[split] Trump Trainwreck - Ongoing diary of betrayal and evil

[playwrite]

(12-22-2016, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-22-2016, 02:47 PM)taramarie Wrote: Omg guys give it a rest. It is Christmas. Can't you be civil for at least a few days?

 I thought we were remaining pretty civil myself. I haven't ripped into Playdude as much as I could rip into Playdude in real life. Have you ever wondered how long Playdude/Eric/PB would last here, if I was able to write better and type faster and much more into doing stuff like this competitively?

Typical tough words from a chickenhawk; you're not fooling anyone, Classic.

[playwrite]

(12-22-2016, 07:44 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(12-22-2016, 07:21 PM)Odin Wrote:

(12-22-2016, 02:47 PM)taramarie Wrote: Omg guys give it a rest. It is Christmas. Can't you be civil for at least a few days?

Classic is just a grown-up bully, sadly.

So are others especially who are attacking him. Whether blue or red or anything in-between that sort of behaviour in a place that is apparently against that sort of personal insult attitude is not acceptable. I could do a better job. Most people here are not snow white on this issue. Some though are worse than others. I can think of one who is responding to Classic with personal insults and he does it to most people here. Which I have taken to reporting. Not that that will do a damned thing. He needs to crack down on that if it is against the rules.

What a bunch of crap.  First, there's the false equivalence. Classic posts a set of videos of genocide suggesting the U.S. should pursue as military strategy - not him of course but kids from other families.  I point out his genocidal chickenhawk daydreams and you get all butthurt with me???
Asinine.  And then Classic responds with his racist little man fears, I point that out and you double down with calling for my head with the moderator.  You got a problem with me little filly, and you're not sure what it is, but you can feel it,  if under the surface.

You see, I've been to Kiwiland more than once and not just for pleasue.  It has one of the highest incarceration, alcoholic, suicide, unemployment, illiterate, you name it, rates among indigenous peoples on the planet.  It's flat out embarrasing to any Z-person with even just a tad of progressIve values.  BUT, not even a peep out of our resident kiwi here about any of that.  No, all we get from you is your sanctimonious hypocrisy and  shade throwing at a country that is on the other side of the planet from all the shxt going down in your own country.
I guess spending your time here trying to be Miss Manners gives you the excuse to sit on that big kiwi of yours and not do a Damon thing for you're own country.  Sad..  
Care to explain to others here who actually think you have some moral high ground to be calling out anyone on this forum?

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-28-2016, 02:56 AM)taramarie Wrote: I have  problem with your delivery. It is immature and beneath a man of your age. By the way you clearly have not traveled to other countries. Also America has the highest rate of incarceration. Oh btw I will keep reporting you because you always make things personal and viciously so. This has also been reported. Keep it up I will get you booted off here. A little maturity and self reflection never hurt anyone.

Now you are a little wiser as to why I have an issue with you.

Maybe he is a little wiser.  Maybe you have escalated a personal and vicious conflict of the type you are supposedly attempting to cool down.  

In physics and chemistry, there is the concept of entropy?  In every reaction, the net amount of randomness and disorder increases?  I'm starting to think that the principle of entropy can apply to chat room conversations.  If so, entropy might trump wisdom.  The more heat is added to a system, the more a net loss of wisdom is likely.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-28-2016, 03:31 AM)taramarie Wrote: So how would you have approached it? I know you would have thought the same thing. You are one of the very few like minded and one of the most reflective folks on this forum that I know of. I think you have a lot of wisdom to give on this topic. The reason I first started thinking on this is because i listened to the other side and started to self reflect due to it and see the flaws within myself as well as others. It concerns me because how are we to convince others that we have a genuine concern for inequality and other issues if we ourselves promote prejudice and hate? Just in a different manner.I have reflected on a lot of things and feel I have changed a lot. It helps to listen. How would you have approached it? Do you think it would cause others to consider what you have to say? All really depends on the character you are speaking to, I think. Also if they are ready for that kind of talk.

Hmm...

I assume I am not an irresistible force.  I assume there are a lot of immovable objects floating about.  Thus, if my goal were to move things, I'm sorta, kinda, gonna fail a lot.  In other words, folks are going to cling to their values, they are not going to be impressed by my values, thus going in with the idea that Reason and Truth shall triumph on a regular basis breeds unreasonable expectations.  The goal is not necessarily to 'win', but to hopefully make the hypothetical undecided and objective person reading these forums think. I wouldn't write solely to the person one is responding to, but write only if you have a wider message for the hypothetical third person reader.

[Semi off topic diversion]

While I have never served in any real world political or government role, I played Ambassador Joy Seven in a Federation Council role playing game.  Every month or so the players would be presented with some problem in the Star Trek universe, and would be asked to solve it by majority vote while staying in character as promoting the values of the planet one is representing.  Ambassador Joy was an android from the Planet Mudd, and had to promote and apply a variant of Asimov's Laws of Robotics to galactic level politics.  One of the lessons learned is that while an argument based on logic would convince the Vulcan ambassador, one needed to have a solid financial argument to convince the Ferengi.  Meanwhile, Joy's Asimov processor was telling her to preserve lives and not interfere with how other cultures wanted to develop. Each ambassador would be looking at the problem from a different perspective, striving for different goals, accustomed to using different approaches to solving problems.

Do you think humans have trouble respecting and honoring the values of other cultures?  No organic being can possibly out stubborn an Asimov Processor android.  Joy taught me an awful lot about values lock... from the inside.

But the flip side is knowing when to cut one's loses.  When it becomes clear that one is not going to convince enough other ambassadors to shift their values or disregard them on a given issue, do not burn one's bridges.  There will be another issue and another vote next month.  One should avoid ticking other ambassadors off such that they won't ever vote with you again.  At a certain point, no matter how loyal one is to one's values, one should make a brief conciliatory speech to set up a future hypothetical 'I told you so,' then let it go. Otherwise, the game doesn't stay fun.

In game, over a long period of time, the Council's political divide was between the progressive idealistic Roddenberry fans of the Original Series and Next Generation and the grittier more violent and pragmatic Berman fans of Deep Space 9. While the game masters did nothing to set this up, nothing to force it, over many years and many game masters the pattern stuck. It was entertaining yet disappointing to watch the make up of the players shift over the years away from Roddenberry towards Berman. One could watch the idealism and hope of Roddenberry Trek draining out of the game as the fan base lost Boomers and gained Xers.

I still miss the Federation Council sims.  We could go at it with marvelous intensity, but after the game master typed 'END SIM' we could laugh and admire how well we all stayed in character.  Well, mostly.  Quite often the players would select a Federation culture that most closely resembled their own personal values.  Sometimes things got intense and stayed intense.  

Alas, the Council games wound down, and I found myself posting in T4T forums instead.  Here the simulation never ends. Here, Joy's Asimov Processor is still whispering things like 'do not kill or injure, nor through inaction allow one to be killed or injured', 'do not interfere with the development of any society', or 'act within the law'. I understand that other Asimov Processors are programmed otherwise, and might be concerned with Ferengi profits or Klingon militarism. I'm not going to change other folk's programming. They are unlikely to change me.

When a science fiction author creates a fictional species and culture, part of the process is creating a history for the species that resulted in their values being what they are. In the Council games, no matter how much our characters disagreed, the players were aware of and respected the fictional histories that set up the values we were debating from. That is missing here. Too many folks come from a place where anyone who disagrees with one isn't thinking properly. From there, it is easy to get to dislike and conflict. We end up trying to modify other people's mannerisms and debating styles as well as their politics.

This to me is such a futile exercise that I seldom indulge.

[/Semi off topic diversion]

I guess it comes down to limiting one's degree of obsession. Some conflicts aren't worth pursuing. This is apt to include any conflict that presumes being able to change someone else into something they are not. One might eventually decide when it is not prudent or constructive to try.

I don't use an ignore list. I do tend to avoid interacting with certain people in certain ways. The likely result of repeatedly ramming one's forehead into an immovable object is to give the immovable object a headache. It doesn't do much for one's own forehead, either.

But here I am trying to change your approach. While I might pick my battles and set lesser expectations, perhaps some battles have to be fought and won? Perhaps simply standing aside and letting it happen is not the correct answer to neoliberalism?

I've been trying to tell the extreme partisans that extreme partisanship is a problem, without a lot of progress, but that's where I'm putting a lot of my energy. Everybody has to put energy somewhere. Just try to keep an eye out for places where the energy might be spent constructively. I definitely agree we have a problem here with excessive personal attacks. It is hard to address anything without the conversation rapidly shifting towards correcting the other poster's perceived personal flaws. Yes, this is a problem. Think on which poster you can work on to best reduce the problem.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-28-2016, 06:00 AM)taramarie Wrote: I am off to bed in a second so will read all of your post tomorrow when fully awake but just want to note the first part of your post that my intention is not to "win." My intention is solely to make people think as I also like to grow in that way too. Which is why I ask people here a lot of questions to get an idea on how others think and how they would respond. Like with you. Thank you for responding. I will respond back tomorrow in full.

I just hope I didn't go too far astray rambling...

[playwrite]

(12-28-2016, 03:09 AM)taramarie Wrote: "I guess spending your time here trying to be Miss Manners gives you the excuse to sit on that big kiwi of yours and not do a Damon thing for you're own country.  Sad..  
Care to explain to others here who actually think you have some moral high ground to be calling out anyone on this forum? "

You judge before you have the info. Very unwise. First...it is DAMNED thing...damon is a name. Two, I have mentioned the many things I have done to improve my country. I will not repeat. You just have to pay a little more attention if you are interested in that. I have mentioned it many times. Look up the student volunteer army if interested. 3. I am capable of self reflection. Something I have also mentioned quite recently. I have done a lot of it and it helps to notice what is sorely needed for me and others. So yes, I do have something to say as I live what I say to others now and I am capable of seeing flaws and correcting it. It is wise to act on what we wish to see happen with the world and it starts with correcting ourselves. I have the high ground because I have reflected on that. I do not attack others who are different any longer. But I do use smarter methods when I see injustice. Your method is destructive. Others here are guilty of that too and they will know that destructiveness if they are capable of self reflection too. It is however up to all of you to change that and think on it. Btw playwrite if you rip into me again in the same way you will just prove me right and i will again report you. One thing i cannot stand is that nasty nature. We do not need more hate. We need to build and that starts within ourselves.

Who cares about your own self reflection, your self described Mother Theresa stories, or how much you play with yourself???

I want to know what gives you the sense that you can judge people sitting in a cauldron of intense disagreement over issues in their country 6000 miles away from you.  What are your credentials???  Show us just one example of you dealing with people on an issue within your own country where there is heated disageement, where you are dealing with someone who has views that are diametrically opposed to your own.  And don't try to just tell us of your sainthood, instead give us an actual website and point out your flawless behavior in the face of viewpoints that you find digusting.  And be prepared to verify that identity by having that saintly poster give a big shoutout to this forum.

If you can't provide such a link, or tell us you never had such differences with anyone, then you are just a fraud, a malicious sanctimonious fraud getting off on other people's anxiety and misery while ensconced safely on the other side of the planet. Pathetic. Get off your kiwi butt and actually go do something with your life.

[pbrower2a]

(12-28-2016, 11:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-28-2016, 07:00 PM)taramarie Wrote: By the way, Eric if you can prove that it does work I can consider that too. I am interested in what strategy works best is all and I am trying to find it. I am merely observing you guys and seeing that conversation does not seem to go anywhere.

In my opinion, results work/speak the best. The problem with results  is that results take time. Who has the time/patience to wait for results? Progressives don't have time, progressives have upcoming elections to win and their political powers to defend as much as possible. The conversations as you say may not seem to go anywhere but the conversations do eventually get results over time. I've seen results over a ten year period that you haven't seen. Eric already lost the war on all the fronts that really matter to most Americans. Eric won a few battles that didn't matter all that much as far as the greater scheme of things.

And what will be the results when people of unbridled selfishness and rapaciousness, contempt for the intellect, and disdain for any political opinions incompatible with theirs, get full power? I see no virtue in the inchoate ruling elite of America -- only vice.

...We progressives are now limited to control of large cities and very few states in which we have any meaningful power. Yes, the Hard Right can see the long term -- themselves enshrined as masters forever (never mind that it ends as in 1789 in France or 1917 in Russia) and the rest of Humanity obliged to suffer with pretended glee. In that dreadful world the common man is fully accountable to people accountable to none.

A little hint: I tried understanding why the Roman Empire fell, and I noticed that the barbarians finally discovered the weakness of the system. The barbarians told the serfs of Rome something like this:

"Show us where your masters keep the treasure and hide their daughters, and we will free you of your masters and let you take the land to which you are bonded."

For most people of the time, the fall of the Roman system was a genuine liberation from economic and political oppression. Just imagine how easy it would be for barbarians circa 2300 AD to destroy such a nasty system. They take the precious metals, the jewels, the Old Master paintings, and the fine horses; they take the pretty princesses as their own, they kill off the rest of the ruling elite, and they give the proles their freedom.  That is how Nazi Germany would have died circa 2230 AD had it taken over the West.

There is a better ending -- the end of your new Gilded Age, most likely in an economic meltdown that will resemble the three years beginning in September 1929.  Yes, it will be rough, but we Americans came out of that one better for the struggle and for having to experiment with Big Government accountable to the people. White America needs to recognize the value of fair play and the creative, imaginative, well-honed mind. At that, middle-class blacks, Asians, and Hispanics are ahead of most white people.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-29-2016, 12:20 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(12-28-2016, 11:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-28-2016, 07:00 PM)taramarie Wrote: By the way, Eric if you can prove that it does work I can consider that too. I am interested in what strategy works best is all and I am trying to find it. I am merely observing you guys and seeing that conversation does not seem to go anywhere.

In my opinion, results work/speak the best. The problem with results  is that results take time. Who has the time/patience to wait for results? Progressives don't have time, progressives have upcoming elections to win and their political powers to defend as much as possible. The conversations as you say may not seem to go anywhere but the conversations do eventually get results over time. I've seen results over a ten year period that you haven't seen. Eric already lost the war on all the fronts that really matter to most Americans. Eric won a few battles that didn't matter all that much as far as the greater scheme of things.

I am curious about this. Could you give a few examples?

The only way I see that works is teaching to the young.

I have the ability to compare what it was like to post ten years ago to what it's like to post today. I'm familiar with the environments and the changes that have occurred in the environment over a ten year span. Honey, posting today is nothing like it was ten years ago. Mind control was more popular on the left ten years ago.

What's different between us? We have an obvious age difference. We have an obvious cultural difference. We have biological differences and income differences and different priorities as well. We probably have to many differences to overcome and be able to relate to one another and view each other as equals.

[Eric the Green]

(12-28-2016, 11:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-28-2016, 07:00 PM)taramarie Wrote: By the way, Eric if you can prove that it does work I can consider that too. I am interested in what strategy works best is all and I am trying to find it. I am merely observing you guys and seeing that conversation does not seem to go anywhere.

In my opinion, results work/speak the best. The problem with results  is that results take time. Who has the time/patience to wait for results? Progressives don't have time, progressives have upcoming elections to win and their political powers to defend as much as possible. The conversations as you say may not seem to go anywhere but the conversations do eventually get results over time. I've seen results over a ten year period that you haven't seen. Eric already lost the war on all the fronts that really matter to most Americans. Eric won a few battles that didn't matter all that much as far as the greater scheme of things.

I do not see results too often in the sense of minds changed as a result of my posts, either mine or other minds. But it does occasionally happen. This forum can't be judged on how many minds are changed, or results in that sense. Right now, the civility of the forum seems OK, on the whole. It was better in the older period, and got worse a few years ago; that's my opinion.

Eric has lost the battle in the 2 most recent USA elections; Classic is right. But the 4T is not over by a long shot, and the battles will get more intense before it ends in 2028-29. The Left may be just getting warmed up, and it needs to get hot. I hope the resistance will be as stiff as possible to Classic Xer's side of things, led by Drumpf. I don't know what the results will be. I have astrology to suggest that things will turn out well by the end of the 4T, but well for whom, and at what price, and by who's definition? We will see if it works out well for most people, at a reasonable cost, and by my definition. If progressives win the "war," then it WILL work out well in all these says. If reactionaries like Classic Xer win the war instead, only the wealthy will benefit, and life on this planet will be in severe danger.

And I am very confident that only IF the progressives win, will progress resume and America prosper. It could not be clearer for those who know the facts, that the main threat to America comes from libertarian economics, and its allied attitudes of racism, militarism and conservative religious fundamentalism. It could not be clearer that libertarian economics has already failed badly, over and over again. It could not be clearer that folks like Classic Xer (not to mention ideologues like Galen) are deceived, and will not face this failure of their ideology.

Still, I think Obama had some victories, which no doubt could well be overturned again. Health insurance was improved for some people, at lower cost that it would have been otherwise. Rape of the biosphere for fossil fuels was at least slowed down through car mileage requirements. The recession was stopped from being a catastrophe. Gays can get married. Banks are re-regulated to stave off the next financial collapse. Much more needed to be done, that wasn't. Drumpf and his foolish Party may be able to reverse all these things, and more; and set us on a drastically backward course back to the 19th century age of robber barons and official state corruption; we'll see.