Does this Crisis echo the Glorious Revolutuon?

[Bill the Piper]

(02-18-2019, 03:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: However, all cultures and their peoples have their right to exist in peace as long as they don't break the laws, which are based on moral values. I dissent from any idea that such moral values are relative to time, evolution or culture. Their articulation in specific lists and rules may change, but not their essence.

But I don't think that such aesthetic or moral relativism is a prominent feature of the Left in politics. So I'm not sure what you mean.

I don't like the fact that Leftists refuse to condemn Islam, even if they ostensibly stand for atheism and rationalism.

Quote:I don't think you adwvocate culture-war religious-right efforts, but I agree with the Left of course on such issues as gay rights and government-sponsored religion in public places. Abortion is an issue that can be compromised, but that doesn't seem to be possible just now.

I could just say that I'd like to see the effects of sexual revolution reversed to some degree. The entertainment industry in particular needs to be purged. To some extent, reversing the sexual revolution requires the dominant ethos of individualism (which regards selfish pursuit of happiness as the goal of life) to die off, and new ethos of communitarianism to replace it. Parents staying together for their child's sake, even if they no longer get the thrills in bed. Like it was with the GIs and previous generations.

[David Horn]

(02-18-2019, 08:07 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- Eric, l think that as the Millies become more & more influential in the Govt & the Silents & then Boomers die off, this neolib crap will die off with them

Chiming in -- I have to disagree.  The entire justification for neoliberalism is the promotion of wealth, and that never totally goes out of style.  I do agree that the current round in this on again off again romance with the rich and famous will be off again very soon.  Eventually, it will return, just as it did this time.  Of course, as S&H predict, we'll be dead so it won't matter to us.

[David Horn]

(02-19-2019, 07:22 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(02-18-2019, 03:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: However, all cultures and their peoples have their right to exist in peace as long as they don't break the laws, which are based on moral values. I dissent from any idea that such moral values are relative to time, evolution or culture. Their articulation in specific lists and rules may change, but not their essence.

But I don't think that such aesthetic or moral relativism is a prominent feature of the Left in politics. So I'm not sure what you mean.

I don't like the fact that Leftists refuse to condemn Islam, even if they ostensibly stand for atheism and rationalism.

No religion of any stripe is evil in and of itself. It's only evil when practiced by evil people. Of course, religion is the prefect foil for the larcenous and power hungry. It's its own justification.

Bill the Piper Wrote:

Eric the Green Wrote:I don't think you advocate culture-war religious-right efforts, but I agree with the Left of course on such issues as gay rights and government-sponsored religion in public places. Abortion is an issue that can be compromised, but that doesn't seem to be possible just now.

I could just say that I'd like to see the effects of sexual revolution reversed to some degree. The entertainment industry in particular needs to be purged. To some extent, reversing the sexual revolution requires the dominant ethos of individualism (which regards selfish pursuit of happiness as the goal of life) to die off, and new ethos of communitarianism to replace it. Parents staying together for their child's sake, even if they no longer get the thrills in bed. Like it was with the GIs and previous generations.

I have to agree with much of this. The sexual revolution had far too many excesses to remain dominant in a less hyper-individualist society. Communalism is returning and some degree of puritanical ethos will return with it.

[Bill the Piper]

(02-19-2019, 11:35 AM)David Horn Wrote: No religion of any stripe is evil in and of itself.  It's only evil when practiced by evil people.  Of course, religion is the prefect foil for the larcenous and power hungry.  It's its own justification.

Mohammed was a warlord who beheaded a poet for mocking him. He also had sex with a 9-year-old, which means evil by most civilized societies' definition. (I think Mo might have had schizotypy, a mental disorder characterized by magical thinking, paranoid fears and egocentric misperceptions of reality.) Islam commands its adherents to imitate Mohammed, so it's evil. Of course most Muslims don't really imitate Mo, they just follow their culture. It would be absurd to say that "the Muslim community" is evil, but Islam as a body of ideas is.

[Eric the Green]

(02-19-2019, 11:35 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 07:22 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(02-18-2019, 03:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: However, all cultures and their peoples have their right to exist in peace as long as they don't break the laws, which are based on moral values. I dissent from any idea that such moral values are relative to time, evolution or culture. Their articulation in specific lists and rules may change, but not their essence.

But I don't think that such aesthetic or moral relativism is a prominent feature of the Left in politics. So I'm not sure what you mean.

I don't like the fact that Leftists refuse to condemn Islam, even if they ostensibly stand for atheism and rationalism.

No religion of any stripe is evil in and of itself.  It's only evil when practiced by evil people.  Of course, religion is the prefect foil for the larcenous and power hungry.  It's its own justification.

Bill the Piper Wrote:

Eric the Green Wrote:I don't think you advocate culture-war religious-right efforts, but I agree with the Left of course on such issues as gay rights and government-sponsored religion in public places. Abortion is an issue that can be compromised, but that doesn't seem to be possible just now.

I could just say that I'd like to see the effects of sexual revolution reversed to some degree. The entertainment industry in particular needs to be purged. To some extent, reversing the sexual revolution requires the dominant ethos of individualism (which regards selfish pursuit of happiness as the goal of life) to die off, and new ethos of communitarianism to replace it. Parents staying together for their child's sake, even if they no longer get the thrills in bed. Like it was with the GIs and previous generations.

I have to agree with much of this.  The sexual revolution had far too many excesses to remain dominant in a less hyper-individualist society.  Communalism is returning and some degree of puritanical ethos will return with it.

It seems to be happening. I have mixed opinions and feelings about it. The me too movement is a new puritanism that, though needed to an extent, often goes too far, IMO. Personally, I think a healthy society needs both individualism and communitarianism; they are both wonderful and necessary aspects of a fulfilling society. But I understand that, since the USA and other societies are largely dysfunctional, things move in cycles and go from reaction to reaction. A gradual process of real growth would be the best we can hope for amid these unfortunate cycles, which as we know move from 2Ts/3Ts to 4Ts/1Ts and back.

I disagree with your view of Mohammed and Islam, Bill. As a member of the Left, I also refuse to condemn them, and assert that the horrors of terrorist fundamentalism are the views and actions of extremists that have some appeal in oppressed societies. I agree that action needs to be taken to restrain and if necessary capture perpetrators of evil, and to counteract extremist fundamentalism by such efforts as taking down their websites and countering their propaganda.

From my point of view, I feel somewhat (at least) alienated in a society where people are close-minded and rigidly dogmatic, as older Americans seem to be, and too quick to condemn and ostracize people rather than forgive and help them learn what they need to learn. And the neo-liberals have succeeded in stopping the Awakening, and thus keeping our noses to the grindstone of imposed poverty and the rat race of phony desire and ambition, instead of self-actualization and communitarian idealism. If the neo-liberals could hook some people with hopes for better sex lives and cool parties with cool people, as well as expensive cars and neat entertaining tech devices, then that helps keep their noses down and the race going so the people can want and make more money to get those things.

[Bill the Piper]

(02-19-2019, 05:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I disagree with your view of Mohammed and Islam, Bill. As a member of the Left, I also refuse to condemn them, and assert that the horrors of terrorist fundamentalism are the views and actions of extremists that have some appeal in oppressed societies. I agree that action needs to be taken to restrain and if necessary capture perpetrators of evil, and to counteract extremist fundamentalism by such efforts as taking down their websites and countering their propaganda.

So you disagree that Mohammed was wrong to call for murdering people and to have sex with a 9-year-old? Wouldn't you condemn an American evangelical preacher doing the same things? I'm sure you would. So they are evil in 2019. Would you condemn the evangelical if he committed these crimes in 1949? I'm sure you would. So they were evil in 1949 as well. At which point between 649 and 1949 it ceased to be OK to call for murder and have sex with a child?

Moral shortcomings are by no means unique to Islam. Some natural religions in Africa and Melanesia involved ritual cannibalism. Philistine and Aztec religions required mass human sacrifice. The fact remains, that among extant faiths it's Islam that causes the most problems. Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Christianity are probably the most morally evolved creeds, and it's Christians (maybe especially the British Empire) who suppressed bloody customs all over the world. I'm sure that if there was a Buddhist superpower, it would do the same.

The Left was more ready to criticize Islam after 2006, following the release of God Delusion by Dawkins. I thought it's slowly going back to its pre-1968 self, to cosmopolitanism and rationalism. But around 2015 anti-immigrant populism grew stronger, and since the Left could NOT allow itself to agree with its attacks on Islam, they went back to defending the religion.

BTW to criticize Islam doesn't require one to oppose Muslim immigration to Western Democracies. But the migrants should be required to adopt to Western lifestyle, rather than isolate themselves and cling to shariah.

If you bring up oppression - Polish people were oppressed by the Reds, but they didn't blow themselves up, but migrated to the UK and America to seek constructive employment.

[Marypoza]

(02-19-2019, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-18-2019, 08:07 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- Eric, l think that as the Millies become more & more influential in the Govt & the Silents & then Boomers die off, this neolib crap will die off with them

Chiming in -- I have to disagree.  The entire justification for neoliberalism is the promotion of wealth, and that never totally goes out of style.  I do agree that the current round in this on again off again romance with the rich and famous will be off again very soon.  Eventually, it will return, just as it did this time.  Of course, as S&H predict, we'll be dead so it won't matter to us.

-- well that's what l meant. I guess l should of added 4 the time bring. It will raise it's ugly head in a future saecula

[Bill the Piper]

(02-20-2019, 10:56 AM)Marypoza Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-18-2019, 08:07 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- Eric, l think that as the Millies become more & more influential in the Govt & the Silents & then Boomers die off, this neolib crap will die off with them

Chiming in -- I have to disagree.  The entire justification for neoliberalism is the promotion of wealth, and that never totally goes out of style.  I do agree that the current round in this on again off again romance with the rich and famous will be off again very soon.  Eventually, it will return, just as it did this time.  Of course, as S&H predict, we'll be dead so it won't matter to us.

-- well that's what l meant. I guess l should of added 4 the time bring. It will raise it's ugly head in a future saecula

The editors at Orion's Arm foresee this geekery to be extant in the year 12000:

https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45cd3bb5026a4

Let's hope there will also be a Utopia Sphere to move into:

https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45ce5133c0d94

In real life, everybody save some libertarian freaks would move from the Non-Coercive Zone into the Utopia Sphere, eventually making liberalism a fringe ideology at best.

[Marypoza]

(02-20-2019, 01:53 PM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(02-20-2019, 10:56 AM)Marypoza Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-18-2019, 08:07 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- Eric, l think that as the Millies become more & more influential in the Govt & the Silents & then Boomers die off, this neolib crap will die off with them

Chiming in -- I have to disagree.  The entire justification for neoliberalism is the promotion of wealth, and that never totally goes out of style.  I do agree that the current round in this on again off again romance with the rich and famous will be off again very soon.  Eventually, it will return, just as it did this time.  Of course, as S&H predict, we'll be dead so it won't matter to us.

-- well that's what l meant. I guess l should of added 4 the time bring. It will raise it's ugly head in a future saecula

The editors at Orion's Arm foresee this geekery to be extant in the year 12000:

https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45cd3bb5026a4

Let's hope there will also be a Utopia Sphere to move into:

https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45ce5133c0d94

In real life, everybody save some libertarian freaks would move from the Non-Coercive Zone into the Utopia Sphere, eventually making liberalism a fringe ideology at best.

-- those non-coersives sound like a bunch of Ferengis

[sbarrera]

(02-19-2019, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote: Of course, as S&H predict, we'll be dead

I don't think you need S&H theory to make this prediction... 

[Eric the Green]

(02-20-2019, 08:27 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 05:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I disagree with your view of Mohammed and Islam, Bill. As a member of the Left, I also refuse to condemn them, and assert that the horrors of terrorist fundamentalism are the views and actions of extremists that have some appeal in oppressed societies. I agree that action needs to be taken to restrain and if necessary capture perpetrators of evil, and to counteract extremist fundamentalism by such efforts as taking down their websites and countering their propaganda.

So you disagree that Mohammed was wrong to call for murdering people and to have sex with a 9-year-old? Wouldn't you condemn an American evangelical preacher doing the same things? I'm sure you would. So they are evil in 2019. Would you condemn the evangelical if he committed these crimes in 1949? I'm sure you would. So they were evil in 1949 as well. At which point between 649 and 1949 it ceased to be OK to call for murder and have sex with a child?

Moral shortcomings are by no means unique to Islam. Some natural religions in Africa and Melanesia involved ritual cannibalism. Philistine and Aztec religions required mass human sacrifice. The fact remains, that among extant faiths it's Islam that causes the most problems. Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Christianity are probably the most morally evolved creeds, and it's Christians (maybe especially the British Empire) who suppressed bloody customs all over the world. I'm sure that if there was a Buddhist superpower, it would do the same.

The Left was more ready to criticize Islam after 2006, following the release of God Delusion by Dawkins. I thought it's slowly going back to its pre-1968 self, to cosmopolitanism and rationalism. But around 2015 anti-immigrant populism grew stronger, and since the Left could NOT allow itself to agree with its attacks on Islam, they went back to defending the religion.

BTW to criticize Islam doesn't require one to oppose Muslim immigration to Western Democracies. But the migrants should be required to adopt to Western lifestyle, rather than isolate themselves and cling to shariah.

If you bring up oppression - Polish people were oppressed by the Reds, but they didn't blow themselves up, but migrated to the UK and America to seek constructive employment.

Condemning whole religions is definitely something that belongs in the days of old. Islam teaches peace and morality. Your quotes from Mohammed are out of context. Jihad means the fight against the evil within ourselves. Mohammed was way ahead of his time, and far ahead of most Islam today by honoring women and their freedom. 

Islam caused FAR less problems toward others in its history than Judaism and Christianity have. It was more tolerant of the religions of the people they conquered than were Christians, or than the Jews were who burned down cities in the Biblical accounts, or even today in the genocidal behavior of Israel. Islam was well-behaved and tolerant until Israel oppressed the region and inspired a revolt among militants. Fundamentalism is one of the banes of our time, and it affects more than one religion today.

The God Delusion is the work of a supremely-deluded materialist. He was never the voice of The Left. The Left post-1968 is the real New Left; the old Left was captive of industrialism, scientism and collectivism. The Left that emerged in the sixties recognizes that quality of life, the environment, peace, and contemplation, are values just as important as basic survival needs and equal distribution. It recognized that diversity and respect for all peoples of all religions is basic decency, and that humanity and earth are one and interdependent whether we recognize it or not.

But there was a violent strain in the late/post-sixties Left that inspired militant movements in Europe and the Middle East. The old Left used strikes, unions, political power and occasional violent mass uprisings to gain power, including in Poland in circa 1953. The New Left uses people power when it can, and sometimes politics and activism, but when frustrated, some militants since the sixties have turned to riots or terrorism. This also happened sometimes before as well, however. Turn of the century anarchists, 19th century occasional assassins, riots, etc.

Sharia law is not the law in American and Western society, and Islamic migrants of course should recognize that. Sharia Law is counterfeit Islam anyway, and should not be recognized in Islamic societies either, although it's not America's role to impose our ways upon them.

[David Horn]

(02-24-2019, 06:00 PM)sbarrera Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote: Of course, as S&H predict, we'll be dead

I don't think you need S&H theory to make this prediction... 

It's good to keep things in perspective.  

[Marypoza]

(02-24-2019, 07:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-20-2019, 08:27 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 05:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I disagree with your view of Mohammed and Islam, Bill. As a member of the Left, I also refuse to condemn them, and assert that the horrors of terrorist fundamentalism are the views and actions of extremists that have some appeal in oppressed societies. I agree that action needs to be taken to restrain and if necessary capture perpetrators of evil, and to counteract extremist fundamentalism by such efforts as taking down their websites and countering their propaganda.

So you disagree that Mohammed was wrong to call for murdering people and to have sex with a 9-year-old? Wouldn't you condemn an American evangelical preacher doing the same things? I'm sure you would. So they are evil in 2019. Would you condemn the evangelical if he committed these crimes in 1949? I'm sure you would. So they were evil in 1949 as well. At which point between 649 and 1949 it ceased to be OK to call for murder and have sex with a child?

Moral shortcomings are by no means unique to Islam. Some natural religions in Africa and Melanesia involved ritual cannibalism. Philistine and Aztec religions required mass human sacrifice. The fact remains, that among extant faiths it's Islam that causes the most problems. Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Christianity are probably the most morally evolved creeds, and it's Christians (maybe especially the British Empire) who suppressed bloody customs all over the world. I'm sure that if there was a Buddhist superpower, it would do the same.

The Left was more ready to criticize Islam after 2006, following the release of God Delusion by Dawkins. I thought it's slowly going back to its pre-1968 self, to cosmopolitanism and rationalism. But around 2015 anti-immigrant populism grew stronger, and since the Left could NOT allow itself to agree with its attacks on Islam, they went back to defending the religion.

BTW to criticize Islam doesn't require one to oppose Muslim immigration to Western Democracies. But the migrants should be required to adopt to Western lifestyle, rather than isolate themselves and cling to shariah.

If you bring up oppression - Polish people were oppressed by the Reds, but they didn't blow themselves up, but migrated to the UK and America to seek constructive employment.

Condemning whole religions is definitely something that belongs in the days of old. Islam teaches peace and morality. Your quotes from Mohammed are out of context. Jihad means the fight against the evil within ourselves. Mohammed was way ahead of his time, and far ahead of most Islam today by honoring women and their freedom. 

Islam caused FAR less problems toward others in its history than Judaism and Christianity have. It was more tolerant of the religions of the people they conquered than were Christians, or than the Jews were who burned down cities in the Biblical accounts, or even today in the genocidal behavior of Israel. Islam was well-behaved and tolerant until Israel oppressed the region and inspired a revolt among militants. Fundamentalism is one of the banes of our time, and it affects more than one religion today.

The God Delusion is the work of a supremely-deluded materialist. He was never the voice of The Left. The Left post-1968 is the real New Left; the old Left was captive of industrialism, scientism and collectivism. The Left that emerged in the sixties recognizes that quality of life, the environment, peace, and contemplation, are values just as important as basic survival needs and equal distribution. It recognized that diversity and respect for all peoples of all religions is basic decency, and that humanity and earth are one and interdependent whether we recognize it or not.

But there was a violent strain in the late/post-sixties Left that inspired militant movements in Europe and the Middle East. The old Left used strikes, unions, political power and occasional violent mass uprisings to gain power, including in Poland in circa 1953. The New Left uses people power when it can, and sometimes politics and activism, but when frustrated, some militants since the sixties have turned to riots or terrorism. This also happened sometimes before as well, however. Turn of the century anarchists, 19th century occasional assassins, riots, etc.

Sharia law is not the law in American and Western society, and Islamic migrants of course should recognize that. Sharia Law is counterfeit Islam anyway, and should not be recognized in Islamic societies either, although it's not America's role to impose our ways upon them.

-- but we do anyhow

[Hintergrund]

(02-24-2019, 07:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Sharia law is not the law in American and Western society, and Islamic migrants of course should recognize that.

<sarcasm>Good luck with that.

(02-24-2019, 07:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Sharia Law is counterfeit Islam anyway, and should not be recognized in Islamic societies either

Ha! Try telling that to a Muslim, let's see whether you get out alive. You're such a fool. You think the Muslims were our friends, and even radical islamists were just misunderstood, but you don't notice that you're insulting them worse than some racists using the term "sand n****r".

[Eric the Green]

(03-23-2019, 08:28 PM)Hintergrund Wrote:

(02-24-2019, 07:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Sharia law is not the law in American and Western society, and Islamic migrants of course should recognize that.

<sarcasm>Good luck with that.

(02-24-2019, 07:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Sharia Law is counterfeit Islam anyway, and should not be recognized in Islamic societies either

Ha! Try telling that to a Muslim, let's see whether you get out alive. You're such a fool. You think the Muslims were our friends, and even radical islamists were just misunderstood, but you don't notice that you're insulting them worse than some racists using the term "sand n****r".

Muslims are just people. Yes there are crazy, angry Muslims today. They are not misunderstood; they are deceived. Their terrorism and violence should not be tolerated. Sharia Law is counterfeit Islam. Muslim Americans don't live under it, and don't recognize it, except for a few fanatics who blow things up and get all the press. 

Muslims have been better friends than Christians over the years toward other religions. That is a fact, which has changed only in the age of Israel. If you are prejudiced against Muslims, then who's the fool? Freedom of religion is an essential human value, and so is respect for people who hold other creeds than one's own. You disagree, I take it. Good luck with that.

[Eric the Green]

(02-20-2019, 10:56 AM)Marypoza Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-18-2019, 08:07 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- Eric, l think that as the Millies become more & more influential in the Govt & the Silents & then Boomers die off, this neolib crap will die off with them

Chiming in -- I have to disagree.  The entire justification for neoliberalism is the promotion of wealth, and that never totally goes out of style.  I do agree that the current round in this on again off again romance with the rich and famous will be off again very soon.  Eventually, it will return, just as it did this time.  Of course, as S&H predict, we'll be dead so it won't matter to us.

-- well that's what l meant. I guess l should of added 4 the time bring. It will raise it's ugly head in a future saecula

Neo-liberalism was out of date the moment it was hatched. But then, we still see prejudice against religions even on this board. So, it appears that progress is uneven. Mr. Parker and Dr. King said that the arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice. That is an article of faith for all those of a liberal progressive spirit. And if it's true, then unjust ideologies like neo-liberalism and prejudice against races and creeds will die out eventually.

Have we really progressed? I was thinking about the spiral dynamics v-memes yesterday, and how to reconcile them with modern brutality, prejudice, destruction and war greater even than in ancient times, even as we have seen greater invention, more spiritual awareness, and the extension of human rights and prosperity to more people.

I use the planets as a symbol of this evolution, and in our last 2 1/2 centuries we have moved into the Orange Uranus liberal progress meme, the Lemon Neptune socialist meme, and the Green Pluto meme. The spiral dynamics folks also speak of Yellow integral and Turquoise holistic/mystical, as many more smaller and manifold minor planets have been revealed. 

Sometimes I keep going once I start on one of these mental historical excursions....

Before the great Revolution of the late 18th century, We lived in a traditional society bound within a horizon of established norms and powers. There was no democracy, little free enterprise, lots of ignorance about other folks, a worldview limited to what was known to the senses and believed from scriptures, and so on. 

But we did evolve slowly through the memes, colors and planets. It's a fascinating scheme. In the Beige Moon era we had little more than extended families and a few crafts, but we started moving around the globe. In the Purple Mercury meme we joined into tribes and developed language, myth and magic and became expert hunters and ritual cave painters. In the Pink Venus meme we developed agriculture and animal herding, built stone monuments, and studied the stars and seasons and aligned our cities with them. We worshiped and sacrificed to the gods and the goddess of fertility. In the Red Mars meme the guys became full-time warriors led by lords and emperors using strategy and the weapons and tools of bronze and iron. The rulers and their architects built temples with graceful columns and working aqueducts to stabilize their empires. In the Blue Jupiter meme the emperors became religious and the soldiers learned chivalry, as the Church became the first estate and the leading power. Faith was uppermost, and was expressed in great cathedrals. Finally, we reached the Brown Saturn meme when the kings and the second estate organized dynastic secular (but church-supporting) states within definite boundaries for people with a common language, and scientists and artists portrayed realistically the visible world. Each meme brought the previous ones to more advanced levels within themselves.

[Eric the Green]

But with the advent of the Revolution, which in a sense is now the permanent state of humanity, we have discovered the invisible and have gained access to the powers they reveal. We have learned to challenge authority and build new societies from the ground up, as well as rediscovered the wonders of nature beyond our human-constructed walls. But in a sense, though these planets, and the invisible energies and ideals they represent, are known to us now, they are still invisible. That means that many people, perhaps the great majority, still live within the traditional horizons, and powerful elites can still rule over them. In a way, we have fulfilled Nietzsche's recommendation that humans should become greater and more evil. The more we have progressed toward freedom and equality, with many more opportunities and prosperity for all, the more we have descended into the worst holocausts and terrors in history. Maybe the Reign of Terror was an early symbol and cautionary tale of what our liberation would unleash. Our best and our worst have come forth, and these worst manifestations seem to be our prods to bring out our best, in order to defeat the beasts and bring out our angels.

So the Orange Uranus meme brought the industrial revolution that transformed civilization into a workshop, with attendant benefits and horrors. Liberated business enterprise (the third estate) flourished, and democracy and human rights were instituted, but only after many setbacks which continue today. We discovered the invisible, as in the powers of electricity and the invisible radiation spectrum, in hypnotism and magnetic healing, and in transcendental and idealistic thought; and yet we continued to be slaves to limiting ideas of oligarchy, materialism and technology. So, being an invisible planet, the Orange meme is forever unfolding, it seems. Liberty requires ongoing vigilance, and is itself often corrupted into ideologies like neo-liberalism-- the worship of free enterprise over all other values despite its ruthless exploitation of the people.

The Lemon Neptune meme brought awareness of humanitarian concern into society for the first time in the mid-19th century. From then through the 20th century, socialist ideas expanded, giving the industrial working class more freedom from the bosses and providing more economic protection for the masses of people. With the value of society and its needs placed above the individual, a myriad of compassionate altruistic social causes multiplied, but the Lemon meme also often degenerated into collectivist societies that submerged people as cogs in the machine and members of warring groups, and thus enabled the worst tyrannies that have ever existed, and allowed the environment to be plundered without mercy. The full potential of invisible Neptune as a key to expanded consciousness of mystical oneness remains the preoccupation of a minority.

The Green Pluto meme has come to us since the 1960s, bringing awareness of interdependence. Ecology is its great symbol, as environmental awareness has made us more sensitive to the threats our industry and materialist lifestyle and philosophy poses to our survival. As the Pluto-Charon interdependency meme unfolds, we need to liberate ourselves from group-think, yet also respect the needs and diversity of the people together on one restored, living planet. As with Orange/Uranus and Lemon/Neptune, it takes time for our invisible Pluto energies and ideals to unfold. We are regressing as fully as we are advancing today, as we question both socialism and classic liberalism, seek a greater future but also want to restore or bring back the past. We unleash irrepressible nano-scale high tech and AI, and yet seek for a natural way of life that restores wonder and liberates us from all our stultifying traditions and fears so that we can live free and be creative and fulfilled and unfold human potential for perhaps the first time, powered by new age and counter-cultural, culture-creative trends.

Over these, the philosophers of spiral dynamics have identified the Yellow Integral and Turquoise Holistic "higher tier" memes. They say they have started to come into society since the 1990s. As a second tier, I think of them as having always existed, expressing through each of the earlier memes, but not very clearly, rather than as a new phase of rulership and dominant values they bring. They are too over-arching and general, and too evident throughout history, to be separate memes. Both are highly spiritual, but the Yellow accents the individual soul as a holon within the whole. Yellow sees all the memes flowing together up and down the spiral, and as we regress through them in reactionary modern trends, we can restore them and update them too. Yellow respects the hierarchy of excellence, and to some extent is an answer to the post-modern Green Pluto meme which tended to put everything on the same level. I can see Yellow reflected "below" in the bright-colored memes like the individualist Orange liberty and achievement meme and the Red warrior imperial meme, and to some extent is reflected in the animist beliefs and language development of Purple/Mercury. Turquoise is often said to represent the higher consciousness of mysticism and respect for wholeness, without submerging the individual in it. We can see it emerging in the memes of similar colors, like Green and Lemon, in which new age and new thought ideas emerged, as if Turquoise was speaking through them. In traditional times, the divine consciousness was expressed through the Blue meme of authoritarian religion and rule by the church, and yet all the religions of the world were founded by great mystics and have transmitted their esoteric teachings to us through the ages.

more at http://philosopherswheel.com/planetarydynamics.html

[Tim Randal Walker]

King Phillips War

[galaxy]

(09-18-2021, 08:38 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: King Phillips War

?

[beechnut79]

(02-19-2019, 07:22 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(02-18-2019, 03:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: However, all cultures and their peoples have their right to exist in peace as long as they don't break the laws, which are based on moral values. I dissent from any idea that such moral values are relative to time, evolution or culture. Their articulation in specific lists and rules may change, but not their essence.

But I don't think that such aesthetic or moral relativism is a prominent feature of the Left in politics. So I'm not sure what you mean.

I don't like the fact that Leftists refuse to condemn Islam, even if they ostensibly stand for atheism and rationalism.

Quote:I don't think you adwvocate culture-war religious-right efforts, but I agree with the Left of course on such issues as gay rights and government-sponsored religion in public places. Abortion is an issue that can be compromised, but that doesn't seem to be possible just now.

I could just say that I'd like to see the effects of sexual revolution reversed to some degree. The entertainment industry in particular needs to be purged. To some extent, reversing the sexual revolution requires the dominant ethos of individualism (which regards selfish pursuit of happiness as the goal of life) to die off, and new ethos of communitarianism to replace it. Parents staying together for their child's sake, even if they no longer get the thrills in bed. Like it was with the GIs and previous generations.

Duh! The sexual revolution has already been reversed to a great degree, beginning with the AIDS scare in the mid-1980s. And if the dual crackdowns on sexual harassment are not evidence of even greater reprisal (dual meaning Round 1 in the Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill affair, and round 2 being the #MeToo movement which snared the likes of Cosby, Weinstein, et al), then I don't know what would qualify. Still I believe individual choice should apply, and hope that before my life is over I can see legalization or at least decriminalization of sex work in controlled situations. After all, didn't we learn a century ago that prohibition doesn't work?