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There are some posters here who are just in a complete froth about the notion of a strong government.
I could have been one of them, had I continued on the path of "hate government no matter what."
To be fair about such sentiments, when Reagan said "government is the problem" he was looking at a government that had taken the New Deal and subsequently the Great Society way past what government should have been. It was liberal bloat. That was then, this is now.
We are in a 4th turning. The Civics are going to make government great again.
The Xers and Boomers who cling to the 3T are going to hate it.
I think what we are seeing is the Red Boomers and Red Xers are really acting out now because everyone knows the real Regeneracy is coming. The real Regeneracy will make government OK again. It will be considered an extremist belief to hate government. This will be especially true once we complete the 4T and start the 1T.
So, all haters here, continue your hate fest. Burn yourselves out really well. This is your last chance to espouse 3T thinking.
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(03-14-2017, 10:55 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: There are some posters here who are just in a complete froth about the notion of a strong government.
I could have been one of them, had I continued on the path of "hate government no matter what."
To be fair about such sentiments, when Reagan said "government is the problem" he was looking at a government that had taken the New Deal and subsequently the Great Society way past what government should have been. It was liberal bloat. That was then, this is now.
We are in a 4th turning. The Civics are going to make government great again.
The Xers and Boomers who cling to the 3T are going to hate it.
I think what we are seeing is the Red Boomers and Red Xers are really acting out now because everyone knows the real Regeneracy is coming. The real Regeneracy will make government OK again. It will be considered an extremist belief to hate government. This will be especially true once we complete the 4T and start the 1T.
So, all haters here, continue your hate fest. Burn yourselves out really well. This is your last chance to espouse 3T thinking.
I'm from the old northern progressive tradition that sees government in a free democratic society not as some oppressive force, but as the instrument of the popular will and as the protector of the people against oligarchy and aristocracy. Historically it's always been oligarchs (whether landed aristocrats or capitalist plutocrats) who have been the greatest enemies of government power because it is a threat to their ability to carve out their own private fiefdoms.
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03-14-2017, 05:28 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2017, 05:28 PM by SomeGuy.)
The exact same northern tradition that burned heretics at the stake, too. 
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(03-14-2017, 05:28 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: The exact same northern tradition that burned heretics at the stake, too.
And you contend that is what advocates of stronger social government want today?
NO, the tradition that is most likely to adopt this policy here in the USA is the religious right, especially if aligned with the white supremacists. In case you don't recall, these groups supported Mr. Drump.
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(03-14-2017, 05:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (03-14-2017, 05:28 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: The exact same northern tradition that burned heretics at the stake, too.
And you contend that is what advocates of stronger social government want today?
NO, the tradition that is most likely to adopt this policy here in the USA is the religious right, especially if aligned with the white supremacists. In case you don't recall, these groups supported Mr. Drump.
I'm assuming that was supposed to be some kind subtle jab insinuating that concerns over Russian influence are a modern day witch hunt...
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Quote:I'm assuming that was supposed to be some kind subtle jab insinuating that concerns over Russian influence are a modern day witch hunt...
No, no, that was a not-so-subtle jab over campus hysterics, which we have discussed recently.
I am disappointed in you, Odin. I expect Eric to be stupid, you I just hold to be tragically misguided. You're not helping my case right now. 
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(03-14-2017, 05:51 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Quote:I'm assuming that was supposed to be some kind subtle jab insinuating that concerns over Russian influence are a modern day witch hunt...
No, no, that was a not-so-subtle jab over campus hysterics, which we have discussed recently.
I am disappointed in you, Odin. I expect Eric to be stupid, you I just hold to be tragically misguided. You're not helping my case right now.
Sorry dude, Odin is worse than tragically misguided. Unfortunately he hasn't demonstrated himself to be stupid yet either. Impervious to facts that don't conform to his world view? Certainly but that just means he's more or less normal. I don't often agree with Mr. Bob but he's right in that people don't change their values unless they are harshly shown that they are not working.
--
Back on topic.
I would say that to make Government great again you have to make the federal government smaller again. The federal government has a really difficult time being all things to all people--so it should concentrate on the enumerated powers and humans rights as well as defense and turn other issues over to the states.
Welfare should be a state issue. Minimum wage should be a state issue. Healthcare should be a state issue. What the states don't want to do or can't do well should be left to cities and counties to handle.
Like it or not the petrodollar will eventually end and the largess of the federal government will implode in on itself.
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Quote:Sorry dude, Odin is worse than tragically misguided. Unfortunately he hasn't demonstrated himself to be stupid yet either. Impervious to facts that don't conform to his world view? Certainly but that just means he's more or less normal. I don't often agree with Mr. Bob but he's right in that people don't change their values unless they are harshly shown that they are not working.
I don't blame him too much. He's still young, it's a fairly widely peddled and up until recently quite successful belief system, and like a lot of people from the sticks he's too insecure of his social status to buck it right now. He's not stupid, he reads, and it's much easier to belief in some of the more egregiously stupid progressive shibboleths when you're not getting your nose rubbed in their contradictions on a daily basis.
There's hope for him yet.
Quote:Like it or not the petrodollar will eventually end and the largess of the federal government will implode in on itself.
Yeah, I don't think a lot of progressives have grappled with what the end of imperium, "white privilege", and a shift to sustainability will actually mean in material terms, particularly for them.
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03-14-2017, 08:24 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2017, 08:24 PM by Eric the Green.)
I don't think there's much hope for progressives to turn into reactionaries like kinser did, SomeGuy. If there's any hope, it's that reactionaries like you will become progressives. At least, if you grow a brain.
Yes, I think progressives understand that white vs. colored is not a zero sum game, because what's good for some people doesn't have to hurt others, in an economy in which all have good opportunities. Which is the kind of economy that progressives create and conservatives destroy so that a few rich people can benefit instead. Yes, I think that a shift to sustainability will be better than our food and water sources being destroyed, our cities flooded and our wildlife killed, and that economy depends on ecology. We understand that a shift to new industries creates jobs, while hanging on to old dirty ones for the convenience of a few CEOs does not. Yes, progressives understand that maintaining an expensive MIC, just so America can be number one, siphons off the real prosperity could be created by reining in this waste. Yes, progressives understand that world order is maintained by multi-lateral agreements and not by hegemonic empires.
Too bad you don't seem to understand these things, and call people "stupid" or "misguided" who do.
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Struck a nerve, did I?
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(03-14-2017, 08:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't think there's much hope for progressives to turn into reactionaries like kinser did, SomeGuy. If there's any hope, it's that reactionaries like you will become progressives. At least, if you grow a brain.
<snip>
Too bad you don't seem to understand these things, and call people "stupid" or "misguided" who do.
Uh, why did you essentially call Some Guy, "stupid" basically? "...,if you grow a brain", usually means stupid/dumb/small minded/etc.
---Value Added 
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(03-14-2017, 07:23 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Quote:Sorry dude, Odin is worse than tragically misguided. Unfortunately he hasn't demonstrated himself to be stupid yet either. Impervious to facts that don't conform to his world view? Certainly but that just means he's more or less normal. I don't often agree with Mr. Bob but he's right in that people don't change their values unless they are harshly shown that they are not working.
I don't blame him too much. He's still young, it's a fairly widely peddled and up until recently quite successful belief system, and like a lot of people from the sticks he's too insecure of his social status to buck it right now. He's not stupid, he reads, and it's much easier to belief in some of the more egregiously stupid progressive shibboleths when you're not getting your nose rubbed in their contradictions on a daily basis.
There's hope for him yet.
Quote:Like it or not the petrodollar will eventually end and the largess of the federal government will implode in on itself.
Yeah, I don't think a lot of progressives have grappled with what the end of imperium, "white privilege", and a shift to sustainability will actually mean in material terms, particularly for them.
1, I welcome the end of empire. The imperial project is a black hole that sucks everything worthwhile to oblivion.
2. "White privilege" is a fiction held by snowflakes that all white people are "privileged" . This concept is silly and prone to open a can of worms.
3. Sustainability will be painful, but less so than stopping behaviors which are unsustainable. Things that are unsustainable, at some point stop.
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(03-14-2017, 07:23 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Quote:Sorry dude, Odin is worse than tragically misguided. Unfortunately he hasn't demonstrated himself to be stupid yet either. Impervious to facts that don't conform to his world view? Certainly but that just means he's more or less normal. I don't often agree with Mr. Bob but he's right in that people don't change their values unless they are harshly shown that they are not working.
I don't blame him too much. He's still young, it's a fairly widely peddled and up until recently quite successful belief system, and like a lot of people from the sticks he's too insecure of his social status to buck it right now. He's not stupid, he reads, and it's much easier to belief in some of the more egregiously stupid progressive shibboleths when you're not getting your nose rubbed in their contradictions on a daily basis.
There's hope for him yet.
He's 30 or pushing it. If IIRC he is an 86 cohort. There comes a point you have to put childish ideas away. But it could also be that he's not had the constant contradictions of his ideology rubbed in his face enough. Honestly I'm surprised life hasn't kicked the shit out him yet.
Quote:Quote:Like it or not the petrodollar will eventually end and the largess of the federal government will implode in on itself.
Yeah, I don't think a lot of progressives have grappled with what the end of imperium, "white privilege", and a shift to sustainability will actually mean in material terms, particularly for them.
[/quote]
They don't. Living sustaiably means that they are going to have to grow at least some of their food. I think that this is how many of the people stuck in suburbia will survive in the 1T. And we're not talking being all artisan and such. We're talking plowing up the lawn to grow veg to eat and sell.
If you don't garden I suggest starting.
As for "white privilege" that's bullshit. If anything being white is harder now since the Left over the course of the saeculum has reversed the flow of racism. The Boomers in particular seem to not understand that the way to stop being racist is to actually stop being racist.
(03-14-2017, 08:26 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Struck a nerve, did I?
I think you have. Eric is impervious to facts even when the contradictions of his belief system are rubbed in his face on a daily basis.
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(03-14-2017, 07:23 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Quote:Like it or not the petrodollar will eventually end and the largess of the federal government will implode in on itself.
Yeah, I don't think a lot of progressives have grappled with what the end of imperium, "white privilege", and a shift to sustainability will actually mean in material terms, particularly for them.
They haven't. Truth is they have this nasty tendency to think in linear trend lines that last forever. Those of us in the real world know better.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(03-14-2017, 10:55 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: There are some posters here who are just in a complete froth about the notion of a strong government.
I could have been one of them, had I continued on the path of "hate government no matter what."
To be fair about such sentiments, when Reagan said "government is the problem" he was looking at a government that had taken the New Deal and subsequently the Great Society way past what government should have been. It was liberal bloat. That was then, this is now.
We need government strong enough to protect the innocent and helpless and to enforce some modicum of fairness. Powerless government implies the power of local mobsters or feudal lords that can be as personally oppressive as any government.
Quote:We are in a 4th turning. The Civics are going to make government great again.
If Howe and Strauss are at all right in their characterization of Millennial adults, then such is so. The only alternative was for the current Crisis Era to have hit early and hard and to have ended quickly in apocalypse, with Generation X taking on part of the Civic role and Millennial adults shoved into an Adaptive role. The time in which such could happen (early part of the Double-Zero decade) is long past.
Millennial adults will not have much taste for Pie-in-the-Sky promises of fundamentalist preachers; they are too rational for that. They are not suckers for the extreme individualism of many X leaders. Millennial adults see plenty of problems, and they see government as the only means of solving them equitably and effectively.
As Boomers age into senility and death, Boomer roles in leadership will come to an end. They will leave a vacuum in political life, one that younger adults ordinarily fill. Millennial adults are the ones to fill the vacuum.
Quote:The Xers and Boomers who cling to the 3T are going to hate it.
I am a Boomer and I am sick of the depravity of 3T ways. Could anyone be more 3T than Donald Trump?
Quote:I think what we are seeing is the Red Boomers and Red Xers are really acting out now because everyone knows the real Regeneracy is coming. The real Regeneracy will make government OK again. It will be considered an extremist belief to hate government. This will be especially true once we complete the 4T and start the 1T.
We have elections and laws to keep government from becoming a master.
Quote:So, all haters here, continue your hate fest. Burn yourselves out really well. This is your last chance to espouse 3T thinking.
I certainly won't miss the bigots, fanatics, and shysters.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(03-14-2017, 09:03 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (03-14-2017, 08:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't think there's much hope for progressives to turn into reactionaries like kinser did, SomeGuy. If there's any hope, it's that reactionaries like you will become progressives. At least, if you grow a brain.
<snip>
Too bad you don't seem to understand these things, and call people "stupid" or "misguided" who do.
Uh, why did you essentially call Some Guy, "stupid" basically? "...,if you grow a brain", usually means stupid/dumb/small minded/etc.
Did you miss his name-calling of me?
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(03-14-2017, 08:26 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Struck a nerve, did I?
But unlikely to have stimulated any in you.
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(03-14-2017, 05:51 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Quote:I'm assuming that was supposed to be some kind subtle jab insinuating that concerns over Russian influence are a modern day witch hunt...
No, no, that was a not-so-subtle jab over campus hysterics, which we have discussed recently.
I am disappointed in you, Odin. I expect Eric to be stupid, you I just hold to be tragically misguided. You're not helping my case right now.
Well, some of the college campus stupidity is witch-hunt-like, too. Russia-gate was just the first thing that popped in my head at the moment.
And IMO I would consider a lot of the people supporting Alt-Right populists to be the ones who are tragically misguided. A lot of them identify completely valid issues, Muslim immigrants in Europe not assimilating into Western culture, the EU being technocratic and unaccountable, educated people in the major cities thinking everyone else are just dumb hicks, treating identity as something only minority groups are allowed to have, etc. But the Alt-Right uses all these issues to promote xenophobia and romantic nostalgia that does not lead to workable solutions.
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(03-15-2017, 04:27 AM)Galen Wrote: (03-14-2017, 07:23 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Quote:Like it or not the petrodollar will eventually end and the largess of the federal government will implode in on itself.
Yeah, I don't think a lot of progressives have grappled with what the end of imperium, "white privilege", and a shift to sustainability will actually mean in material terms, particularly for them.
They haven't. Truth is they have this nasty tendency to think in linear trend lines that last forever. Those of us in the real world know better.
Do you know what the next winning Powerball numbers are going to be, too? 
I understand perfectly well that linear trends don't last forever, but, as shown by how wrong futurists often are, making ideologically dogmatic statements abiut the future like " the largess of the federal government will implode in on itself" just sets you up to look like a fool.
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(03-15-2017, 07:12 AM)Odin Wrote: (03-15-2017, 04:27 AM)Galen Wrote: (03-14-2017, 07:23 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Quote:Like it or not the petrodollar will eventually end and the largess of the federal government will implode in on itself.
Yeah, I don't think a lot of progressives have grappled with what the end of imperium, "white privilege", and a shift to sustainability will actually mean in material terms, particularly for them.
They haven't. Truth is they have this nasty tendency to think in linear trend lines that last forever. Those of us in the real world know better.
Do you know what the next winning Powerball numbers are going to be, too?
I understand perfectly well that linear trends don't last forever, but, as shown by how wrong futurists often are, making ideologically dogmatic statements abiut the future like "the largess of the federal government will implode in on itself" just sets you up to look like a fool.
Says a person who was talking about the world inevitably becoming even smaller, more connected, and more urban.
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