Rise Of Tribalism, Racism & Bigotry Most Associated With Which Turning & Why?

[TheNomad]

When is bigotry and racism or hatred and tribalism happening most in American civilization according to past Turnings?

In what Turning (of the four laid out by S&H) are these things happening the most?

Why does it seem that America always descends into factions during certain Turnings?  The idea of building walls and "grouping up" seems to make sense to many while in that period.  Folks are more willing to be against others and have no desire to "meld" with neighbors. 

When this is happening, is it a peak idea we can look at as to WHEN certain Turnings are happening?

Such as:

Where inside the Turning we are.  Beginning?  Middle?  End?  Does it correlate directly to the Turning?  When these things are at the societal zenith, we might be right in the Middle.  Or, if we see it happening, the Beginning.  Or, if it is getting resolved, the End?

[pbrower2a]

Racism is hardly new to America, going back to colonial times. English settlers had varying attitudes toward First Peoples, ranging from patronizing to warlike. Chattel slavery had effects lingering to this day.

Even among whites, tribalism was the norm in the times of mass immigration. Decendants of colonial-era settlers loathed the Irish immigrants of the mid-19th century, and the irish often clashed with free blacks over economic roles. WASP elites were more sympathetic to German and Scandinavian settlers, but not to the largely-Catholic immigrants from southern and eastern Europe, let alone the Jews.

The remarkable aspect of American tribalism is not that traces of it exist; it is that it abated during the last completed Crisis Era. Labor unions on the rise in the 1930s wanted solidarity across ethnic lines that would make the efforts of Big business to pit one ethnic group against another impossible. Non-WASP individuals made rank during the Second World War, and it was obviously unwise to tell a Polish joke to "Colonel Kowalski". Jewish successes in enterprise, cultural creativity, and the professions made them useful. Above all, America's greatest enemies in World War II showed beyond any doubt that ethnic and religious bigotry pose extreme danger to democracy and the survival of innocent people that bigots treat as pariahs.

Ethnic and religious bigotry are most likely to flourish were populations are more monolithic or where a heritage of ethnic bigotry is entrenched in the culture. It is hard to imagine Google searches for a vile smear of black people that rhymes with the name of Roy Rogers' horse, but in 2008 West Virginia led in the number of such searches per capita. West Virginia has a small percentage of blacks, and, yes, the state is in deep economic distress as the coal mines are worked out. West Virginia used to be one of the strongest Democratic states, the sort that went to the Republican party only in electoral blowouts. The powerful United Mine Workers' Union was able to get out the vote for Democratic pols until the 1990s, and millions were surprised as the state went to Dubya in a close election. As economic distress becomes the norm, bigotry and tribalism flourish.

[Kinser79]

Bigotry and Tribalism are part of the human condition and exist outside of the Turning System.

That being said having lived in the Rural Midwest, and the Urban Midwest as well as the suburban South PBR is wrong as usual. I actually experenced the most racism in highly diverse areas where "multiculturalism" (really anti-culture) was the norm. The more monolithic the culture of the area (black or white) the less the prevalence of racism.

I believe this is due to the fact that diversity + proximity = war.

[pbrower2a]

Diversity + proximity = war? Then explain Switzerland. OK, so Switzerland is too bourgeois for that sort of thing. Now what about all the civil wars that have erupted in India between Muslims and Hindus since 1950 outside of Jammu and Kashmir. Ethnic strife has been rare between white Anglos and Hispanics in America, West Side Story notwithstanding. Diversity + proximity = war? Only when the divergent communities are veritable gangs. If you think that diversity + proximity = war, try Vancouver, where the disparate people differ less by skin color than anything else. That's right -- Europeans and Chinese. OK, so white Canadians and Chinese-Canadians share a desire for order, a respect for the value of education, and prosperity.

I can't discern a real difference between the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland by physiognomy, speech patterns, and surnames -- yet there has been much strife in recent decades.

Decent societies effectively repress civil strife. Their leaders do not egg it on. They see violent strife for the crime that it is and take the side of law and order. Do the crime, do the time.

The hazards of multiculturalism are myth. Most of us pick and choose in everything from cuisine to music. I don't have to be Japanese to appreciate Hokusai, I don't have to be Italian to appreciate Puccini, and I don't have to be Russian to appreciate Tolstoy. I need not be Greek to tell anyone that wise people read Plato because has says so much that had to be said by someone for the first time.

What composer wrote such soulful music, at times with powerful rhythms that nobody could surpass irrespective of genre? Need one be white to appreciate Bach, let alone have lived in his time?








Heck, I've seen cranky theories that J S Bach was really a black man. Would I care if such were so? Not in the least.

It is not until the era of jazz that people start using Bach's strange but masterful tricks of melodic lines. Example:






 Unlikely pairing? Maybe. Cultural achievement and appreciation is not 'in the blood', or as we would say today, in the DNA. 

I have my idea of what constitutes genius -- breaking the rules and getting something wonderful and even obvious after the fact as with J S Bach. Insanity is breaking the rules, getting bad results, and pretending that the results are wonderful, as with Donald Trump.

[TheNomad]

[quote dateline='1556924283']
HELEN WILLISBigotry and Tribalism are part of the human condition and exist outside of the Turning System.

That being said having lived in the Rural Midwest, and the Urban Midwest as well as the suburban South PBR is wrong as usual.  I actually experenced the most racism in highly diverse areas where "multiculturalism" (really anti-culture) was the norm.  The more monolithic the culture of the area (black or white) the less the prevalence of racism.

I believe this is due to the fact that diversity + proximity = war.
[/quote]

Nothing exists outside the Turning System.  How is that possible?  The Turning System is simply a scientific examination of information.  Since science is an examination of that which exists, all that exists is within the scope of the examination.

"diversity + proximity = war"

Really?  Any time folks from a different background live in close proximity, there is war?  Maybe that is because one side wants nothing to do with the other -- while that OTHER side is only trying to survive.  In some periods of history that is called Genocide.  

But it's known you have issues with integration unless it is on yo own terms.  That's a whole different thread/forum and possibly REALITY.

However, probably the fundamental REALITY on which America exists is DIVERSITY.  If you have forgotten what that means since crossing the Fence, that means folks of all different backgrounds coming together and MELDING.  It's the actual spine of America. 

Xenophobia is the opposite of America.  If you want to know what is America, turn off Chris Rock and "Daddy" and google Statue Of Liberty Inscription".  Now feel free to misrepresent and skew that inscription, but most of us know we are living in times of dual realities.  The difference with me?  I see both realities.  Many do not.  Therefore, they cannot meet in truth in reality with others.  They can only exist in the reality where THEY WIN.

[TheNomad]

(05-03-2019, 09:44 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Racism is hardly new to America

Yet, this thread is not about cataloguing and poring over American historicities of racism.  It is about WHAT TURNING seems to manifest Tribalism, Racism and Bigotry the most and why.

[pbrower2a]

(05-03-2019, 08:12 PM)TheNomad Wrote: [quote dateline='1556924283']
HELEN WILLISBigotry and Tribalism are part of the human condition and exist outside of the Turning System.

That being said having lived in the Rural Midwest, and the Urban Midwest as well as the suburban South PBR is wrong as usual.  I actually experenced the most racism in highly diverse areas where "multiculturalism" (really anti-culture) was the norm.  The more monolithic the culture of the area (black or white) the less the prevalence of racism.

I believe this is due to the fact that diversity + proximity = war.

Nothing exists outside the Turning System.  How is that possible?  The Turning System is simply a scientific examination of information.  Since science is an examination of that which exists, all that exists is within the scope of the examination.

"diversity + proximity = war"

Really?  Any time folks from a different background live in close proximity, there is war?  Maybe that is because one side wants nothing to do with the other -- while that OTHER side is only trying to survive.  In some periods of history that is called Genocide.
[/quote]

I edited a post to suggest Vancouver, British Columbia. White Canadians in Vancouver and either Chinese-Canadians or recent immigrants from China seem to share a common interest in an orderly, prosperous society that cherishes formal education. Pit one group of losers (as in criminal gangs) against another set of losers, and whatever difference there is between the two groups of people will result in violence. If you want to predict what places will have ethnic strife, then look for high crime rates that indicate an overall failure of the society.

But it's known you have issues with integration unless it is on yo own terms.  That's a whole different thread/forum and possibly REALITY.

Quote:However, probably the fundamental REALITY on which America exists is DIVERSITY.  If you have forgotten what that means since crossing the Fence, that means folks of all different backgrounds coming together and MELDING.  It's the actual spine of America. 

Xenophobia is the opposite of America.  If you want to know what is America, turn off Chris Rock and "Daddy" and google Statue Of Liberty Inscription".  Now feel free to misrepresent and skew that inscription, but most of us know we are living in times of dual realities.  The difference with me?  I see both realities.  Many do not.  Therefore, they cannot meet in truth in reality with others.  They can only exist in the reality where THEY WIN.

Excellent. We are seeing lots of 'mixed' marriages that have children with ambiguities about their origins. But we are getting used to this, aren't we? We adapt to reality or it breaks us.

[TheNomad]

(05-03-2019, 11:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Excellent. We are seeing lots of 'mixed' marriages that have children with ambiguities about their origins. But we are getting used to this, aren't we? We adapt to reality or it breaks us.

How can it be?

Diversity + Proximity = War (D+P=W)

DPW for short.

If someone practice and believes the idea of DPW, that means automatic annihilation of the outsider.  They say "well, it just the way it is" but our collective beliefs is what causes all bombast.  While Jews were put into ovens because they were the "outsider" and we call that genocide.

How is DPW different from that?

They will say "it's not me or ppl like me making the wars happen, it's a product of original sin, man is evil and we will kill" notice how it changed in mid sentence from "ME" to "MAN"?  No responsibility for what they put into the world.

Too many ppl live a DPW religion.  And it is a religion.  It is anti integration, anti community, anti coexistence.  Therefore, it is pro segregation, pro exclusivity, pro genocide. 

Diversity + Proximity = War is what has destroyed humanity from the beginning.  I believe in America and the simple inscription on the state of liberty.  The same people who do these things are in church, they are in THEIR community plotting against the OTHER community they are performing genocide ON.  Actively searching for more and new ways to eject the Outsider from their midst, to take control of everything, to fashion it to their own likeness.

Anyone who does not join them is against them and therefore subject to metaphoric AND actual genocide.

DPW is the origin of pretty much all social ills, and they cannot deal with higher concepts like SJW for what it is: a forced recognition that someone exists and has the right to exist EVEN IF AND ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON'T WANT THEM AROUND YOU.

I am so utterly and unbelievably grateful to user @HelenWillis for summing up a unique idea into an easy-to-use MEME.  It literally fell out of the sky the idea that someone proclaiming DPW is actually voicing their opposition for certain people to exist anywhere near them.

[pbrower2a]

(05-04-2019, 02:55 AM)TheNomad Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 11:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Excellent. We are seeing lots of 'mixed' marriages that have children with ambiguities about their origins. But we are getting used to this, aren't we? We adapt to reality or it breaks us.

How can it be?

Diversity + Proximity = War (D+P=W)

DPW for short.

If someone practice and believes the idea of DPW, that means automatic annihilation of the outsider.  They say "well, it just the way it is" but our collective beliefs is what causes all bombast.  While Jews were put into ovens because they were the "outsider" and we call that genocide.

And I can cite an easy directive that says that annihilation of the Outsider is absolutely wrong.

THOU SHALT NOT KILL!

Genocide is the most organized form of murder possible, and it often goes along with theft and rape (although the Nazis precluded rape because such was 'racial defilement'). Maybe one can have capital punishment for murderers, rapists, and traitors... the society in which we live is no better than we are, and if the leaders that we get demand that we do evil, we must resist -- even at the risk of our lives and all the comforts of life.

It is up to people who live in democracies to not vote for evil-doers. We Americans are at fault for electing Donald Trump, who might not be a genocidal monster, but who certainly debases much that many of us have taken for granted because "this is America". It is up to us to vote him and his enablers out in 2020 to the extent possible.

Quote:How is DPW different from that?

They will say "it's not me or ppl like me making the wars happen, it's a product of original sin, man is evil and we will kill" notice how it changed in mid sentence from "ME" to "MAN"?  No responsibility for what they put into the world.

I have always thought "original sin" a specious argument. People can choose between Good and Evil, a choice more important than any civic loyalty, vocation, or faith. Those who choose Good and stick to such a choice will not murder, steal, rape, perjure, abandon the helpless, wreck marriages, or betray their communities.

Man is not born good or evil. "Original sin" is the idea that Man is so inherently depraved that all that keeps him from going to Hell is salvation by Jesus. OK, the Jews thought that they did not need Jesus, and most Jews that I have met seem just as good people as most Christians. I am from an antisemitic family, so I have heard plenty of smears, including that Jews are inordinately greedy and materialistic.  I have seen that claim repudiated. If Jews are successful it is because they are good at what they do, and not that someone dangled money in front of them.  

Quote:Too many ppl live a DPW religion.  And it is a religion.  It is anti integration, anti community, anti coexistence.  Therefore, it is pro segregation, pro exclusivity, pro genocide. 

Diversity + Proximity = War is what has destroyed humanity from the beginning.  I believe in America and the simple inscription on the state of liberty.  The same people who do these things are in church, they are in THEIR community plotting against the OTHER community they are performing genocide ON.  Actively searching for more and new ways to eject the Outsider from their midst, to take control of everything, to fashion it to their own likeness.

We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/marti..._jr_101309

Quote:Anyone who does not join them is against them and therefore subject to metaphoric AND actual genocide.

DPW is the origin of pretty much all social ills, and they cannot deal with higher concepts like SJW for what it is: a forced recognition that someone exists and has the right to exist EVEN IF AND ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON'T WANT THEM AROUND YOU.

The people most vulnerable to genocide are the model minorities, useful in good times, but easy targets for resentment and hatred in bad times. The exploited person on the margin of survival is at least of some value to his exploiter; whatever contempt the Master has for his slave, the Master knows that his 'good life" depends upon the continuing toil of his 'property in human form'. German Jews were the definitive 'model minority', people whose contributions to German economic, intellectual, and technical life were out of proportion to their numbers.

People under stress see the wares in stores (never mind that those are on consignment), the money in a bank (but it is mostly deposits by people like them), and people making good incomes as physicians and attorneys (never mind that such requires long years of formal education and training), and see "exploitation". No, it is only success, and the one hard economic rule underpinning every successful mode of life is that a solid economic order rewards the competent, imaginative, industrious, and thrifty but not the incompetent, witless, lazy, and wasteful. We should all know by now what creates prosperity and what doesn't. So if you envy the Jews, then maybe you might want to see what they do that you might do yourself. 

Quote:I am so utterly and unbelievably grateful to user @HelenWillis for summing up a unique idea into an easy-to-use MEME.  It literally fell out of the sky the idea that someone proclaiming DPW is actually voicing their opposition for certain people to exist anywhere near them.

Armenians in Turkey in World War I? Jews in Iraq in a time of mass panic? Does it matter now what they were? Dead is dead, and murder is murder. Wise people look for solutions and fools look for scapegoats. Economic meltdowns and military reverses happen all the time, and how we deal with them says much about ourselves.

[Classic-Xer]

(05-03-2019, 07:06 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Diversity + proximity = war? Then explain Switzerland. OK, so Switzerland is too bourgeois for that sort of thing. Now what about all the civil wars that have erupted in India between Muslims and Hindus since 1950 outside of Jammu and Kashmir. Ethnic strife has been rare between white Anglos and Hispanics in America, West Side Story notwithstanding. Diversity + proximity = war? Only when the divergent communities are veritable gangs. If you think that diversity + proximity = war, try Vancouver, where the disparate people differ less by skin color than anything else. That's right -- Europeans and Chinese. OK, so white Canadians and Chinese-Canadians share a desire for order, a respect for the value of education, and prosperity.

I can't discern a real difference between the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland by physiognomy, speech patterns, and surnames -- yet there has been much strife in recent decades.  

Decent societies effectively repress civil strife. Their leaders do not egg it on. They see violent strife for the crime that it is and take the side of law and order. Do the crime, do the time.

The hazards of multiculturalism are myth. Most of us pick and choose in everything from cuisine to music. I don't have to be Japanese to appreciate Hokusai, I don't have to be Italian to appreciate Puccini, and I don't have to be Russian to appreciate Tolstoy. I need not be Greek to tell anyone that wise people read Plato because has says so much that had to be said by someone for the first time.  

What composer wrote such soulful music, at times with powerful rhythms that nobody could surpass irrespective of genre? Need one be white to appreciate Bach, let alone have lived in his time?








Heck, I've seen cranky theories that J S Bach was really a black man. Would I care if such were so? Not in the least.

It is not until the era of jazz that people start using Bach's strange but masterful tricks of melodic lines. Example:






 Unlikely pairing? Maybe. Cultural achievement and appreciation is not 'in the blood', or as we would say today, in the DNA. 

I have my idea of what constitutes genius -- breaking the rules and getting something wonderful and even obvious after the fact as with J S Bach. Insanity is breaking the rules, getting bad results, and pretending that the results are wonderful, as with Donald Trump.

Insanity is claiming to be against the rules while going along with the rules, seeing and accepting bad results while still believing or hoping something wonderful will eventually occur or end up coming out of it. Well, you're a white man affiliated with a party that seems to hate white men/white people for some reason, yet you continue to support it for some reason without questioning its motives or its reasons for hating people like you so much these days. I'm not concerned because I'm affiliated with a powerful American group that doesn't care about skin tone or gender or much of anything else directly related to blue identity politics. What is going to eventually happen to a bunch of clowns who are foolish enough to mess around and do its best to hinder/stifle American progress? Well, I for one don't really care about what eventually happens to them. As I've mentioned before, once the country splits and blue America finds itself separated from the rest of America. What goes on within blue America ain't going to matter at that point because the rest of America will no longer have much of an interest in Blue America at that point. Our only interest will pertain to who Blue America eventually aligns itself with as far as global powers. Unfortunately, I don't see the people of Blue America having any say in that decision.

[Classic-Xer]

(05-03-2019, 05:58 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Bigotry and Tribalism are part of the human condition and exist outside of the Turning System.

That being said having lived in the Rural Midwest, and the Urban Midwest as well as the suburban South PBR is wrong as usual.  I actually experenced the most racism in highly diverse areas where "multiculturalism" (really anti-culture) was the norm.  The more monolithic the culture of the area (black or white) the less the prevalence of racism.

I believe this is due to the fact that diversity + proximity = war.

I've been telling the blues to stop worrying about us/ focusing on us as the threat to their existence and start worrying about their own/focusing on their own because the greatest threat to them is their own so to speak.

[pbrower2a]

(05-04-2019, 02:17 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 07:06 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Diversity + proximity = war? Then explain Switzerland. OK, so Switzerland is too bourgeois for that sort of thing. Now what about all the civil wars that have erupted in India between Muslims and Hindus since 1950 outside of Jammu and Kashmir. Ethnic strife has been rare between white Anglos and Hispanics in America, West Side Story notwithstanding. Diversity + proximity = war? Only when the divergent communities are veritable gangs. If you think that diversity + proximity = war, try Vancouver, where the disparate people differ less by skin color than anything else. That's right -- Europeans and Chinese. OK, so white Canadians and Chinese-Canadians share a desire for order, a respect for the value of education, and prosperity.

 ----------

I have my idea of what constitutes genius -- breaking the rules and getting something wonderful and even obvious after the fact as with J S Bach. Insanity is breaking the rules, getting bad results, and pretending that the results are wonderful, as with Donald Trump.

Insanity is claiming to be against the rules while going along with the rules, seeing and accepting bad results while still believing or hoping something wonderful will eventually occur or end up coming out of it. Well, you're a white man affiliated with a party that seems to hate white men/white people for some reason, yet you continue to support it for some reason without questioning its motives or its reasons for hating people like you so much these days.

The Democrats reject the idea of White Power, basically the idea that white people have some entitlement to privilege just for being white. Would I sacrifice white privilege to divest myself of Asperger's syndrome? Sure. To achieve in music in a normal lifespan what Charlie Parker did in 34 years and then  go to even bigger and better things in more years? Sure. Would I take on drug addiction that eventually killed Charlie Parker by weakening him? No. But this is all hypothetical stuff.

Quote:I'm not concerned because I'm affiliated with a powerful American group that doesn't care about skin tone or gender or much of anything else directly related to blue identity politics. What is going to eventually happen to a bunch of clowns who are foolish enough to mess around and do its best to hinder/stifle American progress? Well, I for one don't really care about what eventually happens to them.

Much of American progress comes now from people who have skin color much like mine but otherwise look very different. I cannot readily distinguish many Chinese, Koreans, or Japanese from Europeans by skin color. Tiny noses and the epicanthic fold? Yes. Hair color? When I was young, I had hair coloring that many women would kill for, so to speak -- frosted blond atop brown. But that is long past. My hair is undeniably gray to white. I started to go gray when I was a teenager.

Considering the diversity within the Democratic Party, which has the support of middle-class blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Jews, and Muslims, Democrats are not going to break up over identity politics.  Democrats are picking up support from middle-class whites who are nominal Christians due to the anti-intellectual bilge that emanates from the foul mouth and foul Twitter-fingers of Donald Trump. We Democrats may know of our superficial differences, but we all seem to respect the value of learning.

I have far more  in common with a black liberal than I do with a white Trump supporter because I share more values with middle-class blacks than with ignoramuses proud to be white. I am not proud to be white. I identify with a culture that one would expect of  someone a mixture of German, Swiss, Dutch, English, Welsh, and Scots-Irish ancestors because such is what I have as ancestors. I 'lack' the arrogance to see my origins as a virtue.

Quote:As I've mentioned before, once the country splits and blue America finds itself separated from the rest of America. What goes on within blue America ain't going to matter at that point because the rest of America will no longer have much of an interest in Blue America at that point. Our only interest will pertain to who Blue America eventually aligns itself with as far as global powers. Unfortunately, I don't see the people of Blue America having any say in that decision.

No. The future is with the people with good habits -- competence, sobriety, rationality, industry, and thrift -- as opposed to incompetence, drunkenness and addiction, madness, laziness, and waste. From us will come the professionals, the creative people, and even the canny entrepreneurs. The best of your kids will join us, and they will be and feel welcome.

[Eric the Green]

(05-03-2019, 01:00 AM)TheNomad Wrote: When is bigotry and racism or hatred and tribalism happening most in American civilization according to past Turnings?

In what Turning (of the four laid out by S&H) are these things happening the most?

Why does it seem that America always descends into factions during certain Turnings?  The idea of building walls and "grouping up" seems to make sense to many while in that period.  Folks are more willing to be against others and have no desire to "meld" with neighbors. 

When this is happening, is it a peak idea we can look at as to WHEN certain Turnings are happening?

Such as:

Where inside the Turning we are.  Beginning?  Middle?  End?  Does it correlate directly to the Turning?  When these things are at the societal zenith, we might be right in the Middle.  Or, if we see it happening, the Beginning.  Or, if it is getting resolved, the End?

I'd say it is strongest from third turnings to early 1st turnings, with some kind of climax in 4th turnings.

We are certainly experiencing it now, in the middle of a 4th turning. Racism received a major correction in the sixties, but the backlash and southern strategy has grown as a reaction and retrenchment to this, and now has been stoked for a rebirth by Trump and his fear-mongering about immigrants.

Racism was strong in the mid-1920s in the late 3rd turning, with the revival of the KKK and promotion of eugenics in the 1920s and 1930s, which was eagerly taken up by the Nazis in the fourth turning, which presented virulent racism as a threat to the United States and other liberal-democratic countries in World War II. Also, anti-immigration sentiment was strong in the 1920s and 30s and led to the anti-immigrant law of 1924. 

The American Party or Know-Nothings sought to keep America white and protestant, for fear the American traditions would be ruined, in the 1850s-- a fourth turning as I see it. In Europe in the same decade, scientific racism received great boosts from the theories of Darwin, Spencer and Gobineau. This helped to stoke the nationalist wars by Bismarck, Cavour, and Jefferson Davis in the 1860s 4th turning. Reconstruction saw the birth of the KKK in the reunited states in the late 1860s, early 1st turning. The Chinese exclusion act of 1882 came late in a 1st turning.

The alien act was a major component of the post-revolution era, early 1st turning.

[Eric the Green]

(05-04-2019, 02:17 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Insanity is claiming to be against the rules while going along with the rules, seeing and accepting bad results while still believing or hoping something wonderful will eventually occur or end up coming out of it. Well, you're a white man affiliated with a party that seems to hate white men/white people for some reason, yet you continue to support it for some reason without questioning its motives or its reasons for hating people like you so much these days. I'm not concerned because I'm affiliated with a powerful American group that doesn't care about skin tone or gender or much of anything else directly related to blue identity politics. What is going to eventually happen to a bunch of clowns who are foolish enough to mess around and do its best to hinder/stifle American progress? Well, I for one don't really care about what eventually happens to them. As I've mentioned before, once the country splits and blue America finds itself separated from the rest of America. What goes on within blue America ain't going to matter at that point because the rest of America will no longer have much of an interest in Blue America at that point. Our only interest will pertain to who Blue America eventually aligns itself with as far as global powers. Unfortunately, I don't see the people of Blue America having any say in that decision.

It is Red America that has hindered and stifled American progress for over 4 decades and counting. We have had little in the way of major legislation that helps people improve their economic and social position in society. Instead we have had policies that increase inequality and oligarchy and concentration of wealth and power into the hands of a few wealthy people. That is regression, not progress, and our country has declined in every conceivable metric as a result. Now you guys who claim not to care about race and gender, are actually stoking oppression, hatred and attacks on those who are not white men, and you claim those who oppose this, hate white men. No, opposition to hate is not hate, although you think that it is.

Once the country splits into blue and red America, Red America will be cut off from Blue America that has kept it afloat, and will be left with trickle-down anti-tax and anti-regulation economics policies meant to keep non-white men in their place, and to further concentrate wealth and power, and will have nothing but greedy business as a source of wealth, which will not reach most of the people, but lead instead to even poorer schools, lack of health care, more pollution, and even fewer public amenities, which have already made Red America much more miserable as places to live. I expect the South and lower Mid-West regions to be the worse off in these respects, while Western and plain-states Red America may compromise and eventually learn more quickly to change their ways, thus creating a red-blue split even within Red America. Blue America meanwhile will be freed from the shackles of improper taxation and regulation, develop its public resources and infrastructure, continue to create wealth through its supportive education policies, and attract young immigrants from Red America and from other countries to stoke its economic prosperity. 

I expect most of the rest of the world, which has long since been even more Blue than Blue America, to align with Blue America, establish fair trade with it, and leave Red America behind as the relic of medieval times that it is. Red America will wallow in its prejudice and its fear of other peoples, and thus not be able to connect with them well at all. Blue will also be free from the militarist imperialism and authoritarian patriotism which has emanated from Red America, and will help create peace and world unity, while Red America will be seen as a pariah which may even reimpose slavery on black Red Americans. And Red America will no longer have the resources or access to the sea to enable it to launch the unnecessary invasions that have cost America so much in lives and treasure, much to the relief of the world I must say. 

Nor will Blue America be subject to the fearful, oppressive laws like the Patriot Act and NSA spying, and will keep guns and police in check to reduce the danger of living in its lands, while Red America will allow the rampant violence by police against blacks and the unchecked multiplication of gun toters that will kill thousands of innocent people each year, from which millions will seek escape to the haven of Blue America and its coastal connections to the worlds and adventures beyond parochial, provincial Red America and its hidebound, narrow, superstitious mentality. Red America will quickly decline in wealth and population, and some decades hence will see the error of its ways, repent, and seek to rejoin the vibrant, prosperous lands that left them in the dust since they retreated into their closeted, prejudiced, fearful, backward world.

[Eric the Green]

(05-04-2019, 02:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 05:58 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Bigotry and Tribalism are part of the human condition and exist outside of the Turning System.

That being said having lived in the Rural Midwest, and the Urban Midwest as well as the suburban South PBR is wrong as usual.  I actually experenced the most racism in highly diverse areas where "multiculturalism" (really anti-culture) was the norm.  The more monolithic the culture of the area (black or white) the less the prevalence of racism.

I believe this is due to the fact that diversity + proximity = war.

I've been telling the blues to stop worrying about us/ focusing on us as the threat to their existence and start worrying about their own/focusing on their own because the greatest threat to them is their own so to speak.

I think there is some justification for blue to focus on our own, to an extent. Racism, for example, and trickle-down economics ideology, exists in Blue America; it is just not dominant there. Our own trickle-down economics in the past has caused schools in non-white neighborhoods to be inferior, which contributes to inequality in Blue America too. Pollution sometimes is just as bad as in Red America, because we have so much industry and so many cars. But policies that result from these ideologies have been more often imposed on Blue America, and Blue America would free itself from these policies to a large degree, and join the rest of the world in moving forward.

But Blue America has its own maladies to solve. Things are never totally either/or, by any means. We have to deal with high housing and other costs, which are the result of we being the desirable place to live. But are we doing enough to relieve homelessness and poverty that result from high prices and unequal distribution of wealth and education? And we depend for our prosperity on advanced high tech industries which have created a wealthy class which is still largely composed of white men, and which have on occasion neglected their social responsibility to their environment and their society. Blue America needs to move further left than it has been as a vassal of Red America. No doubt some blue states like California have had greater immigration of poor people from other lands, which has strained our education system and increased the poverty from which our states suffer. Many Latin and Asian Californians have become excellent contributing citizens, and this will lead to greater prosperity than xenophobic Red America could ever enjoy, but a period of transition occurs for which greater adjustments need to be made.

There is more marijuana use in Blue America, which has it good and bad results. Because we have freer lifestyles, we sometimes have to exercize more caution in regard to sex and drugs and other pleasure addictions, especially among youth. Blue Americans may have bigger egos because we aspire to fame and glamour and get rich quick more than Red America does. Broadway and Hollywood attract superficial ambition. Because we lack a sense of community, but are always on the move to greater and greater things, or so we think, Blue America often has more loneliness than Red America. Our sense of spirituality, virtue and higher values may suffer from our belief in science and tech as solution to all problems. But it is not Blue America that has suffered the most from addictive pain-relief pills, because there is less pain in Blue America to seek relief from than in Red America.

[Kinser79]

(05-04-2019, 02:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 05:58 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Bigotry and Tribalism are part of the human condition and exist outside of the Turning System.

That being said having lived in the Rural Midwest, and the Urban Midwest as well as the suburban South PBR is wrong as usual.  I actually experenced the most racism in highly diverse areas where "multiculturalism" (really anti-culture) was the norm.  The more monolithic the culture of the area (black or white) the less the prevalence of racism.

I believe this is due to the fact that diversity + proximity = war.

I've been telling the blues to stop worrying about us/ focusing on us as the threat to their existence and start worrying about their own/focusing on their own because the greatest threat to them is their own so to speak.

I would counter that I prefer them focusing on us rather than themselves.  Should they actually become self-aware they may take steps to prevent their own demise.

[Kinser79]

(05-04-2019, 02:17 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 07:06 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Diversity + proximity = war? Then explain Switzerland. OK, so Switzerland is too bourgeois for that sort of thing. Now what about all the civil wars that have erupted in India between Muslims and Hindus since 1950 outside of Jammu and Kashmir. Ethnic strife has been rare between white Anglos and Hispanics in America, West Side Story notwithstanding. Diversity + proximity = war? Only when the divergent communities are veritable gangs. If you think that diversity + proximity = war, try Vancouver, where the disparate people differ less by skin color than anything else. That's right -- Europeans and Chinese. OK, so white Canadians and Chinese-Canadians share a desire for order, a respect for the value of education, and prosperity.

I can't discern a real difference between the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland by physiognomy, speech patterns, and surnames -- yet there has been much strife in recent decades.  

Decent societies effectively repress civil strife. Their leaders do not egg it on. They see violent strife for the crime that it is and take the side of law and order. Do the crime, do the time.

The hazards of multiculturalism are myth. Most of us pick and choose in everything from cuisine to music. I don't have to be Japanese to appreciate Hokusai, I don't have to be Italian to appreciate Puccini, and I don't have to be Russian to appreciate Tolstoy. I need not be Greek to tell anyone that wise people read Plato because has says so much that had to be said by someone for the first time.  

What composer wrote such soulful music, at times with powerful rhythms that nobody could surpass irrespective of genre? Need one be white to appreciate Bach, let alone have lived in his time?








Heck, I've seen cranky theories that J S Bach was really a black man. Would I care if such were so? Not in the least.

It is not until the era of jazz that people start using Bach's strange but masterful tricks of melodic lines. Example:






 Unlikely pairing? Maybe. Cultural achievement and appreciation is not 'in the blood', or as we would say today, in the DNA. 

I have my idea of what constitutes genius -- breaking the rules and getting something wonderful and even obvious after the fact as with J S Bach. Insanity is breaking the rules, getting bad results, and pretending that the results are wonderful, as with Donald Trump.

Insanity is claiming to be against the rules while going along with the rules, seeing and accepting bad results while still believing or hoping something wonderful will eventually occur or end up coming out of it. Well, you're a white man affiliated with a party that seems to hate white men/white people for some reason, yet you continue to support it for some reason without questioning its motives or its reasons for hating people like you so much these days. I'm not concerned because I'm affiliated with a powerful American group that doesn't care about skin tone or gender or much of anything else directly related to blue identity politics. What is going to eventually happen to a bunch of clowns who are foolish enough to mess around and do its best to hinder/stifle American progress? Well, I for one don't really care about what eventually happens to them. As I've mentioned before, once the country splits and blue America finds itself separated from the rest of America. What goes on within blue America ain't going to matter at that point because the rest of America will no longer have much of an interest in Blue America at that point. Our only interest will pertain to who Blue America eventually aligns itself with as far as global powers. Unfortunately, I don't see the people of Blue America having any say in that decision.

PBR lives in a fantasy land as he proved with his after this one.  Or at the very least if he does live in the same reality as everyone else, he must have unpluged his brain some time during the 1970s if he actually believe the nonsense he just spouted, and isn't just shilling for someone.

As for Blue America, I doubt any outside power would ally with it.  Should they split off they would begin to starve in a matter of weeks.  We can live without Hollyweird movies or Silly-Con Valley but they will have a hard time living without our corn, wheat, and oil.

[Classic-Xer]

(05-04-2019, 07:44 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I would counter that I prefer them focusing on us rather than themselves.  Should they actually become self-aware they may take steps to prevent their own demise. 

I prefer to limit their demise to themselves as much as possible. I can't help it, it must be the tinch of Christian in me.

[Classic-Xer]

(05-04-2019, 07:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(05-04-2019, 02:17 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 07:06 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Diversity + proximity = war? Then explain Switzerland. OK, so Switzerland is too bourgeois for that sort of thing. Now what about all the civil wars that have erupted in India between Muslims and Hindus since 1950 outside of Jammu and Kashmir. Ethnic strife has been rare between white Anglos and Hispanics in America, West Side Story notwithstanding. Diversity + proximity = war? Only when the divergent communities are veritable gangs. If you think that diversity + proximity = war, try Vancouver, where the disparate people differ less by skin color than anything else. That's right -- Europeans and Chinese. OK, so white Canadians and Chinese-Canadians share a desire for order, a respect for the value of education, and prosperity.

I can't discern a real difference between the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland by physiognomy, speech patterns, and surnames -- yet there has been much strife in recent decades.  

Decent societies effectively repress civil strife. Their leaders do not egg it on. They see violent strife for the crime that it is and take the side of law and order. Do the crime, do the time.

The hazards of multiculturalism are myth. Most of us pick and choose in everything from cuisine to music. I don't have to be Japanese to appreciate Hokusai, I don't have to be Italian to appreciate Puccini, and I don't have to be Russian to appreciate Tolstoy. I need not be Greek to tell anyone that wise people read Plato because has says so much that had to be said by someone for the first time.  

What composer wrote such soulful music, at times with powerful rhythms that nobody could surpass irrespective of genre? Need one be white to appreciate Bach, let alone have lived in his time?








Heck, I've seen cranky theories that J S Bach was really a black man. Would I care if such were so? Not in the least.

It is not until the era of jazz that people start using Bach's strange but masterful tricks of melodic lines. Example:






 Unlikely pairing? Maybe. Cultural achievement and appreciation is not 'in the blood', or as we would say today, in the DNA. 

I have my idea of what constitutes genius -- breaking the rules and getting something wonderful and even obvious after the fact as with J S Bach. Insanity is breaking the rules, getting bad results, and pretending that the results are wonderful, as with Donald Trump.

Insanity is claiming to be against the rules while going along with the rules, seeing and accepting bad results while still believing or hoping something wonderful will eventually occur or end up coming out of it. Well, you're a white man affiliated with a party that seems to hate white men/white people for some reason, yet you continue to support it for some reason without questioning its motives or its reasons for hating people like you so much these days. I'm not concerned because I'm affiliated with a powerful American group that doesn't care about skin tone or gender or much of anything else directly related to blue identity politics. What is going to eventually happen to a bunch of clowns who are foolish enough to mess around and do its best to hinder/stifle American progress? Well, I for one don't really care about what eventually happens to them. As I've mentioned before, once the country splits and blue America finds itself separated from the rest of America. What goes on within blue America ain't going to matter at that point because the rest of America will no longer have much of an interest in Blue America at that point. Our only interest will pertain to who Blue America eventually aligns itself with as far as global powers. Unfortunately, I don't see the people of Blue America having any say in that decision.

PBR lives in a fantasy land as he proved with his after this one.  Or at the very least if he does live in the same reality as everyone else, he must have unpluged his brain some time during the 1970s if he actually believe the nonsense he just spouted, and isn't just shilling for someone.

As for Blue America, I doubt any outside power would ally with it.  Should they split off they would begin to starve in a matter of weeks.  We can live without Hollyweird movies or Silly-Con Valley but they will have a hard time living without our corn, wheat, and oil.

PB definitely has a few screws loose as they say.

[pbrower2a]

(05-04-2019, 07:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [quote pid='43088' dateline='1556997459']
Insanity is claiming to be against the rules while going along with the rules, seeing and accepting bad results while still believing or hoping something wonderful will eventually occur or end up coming out of it. Well, you're a white man affiliated with a party that seems to hate white men/white people for some reason, yet you continue to support it for some reason without questioning its motives or its reasons for hating people like you so much these days. I'm not concerned because I'm affiliated with a powerful American group that doesn't care about skin tone or gender or much of anything else directly related to blue identity politics. What is going to eventually happen to a bunch of clowns who are foolish enough to mess around and do its best to hinder/stifle American progress? Well, I for one don't really care about what eventually happens to them. As I've mentioned before, once the country splits and blue America finds itself separated from the rest of America. What goes on within blue America ain't going to matter at that point because the rest of America will no longer have much of an interest in Blue America at that point. Our only interest will pertain to who Blue America eventually aligns itself with as far as global powers. Unfortunately, I don't see the people of Blue America having any say in that decision.

PBR lives in a fantasy land as he proved with his after this one.  Or at the very least if he does live in the same reality as everyone else, he must have unpluged his brain some time during the 1970s if he actually believe the nonsense he just spouted, and isn't just shilling for someone.

As for Blue America, I doubt any outside power would ally with it.  Should they split off they would begin to starve in a matter of weeks.  We can live without Hollyweird movies or Silly-Con Valley but they will have a hard time living without our corn, wheat, and oil.
[/quote]

I think I had a better definition of genius and madness.

I could add stupidity, which is breaking the rules without obvious purpose or when the consequences are known to be bad. Bank robbery is usually a very dumb crime because offenders are usually caught swiftly. Mediocrity comes from following the rules rigidly and getting the predictable results.

...as for Hollywood -- either Germany or America was going to dominate  in the creation of great movies, until some fellow with a silly mustache chose to 'purify' the German film industry of people that he did not like Speaking of movies -- haven't they been getting good in contrast to what we have seen in recent years? This year is the 80th anniversary of the greatest year in cinematic history in America. The eighty-year rule applies. Well, German cinema devolved quickly into mediocrity in the 1930s.

Plenty of countries would love to have the technological innovation of Silicon Valley.