Looking Toward The Next High

[TheNomad]

(06-01-2018, 04:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(05-31-2018, 10:57 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(05-31-2018, 07:41 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Perhaps we are experiencing an unusually mild 4T?

I've been saying this a lot.  The events of the Crisis IMO have happened.  We had wars, we had the economic theft, we had massive upheaval with families and individuals losing everything and moving in with grandparents, etc.  Some can't accept that it was "enough" to be the actual crisis.  I say it was just about enough and if they want more, let them have it but leave me out

Oh and earlier I told a very personal story of ONE family who essentially mirrors Grapes of Wrath scenario of the Great Depression with an extended family in a loaded vehicle traveling to parts unknown just hoping to survive.  Whether that actually happened to anyone posting here, I do not know.  But it really happened to a lot of people.  I've not called it GDII because I didn't want to be severe.  But the early 21st century was truly a time of destitution, humiliation and national upheaval.  I think we do not know the magnitude because media does not cover it.  We know there is currently a homeless epidemic.  But we never hear from the news WHY these people are homeless.  Most of them lost everything in the crash and fell down hard.  But no one talks about that.  And there are homeless camps just as their were in GDI.  Except they are not concentrated on the Washington Mall but scattered throughout every major city in America.

If someone brought them all together, the Mall would be quite full.

Or, for that matter, places already known to be grossly unsatisfying. They might be cheap places to live, but that's about the only virtue. The hick hometown that lost its industry, and you might be able to get a job cleaning motel rooms or checking out videos. If things go bad enough there might be farm labor.

This began before Donald Trump, and some of it relates to the de-industrialization of American society. The halcyon time for America was when anyone with a good work ethic and a little integrity could get industrial work that allowed one a middle-class income. People who wanted a little more out of life than eight hours of drudgery in the plant could get a high-school diploma and become a clerk or a college degree and be some sort of professional. College was cheap -- less expensive than a hobby such as modifying cars to make them more racy.

Now that the industrial jobs have vanished, we have more people competing for what is left. We have college degrees expensively obtained -- for doing jobs that used to require only a high-school education. If you live in the fewer places that have the well-paying jobs, the boom-towns (or now, urban areas like Silicon Valley or greater Washington DC) you pay exorbitant rent. Unless you are at the top of your game, the rent is so high that you might live just as well doing agricultural labor in the Midwest. Something is wrong.

Of course, Big Business has found that profit comes not so much from efficiency (although it demands such from workers just to keep costs down) as it does from being able to gouge the customer. Rent is obvious enough, and Donald Trump exemplifies the landlord. We are also seeing spikes in highway tolls, fuel, utilities. medical costs, health insurance... monopoly and near-monopoly with a captive market is the optimum for profit so long as one is willing to dispense with competition and the public sector.

I am  finding that the very things that have made me human are detriments where I am in this time and place. What is left? Maybe I can simply wallow in a collection of electronic entertainments.

To get along with the new America it helps to be stupid. Then you can be happy. Entertainment, advertising, politics, and most work seems made for morons.

All good sentiments.  Stupid is always happy.  But also the curse of everyone with a brain

I say wallow away into electronica.... I cannot stress enough how much these generational theories changed my life.  Because there is a time for everything.  When I realized that, I saw my friends and whatever being overwrought and thinking it just would never end (the downturning) but now I just don't care anymore.  I am where I am in the cycle, and it won't last forever.  I've learned to be OK with putting my head down and doing what needs to be done.

[TheNomad]

(05-31-2018, 10:00 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(05-31-2018, 07:41 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Perhaps we are experiencing an unusually mild 4T?

I thought such possible in the late 1990s, when the Crisis era could have been more a cultural phenomenon than one with potential for great ruin.

The extreme polarization in American political life, the intense inequality of economic results, and the utter ruthlessness of one side of the political spectrum suggest otherwise.

Remember: the weather before a severe blizzard can be freakishly balmy and gentle.  I have seen April blizzards that follow several days of temperatures around 70F. The disruptive April blizzard is still possible. A sharp cold wave overtakes some warm, humid weather, and the juiced air becomes the source of what can be the biggest snowstorm of the whole winter. That's Michigan.

You said... The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt. 

Isn't this shocking.  To me it just completely represents the Boomer culture-war. Because I truly believe a huge majority of those who voted for the current president or got him into office did so on a culture war against the other side and nothing more. They didn't want him so much as they did not want another non white bred liberal type or Progressive person. That's the destructive Behavior of Boomer culture wars. They would rather elect someone who lives in an alternate reality and is the opposite of what they don't want. Isn't that sick? 

[TheNomad]

(06-01-2018, 08:08 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(05-31-2018, 10:57 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(05-31-2018, 07:41 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Perhaps we are experiencing an unusually mild 4T?

I've been saying this a lot.  The events of the Crisis IMO have happened.  We had wars, we had the economic theft, we had massive upheaval with families and individuals losing everything and moving in with grandparents, etc.  Some can't accept that it was "enough" to be the actual crisis.  I say it was just about enough and if they want more, let them have it but leave me out

Oh and earlier I told a very personal story of ONE family who essentially mirrors Grapes of Wrath scenario of the Great Depression with an extended family in a loaded vehicle traveling to parts unknown just hoping to survive.  Whether that actually happened to anyone posting here, I do not know.  But it really happened to a lot of people.  I've not called it GDII because I didn't want to be severe.  But the early 21st century was truly a time of destitution, humiliation and national upheaval.  I think we do not know the magnitude because media does not cover it.  We know there is currently a homeless epidemic.  But we never hear from the news WHY these people are homeless.  Most of them lost everything in the crash and fell down hard.  But no one talks about that.  And there are homeless camps just as their were in GDI.  Except they are not concentrated on the Washington Mall but scattered throughout every major city in America.

If someone brought them all together, the Mall would be quite full.

I don't see how more crisis can be avoided, whether we want it or not, because the forces that made the war on terror possible, and the great recession possible, are still in power. It is a question of who is in power, and the system they have put in place to maintain themselves in power. As long as that is not toppled somehow, the crisis will never end. Powers are toppled in 4Ts, not 1Ts.

I'm perplexed by the fact that no one seems to acknowledge 911 as any part of the crisis whatsoever. Why is that? I'm starting to think some in this forum simply maybe didn't experience the aftermath of it or simply do not understand the implications of all that happened because of that. Everyone seems to agree that 2008 and the financial ruins is the crisis and yet we're waiting for War the second part of a crisis. Or that the order of the events of the crisis are wrong in that there must be a financial woe and only after that some big war. However we had those two things within six or seven years of each other we had Wars going on the same time as we had the financial crisis.

What's going on with that?  Every time I ask that question no one seems to answer.

I'll say again it is almost as if the wars and complications of the aftermath of the wars were not large enough for significant enough to be considered a crisis element. And for anyone who believes that I want to hear what you have to say. I want to hear people say that the 911 wars and cultural impact in the Homeland were not significant enough to be considered part of the crisis.

[Eric the Green]

(06-01-2018, 08:42 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-01-2018, 08:08 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(05-31-2018, 10:57 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(05-31-2018, 07:41 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Perhaps we are experiencing an unusually mild 4T?

I've been saying this a lot.  The events of the Crisis IMO have happened.  We had wars, we had the economic theft, we had massive upheaval with families and individuals losing everything and moving in with grandparents, etc.  Some can't accept that it was "enough" to be the actual crisis.  I say it was just about enough and if they want more, let them have it but leave me out

Oh and earlier I told a very personal story of ONE family who essentially mirrors Grapes of Wrath scenario of the Great Depression with an extended family in a loaded vehicle traveling to parts unknown just hoping to survive.  Whether that actually happened to anyone posting here, I do not know.  But it really happened to a lot of people.  I've not called it GDII because I didn't want to be severe.  But the early 21st century was truly a time of destitution, humiliation and national upheaval.  I think we do not know the magnitude because media does not cover it.  We know there is currently a homeless epidemic.  But we never hear from the news WHY these people are homeless.  Most of them lost everything in the crash and fell down hard.  But no one talks about that.  And there are homeless camps just as their were in GDI.  Except they are not concentrated on the Washington Mall but scattered throughout every major city in America.

If someone brought them all together, the Mall would be quite full.

I don't see how more crisis can be avoided, whether we want it or not, because the forces that made the war on terror possible, and the great recession possible, are still in power. It is a question of who is in power, and the system they have put in place to maintain themselves in power. As long as that is not toppled somehow, the crisis will never end. Powers are toppled in 4Ts, not 1Ts.

I'm perplexed by the fact that no one seems to acknowledge 911 as any part of the crisis whatsoever. Why is that? I'm starting to think some in this forum simply maybe didn't experience the aftermath of it or simply do not understand the implications of all that happened because of that. Everyone seems to agree that 2008 and the financial ruins is the crisis and yet we're waiting for War the second part of a crisis. Or that the order of the events of the crisis are wrong in that there must be a financial woe and only after that some big war. However we had those two things within six or seven years of each other we had Wars going on the same time as we had the financial crisis.

What's going on with that?  Every time I ask that question no one seems to answer.

I'll say again it is almost as if the wars and complications of the aftermath of the wars were not large enough for significant enough to be considered a crisis element. And for anyone who believes that I want to hear what you have to say. I want to hear people say that the 911 wars and cultural impact in the Homeland were not significant enough to be considered part of the crisis.

I for one already answered it. There was no crisis mood, and no dedication of the people to a total war. Just some bombing of a distant land, and relying on a native alliance to topple a terrorist government. And then that was followed by a phony war that never should have happened. Since business went on as usual, and only volunteer soldiers went to the other side of the world to fight a war that only the president and his fellow conspirators wanted, there was no cultural impact on the Homeland. You say there was, because of plane boarding inspections and so on, but airplane travel went on anyway and a lot of us don't fly in airplanes.

I predicted the wars for the time they happened, being the prophet that I am. I knew what was coming, and I knew it would not be a crisis catalyst. Remember my point that a war does not equal a crisis. Wars have happened in almost all turnings. You haven't acknowledged that fact, and as well the fact that war was just business as usual since world war II for the USA and the MIC. There was definitely nothing new about yet another unnecessary war given us by the MIC. We had just had decades of it. So what was so special about just another one? Remember Vietnam? 

I don't know how big the crisis war will be. As I mentioned, in most 4Ts, it has been big. But there was one exception, so perhaps, we can hope, our time (which has a similar place on the larger cycle of civilization as that other one) might be smaller too. But on the other hand, from the cyclic indicators I see, it is likely to be both a war with other nation(s) and a war at home.

You are well up on the problems of our time; you seem very aware of what the powers that be are doing to us. You are concerned, and your facts and values are right, from my point of view. If what is happening now just continues, then there will be no first turning, and no USA for much longer. The powers that be will just keep on screwing us, and that will be that. 

Something must intervene. You can call that a 1T if you want, but I think most S&H fans would call that a 4T, just like the American and French Revolutions were a 4T and the civil war rebellion was a 4T. The intention of many of those who want change today is non-violence. But it may turn out that the right-wing fanatics resort to violence though; we can't rule that out. We can both hope that the next 10 years, which I call the second half of our 4T, and you call a 1T, will see some great and drastic changes, with a minimum of bloodshed. 

Of course, if the gun violence and mass shootings don't stop, then that will be the violence anyway. Without gun reform, that will happen, and it will get worse. And if the reformers succeed in stopping that violence through better laws, and the reactionaries react violently to this gun control, accusing the government of coming for their guns, then that will be the violence. It could be that we are due for more, no matter what. 

The human condition is still primitive, I'm afraid. My own experience with people and with our country doesn't give me much hope it can be avoided; whether a revolution happens, or whether we just enter a 1T and give up and go silent and quiescent like the Silent Generation (Gen Z being their recurrence), and just let the reactionary and big-business authorities have their way. Violence will happen either way. That does not mean that I "want" it. And the same thing for the mal-distribution of wealth in this country, and the great climate and pollution crisis; as well as the penchant for the MIC to get us into still more wars we don't want like those after 9-11. If we don't want all this, then we need to see some action, not a 1T surrender to conformity and acceptance of whatever the authorities want.

[Eric the Green]

(06-01-2018, 08:33 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(05-31-2018, 10:00 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(05-31-2018, 07:41 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Perhaps we are experiencing an unusually mild 4T?

I thought such possible in the late 1990s, when the Crisis era could have been more a cultural phenomenon than one with potential for great ruin.

The extreme polarization in American political life, the intense inequality of economic results, and the utter ruthlessness of one side of the political spectrum suggest otherwise.

Remember: the weather before a severe blizzard can be freakishly balmy and gentle.  I have seen April blizzards that follow several days of temperatures around 70F. The disruptive April blizzard is still possible. A sharp cold wave overtakes some warm, humid weather, and the juiced air becomes the source of what can be the biggest snowstorm of the whole winter. That's Michigan.

You said... The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt. 

Isn't this shocking.  To me it just completely represents the Boomer culture-war. Because I truly believe a huge majority of those who voted for the current president or got him into office did so on a culture war against the other side and nothing more. They didn't want him so much as they did not want another non white bred liberal type or Progressive person. That's the destructive Behavior of Boomer culture wars. They would rather elect someone who lives in an alternate reality and is the opposite of what they don't want. Isn't that sick? 

Those are the deceived red boomers. They have always been sick. The aware and true blue boomers need to get going and help get things on the right track again, in an alliance with the blue millennials and Xers. That's quite simple. If you just want to be left out, and accept whatever comes, that's your choice. That's THE choice, and the only choice. Support the resumption of progress, or accept the decay.

[TheNomad]

(06-01-2018, 11:57 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-01-2018, 08:33 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(05-31-2018, 10:00 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(05-31-2018, 07:41 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Perhaps we are experiencing an unusually mild 4T?

I thought such possible in the late 1990s, when the Crisis era could have been more a cultural phenomenon than one with potential for great ruin.

The extreme polarization in American political life, the intense inequality of economic results, and the utter ruthlessness of one side of the political spectrum suggest otherwise.

Remember: the weather before a severe blizzard can be freakishly balmy and gentle.  I have seen April blizzards that follow several days of temperatures around 70F. The disruptive April blizzard is still possible. A sharp cold wave overtakes some warm, humid weather, and the juiced air becomes the source of what can be the biggest snowstorm of the whole winter. That's Michigan.

You said... The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt. 

Isn't this shocking.  To me it just completely represents the Boomer culture-war. Because I truly believe a huge majority of those who voted for the current president or got him into office did so on a culture war against the other side and nothing more. They didn't want him so much as they did not want another non white bred liberal type or Progressive person. That's the destructive Behavior of Boomer culture wars. They would rather elect someone who lives in an alternate reality and is the opposite of what they don't want. Isn't that sick? 

Those are the deceived red boomers. They have always been sick. The aware and true blue boomers need to get going and help get things on the right track again, in an alliance with the blue millennials and Xers. That's quite simple. If you just want to be left out, and accept whatever comes, that's your choice. That's THE choice, and the only choice. Support the resumption of progress, or accept the decay.

um o god the large text..... i used my tablet and  must have freaked out,  sorry

I'm not sure I agree with this.  At one time I would say I agree the "blue" side must prevail.  But I now understand that side is as fully corrupt as the other.  I would say it would be better, but not a transformative better.  I don't trust anyone in politics above a certain age to not be entrenched and mired in all the processes which make them beholden to the detroyers which I view as a Corporatocracy.

Some people may really be offended by my views that right now we are being overtaken by the very things the OLD wars said we were fighting for.  We were fighting against things like communisim and socialism and other ISMs all in the name of economic alleged freedom, capitalism and all that good stuff(?).  By the 1960s America became overrun by hyper-capitalism and psychopaths (that is not an exaggeration or hyperbole).  There is a fundamental problem with capitalism.  Many will just say it is the best system by which t govern a large entity, and I may agree with that.  However, we must acknowledge we have been turned into The Consumer Civilization making us to glut ourselves on everything material.  Others produce it, we buy it, and the corporation thrives with outright overt plots to exploit each and every one of us.

This isn't even about politics.  People should come to finally understand this.  NOT about politics at all.  Voting is a hijacked system, the "party" system is completely rigged in every way.  In what way?  The Corporation purchases their will and that was fine back in the last saeculum when Americans made things for Americans and took pride in what they made, they wanted to succeed but not on the backs of the disconnected consumer or the slave-system of production in 3rd world nations.

The way Mom & Pop companies balanced this evil co-opt is they saw the same consumers often throughout generations.  They actually interacted with who they purchased products FROM.  There was a sort of relationship between seller/buyer/consumer that is utterly obliterated by faceless corporations and board members who never know the slave farms they buy from, never know the consumers they sell to, and have no other expectation than to acquire wealth at all cost..... and that's what a business is FOR - it exists to make money, sure.  But when the "executives" and "purchasers" retract more and more from the consumer, the opportunity to exploitation is beyond obvious.

This mentality in business began with the military where war profiteers and mega families built wealth on the back of the slave soldier who assumes the physical face of war while the corporation simply operates to create parts and material to sell FOR the war.  If you have a business that is red, white and blue with a hardon for death which creates wealth, that model will soon seep into non-military corps and into big box corps who follow the same immoral rule to make wealth while paying the employee as little as possible with as little benefits and force responsibility onto people who have no business having such responsibilities and do not receive anywhere near the kind of pay required for such responsibilities.  

The Corporation then removes Mom & Pop to further remove itself from any humanity.... which allows it to treat employees and consumers as farm hogs.  They don't have to personally deal with anyone.  There's ONE manager in a Walmart superstore and 100+ minimum wage employees.  And the employees are encouraged to go to the government for benefits under the guise they are underpaid.

How is that American?  Is that what we fought for destroying nazi germany and axis powers?  Because as far as I'm concerned every war since that one has been wholly manufactured and a lie, based on lies and deception, everyone JUST NOW finally admits Tonkin was a staged event, but we are never ahead of the curve.  Then, every store you visit is a big box store where no one knows the consumer, don't care about their families and it is totally impersonal ALLOWING and FEEDING this culture of exploitation and hyper-capitalism.

So, if you think voting or a certain political party is going to right THAT wrong, I strongly doubt it.

[Eric the Green]

Well maybe, but what you are saying is just what the blue boomers are saying and still stand for. We boomers knew every bit of this back in the 60s. We said all these things back then. The problem is we have been stalemated ever since, because the corporate big shots got together and installed corporate trickle-down economics into our government, and the reformers have been shoved aside ever since. So yes, blue is the right party, or green is the right party, or whoever is saying and doing the right things, and we need the gray champions to come out and be leaders along with the young champions. We need to vote, and vote to take back the system from all the rigging: the gerrymandering, the money-grubbing, the vote suppression, every bit of it. Yes, voting on the basis of real knowledge and concern, is the cure for a lot of what you mentioned. The young people like those who spoke at the March for Our Lives know this. Bernie made inequality and hyper-capitalism his issue; other candidates will as well.

I don't know if we can bring back the Mom and Pop economy and tear down all the big box stores. Maybe that's just the age we live in. But we can do a lot to make the bosses pay, and open up the economy to the little guy. I always thought it would take a spiritual renaissance as well. Then we get into the other side of life, and the whole nature of our worldviews that dehumanize and disenchant the world. This is more of a 2T than a 4T process, but this time, you could see some awakening from the consumer materialism too. More people everyday see that the purpose of life is not to make money and buy things, but to discover, to wonder, to create beauty, to love and make friends, to resonate with higher vibrations going on, to help each other. The boomers discovered this in youth, and many of us have forgotten. But it's still there somewhere in our hearts, and younger people can appreciate and resurrect this tradition from the past awakening and all past awakenings, instead of settling for today's cynicism and narrow worldviews.

[TheNomad]

(06-02-2018, 04:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Well maybe, but what you are saying is just what the blue boomers are saying and still stand for. We boomers knew every bit of this back in the 60s. We said all these things back then. The problem is we have been stalemated ever since, because the corporate big shots got together and installed corporate trickle-down economics into our government, and the reformers have been shoved aside ever since. So yes, blue is the right party, or green is the right party, or whoever is saying and doing the right things, and we need the gray champions to come out and be leaders along with the young champions. We need to vote, and vote to take back the system from all the rigging: the gerrymandering, the money-grubbing, the vote suppression, every bit of it. Yes, voting on the basis of real knowledge and concern, is the cure for a lot of what you mentioned. The young people like those who spoke at the March for Our Lives know this. Bernie made inequality and hyper-capitalism his issue; other candidates will as well.

I don't know if we can bring back the Mom and Pop economy and tear down all the big box stores. Maybe that's just the age we live in. But we can do a lot to make the bosses pay, and open up the economy to the little guy. I always thought it would take a spiritual renaissance as well. Then we get into the other side of life, and the whole nature of our worldviews that dehumanize and disenchant the world. This is more of a 2T than a 4T process, but this time, you could see some awakening from the consumer materialism too. More people everyday see that the purpose of life is not to make money and buy things, but to discover, to wonder, to create beauty, to love and make friends, to resonate with higher vibrations going on, to help each other. The boomers discovered this in youth, and many of us have forgotten. But it's still there somewhere in our hearts, and younger people can appreciate and resurrect this tradition from the past awakening and all past awakenings, instead of settling for today's cynicism and narrow worldviews.

The Prophets may have been the needed outrage in youth but their place in their cycle now is ONLY culture wars.  That is just what I believe.  Either side, all sides.  You say "whoever is saying and doing the right things" but they all say the right things and then DO the the destructive things anyway.  It's totally acceptable now for any politician to stand in front of people to say one thing then do the exact opposite.  That's how the system works.

You can't say that voting is the answer because no matter what color the winner is, they are indebted to the Powers behind the scenes OR THEY WOULDN'T BE THE WINNER.  The Powers of Corporatocracy decides who wins.  I don't believe we can ask or expect elected officials to change something like gerrymandering when their Corporate Constituents are benefiting from it.

The younger people must have the moral compass to resist this evil and that's the only way it can change.  I do see a moral compass on the scene, but not yet with enough power to transform yet.  I do not think the aging boomers will join them except maybe as a photo op or a planned association to benefit their own campaigns like "LOOK we identify with these people" but then they will just go and do what they do anyway.  They are liars.  Nomads will and certainly the "helpmate" artists will. 

As for mom & pop, no I can't see a return of that.  It's too late.  I only used that as an example of how incessant greed and abuse on the consumer was sort of held accountable because society was "smaller" and you went down the street to buy food products or a TV set from someone in the neighborhood you knew and who knew you.  There was a connection, and that lessened the ability for faceless entities of The Corporation to take advantage of everyone.  I miss when I was a kid going to the video store, I knew the owner, they knew me and my family, it was a nice experience and I was not gouged for someone's balance sheet.  But can I say the same for Netflix, for example.  They don't know me nor me them.  Or f@cebook who view all of us as chattel to be data-mined and exploited to the extreme.  When you first join up the f@acebook you are greeted by a picture of Murk Suckerburg on the screen as if he's your friend guiding you to the social gathering of your friends and family.  To me that's the same as when you call any customer service about a problem and the AUTOMATED VOICE apologizes to you that you've experienced a problem.  Seriously?  Does anyone beside me think of these things?  A ROBOT basically is apologizing to you.  That's really offensive.  For example, where I live has terrible internet service that gets "scheduled maintenance" probably 3-4 times per week between the hours of midnight and 6am.  I'm losing money because I'm constantly without the services I pay for.  I call as many times as I can and ask for a refund for the lack of service.  But only after 20 minutes of music and waiting and automated apologies designed to make you hang up so you DON'T get a refund. 

As you've said in second paragraph, it isn't about legislative reform so much as it is about PEOPLE who arrive with actual humanity.  People who have a moral compass, people that fill these "slots" who are not looking to some law or edict to force them into a better morality, for that must come from within.  I do hope this Hero Millenial generation has that trait and from what I see, I can envision that happening.

Cynicism is often a good thing.  How many past generations got frakked because they trusted the government, the voting system, the party system......... they are OK with only being provided 2 candidates for everything, and those two candidates are THE SAME PERSON usually..... both will make almost identical promises, assure people they will "work across the aisle" and then everyone is dissatisfied with the 2 choices and ALWAYS vote for the lesser of 2 evils.  I cannot remember a time when America actually voted for someone they WANTED as opposed to who they DID NOT want.  This could be said of Reagan, Clinton, Obama.......... but even with them, a huge percent of people did not want them at all even though they won by large margins.  I try not to leave those people out because they, too, are Americans and even though I may not agree with their views, they have the right to WANT a candidate instead of settling for the less of 2 worst.

The authors do describe a semi return to mom&pop business ideals...... I can't envision a world without walmart or home depot (not because I want them but because how hard is it to UNINSTALL such things after the fact?).  I'm a cynic in that I don't believe a global economic model can be stopped even though that is the source of so many ills in our American society.  We can't go back. 

We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve.  We can begin stopping things before they happen.  But the problem with that is no one wants to or can believe or understand the terrors waiting around the corner and do nothing to stop it.  America takes 50+ years to identify and believe a scam affecting millions.  It wasn't until 1992 and the movie JFK that people as a whole began to accept that was a plot to remove someone in power who would not cave to the Military Industrial Complex. 

Further, remember all those JFK documents that were supposed to be released?  They keep getting pushed back.  Why?  Because Bush The First is still alive and the Bush family of that generation (Prescott, etc) have the blood on their hands.  Believe me, when Bush The First finally expires, we will finally find the connections (they've already been found but no mainstream media will touch it) and that's what I mean when the COURSE of American evil is identified too late, nothing can be done.  Even now, no one will say that CAPITALISM is causing major problems and Crisis in America.  The Corporation came before Bush II in 2008 and basically said "if you don't give us all the money we are asking for, there will be economic collapse".  How is that different from walking into a bank with a gun and demanding all the cash? 

Maybe it should have been allowed to collapse (if it was even real to begin with).  And who ended up with that money?  Was it filtered down to the average worker?  No.  It was supplied to executives and politicians for their golden parachutes and for their 7th yacht docked in the island of Scorpia.  What kind of America have we become in the last 70+ years?  Our leaders have no interest in what happens to us, they blatantly steal from us.

A really cool symbolism I heard was that there used to be SLAVERY.  Humans were used as basically cattle to perform tasks so the wealthy could be wealthy.  But there was a problem.  The slave owners had to feed and house their slaves.  So an innovation was made.  There are still slaves, except now, the slaves must feed and house THEMSELVES.  This wipes a huge expense off the slave-owners' bottom line.  Ridiculous rent, unbelievable housing prices, the cost of food and clothing, etc.  The slave is still SERVING except the Master no longer has to accommodate them on-site or assist their day-to-day living.  That's some REAL shit!

[beechnut79]

(06-02-2018, 04:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Well maybe, but what you are saying is just what the blue boomers are saying and still stand for. We boomers knew every bit of this back in the 60s. We said all these things back then. The problem is we have been stalemated ever since, because the corporate big shots got together and installed corporate trickle-down economics into our government, and the reformers have been shoved aside ever since. So yes, blue is the right party, or green is the right party, or whoever is saying and doing the right things, and we need the gray champions to come out and be leaders along with the young champions. We need to vote, and vote to take back the system from all the rigging: the gerrymandering, the money-grubbing, the vote suppression, every bit of it. Yes, voting on the basis of real knowledge and concern, is the cure for a lot of what you mentioned. The young people like those who spoke at the March for Our Lives know this. Bernie made inequality and hyper-capitalism his issue; other candidates will as well.

I don't know if we can bring back the Mom and Pop economy and tear down all the big box stores. Maybe that's just the age we live in. But we can do a lot to make the bosses pay, and open up the economy to the little guy. I always thought it would take a spiritual renaissance as well. Then we get into the other side of life, and the whole nature of our worldviews that dehumanize and disenchant the world. This is more of a 2T than a 4T process, but this time, you could see some awakening from the consumer materialism too. More people everyday see that the purpose of life is not to make money and buy things, but to discover, to wonder, to create beauty, to love and make friends, to resonate with higher vibrations going on, to help each other. The boomers discovered this in youth, and many of us have forgotten. But it's still there somewhere in our hearts, and younger people can appreciate and resurrect this tradition from the past awakening and all past awakenings, instead of settling for today's cynicism and narrow worldviews.

Much of the demise of these traditional Mom and Pop stores falls into the "we have met the enemy and it is us" category. Yes the big box stores do play a part, but the public itself wanted a lot more convenience than the mom and pops were able to offer, such as loads of free parking and stores remaining open nearly round the clock. The expansion of business hours became more imperative with the advent of so may more two career households.

What you said in your closing paragraph is what the youthful Boomers preached about during their "free love" phase but yet wholly accepted the Wal Martization of damn near everything once they became mid-lifers and actually created an establishment much more ruthless than the one that they so heavily criticized during their youth.

[Eric the Green]

Convenience is an attraction of the big stores, although that doesn't mean they had to be like walmart. Remember though that many of us remained as we were in youth in many of our attitudes, and did not join the walmart world. And this Establishment of today was largely created by GIs and Silents like Reagan. It is not really accurate or fair for Xers to lump all people older than them (and same age as them) together as "boomers," and say they created the Establishment, but you guys do it anyway. In fact, Xers often have been more cynical, materialist and conservative than boomers were at their age, and that also included the more-conservative Boomer-Xer group in their younger years. It is more accurate to say "Republicans" created today's ruthless Establishment, and also include moderate "New Democrats" as often too complicit. For whatever reason, the Republicans and complicit Democrats have won most of the political battles, including the rigged elections of 2000 and 2016, and the midterms in which young people have not voted. It's political more than generational. If you hope to just replace older with younger people, that may not bring the needed change you might want. You have to look at peoples' values, policies and behaviors.

I should also mention that some Xers, like the ambient musicians I promote and listen to, continued and advanced/improved on the artistic traditions established in the second turning by older and core boomers and silent/boomer cuspers (the "sixties generation"), traditions in turn influenced by what came before. That's the way to do it. But the more popular Xer pop styles too often just threw out the 2T tradition out of cynicism, and the resulting poor quality is evident.

[TheNomad]

(06-02-2018, 06:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Convenience is an attraction of the big stores, although that doesn't mean they had to be like walmart. Remember though that many of us remained as we were in youth in many of our attitudes, and did not join the walmart world. And this Establishment of today was largely created by GIs and Silents like Reagan. It is not really accurate or fair for Xers to lump all people older than them (and same age as them) together as "boomers," and say they created the Establishment, but you guys do it anyway. In fact, Xers often have been more cynical, materialist and conservative than boomers were at their age, and that also included the more-conservative Boomer-Xer group in their younger years. It is more accurate to say "Republicans" created today's ruthless Establishment, and also include moderate "New Democrats" as often too complicit. For whatever reason, the Republicans and complicit Democrats have won most of the political battles, including the rigged elections of 2000 and 2016, and the midterms in which young people have not voted. It's political more than generational. If you hope to just replace older with younger people, that may not bring the needed change you might want. You have to look at peoples' values, policies and behaviors.

I should also mention that some Xers, like the ambient musicians I promote and listen to, continued and advanced/improved on the artistic traditions established in the second turning by older and core boomers and silent/boomer cuspers (the "sixties generation"), traditions in turn influenced by what came before. That's the way to do it. But the more popular Xer pop styles too often just threw out the 2T tradition out of cynicism, and the resulting poor quality is evident.

You say Xers fomented this stuff but there's a direct quote from the S&H text that says:

"13rs view the world as a theme park totally wrecked by boomers". 

My generation must live in the world you guys made for us.  We may not want walmart but we know we cannot stop it.  So, we don't care.  We are just trying to survive.  That is the defining quality of my generation.  We don't trust things because things are corrupt.  Not because we made them corrupt.  We inherited it.  We have to live with what our elders left for us.  And going back to the very beginning, we are the children our parents were trying so hard not to have.  It only goes down from there.

I disagree it is about politics.  I also disagree a huge percent of ANY boomers in position of power are not on the take at some level.  The new morality will only hopefully come from people not of the elder generation.  Sure, the flower children protested then became what they protested against.  Xrs also change with age.  We believe the system does not work, and that's not cynical it's just true.  And we ALWAYS get blamed for "not participating" or for being cynical, but we have every reason not to be.

I love ambient music.  I love the "Chill" genre and the Ibiza compilations, Afterlife, Golddfrapp, etc.  I didn't used to, I grew up on hip hop and metal.

[Eric the Green]

(06-02-2018, 07:31 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 06:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Convenience is an attraction of the big stores, although that doesn't mean they had to be like walmart. Remember though that many of us remained as we were in youth in many of our attitudes, and did not join the walmart world. And this Establishment of today was largely created by GIs and Silents like Reagan. It is not really accurate or fair for Xers to lump all people older than them (and same age as them) together as "boomers," and say they created the Establishment, but you guys do it anyway. In fact, Xers often have been more cynical, materialist and conservative than boomers were at their age, and that also included the more-conservative Boomer-Xer group in their younger years. It is more accurate to say "Republicans" created today's ruthless Establishment, and also include moderate "New Democrats" as often too complicit. For whatever reason, the Republicans and complicit Democrats have won most of the political battles, including the rigged elections of 2000 and 2016, and the midterms in which young people have not voted. It's political more than generational. If you hope to just replace older with younger people, that may not bring the needed change you might want. You have to look at peoples' values, policies and behaviors.

I should also mention that some Xers, like the ambient musicians I promote and listen to, continued and advanced/improved on the artistic traditions established in the second turning by older and core boomers and silent/boomer cuspers (the "sixties generation"), traditions in turn influenced by what came before. That's the way to do it. But the more popular Xer pop styles too often just threw out the 2T tradition out of cynicism, and the resulting poor quality is evident.

You say Xers fomented this stuff but there's a direct quote from the S&H text that says:

"13rs view the world as a theme park totally wrecked by boomers". 

My generation must live in the world you guys made for us.  We may not want walmart but we know we cannot stop it.  So, we don't care.  We are just trying to survive.  That is the defining quality of my generation.  We don't trust things because things are corrupt.  Not because we made them corrupt.  We inherited it.  We have to live with what our elders left for us.  And going back to the very beginning, we are the children our parents were trying so hard not to have.  It only goes down from there.

I disagree it is about politics.  I also disagree a huge percent of ANY boomers in position of power are not on the take at some level.  The new morality will only hopefully come from people not of the elder generation.  Sure, the flower children protested then became what they protested against.  Xrs also change with age.  We believe the system does not work, and that's not cynical it's just true.  And we ALWAYS get blamed for "not participating" or for being cynical, but we have every reason not to be.

I love ambient music.  I love the "Chill" genre and the Ibiza compilations, Afterlife, Golddfrapp, etc.  I didn't used to, I grew up on hip hop and metal.

You view it that way, according to S&H, and that's true, you do; but that view is not necessarily correct. We didn't make it either. We inherited most of it too. And most of us are not in positions of power, but those of us who who are, are not necessarily corrupt. But too many of us are; I am disappointed in our generation too.

But you guys contributed to it even more than we did by going along with the conservative politics and the system in general, more than we did. No, the system does not work too well. Xers have been wrong just to not participate, whether you have reason not to, or not. So were boomers who felt the same way. But that doesn't apply to all Xers either. Millies should do better, because they are more willing to participate and change it. As of now, the "elders" are all generations older than millennials.

I appreciate that you love ambient music. I do a radio show of it on the internet, at stillstream.fm

[Eric the Green]

(06-02-2018, 04:18 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 04:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Well maybe, but what you are saying is just what the blue boomers are saying and still stand for. We boomers knew every bit of this back in the 60s. We said all these things back then. The problem is we have been stalemated ever since, because the corporate big shots got together and installed corporate trickle-down economics into our government, and the reformers have been shoved aside ever since. So yes, blue is the right party, or green is the right party, or whoever is saying and doing the right things, and we need the gray champions to come out and be leaders along with the young champions. We need to vote, and vote to take back the system from all the rigging: the gerrymandering, the money-grubbing, the vote suppression, every bit of it. Yes, voting on the basis of real knowledge and concern, is the cure for a lot of what you mentioned. The young people like those who spoke at the March for Our Lives know this. Bernie made inequality and hyper-capitalism his issue; other candidates will as well.

I don't know if we can bring back the Mom and Pop economy and tear down all the big box stores. Maybe that's just the age we live in. But we can do a lot to make the bosses pay, and open up the economy to the little guy. I always thought it would take a spiritual renaissance as well. Then we get into the other side of life, and the whole nature of our worldviews that dehumanize and disenchant the world. This is more of a 2T than a 4T process, but this time, you could see some awakening from the consumer materialism too. More people everyday see that the purpose of life is not to make money and buy things, but to discover, to wonder, to create beauty, to love and make friends, to resonate with higher vibrations going on, to help each other. The boomers discovered this in youth, and many of us have forgotten. But it's still there somewhere in our hearts, and younger people can appreciate and resurrect this tradition from the past awakening and all past awakenings, instead of settling for today's cynicism and narrow worldviews.

The Prophets may have been the needed outrage in youth but their place in their cycle now is ONLY culture wars.  That is just what I believe.  Either side, all sides.  You say "whoever is saying and doing the right things" but they all say the right things and then DO the the destructive things anyway.  It's totally acceptable now for any politician to stand in front of people to say one thing then do the exact opposite.  That's how the system works.

You can't say that voting is the answer because no matter what color the winner is, they are indebted to the Powers behind the scenes OR THEY WOULDN'T BE THE WINNER.  The Powers of Corporatocracy decides who wins.  I don't believe we can ask or expect elected officials to change something like gerrymandering when their Corporate Constituents are benefiting from it.

We need to believe, and know, that it can be changed, and that many politicians do the right things. Or else the 4T you don't want continues forever.

Quote:The younger people must have the moral compass to resist this evil and that's the only way it can change.  I do see a moral compass on the scene, but not yet with enough power to transform yet.  I do not think the aging boomers will join them except maybe as a photo op or a planned association to benefit their own campaigns like "LOOK we identify with these people" but then they will just go and do what they do anyway.  They are liars.  Nomads will and certainly the "helpmate" artists will. 

I disagree

Quote:As for mom & pop, no I can't see a return of that.  It's too late.  I only used that as an example of how incessant greed and abuse on the consumer was sort of held accountable because society was "smaller" and you went down the street to buy food products or a TV set from someone in the neighborhood you knew and who knew you.  There was a connection, and that lessened the ability for faceless entities of The Corporation to take advantage of everyone.  I miss when I was a kid going to the video store, I knew the owner, they knew me and my family, it was a nice experience and I was not gouged for someone's balance sheet.  But can I say the same for Netflix, for example.  They don't know me nor me them.  Or f@cebook who view all of us as chattel to be data-mined and exploited to the extreme.  When you first join up the f@acebook you are greeted by a picture of Murk Suckerburg on the screen as if he's your friend guiding you to the social gathering of your friends and family.  To me that's the same as when you call any customer service about a problem and the AUTOMATED VOICE apologizes to you that you've experienced a problem.  Seriously?  Does anyone beside me think of these things?  A ROBOT basically is apologizing to you.  That's really offensive.  For example, where I live has terrible internet service that gets "scheduled maintenance" probably 3-4 times per week between the hours of midnight and 6am.  I'm losing money because I'm constantly without the services I pay for.  I call as many times as I can and ask for a refund for the lack of service.  But only after 20 minutes of music and waiting and automated apologies designed to make you hang up so you DON'T get a refund. 

Suckerberg lol

Maybe millennials won't want to follow blue gray champions, but for a while, they will need to vote, as the younger generation says, for those elders who share their values and knowledge.

Quote:As you've said in second paragraph, it isn't about legislative reform so much as it is about PEOPLE who arrive with actual humanity.  People who have a moral compass, people that fill these "slots" who are not looking to some law or edict to force them into a better morality, for that must come from within.  I do hope this Hero Millenial generation has that trait and from what I see, I can envision that happening.

The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.

Quote:Cynicism is often a good thing.  How many past generations got frakked because they trusted the government, the voting system, the party system......... they are OK with only being provided 2 candidates for everything, and those two candidates are THE SAME PERSON usually..... both will make almost identical promises, assure people they will "work across the aisle" and then everyone is dissatisfied with the 2 choices and ALWAYS vote for the lesser of 2 evils.  I cannot remember a time when America actually voted for someone they WANTED as opposed to who they DID NOT want.  This could be said of Reagan, Clinton, Obama.......... but even with them, a huge percent of people did not want them at all even though they won by large margins.  I try not to leave those people out because they, too, are Americans and even though I may not agree with their views, they have the right to WANT a candidate instead of settling for the less of 2 worst.

Cynicism can be a good thing, to a point; until it stops people from taking action, voting and participating. Then, it's not good. An idealistic pragmatic realism accepts the obvious truth that candidates won't do everything you want them to do. Incremental progress is better than none. And though I usually vote beyond the two main parties, I recognize that in this system, any progress is better than regression, and that's the blue vs. red choice. Xers are supposed to be pragmatic. Those who are, put aside emotion and look at the facts and strategies of what will actually work.

Quote:The authors do describe a semi return to mom&pop business ideals...... I can't envision a world without walmart or home depot (not because I want them but because how hard is it to UNINSTALL such things after the fact?).  I'm a cynic in that I don't believe a global economic model can be stopped even though that is the source of so many ills in our American society.  We can't go back. 

We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve.  We can begin stopping things before they happen.  But the problem with that is no one wants to or can believe or understand the terrors waiting around the corner and do nothing to stop it.  America takes 50+ years to identify and believe a scam affecting millions.  It wasn't until 1992 and the movie JFK that people as a whole began to accept that was a plot to remove someone in power who would not cave to the Military Industrial Complex. 

Yes, we can stop it. "We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve." Yes. But if Xers such as you and beechnut are not willing to work and vote in alliance with blue boomers, it probably can't happen, because no generation can do what is needed to be done by itself without the others. Boomers still have a lot of the votes and the leadership, and there are good ones to work with.

No, your example of JFK does not fly. JFK was murdered by Oswald acting alone. All the facts on that are well proven, and open and shut. I looked into it myself very thoroughly. No case was ever more clear-cut. This was the granddaddy of today's conspiracy theories, and I once believed it too. But conspiracy theories today are almost all bogus, and contribute to cynicism that is destructive. The Establishment may be bad, but it is not as bad as people think who view the world through the lens of conspiracy theories. "9-11 truth" is another one that doesn't hold up entirely. There is no need to exaggerate using conspiracy theory. The facts are bad enough by themselves. We need to learn this. There's no need to debate JFK. People can look into it for themselves quite easily.

Quote:Further, remember all those JFK documents that were supposed to be released?  They keep getting pushed back.  Why?  Because Bush The First is still alive and the Bush family of that generation (Prescott, etc) have the blood on their hands.  Believe me, when Bush The First finally expires, we will finally find the connections (they've already been found but no mainstream media will touch it) and that's what I mean when the COURSE of American evil is identified too late, nothing can be done.  Even now, no one will say that CAPITALISM is causing major problems and Crisis in America.  The Corporation came before Bush II in 2008 and basically said "if you don't give us all the money we are asking for, there will be economic collapse".  How is that different from walking into a bank with a gun and demanding all the cash? 

They got away with it. The powers that be, including Xers, have not been willing to put the greedy ones in their place. I don't know to what extent millennials will do this.

Quote:Maybe it should have been allowed to collapse (if it was even real to begin with).  And who ended up with that money?  Was it filtered down to the average worker?  No.  It was supplied to executives and politicians for their golden parachutes and for their 7th yacht docked in the island of Scorpia.  What kind of America have we become in the last 70+ years?  Our leaders have no interest in what happens to us, they blatantly steal from us.

That's true. And it is mainly the Republicans who are responsible, although some Democrats are complicit. This is a matter of politics, for sure. Political policies created all this. It was deliberate. Business is not held accountable in the Republican trickle-down ideology. It is allowed to get away with anything. Progressive Democrats favor the regulations that were taken down which do prevent this crap from happening. Yes they do.

Quote:A really cool symbolism I heard was that there used to be SLAVERY.  Humans were used as basically cattle to perform tasks so the wealthy could be wealthy.  But there was a problem.  The slave owners had to feed and house their slaves.  So an innovation was made.  There are still slaves, except now, the slaves must feed and house THEMSELVES.  This wipes a huge expense off the slave-owners' bottom line.  Ridiculous rent, unbelievable housing prices, the cost of food and clothing, etc.  The slave is still SERVING except the Master no longer has to accommodate them on-site or assist their day-to-day living.  That's some REAL shit!

True enough, I'm in agreement.

[TheNomad]

(06-02-2018, 08:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 04:18 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 04:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Well maybe, but what you are saying is just what the blue boomers are saying and still stand for. We boomers knew every bit of this back in the 60s. We said all these things back then. The problem is we have been stalemated ever since, because the corporate big shots got together and installed corporate trickle-down economics into our government, and the reformers have been shoved aside ever since. So yes, blue is the right party, or green is the right party, or whoever is saying and doing the right things, and we need the gray champions to come out and be leaders along with the young champions. We need to vote, and vote to take back the system from all the rigging: the gerrymandering, the money-grubbing, the vote suppression, every bit of it. Yes, voting on the basis of real knowledge and concern, is the cure for a lot of what you mentioned. The young people like those who spoke at the March for Our Lives know this. Bernie made inequality and hyper-capitalism his issue; other candidates will as well.

I don't know if we can bring back the Mom and Pop economy and tear down all the big box stores. Maybe that's just the age we live in. But we can do a lot to make the bosses pay, and open up the economy to the little guy. I always thought it would take a spiritual renaissance as well. Then we get into the other side of life, and the whole nature of our worldviews that dehumanize and disenchant the world. This is more of a 2T than a 4T process, but this time, you could see some awakening from the consumer materialism too. More people everyday see that the purpose of life is not to make money and buy things, but to discover, to wonder, to create beauty, to love and make friends, to resonate with higher vibrations going on, to help each other. The boomers discovered this in youth, and many of us have forgotten. But it's still there somewhere in our hearts, and younger people can appreciate and resurrect this tradition from the past awakening and all past awakenings, instead of settling for today's cynicism and narrow worldviews.

The Prophets may have been the needed outrage in youth but their place in their cycle now is ONLY culture wars.  That is just what I believe.  Either side, all sides.  You say "whoever is saying and doing the right things" but they all say the right things and then DO the the destructive things anyway.  It's totally acceptable now for any politician to stand in front of people to say one thing then do the exact opposite.  That's how the system works.

You can't say that voting is the answer because no matter what color the winner is, they are indebted to the Powers behind the scenes OR THEY WOULDN'T BE THE WINNER.  The Powers of Corporatocracy decides who wins.  I don't believe we can ask or expect elected officials to change something like gerrymandering when their Corporate Constituents are benefiting from it.

We need to believe, and know, that it can be changed, and that many politicians do the right things. Or else the 4T you don't want continues forever.

Quote:The younger people must have the moral compass to resist this evil and that's the only way it can change.  I do see a moral compass on the scene, but not yet with enough power to transform yet.  I do not think the aging boomers will join them except maybe as a photo op or a planned association to benefit their own campaigns like "LOOK we identify with these people" but then they will just go and do what they do anyway.  They are liars.  Nomads will and certainly the "helpmate" artists will. 

I disagree

Quote:As for mom & pop, no I can't see a return of that.  It's too late.  I only used that as an example of how incessant greed and abuse on the consumer was sort of held accountable because society was "smaller" and you went down the street to buy food products or a TV set from someone in the neighborhood you knew and who knew you.  There was a connection, and that lessened the ability for faceless entities of The Corporation to take advantage of everyone.  I miss when I was a kid going to the video store, I knew the owner, they knew me and my family, it was a nice experience and I was not gouged for someone's balance sheet.  But can I say the same for Netflix, for example.  They don't know me nor me them.  Or f@cebook who view all of us as chattel to be data-mined and exploited to the extreme.  When you first join up the f@acebook you are greeted by a picture of Murk Suckerburg on the screen as if he's your friend guiding you to the social gathering of your friends and family.  To me that's the same as when you call any customer service about a problem and the AUTOMATED VOICE apologizes to you that you've experienced a problem.  Seriously?  Does anyone beside me think of these things?  A ROBOT basically is apologizing to you.  That's really offensive.  For example, where I live has terrible internet service that gets "scheduled maintenance" probably 3-4 times per week between the hours of midnight and 6am.  I'm losing money because I'm constantly without the services I pay for.  I call as many times as I can and ask for a refund for the lack of service.  But only after 20 minutes of music and waiting and automated apologies designed to make you hang up so you DON'T get a refund. 

Suckerberg lol

Maybe millennials won't want to follow blue gray champions, but for a while, they will need to vote, as the younger generation says, for those elders who share their values and knowledge.

Quote:As you've said in second paragraph, it isn't about legislative reform so much as it is about PEOPLE who arrive with actual humanity.  People who have a moral compass, people that fill these "slots" who are not looking to some law or edict to force them into a better morality, for that must come from within.  I do hope this Hero Millenial generation has that trait and from what I see, I can envision that happening.

The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.

Quote:Cynicism is often a good thing.  How many past generations got frakked because they trusted the government, the voting system, the party system......... they are OK with only being provided 2 candidates for everything, and those two candidates are THE SAME PERSON usually..... both will make almost identical promises, assure people they will "work across the aisle" and then everyone is dissatisfied with the 2 choices and ALWAYS vote for the lesser of 2 evils.  I cannot remember a time when America actually voted for someone they WANTED as opposed to who they DID NOT want.  This could be said of Reagan, Clinton, Obama.......... but even with them, a huge percent of people did not want them at all even though they won by large margins.  I try not to leave those people out because they, too, are Americans and even though I may not agree with their views, they have the right to WANT a candidate instead of settling for the less of 2 worst.

Cynicism can be a good thing, to a point; until it stops people from taking action, voting and participating. Then, it's not good. An idealistic pragmatic realism accepts the obvious truth that candidates won't do everything you want them to do. Incremental progress is better than none. And though I usually vote beyond the two main parties, I recognize that in this system, any progress is better than regression, and that's the blue vs. red choice. Xers are supposed to be pragmatic. Those who are, put aside emotion and look at the facts and strategies of what will actually work.

Quote:The authors do describe a semi return to mom&pop business ideals...... I can't envision a world without walmart or home depot (not because I want them but because how hard is it to UNINSTALL such things after the fact?).  I'm a cynic in that I don't believe a global economic model can be stopped even though that is the source of so many ills in our American society.  We can't go back. 

We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve.  We can begin stopping things before they happen.  But the problem with that is no one wants to or can believe or understand the terrors waiting around the corner and do nothing to stop it.  America takes 50+ years to identify and believe a scam affecting millions.  It wasn't until 1992 and the movie JFK that people as a whole began to accept that was a plot to remove someone in power who would not cave to the Military Industrial Complex. 

Yes, we can stop it. "We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve." Yes. But if Xers such as you and beechnut are not willing to work and vote in alliance with blue boomers, it probably can't happen, because no generation can do what is needed to be done by itself without the others. Boomers still have a lot of the votes and the leadership, and there are good ones to work with.

No, your example of JFK does not fly. JFK was murdered by Oswald acting alone. All the facts on that are well proven, and open and shut. I looked into it myself very thoroughly. No case was ever more clear-cut. This was the granddaddy of today's conspiracy theories, and I once believed it too. But conspiracy theories today are almost all bogus, and contribute to cynicism that is destructive. The Establishment may be bad, but it is not as bad as people think who view the world through the lens of conspiracy theories. "9-11 truth" is another one that doesn't hold up entirely. There is no need to exaggerate using conspiracy theory. The facts are bad enough by themselves. We need to learn this. There's no need to debate JFK. People can look into it for themselves quite easily.

Quote:Further, remember all those JFK documents that were supposed to be released?  They keep getting pushed back.  Why?  Because Bush The First is still alive and the Bush family of that generation (Prescott, etc) have the blood on their hands.  Believe me, when Bush The First finally expires, we will finally find the connections (they've already been found but no mainstream media will touch it) and that's what I mean when the COURSE of American evil is identified too late, nothing can be done.  Even now, no one will say that CAPITALISM is causing major problems and Crisis in America.  The Corporation came before Bush II in 2008 and basically said "if you don't give us all the money we are asking for, there will be economic collapse".  How is that different from walking into a bank with a gun and demanding all the cash? 

They got away with it. The powers that be, including Xers, have not been willing to put the greedy ones in their place. I don't know to what extent millennials will do this.

Quote:Maybe it should have been allowed to collapse (if it was even real to begin with).  And who ended up with that money?  Was it filtered down to the average worker?  No.  It was supplied to executives and politicians for their golden parachutes and for their 7th yacht docked in the island of Scorpia.  What kind of America have we become in the last 70+ years?  Our leaders have no interest in what happens to us, they blatantly steal from us.

That's true. And it is mainly the Republicans who are responsible, although some Democrats are complicit. This is a matter of politics, for sure. Political policies created all this. It was deliberate. Business is not held accountable in the Republican trickle-down ideology. It is allowed to get away with anything. Progressive Democrats favor the regulations that were taken down which do prevent this crap from happening. Yes they do.

Quote:A really cool symbolism I heard was that there used to be SLAVERY.  Humans were used as basically cattle to perform tasks so the wealthy could be wealthy.  But there was a problem.  The slave owners had to feed and house their slaves.  So an innovation was made.  There are still slaves, except now, the slaves must feed and house THEMSELVES.  This wipes a huge expense off the slave-owners' bottom line.  Ridiculous rent, unbelievable housing prices, the cost of food and clothing, etc.  The slave is still SERVING except the Master no longer has to accommodate them on-site or assist their day-to-day living.  That's some REAL shit!

True enough, I'm in agreement.

I will come back to the rest of this post because there are good arguments.  But for now:

You said: The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.

The spiritual renaissance which sought desperately to not give birth to us so they could explore their selfish dreams and sexual fantasies, and the morals that made killing us in the womb legal.  So, if you guys had it your way, we wouldn't even exist and you would be frolicking in the poppy fields into elderhood with The Doors anthology on a loop.  

Just to be clear, YOU maybe got to explore your inner discovery.  WE got fast lessons on how to use a microwave and no one cared where we were after the sun went down.  Even your intimate knowledge of your own generation and what you feel it was meant to be possibly betrays you didn't even pay attention to what you guys did to your kids in the Nomad position. 

I realize not everyone is the same.  But for the most part, you ARE all pretty much the same to a point.  It's all about YOU.  

Nomad gets the shaft from in the womb forward, Boomer blames Nomad for everything they can, Millennial can't tell the difference and Artist is too busy handjobbing the Millennial to acknowledge the others.  Yet, I'm no complainer.

[TheNomad]

You said: JFK was murdered by Oswald acting alone.

Judith Vary Baker. When you have read her entire book "Me & Lee" you have touched the void. JFK will soon be exposed for what it was. But we will follow the same pattern and not know about 911 until 2075 or some bullshit. After everyone involved is dead, the families white-washed and the guilty can no longer be punished. When Bush The First expires and Ladybird Johnson's estate no longer pays lawyers to suppress the truth, we will see more than you know. STILL, 70+ years after the fact. Imagine if we could have believed in 911 truth a few years ago when we could have identified the company which months before the "attacks" performed extensive work to the super-structure causing the beams to slice at proper angles so it would fall straight down - a controlled demolition. There are lots of facts ignored on lots of things.

Everyone who saw the buildings fall saw them fall straight down. That's only alternate reality to people who do not like facts. Buildings hit by large objects do not fall straight down nor do they burn up from jet fuel that ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS CANNOT EVEN BURN SUCH METAL.

Reality? Alt Reality? I mean, does it matter anymore? We all choose to believe what we choose to believe.
No, we don't have to debate these things. It takes courage to believe you live in a world of lies and still function in it. "Be in the world but be not of it".

[TheNomad]

You said: Yes, we can stop it. "We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve." Yes. But if Xers such as you and beechnut are not willing to work and vote in alliance with blue boomers, it probably can't happen, because no generation can do what is needed to be done by itself without the others. Boomers still have a lot of the votes and the leadership, and there are good ones to work with.

I think you are missing everything I've been saying. Politics is ruled by Corporatocracy. We say we have a choice and do not. We say we are free and are not. on and on. The choices are provided for us. In the form of 2 sides. Often, those 2 sides have more in common than not. I mean, I don't care about secret frat boy masturbation rituals like Skin & Bone, but 2 candidates Kerry and Bush not only went to the same school but were members of the same secret pledge to circle-jerk each other's wealth for all eternity.

How do we stop hyper-capitalism?

How can we cease the malpractice of corporations on consumers?

How can anyone stop senators from from receiving money from corps that frak the land until EARTHQUAKES are now as common in Oklahoma as California?

How can anyone FORCE people to have morality when the mere thought of doing so means certain death to your career?

How can anyone balance the idea of a corporate executive raking millions annually while the average worker in the corp is instructed to seek welfare benefits from the government?

How can anyone be forced to take pride in their property whether residential or commercial? To clean it, tend it and be ashamed when it looks like a hovel in Volgograd?

How can anyone be forced to accept the idea of only 2 persons for an election when those 2 people are the only choices provided to them?

I have a lot more questions but it's boring.

You said: Cynicism can be a good thing, to a point; until it stops people from taking action, voting and participating. Then, it's not good. An idealistic pragmatic realism accepts the obvious truth that candidates won't do everything you want them to do. Incremental progress is better than none. And though I usually vote beyond the two main parties, I recognize that in this system, any progress is better than regression, and that's the blue vs. red choice. Xers are supposed to be pragmatic. Those who are, put aside emotion and look at the facts and strategies of what will actually work.

You participate in a system designed to disenfranchise anyone who does participate. You still believe the system is not broken. Well, it isn't broken................. it works really REALLY well. That's what you fail to understand.

You say progress is better than regression but the direction of American progress since WWII has been into incomprehensible rancor and deception. Nomads are pragmatic. We survived you as parents and older siblings. We are the main workforce during the heist of 2008 and we innovate and adapt better than any archetype. Yet, we are still blamed continually. The authors knew this well. We do "what will work" because if we don't, we might be homeless and lose everything. Not because we have the moral compass.

[TheNomad]

I asked this and will keep asking:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm perplexed by the fact that no one seems to acknowledge 911 as any part of the crisis whatsoever. Why is that? I'm starting to think some in this forum simply maybe didn't experience the aftermath of it or simply do not understand the implications of all that happened because of that. Everyone seems to agree that 2008 and the financial ruins is the crisis and yet we're waiting for War the second part of a crisis. Or that the order of the events of the crisis are wrong in that there must be a financial woe and only after that some big war. However we had those two things within six or seven years of each other we had Wars going on the same time as we had the financial crisis.

What's going on with that? Every time I ask that question no one seems to answer.

I'll say again it is almost as if the wars and complications of the aftermath of the wars were not large enough for significant enough to be considered a crisis element. And for anyone who believes that I want to hear what you have to say. I want to hear people say that the 911 wars and cultural impact in the Homeland were not significant enough to be considered part of the crisis.

[pbrower2a]

(06-02-2018, 11:41 PM)TheNomad Wrote: You said: JFK was murdered by Oswald acting alone.

Judith Vary Baker.  When you have read her entire book "Me & Lee" you have touched the void.  JFK will soon be exposed for what it was.  But we will follow the same pattern and not know about 911 until 2075 or some bullshit.  After everyone involved is dead, the families white-washed and the guilty can no longer be punished.  When Bush The First expires and Ladybird Johnson's estate no longer pays lawyers to suppress the truth, we will see more than you know.  STILL, 70+ years after the fact.  Imagine if we could have believed in 911 truth a few years ago when we could have identified the company which months before the "attacks" performed extensive work to the super-structure causing the beams to slice at proper angles so it would fall straight down - a controlled demolition.  There are lots of facts ignored on lots of things. 

We will never know what was going on in the murky mind of Lee Harvey Oswald, a man who could never form a wholesome bond with anything. He could not fit in in the USA, and he could not fit in in the USSR. If you want to claim that he was a KGB operative -- he was too untrustworthy for a high-risk, low-reward assassination. To claim that he was part of some right-wing plot to take down someone that Dallas-area participants in the right-wing lunatic fringe hated -- such was too risky for themselves for any involvement. As someone with no obvious moral certainties, he could go from one extreme to the other in his political views.

As reality proves, the Kennedy assassination was a demonic miracle. Had he not worn a back-brace to allow him a rigid posture, Kennedy would have been able to duck, saving his life.

Quote:Everyone who saw the buildings fall saw them fall straight down.  That's only alternate reality to people who do not like facts.  Buildings hit by large objects do not fall straight down nor do they burn up from jet fuel that ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS CANNOT EVEN BURN SUCH METAL.

The buildings pancaked. At 910C, structural iron loses most of its tensile strength, and any large mass above it can cause its easy collapse.  Jet fuel burns at temperatures above 910C, allowing iron exposed by the removal of such insulation that it has to get hot enough to soften and buckle. Controlled demolition? Yes, there were plenty of explosions, most of them the result of water boiling and destroying its many containers from toilets to soft-drink machines to water coolers to supply and drainage pipes. The same principle that allows a terrorist to make a horrible weapon out of a pressure cooker operated on objects as small as unopened soft drink containers.

Quote:Reality?  Alt Reality?  I mean, does it matter anymore?  We all choose to believe what we choose to believe.
No, we don't have to debate these things.  It takes courage to believe you live in a world of lies and still function in it.  "Be in the world but be not of it".

Not even mainstream science claims definitive truth in explaining most phenomena -- but if it isn't close enough, mainstream science is able to give a prediction of the reliability of a finding such as "Panacea 225 is shown to be safe and effective with a reliability of 95% or more". This said, mainstream science is more trustworthy than any other source of knowledge because of the rigors of the experimental method -- peer review, double-blind tests, and experimental controls. Science has its own ways of policing itself for incompetence, bias, and deceit as few other enterprises have.

I will take science over a gut feeling anytime.

[TheNomad]

(06-03-2018, 03:20 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 11:41 PM)TheNomad Wrote: You said: JFK was murdered by Oswald acting alone.

Judith Vary Baker.  When you have read her entire book "Me & Lee" you have touched the void.  JFK will soon be exposed for what it was.  But we will follow the same pattern and not know about 911 until 2075 or some bullshit.  After everyone involved is dead, the families white-washed and the guilty can no longer be punished.  When Bush The First expires and Ladybird Johnson's estate no longer pays lawyers to suppress the truth, we will see more than you know.  STILL, 70+ years after the fact.  Imagine if we could have believed in 911 truth a few years ago when we could have identified the company which months before the "attacks" performed extensive work to the super-structure causing the beams to slice at proper angles so it would fall straight down - a controlled demolition.  There are lots of facts ignored on lots of things. 

We will never know what was going on in the murky mind of Lee Harvey Oswald, a man who could never form a wholesome bond with anything. He could not fit in in the USA, and he could not fit in in the USSR. If you want to claim that he was a KGB operative -- he was too untrustworthy for a high-risk, low-reward assassination. To claim that he was part of some right-wing plot to take down someone that Dallas-area participants in the right-wing lunatic fringe hated -- such was too risky for themselves for any involvement. As someone with no obvious moral certainties, he could go from one extreme to the other in his political views.

As reality proves, the Kennedy assassination was a demonic miracle. Had he not worn a back-brace to allow him a rigid posture, Kennedy would have been able to duck, saving his life.

Quote:Everyone who saw the buildings fall saw them fall straight down.  That's only alternate reality to people who do not like facts.  Buildings hit by large objects do not fall straight down nor do they burn up from jet fuel that ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS CANNOT EVEN BURN SUCH METAL.

The buildings pancaked. At 910C, structural iron loses most of its tensile strength, and any large mass above it can cause its easy collapse.  Jet fuel burns at temperatures above 910C, allowing iron exposed by the removal of such insulation that it has to get hot enough to soften and buckle. Controlled demolition? Yes, there were plenty of explosions, most of them the result of water boiling and destroying its many containers from toilets to soft-drink machines to water coolers to supply and drainage pipes. The same principle that allows a terrorist to make a horrible weapon out of a pressure cooker operated on objects as small as unopened soft drink containers.  

Quote:Reality?  Alt Reality?  I mean, does it matter anymore?  We all choose to believe what we choose to believe.
No, we don't have to debate these things.  It takes courage to believe you live in a world of lies and still function in it.  "Be in the world but be not of it".

Not even mainstream science claims definitive truth in explaining most phenomena -- but if it isn't close enough, mainstream science is able to give a prediction of the reliability of a finding such as "Panacea 225 is shown to be safe and effective with a reliability of 95% or more". This said, mainstream science is more trustworthy than any other source of knowledge because of the rigors of the experimental method -- peer review, double-blind tests, and experimental controls. Science has its own ways of policing itself for incompetence, bias, and deceit as few other enterprises have.

I will take science over a gut feeling anytime.

You said: We will never know what was going on in the murky mind of Lee Harvey Oswald, a man who could never form a wholesome bond with anything. He could not fit in in the USA, and he could not fit in in the USSR. If you want to claim that he was a KGB operative -- he was too untrustworthy for a high-risk, low-reward assassination. To claim that he was part of some right-wing plot to take down someone that Dallas-area participants in the right-wing lunatic fringe hated -- such was too risky for themselves for any involvement. As someone with no obvious moral certainties, he could go from one extreme to the other in his political views. 

It is amazing you know so much about the man.  Did you ever meet him?  From where did you receive your intimate knowledge of him?  All the adjectives you used are also used for cult leaders, psychotics and the insane. 

Do you believe at all in the idea of propaganda?  Yes?  No?  Possibly?  "Official Narratives" are exactly that.  I suggested to another friend here to seek a book called Me & Lee by Judith Vary Baker.  She actually knew him; intimately.  And if you do not know her story, you know very little about JFK except what has been prepared for you to know in advance.

[pbrower2a]

(06-03-2018, 04:29 AM)TheNomad Wrote: (to me)

Quote:You said: We will never know what was going on in the murky mind of Lee Harvey Oswald, a man who could never form a wholesome bond with anything. He could not fit in in the USA, and he could not fit in in the USSR. If you want to claim that he was a KGB operative -- he was too untrustworthy for a high-risk, low-reward assassination. To claim that he was part of some right-wing plot to take down someone that Dallas-area participants in the right-wing lunatic fringe hated -- such was too risky for themselves for any involvement. As someone with no obvious moral certainties, he could go from one extreme to the other in his political views.

 

It is amazing you know so much about the man.  Did you ever meet him?  From where did you receive your intimate knowledge of him?  All the adjectives you used are also used for cult leaders, psychotics and the insane.

I have seen several documentaries about the JFK assassination. Much of the detail on Lee Harvey Oswald is already in the public domain, including his military record and his general movements.  He did buy a rifle  that he left behind at the Texas School Book Depository in his haste to leave. But let us remember that someone like Lee Harvey Oswald (if you lump him with "cult leaders, psychotics, and the insane") is more likely to be explained through his actions than through confessions about his inner self; besides, someone like him likely has little of an 'inner self' and would be either dishonest or simply wrong if he tried to examine his life. Someone who does what he has done will draw much attention. What is said about him is often confusing because it reflects a befuddled man who seems like just the sort to be so foolish as to believe that he could assassinate the President of the United States and get away with it.

Quote:Do you believe at all in the idea of propaganda?  Yes?  No?  Possibly?  "Official Narratives" are exactly that.  I suggested to another friend here to seek a book called Me & Lee by Judith Vary Baker.  She actually knew him; intimately.  And if you do not know her story, you know very little about JFK except what has been prepared for you to know in advance.

Intimate partners of those who do outrageous, incomprehensible deeds generally do not hear everything. Timothy McVeigh actually had a wife who may have no clue about why her late husband detonated a bomb in the Murrah Federal Building. Sane, decent people can spill more of their souls than can crazy, violent people who must act normal just to avoid trouble. Oswald's Russian-born wife, who could have known more about him than any person other than his mother has exposed little -- probably because Lee Harvey Oswald did not tell her what he was up to. Let us remember that the FBI is really good at getting people who have guilty (and not-so-guilty) knowledge to expose themselves and get them implicated or exonerate themselves and implicate someone else.

Marina Oswald has remained in the United States without enduring any penal term -- and if the FBI could connect her even to giving Lee Harvey Oswald any hints on any aspect of the crime, it would, and the courts would have given her a prison term. Meanwhile the INS would have gotten and followed directions to strip her of her US citizenship and deport her.

To be sure, I have never read Me & Lee by Judith Vary Baker. I have never even heard of it. Lee Harvey Oswald was a confused, angry loner and loser unable to connect to much or formulate any well-refined or stable beliefs.

Do I believe in propaganda? Certainly -- as by FoX "News", which I have lambasted as "the Propaganda Channel", "FoX Newspeak Channel", and GOP Pravda". Do I believe propaganda? I hope not, but even I can recognize propaganda  in such well-received feature films as Gone with the Wind (basically the slaves were child-like in their judgment and needed the stern management of owners and overseers to keep them from straying) and Casablanca (anyone who does not think himself fortunate to be in America is a fool; if you think you have problems, just think of what is going on in the Hell that is the Third Reich and its conquered or satellite countries).

This said, propaganda has its effectiveness, especially where alternatives are unavailable. But alternative views can be far more crazy than some ostensibly-plausible explanation. Some sources (like tabloid media) are inherently suspect. This said, we are near the opposite of the reality that one finds in North Korea, in which there is but one acceptable source of information. North Korean propaganda is ludicrous for its hackish content and techniques. Propaganda from the People's Republic of China is far more subtle, probably because China is far more open to outside news about anything outside China. Yes, I see much of the news that the Trump regime  (and face it, this Presidency is close to being a despotism or dictatorship) as propaganda -- incompetent propaganda whose disseminators fail to assess its impact upon the people that it derides.

The most effective propaganda comes from political and cultural leadership that understands the intended target very well and can adapt quickly. Goebbels? No. Falsehoods eventually caught up with him, as shown in the short You Nazty Spy and the cinematic masterpiece The Great Dictator. Think of the cinema bosses in America in the 1930s and early 1940s who had self-evident reason to expose how horrible the Nazis were... and the Churchill government. The really good propagandists are as adept at convincing outsiders as the inept ones (like the North Korean News or 'Comical Ali') are capable of proving their slavish loyalty to bosses who can have them killed. Of course, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, who is about as effective in convincing Americans not part of the Trump cult as 'Comical Ali' was capable of convincing Americans of any political stripe, does not fear being murdered.      

I am not going to guess what will be exposed when the findings of the Warren Commission are fully leaked. I'm guessing that much has been covered as a defense against defamation lawsuits or to protect sources or exonerated suspects. Maybe that explains why we have theories ranging from right-wing plotters in the Dallas-Fort Worth area to the CIA to the KGB and Fidel Castro. Consider the possible consequences of a linking of the Kennedy assassination to the KGB (over the Cuban Missile Crisis) -- World War III, anybody?