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Teacher,
To answer your question, some quotes:
Quote:“What is truth? For the multitude, that which it continually reads and hears.”
― Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West, Vol 2: Perspectives of World History
Quote:“The press today is an army with carefully organized weapons, the journalists its officers, the readers its soldiers. The reader neither knows nor is supposed to know the purposes for which he is used and the role he is to play.”
― Oswald Spengler
[/url]
Quote:“To-day we live so cowed under the bombardment of this intellectual artillery(the media) that hardly anyone can attain to the inward detachment that is required for a clear view of the monstrous drama. The will-to-power operating under a pure democratic disguise has finished off its masterpiece so well that the object's sense of freedom is actually flattered by the most thorough-going enslavement that has ever existed”
― [url=https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/88483.Oswald_Spengler]Oswald Spengler , The Decline of the West, Vol 2: Perspectives of World History
Quote:“Through money, democracy becomes its own destroyer, after money has destroyed intellect.”
― Oswald Spengler
I mention the press as well, because, as this page does a nice job of summarizing, to Spengler, money and democracy and the media are inseparable.
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(01-13-2017, 12:58 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Teacher,
To answer your question, some quotes:
Quote:“What is truth? For the multitude, that which it continually reads and hears.”
― Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West, Vol 2: Perspectives of World History
Quote:“The press today is an army with carefully organized weapons, the journalists its officers, the readers its soldiers. The reader neither knows nor is supposed to know the purposes for which he is used and the role he is to play.”
― Oswald Spengler
[/url]
Quote:“To-day we live so cowed under the bombardment of this intellectual artillery(the media) that hardly anyone can attain to the inward detachment that is required for a clear view of the monstrous drama. The will-to-power operating under a pure democratic disguise has finished off its masterpiece so well that the object's sense of freedom is actually flattered by the most thorough-going enslavement that has ever existed”
― [url=https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/88483.Oswald_Spengler]Oswald Spengler , The Decline of the West, Vol 2: Perspectives of World History
Quote:“Through money, democracy becomes its own destroyer, after money has destroyed intellect.”
― Oswald Spengler
I mention the press as well, because, as this page does a nice job of summarizing, to Spengler, money and democracy and the media are inseparable.
Will give it a good read. Unfortunately, the Reilly title is not available at any library in our countywide system. I could order it on Amazon, I suppose, but I'm into "free stuff" right now.
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(01-13-2017, 02:02 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (01-13-2017, 12:58 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Teacher,
To answer your question, some quotes:
Quote:“What is truth? For the multitude, that which it continually reads and hears.”
― Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West, Vol 2: Perspectives of World History
Quote:“The press today is an army with carefully organized weapons, the journalists its officers, the readers its soldiers. The reader neither knows nor is supposed to know the purposes for which he is used and the role he is to play.”
― Oswald Spengler
[/url]
Quote:“To-day we live so cowed under the bombardment of this intellectual artillery(the media) that hardly anyone can attain to the inward detachment that is required for a clear view of the monstrous drama. The will-to-power operating under a pure democratic disguise has finished off its masterpiece so well that the object's sense of freedom is actually flattered by the most thorough-going enslavement that has ever existed”
― [url=https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/88483.Oswald_Spengler]Oswald Spengler , The Decline of the West, Vol 2: Perspectives of World History
Quote:“Through money, democracy becomes its own destroyer, after money has destroyed intellect.”
― Oswald Spengler
I mention the press as well, because, as this page does a nice job of summarizing, to Spengler, money and democracy and the media are inseparable.
Will give it a good read. Unfortunately, the Reilly title is not available at any library in our countywide system. I could order it on Amazon, I suppose, but I'm into "free stuff" right now.
The Reilly thing can be found for free, here. It is, in the end, a little superficial if you're not already familiar with at least The Decline of the West. And that is absolutely worth shelling out a little bit of money for. I haven't gotten around to Man and Technics yet, so I can't make any recommendations there. The Hour of Decision is available for free as well, and has some interesting bits, but I think Stormfront (edit: looks like the two sites hosting a pdf on the first page are aryanism.net and amren.com, so, basically the same sorts of people) are the people hosting it so be on guard there (You can get the PDF straight from the Google search results page, but I wouldn't do it from work or something).
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(01-13-2017, 02:20 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: (01-13-2017, 02:02 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (01-13-2017, 12:58 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Teacher,
To answer your question, some quotes:
Quote:“What is truth? For the multitude, that which it continually reads and hears.”
― Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West, Vol 2: Perspectives of World History
Quote:“The press today is an army with carefully organized weapons, the journalists its officers, the readers its soldiers. The reader neither knows nor is supposed to know the purposes for which he is used and the role he is to play.”
― Oswald Spengler
[/url]
Quote:“To-day we live so cowed under the bombardment of this intellectual artillery(the media) that hardly anyone can attain to the inward detachment that is required for a clear view of the monstrous drama. The will-to-power operating under a pure democratic disguise has finished off its masterpiece so well that the object's sense of freedom is actually flattered by the most thorough-going enslavement that has ever existed”
― [url=https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/88483.Oswald_Spengler]Oswald Spengler , The Decline of the West, Vol 2: Perspectives of World History
Quote:“Through money, democracy becomes its own destroyer, after money has destroyed intellect.”
― Oswald Spengler
I mention the press as well, because, as this page does a nice job of summarizing, to Spengler, money and democracy and the media are inseparable.
Will give it a good read. Unfortunately, the Reilly title is not available at any library in our countywide system. I could order it on Amazon, I suppose, but I'm into "free stuff" right now.
The Reilly thing can be found for free, here. It is, in the end, a little superficial if you're not already familiar with at least The Decline of the West. And that is absolutely worth shelling out a little bit of money for. I haven't gotten around to Man and Technics yet, so I can't make any recommendations there. The Hour of Decision is available for free as well, and has some interesting bits, but I think Stormfront (edit: looks like the two sites hosting a pdf on the first page are aryanism.net and amren.com, so, basically the same sorts of people) are the people hosting it so be on guard there (You can get the PDF straight from the Google search results page, but I wouldn't do it from work or something).
Thanks for the link. And as for your caveats, consider me so advised.
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Apropos of Reilly's segment on the present period (written in the early 90s), here is an interesting take on the period from the fall of the Soviet Union to the present day.
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01-13-2017, 05:35 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2017, 05:48 PM by SomeGuy.)
(01-13-2017, 05:07 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (01-13-2017, 03:32 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Apropos of Reilly's segment on the present period (written in the early 90s), here is an interesting take on the period from the fall of the Soviet Union to the present day.
And yet, you say you voted for the race baiter who poured his Birther toxin into the body politic.
WTF!
I do say that, because I did, and I have already explained my reasons for doing so in this and other threads. I also have the cool superpower of being able and willing to appreciate and find points of agreement in things that I have read and don't agree with 100%.
Now, isn't it time for you to have another Red Dawn marathon at home? 
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(01-13-2017, 11:28 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (01-13-2017, 11:04 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: Quote:I hate to admit it--contrary to that last optimistic bone in my body--but you may be right that "the vast majority doesn't give a shit," that "they don't want to be informed, they want to be entertained." Neil Postman, in his prescient 1985 book Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business, predicted that American society was much closer to manifesting the dystopia of Huxley's Brave New World than that depicted in Orwell's 1984. (We may yet succumb to both nightmarish visions, in that order.) If citizens of this country can't pull their heads out their "technological escapism" long enough to see what's going on around them, then they--we-- may one day cede democracy in a time of existential crisis to some kind of totalitarianism.
I came across this televised interview of former Supreme Court Justice Souter, commenting in stark terms about the danger of America's 'pervasive civic ignorance.' About four minutes in, he issues an apocalyptic warning about where our civic ignorance--and lack of civic engagement--may take us as a country. Chilling...
I have Neil Postman's book on my list of books/authors to acquire, but in the meantime John J. Reilly predicted something similar in Spengler's Future. We may simply be passing out of the age of the Republic and into the era of bread and circuses for the masses.
Another excellent book in a similar vein is Daniel J Boorstin's The Image: A Guide to Pseudo-Events in America. A summary of it I have cribbed from amazon.com:
First published in 1962, this wonderfully provocative book introduced the notion of “pseudo-events”—events such as press conferences and presidential debates, which are manufactured solely in order to be reported—and the contemporary definition of celebrity as “a person who is known for his well-knownness.” Since then Daniel J. Boorstin’s prophetic vision of an America inundated by its own illusions has become an essential resource for any reader who wants to distinguish the manifold deceptions of our culture from its few enduring truths.
The preponderance of "pseudo-events" in our body politic explains why--for the first time in my life--I passed on the presidential debates: there are plenty of print and online sources outlining the policy proposals and voting records of the candidates. If I want know what the candidates said in those televised farces (not really debates at all, just free-for-alls where the candidates talk over one another), I'll read the transcript the next day. And that's bad enough...
I quit watching the presidential debates years ago because I made this exact realization, there was nothing to be learned watching them. I suspect the last truly genuine presidential debates were the 1992 ones.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(01-13-2017, 11:40 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: Well, strictly speaking we have a little less than a century Caesarism/Civilization/The Universal State to actually congeal, if we go by the Spengler/Toynbee type model of things (Yes, I am aware that their conclusions are not identical, but they both have their Time of Trouble/Modern period starting around the French Revolution and lasting about 300ish years, or a Mega-Saeculum, if you will). According to Spengler (and his interpreters like Reilly) this period should be one of rising partisan conflict, the role of Money (and its handmaiden the Press), the growth of the great cities at the expense of the rural regions (where a Culture resides), escalating ethnic diversity, etc. So, you know, today.
On the other hand, this could all be nonsense. But it is worthwhile to point out that the periods of highest voter participation in American history had more to do with partisan wrangling and the spoils system than they did with an earnest citizenry engaging thoughtfully with the issues of the time. Even the American Revolution had more to do with an "irate, tireless minority" than it did a true change of opinion in the minds of the masses.
And according to the Spengler, at the end the Press is coming to fill a role akin that the Church played at the beginning, the arbiter of truth, controlling thought most especially by omission more than anything else.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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01-13-2017, 09:44 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2017, 09:44 PM by SomeGuy.)
(01-13-2017, 09:27 PM)Odin Wrote: (01-13-2017, 11:28 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (01-13-2017, 11:04 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: Quote:I hate to admit it--contrary to that last optimistic bone in my body--but you may be right that "the vast majority doesn't give a shit," that "they don't want to be informed, they want to be entertained." Neil Postman, in his prescient 1985 book Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business, predicted that American society was much closer to manifesting the dystopia of Huxley's Brave New World than that depicted in Orwell's 1984. (We may yet succumb to both nightmarish visions, in that order.) If citizens of this country can't pull their heads out their "technological escapism" long enough to see what's going on around them, then they--we-- may one day cede democracy in a time of existential crisis to some kind of totalitarianism.
I came across this televised interview of former Supreme Court Justice Souter, commenting in stark terms about the danger of America's 'pervasive civic ignorance.' About four minutes in, he issues an apocalyptic warning about where our civic ignorance--and lack of civic engagement--may take us as a country. Chilling...
I have Neil Postman's book on my list of books/authors to acquire, but in the meantime John J. Reilly predicted something similar in Spengler's Future. We may simply be passing out of the age of the Republic and into the era of bread and circuses for the masses.
Another excellent book in a similar vein is Daniel J Boorstin's The Image: A Guide to Pseudo-Events in America. A summary of it I have cribbed from amazon.com:
First published in 1962, this wonderfully provocative book introduced the notion of “pseudo-events”—events such as press conferences and presidential debates, which are manufactured solely in order to be reported—and the contemporary definition of celebrity as “a person who is known for his well-knownness.” Since then Daniel J. Boorstin’s prophetic vision of an America inundated by its own illusions has become an essential resource for any reader who wants to distinguish the manifold deceptions of our culture from its few enduring truths.
The preponderance of "pseudo-events" in our body politic explains why--for the first time in my life--I passed on the presidential debates: there are plenty of print and online sources outlining the policy proposals and voting records of the candidates. If I want know what the candidates said in those televised farces (not really debates at all, just free-for-alls where the candidates talk over one another), I'll read the transcript the next day. And that's bad enough...
I quit watching the presidential debates years ago because I made this exact realization, there was nothing to be learned watching them. I suspect the last truly genuine presidential debates were the 1992 ones.
I dunno, I watched the last two cycles of Republican debates with my friends/Dad (respectively), if only because they made us laugh and cringe in equal measures.
Quote:And according to the Spengler, at the end the Press is coming to fill a role akin that the Church played at the beginning, the arbiter of truth, controlling thought most especially by omission more than anything else
Carefuly, Odin, pretty soon you'll start calling it the Cathedral and then your membership in the Movement (always provisional because of your pudgy, pasty, penis-person-of-poweredness) will be revoked for sure!
But, yeah, we're well on our way. Of course, according to Toynbee AND Spengler, the true Universal Church/Second Religiosity won't be for a while yet, long AFTER the Universal State/Civilization-Caesarism is under way.
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Guys could you try to cool it a little, and try to avoid personal attacks
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(01-13-2017, 09:56 PM)Dan Wrote: Guys could you try to cool it a little, and try to avoid personal attacks
Under the assumption that I am one of the people being warned, could you point out what specific posts were objectionable? Not disputing your judgement, simply curious where the lines were crossed.
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(01-13-2017, 03:32 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Apropos of Reilly's segment on the present period (written in the early 90s), here is an interesting take on the period from the fall of the Soviet Union to the present day.
I read his excellent book The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism a few years ago , and recently ran across the article you referenced here. (Bookmarked it for a second, closer reading.) I originally gave Bacevich a "listen" for no other reason than that he served in Vietnam and lost a son in the Iraq War. Bacevich displays a dispassionate view of war in general, and has rightly questioned where our military efforts in the Mideast have gotten us. I thought the article as a whole was a decent summary of what has transpired in American foreign policy since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Not sure how it dovetails with 4T theory exactly. (Not that it has to.) It's a useful historical perspective on its own merits. That's all I care about.
And, as an aside, I wish we had more military advisors like Bacevich in the Situation Room. Our presidents might be more circumspect before launching new wars.
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(01-14-2017, 11:38 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (01-13-2017, 03:32 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Apropos of Reilly's segment on the present period (written in the early 90s), here is an interesting take on the period from the fall of the Soviet Union to the present day.
I read his excellent book The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism a few years ago, and recently ran across the article you referenced here. (Bookmarked it for a second, closer reading.) I originally gave Bacevich a "listen" for no other reason than that he served in Vietnam and lost a son in the Iraq War. Bacevich displays a dispassionate view of war in general, and has rightly questioned where our military efforts in the Mideast have gotten us. I thought the article as a whole was a decent summary of what has transpired in American foreign policy since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Not sure how it dovetails with 4T theory exactly. (Not that it has to.) It's a useful historical perspective on its own merits. That's all I care about.
And, as an aside, I wish we had more military advisors like Bacevich in the Situation Room. Our presidents might be more circumspect before launching new wars.
Bacevich is generally an enjoyable read. I am pretty fond of the line-up at The American Conservative in general. National Interest has some good ones, but there is also a fair amount of bleed-over from the neocon/ National Review types of which I am less enthused.
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(01-13-2017, 10:05 PM)taramarie Wrote: (01-13-2017, 09:56 PM)Dan Wrote: Guys could you try to cool it a little, and try to avoid personal attacks
Your warnings do not work, Dan. They back off a bit then back at each others throats.
Who's "they"?
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(01-14-2017, 11:48 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: (01-14-2017, 11:38 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (01-13-2017, 03:32 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Apropos of Reilly's segment on the present period (written in the early 90s), here is an interesting take on the period from the fall of the Soviet Union to the present day.
I read his excellent book The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism a few years ago, and recently ran across the article you referenced here. (Bookmarked it for a second, closer reading.) I originally gave Bacevich a "listen" for no other reason than that he served in Vietnam and lost a son in the Iraq War. Bacevich displays a dispassionate view of war in general, and has rightly questioned where our military efforts in the Mideast have gotten us. I thought the article as a whole was a decent summary of what has transpired in American foreign policy since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Not sure how it dovetails with 4T theory exactly. (Not that it has to.) It's a useful historical perspective on its own merits. That's all I care about.
And, as an aside, I wish we had more military advisors like Bacevich in the Situation Room. Our presidents might be more circumspect before launching new wars.
Bacevich is generally an enjoyable read. I am pretty fond of the line-up at The American Conservative in general. National Interest has some good ones, but there is also a fair amount of bleed-over from the neocon/National Review types of which I am less enthused.
And speaking of the "End of History," I wonder if it's worth the effort to read the latest book by Fukuyama, Political Order and Political Decay: From the Industrial Revolution to the Globalization of Democracy. Yes, he famously "laid an egg," but he is still considered a leading intellectual on political history. Has anyone on this forum read any of his work lately?
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(01-14-2017, 11:57 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (01-14-2017, 11:48 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: (01-14-2017, 11:38 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (01-13-2017, 03:32 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Apropos of Reilly's segment on the present period (written in the early 90s), here is an interesting take on the period from the fall of the Soviet Union to the present day.
I read his excellent book The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism a few years ago, and recently ran across the article you referenced here. (Bookmarked it for a second, closer reading.) I originally gave Bacevich a "listen" for no other reason than that he served in Vietnam and lost a son in the Iraq War. Bacevich displays a dispassionate view of war in general, and has rightly questioned where our military efforts in the Mideast have gotten us. I thought the article as a whole was a decent summary of what has transpired in American foreign policy since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Not sure how it dovetails with 4T theory exactly. (Not that it has to.) It's a useful historical perspective on its own merits. That's all I care about.
And, as an aside, I wish we had more military advisors like Bacevich in the Situation Room. Our presidents might be more circumspect before launching new wars.
Bacevich is generally an enjoyable read. I am pretty fond of the line-up at The American Conservative in general. National Interest has some good ones, but there is also a fair amount of bleed-over from the neocon/National Review types of which I am less enthused.
And speaking of the "End of History," I wonder if it's worth the effort to read the latest book by Fukuyama, Political Order and Political Decay: From the Industrial Revolution to the Globalization of Democracy. Yes, he famously "laid an egg," but he is still considered a leading intellectual on political history. Has anyone on this forum read any of his work lately?
I read "The End of History and the Last Man" a long time ago, but nothing recently. He's on my list (along with over 1200 other people), mainly for his "The Origins of Political Order" and the work you referenced above, but right now I am re-reading Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers", and after that I still have Fernand Braudel's "A History of Civilizations", Winston Churchill's "A History of the English-Speaking Peoples", HG Wells' "An Outline of History", Robert Putnam's "Bowling Alone", Vladimir Sorokin's "Day of the Oprichnik", and several others already on my slush pile at home, so he's not getting on there anytime soon.
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(01-14-2017, 12:06 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: (01-14-2017, 11:57 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (01-14-2017, 11:48 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: (01-14-2017, 11:38 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (01-13-2017, 03:32 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Apropos of Reilly's segment on the present period (written in the early 90s), here is an interesting take on the period from the fall of the Soviet Union to the present day.
I read his excellent book The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism a few years ago, and recently ran across the article you referenced here. (Bookmarked it for a second, closer reading.) I originally gave Bacevich a "listen" for no other reason than that he served in Vietnam and lost a son in the Iraq War. Bacevich displays a dispassionate view of war in general, and has rightly questioned where our military efforts in the Mideast have gotten us. I thought the article as a whole was a decent summary of what has transpired in American foreign policy since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Not sure how it dovetails with 4T theory exactly. (Not that it has to.) It's a useful historical perspective on its own merits. That's all I care about.
And, as an aside, I wish we had more military advisors like Bacevich in the Situation Room. Our presidents might be more circumspect before launching new wars.
Bacevich is generally an enjoyable read. I am pretty fond of the line-up at The American Conservative in general. National Interest has some good ones, but there is also a fair amount of bleed-over from the neocon/National Review types of which I am less enthused.
And speaking of the "End of History," I wonder if it's worth the effort to read the latest book by Fukuyama, Political Order and Political Decay: From the Industrial Revolution to the Globalization of Democracy. Yes, he famously "laid an egg," but he is still considered a leading intellectual on political history. Has anyone on this forum read any of his work lately?
I read "The End of History and the Last Man" a long time ago, but nothing recently. He's on my list (along with over 1200 other people), mainly for his "The Origins of Political Order" and the work you referenced above, but right now I am re-reading Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers", and after that I still have Fernand Braudel's "A History of Civilizations", Winston Churchill's "A History of the English-Speaking Peoples", HG Wells' "An Outline of History", Robert Putnam's "Bowling Alone", Vladimir Sorokin's "Day of the Oprichnik", and several others already on my slush pile at home, so he's not getting on there anytime soon.
Kudos, man. (Cue stale cinematic and cultural reference.) I'd have to be "Good Will Hunting" to keep up that pace.
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Totally unrelated to this topic...but has anyone begun a thread about "fake news"? And if not, where on the forum should it be posted, in your opinion?
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(01-14-2017, 12:42 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: Totally unrelated to this topic...but has anyone begun a thread about "fake news"? And if not, where on the forum should it be posted, in your opinion?
I started a 'Big Lies" thread. Not the same, but related. Fake news is quite likely deserving of its own thread.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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(01-14-2017, 12:58 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (01-14-2017, 12:42 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: Totally unrelated to this topic...but has anyone begun a thread about "fake news"? And if not, where on the forum should it be posted, in your opinion?
I started a 'Big Lies" thread. Not the same, but related. Fake news is quite likely deserving of its own thread.
There is some overlap, to be sure. But I do think that "fake news" merits its own thread, as the phrase has entered the American lexicon in a big way, being leveled almost as an epithet to disarm the political opposition.
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