away from work-centric toward self-centric living.  Assume that Boomers, Xers and most Millies are already lost causes.  That's OK, because the work-free life is still decades away.  Nonetheless, moving that way will be a saecular effort, so beginning now on slowly resetting our value structure makes sense.  The real question: how?

It has to begin with getting rid of that class which promotes and requires for it's very existence as a class the work-centric society.
Reply
(02-03-2021, 12:05 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 11:56 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 08:56 AM)Einzige Wrote: Boy, it's fascinating that a bunch of soon-to-be retirees want to keep the capitalist gerontocracy whole doing away with retirement! But your solution would probably be some kind of work-retirement, which is grotesque.

You miss the point.  The need for productive human effort is and has been declining and will continue to decline until it disappears.  John Maynard Keynes predicted 15 hour work weeks by now, but, if anything, we work more than we ever have.  Worse, we've been conditioned to value ourselves almost entirely by our productive efforts, not on the contents of our characters.  Saying 'nevermind' will change nothing -- at least not quickly.  If we are going to be a leisure society with enrichment opportunities at our fingertips, then we need to begin a process of revaluation away from work-centric toward self-centric living.  Assume that Boomers, Xers and most Millies are already lost causes.  That's OK, because the work-free life is still decades away.  Nonetheless, moving that way will be a saecular effort, so beginning now on slowly resetting our value structure makes sense.  The real question: how?

It has to begin with getting rid of that class which promotes and requires for it's very existence as a class the work-centric society.

Mandating the impossible as the first step guarantees failure.  Let that happen organically.  Just understand that you may not live to see it to the end.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
Reply
(02-03-2021, 12:13 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 12:05 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 11:56 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 08:56 AM)Einzige Wrote: Boy, it's fascinating that a bunch of soon-to-be retirees want to keep the capitalist gerontocracy whole doing away with retirement! But your solution would probably be some kind of work-retirement, which is grotesque.

You miss the point.  The need for productive human effort is and has been declining and will continue to decline until it disappears.  John Maynard Keynes predicted 15 hour work weeks by now, but, if anything, we work more than we ever have.  Worse, we've been conditioned to value ourselves almost entirely by our productive efforts, not on the contents of our characters.  Saying 'nevermind' will change nothing -- at least not quickly.  If we are going to be a leisure society with enrichment opportunities at our fingertips, then we need to begin a process of revaluation away from work-centric toward self-centric living.  Assume that Boomers, Xers and most Millies are already lost causes.  That's OK, because the work-free life is still decades away.  Nonetheless, moving that way will be a saecular effort, so beginning now on slowly resetting our value structure makes sense.  The real question: how?

It has to begin with getting rid of that class which promotes and requires for it's very existence as a class the work-centric society.

Mandating the impossible as the first step guarantees failure.  Let that happen organically.  Just understand that you may not live to see it to the end.

Maynard James Keynes, by the way, was a staunch supporter of capitalists and capitalism. His thoughts on deficit financing were mostly designed to perpetuate it - stimulate demand, stimulate employment, perpetuate capitalist activity. He was not a friend of the worker; in fact, he called the worker "boorish" and literally called capitalists "exalted".
Reply
(02-03-2021, 08:56 AM)Einzige Wrote: Boy, it's fascinating that a bunch of soon-to-be retirees want to keep the capitalist gerontocracy whole doing away with retirement! But your solution would probably be some kind of work-retirement, which is grotesque.

Idleness is not a delight. People will try to find meaning in some sort of action or thought. Some people really do have a work ethic, and that is not a bad thing. About every legitimate achievement has some work, including self-development behind it. That has nothing to do with the economic order. I have gone to the beach, but simply going to the beach to idle away? If I need a little rest, maybe... but I am not going to do that for long. Idleness is deathly boring. I dislike either extreme of holding work in which I must wait for something to happen or a numbingly-repeating task.

The horror is not that one must work; the horror is that one cannot find meaning in one's work. Wearing oneself out to make someone already super-rich even more super-rich isn't only a Marxist stereotype of exploitation. It is a horror under any ideology, and one can tolerate that only as a heel. 

I am reminded of what Malcolm Gladwell says in Outliers: that at this point, any superlative achievement depends not so much upon raw talent one needs about 10,000 hours of preparation, ideally from childhood and in formative years, to achieve anything that isn't raw labor, mediocrity, quackery, rubbish, or Kitsch. People think that they can write the Great American Novel that everyone wants to read because someone like Ernest Hemingway could churn  out pages of interesting prose about like a short-order cook can turn out pancakes on a restaurant griddle. Hemingway had to discover the models to imitate and get the material, which means that he had to be an avid reader (that is part of the preparation) and hone his writing skills (he started as a journalist, and the sort of journalism that he did was not great writing. 

To be sure, much effort can never go into achieving anything truly distinguished. So it is with being a vehicle mechanic, a nurse's aide, a janitor, a fruit picker, or a traveling salesman. One can get better at what one does and do more things over time and even merit raises doing something necessary... but there is little room for imagination or creativity. Even so, if you happen to have a really-bad case of seasonal-affective disorder and must take the long drive to Florida to get away from dark, cold, stormy Michigan winters then at some point you will have a more vehement desire for some restaurant fare and a clean toilet than for listening to another Haydn string quartet. 

Gladwell has applied the 10,000 hour rule to athletics, art, music, academia, writing, acting, scientific research, law, medicine, architecture, and some super-skilled work (such as diamond-cutting or flying a jetliner). Anything that requires more than 10,000 hours of preparation is likely outside the range of human achievement. Anything that can be done easily at a high level has already been done. Many aspiring actors have gone to Hollywood expecting that they might become the new Jimmy Stewart or Katharine Hepburn only to find... well, as the non-dilettante creator Bert Bacharach puts it in his song "Do You Know the way to San Jose?"

"L. A. is a great big freeway
Put a hundred down and buy a car
In a week, maybe two they'll make you a star
Weeks turn into years
And all the stars that never were are parking cars and pumping gas"

Bacharach really is a genius, and one of the hallmarks of genius is that one takes simple and even banal reality but give it a tune with daring tricks of melody that Franz Schubert would have appreciated. (Schubert died about a century before Bacharach was born). The tricks took musical tricks that Schubert or Bacharach used are genius, if very different genius. Learning what is good and what isn't takes much of those 10,000 hours. True geniuses trash their many failures and let their successes speak for themselves. 

But back to a different aspect of music: performance. Gladwell relates that violin students at the Berlin Conservatory split neatly into those who have played about 2000 hours, 8000 hours, or 10,000 hours. Those with about 2000 hours of experience in playing a violin or activities related to it often become the sorts who teach violin in the equivalent of German K-12 education. The German educational system needs lots of them because lots of kids learn music in the land of Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms and are much of the identity that Germans want one to associate with Germany. With their limited expertise on the violin, they might learn the pedagogy of music... and what sort of person could tolerate listening to children playing out of tune on learner violins? (Those with less preparation on the violin go elsewhere to fill their vocational needs, like becoming vehicle mechanics,  nurses' aides, sales clerks, etc. -- or going into some other profession, and relying upon concerts or recordings for their connection with music because they don't know the violin well enough to get anything out of the Conservatory, so they never get in). Figuring that someone is about six years old at the earliest when taking up the violin and has been practicing and doing other music-related activities for about twelve years before entering the Conservatory, that is about six hundred hours a year, which means one's public school music classes (five hours a week) about fifty weeks a year, maybe an hour of lessons each week, and that is fairly easy to achieve. That is good for 4000 hours before age 18 if one does it consistently. Doing half that or doing that half as long (let us say starting at 12)  might get one able to pass through the Conservatory to be good enough to teach violin in school. 

8000 hours? That takes about twelve hours of music every week. Much of this will be performances in youth orchestras and at a certain stage listening to great quantities of recorded music or concerts. So you wear out several sets of Beethoven violin sonatas played by such people as Oistrakh, Stern, Kreisler, Menuhin, and others learning a few of the tricks of the... well, at that level it is an understatement to call it a "trade" before you enter the conservatory. That might be good enough to make a living teaching in the Conservatory, playing in a pit orchestra for the stage or movies, or playing in some small-city orchestra.

10,000 hours? Starting at an early age such requires the sheer drudgery of playing large numbers of scales and pedagogical exercises.  That is difficult enough for oneself, but just imagine what that is like for loved ones who must either listen to such dullness. Maybe Daddy is a traveling salesman who isn't around much, and Mommy is a school teacher -- perhaps a teacher of music at the German equivalent of K-12 education. 

It is worth remembering that such does not say as much about what one is doing as what one is not doing. Your contemporaries are going off on vacations to lie on the beaches of Ibiza, tooling around in cars, or dating... and you know the E-major scale on the violin for all its intricacies. Classical musicians get a rap for extreme naivete about much in life, including something so basic as romance. But that is what one must do to achieve music at the apex. That is for the high-level soloists and those who play violin for the major orchestras of Europe (as one's language skills allow. Classical musicians do learn languages.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


Reply
(02-03-2021, 12:16 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 12:13 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 12:05 PM)Einzige Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 11:56 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 08:56 AM)Einzige Wrote: Boy, it's fascinating that a bunch of soon-to-be retirees want to keep the capitalist gerontocracy whole doing away with retirement! But your solution would probably be some kind of work-retirement, which is grotesque.

You miss the point.  The need for productive human effort is and has been declining and will continue to decline until it disappears.  John Maynard Keynes predicted 15 hour work weeks by now, but, if anything, we work more than we ever have.  Worse, we've been conditioned to value ourselves almost entirely by our productive efforts, not on the contents of our characters.  Saying 'nevermind' will change nothing -- at least not quickly.  If we are going to be a leisure society with enrichment opportunities at our fingertips, then we need to begin a process of revaluation away from work-centric toward self-centric living.  Assume that Boomers, Xers and most Millies are already lost causes.  That's OK, because the work-free life is still decades away.  Nonetheless, moving that way will be a saecular effort, so beginning now on slowly resetting our value structure makes sense.  The real question: how?

It has to begin with getting rid of that class which promotes and requires for it's very existence as a class the work-centric society.

Mandating the impossible as the first step guarantees failure.  Let that happen organically.  Just understand that you may not live to see it to the end.

John Maynard James Keynes, by the way, was a staunch supporter of capitalists and capitalism. His thoughts on deficit financing were mostly designed to perpetuate it - stimulate demand, stimulate employment, perpetuate capitalist activity. He was not a friend of the worker; in fact, he called the worker "boorish" and literally called capitalists "exalted".

Keynes was brilliant but far from perfect.  Like many of his age, he favored eugenics. I can't agree with that or many other things he favored. but his insights in the field of economics have proven exceedingly robust.  Hate the man, if you wish.  Finding fault with his economics is a lot harder.

Note: I corrected his name -- see above
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
Reply
Agreed with Brower and David
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
Well. well, well. The Proud Boys may be breaking up.

The far-right Proud Boys group appears to be in chaos after evidence surfaced that its main leader, Enrique Tarrio, previously served as an FBI informant.
Tarrio's history with the FBI was reported by Reuters on January 28, several weeks after the riot at the US Capitol where members of the "male chauvinist" street gang played a prominent role.
Tarrio had been arrested shortly ahead of the insurrection on destruction-of-property charges.
Reuters obtained a transcript of a 2014 court proceeding in which Tarrio's lawyer acknowledged his role as an informant in multiple cases unrelated to the Proud Boys, a group that was founded in 2016.

Since the January 6 riot, the group has been thrown into disarray, with Tarrio's history as an informant — which he denied to Reuters — spreading paranoia.
The group is split into various regional groups, or chapters. The Daily Beast reported on Sunday that the revelation about Tarrio prompted chapters in Alabama, Oklahoma, and Indiana to distance themselves from the central leadership.
On Telegram, the encrypted app favored by the group after it was barred by other platforms, its main channel was recently renamed. This, say experts, indicates that many adherents no longer want to be associated with the Proud Boys name.
"The Telegram channel dropping the name, different chapters breaking off from the national leadership, it all speaks to a rift that's occurring in the Proud Boys," said Jared Holt, a fellow at the Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab to USA Today.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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