The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-21-2020, 07:43 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 01:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You forget that the Nazi's/fascists were a radical Leftist group too so you may as well add them to the mix competing for power on today's Left as well. I mean, all idiots like you and others here are doing is perpetuating and feeding ignorance and increasing the risk of greater violence and burning more bridges with the American right.

They may be ex-Leftists who found out that selling out the working class to tycoons and large land-owners is more lucrative than sticking with left-wing causes. But that said, they are ex-Leftists. They may be rogues too extreme or violent for Socialists who may prefer to work within the system by seeking votes and parliamentary seats instead of revolution.  Want to see the sparks fly? Pit social democrats against Commies. The social democrats want nothing to do with the "dictatorship of the proletariat". 

Take note that the Far Right is far more likely to adopt the revolutionary rhetoric of the Far Left in an effort to pull off some socialists who don;t think enough to recognize the deviation from the more conventional socialists. Fascists often offer the "vertical trade union" in which everyone in the same industry has a common interest for being in mining, agriculture, vehicle manufacture, retailing, banking, etc. Thus a steelworker supposedly has more in common with the tycoon who owns the steel mill than with the lumberjack in the wood-products business.  (In practice, the only way for such to work is for the tycoons and executives to wield even more crushing power than one would expect in a broadly-libertarian society. Such is fascist corporatism, and it inevitably works well for economic elites than for workers. 

Classic X'er, you do not fully understand extremist politics. You fail to recognize the dangers of extremism, Left and Right, and you conflate moderate Leftists like me with Josef Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Pol Pot.

I you include the Ages of Civilization pattern, an autocratic dictatorship, regardless of whether you call them left or right, is from the Agricultural Age.  Given the arrow of progress, and how the dictators are generally opposed to human rights, equality and democracy, the Ages perspective is far more pertinent than the left - right squabbling that goes into any Industrial Age society.

But Classic has to defend his worldview somehow.  You wouldn't want to make him think for himself, would you?  As is typical of red partisans there are certain aspects of reality that are walled out from comprehension.  Busting through is nigh on impossible.

I would like to say the blue are different, but both are partisan ideological political systems, and the idea of checking against reality and revising a theory to match realty is under the purview of scientific world views...

[Classic-Xer]

(06-21-2020, 04:12 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-20-2020, 06:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Boy are you way off track with the your understanding of the RW, 2nd Amendment folks and what it is that gets them all up in arms these days? Nope, they're weren't your typical light security mall cops like the liberal Democrats seem prefer and want to replace most of our city cops with these days. Those were our kind of our RW cops that a couple of your LW radicals gunned down in cold blood that caught the attention of the FBI who as we know as concerned about stepping up and doing the job that liberal Democrats either willingly refuse to do or afraid to do due to their relatively close political ties with the Left these day or fears of their cozy blue being basically over run and looted those we seen on TV.

The perpetrators in this case were identified as Boogaloo Bois.  The individuals are white supremacists and their loosely affiliated group is extreme RW.  That's according to the FBII, not me.

Classic-Xer Wrote:Right now, the American right is still recognized as being the authority and the upholders of American law and defenders of the US Constitution, American establishment and all its people/citizens and it's government. In all the years of of us posting, I've rarely seen an American view, an American position or an understanding or an acceptance or an embrace of American values and the American way of life. Whether we split or go to war and  take part in a major bloodbath is largely on the Democrats ability to keep the peace and resolve their major problems.

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.  And ICYMI: what qualifies as American has more to do with "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" than you care to admit.  Thundering around with firearms and claiming you're being oppressed doesn't fit the bill.

Classic-Xer Wrote:You don't speak for me or  the American government. You speak for yourself, the Left and the kind of government that the Left prefers to have instead of ours and once that becomes apparent to most Americans these days, the more we are going see more of what we've seen taking place (the spirals of large scale violence) in blue cities since Obama entered his second term in office and tried to move America backwards to a time when the big government related Democrats/ the old social conservative Democrats  pretty much called the shots.

You guys ran the show for roughly 5 decades, and things are much worse now than they were then -- even allowing for the Dixiecrat control that never let up from the previous saeculum.  Every other OECD country is doing much better.  It's our turn, and we're damn well tired of waiting!

I've never claimed to be oppressed. You and others have tried many times but failed miserably. Yeah, the remnants of the old Dixiecrat's are still clinging to the Democratic party. Your worthless governor is living proof of it.

[Classic-Xer]

(06-21-2020, 08:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I you include the Ages of Civilization pattern, an autocratic dictatorship, regardless of whether you call them left or right, is from the Agricultural Age.  Given the arrow of progress, and how the dictators are generally opposed to human rights, equality and democracy, the Ages perspective is far more pertinent than the left - right squabbling that goes into any Industrial Age society.

But Classic has to defend his worldview somehow.  You wouldn't want to make him thing for himself, would you?  As is typical of red partisans there are certain aspects of reality that are walled out from comprehension.  Busting through is nigh on impossible.

I would like to say the blue are different, but both are partisan ideological political systems, and the idea of checking against reality and revising a theory to match realty is under the purview of scientific world views...

Nope. He doesn't want me to be able to think for myself anymore than you want me to think for myself at this point. It's to much trouble for those with weak minds to handle and contend with these days.

[Classic-Xer]

(06-21-2020, 07:43 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 01:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You forget that the Nazi's/fascists were a radical Leftist group too so you may as well add them to the mix competing for power on today's Left as well. I mean, all idiots like you and others here are doing is perpetuating and feeding ignorance and increasing the risk of greater violence and burning more bridges with the American right.

They may be ex-Leftists who found out that selling out the working class to tycoons and large land-owners is more lucrative than sticking with left-wing causes. But that said, they are ex-Leftists. They may be rogues too extreme or violent for Socialists who may prefer to work within the system by seeking votes and parliamentary seats instead of revolution.  Want to see the sparks fly? Pit social democrats against Commies. The social democrats want nothing to do with the "dictatorship of the proletariat". 

Take note that the Far Right is far more likely to adopt the revolutionary rhetoric of the Far Left in an effort to pull off some socialists who don;t think enough to recognize the deviation from the more conventional socialists. Fascists often offer the "vertical trade union" in which everyone in the same industry has a common interest for being in mining, agriculture, vehicle manufacture, retailing, banking, etc. Thus a steelworker supposedly has more in common with the tycoon who owns the steel mill than with the lumberjack in the wood-products business.  (In practice, the only way for such to work is for the tycoons and executives to wield even more crushing power than one would expect in a broadly-libertarian society. Such is fascist corporatism, and it inevitably works well for economic elites than for workers. 

Classic X'er, you do not fully understand extremist politics. You fail to recognize the dangers of extremism, Left and Right, and you conflate moderate Leftists like me with Josef Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Pol Pot.

Not really. Once a leftist always a leftist. How do you tell the difference between a far Left leftist and a far Right leftist these days? Ideologically speaking, I didn't see much of a difference between the two myself. So, do you really think the American Marines, American Air Borne, American Army, American Special Forces are going to ignore their solemn oaths and blindly follow orders and turn their guns on their American brothers and sisters and do what the Left wants them to do for them. Like I said, you better wise up fast and figure out which side you're on before it's to late to do anything about the side that you're stuck on. You don't seem to understand extremist politics or seem to be able to recognize the signs of being politically associated with it either. Me, I do and I'm not afraid to confront.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-22-2020, 12:20 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 08:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I you include the Ages of Civilization pattern, an autocratic dictatorship, regardless of whether you call them left or right, is from the Agricultural Age.  Given the arrow of progress, and how the dictators are generally opposed to human rights, equality and democracy, the Ages perspective is far more pertinent than the left - right squabbling that goes into any Industrial Age society.

But Classic has to defend his worldview somehow.  You wouldn't want to make him thing for himself, would you?  As is typical of red partisans there are certain aspects of reality that are walled out from comprehension.  Busting through is nigh on impossible.

I would like to say the blue are different, but both are partisan ideological political systems, and the idea of checking against reality and revising a theory to match realty is under the purview of scientific world views...

Nope. He doesn't want me to be able to think for myself anymore than you want me to think for myself at this point. It's to much trouble for those with weak minds to handle and contend with these days.

I know. But I keep trying. The common bit isn't weak minds, but a tendency to fall in love with a political perspective, an ideological mindset. You have to check against reality. But a common theme at least here is that political ideology persists.

[Eric the Green]

(06-22-2020, 01:29 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 07:43 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 01:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You forget that the Nazi's/fascists were a radical Leftist group too so you may as well add them to the mix competing for power on today's Left as well. I mean, all idiots like you and others here are doing is perpetuating and feeding ignorance and increasing the risk of greater violence and burning more bridges with the American right.

They may be ex-Leftists who found out that selling out the working class to tycoons and large land-owners is more lucrative than sticking with left-wing causes. But that said, they are ex-Leftists. They may be rogues too extreme or violent for Socialists who may prefer to work within the system by seeking votes and parliamentary seats instead of revolution.  Want to see the sparks fly? Pit social democrats against Commies. The social democrats want nothing to do with the "dictatorship of the proletariat". 

Take note that the Far Right is far more likely to adopt the revolutionary rhetoric of the Far Left in an effort to pull off some socialists who don;t think enough to recognize the deviation from the more conventional socialists. Fascists often offer the "vertical trade union" in which everyone in the same industry has a common interest for being in mining, agriculture, vehicle manufacture, retailing, banking, etc. Thus a steelworker supposedly has more in common with the tycoon who owns the steel mill than with the lumberjack in the wood-products business.  (In practice, the only way for such to work is for the tycoons and executives to wield even more crushing power than one would expect in a broadly-libertarian society. Such is fascist corporatism, and it inevitably works well for economic elites than for workers. 

Classic X'er, you do not fully understand extremist politics. You fail to recognize the dangers of extremism, Left and Right, and you conflate moderate Leftists like me with Josef Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Pol Pot.

Not really. Once a leftist always a leftist. How do you tell the difference between a far Left leftist and a far Right leftist these days? Ideologically speaking, I didn't see much of a difference between the two myself. So, do you really think the American Marines, American Air Borne, American Army, American Special Forces are going to ignore their solemn oaths and blindly follow orders and turn their guns on their American brothers and sisters and do what the Left wants them to do for them. Like I said, you better wise up fast and figure out which side you're on before it's to late to do anything about the side that you're stuck on. You don't seem to understand extremist politics or seem to be able to recognize the signs of being politically associated with it either. Me, I do and I'm not afraid to confront.

This is the "America" that you and your fellow classics believe in and are instituting.

Trump appointee launches assault on Voice of America, affiliates
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/19/o...ffiliates/
Fears rise that this respected source for news around the world will become the next Trump News Network.
By The Editorial Board Updated June 19, 2020, 4:34 p.m.


The bodies continue to pile up at the nation’s government-funded but editorially independent news services, raising fears that they will soon become a propaganda arm of the Trump administration.

If that happens, the loss of credibility to a 78-year-old effort to bring straight news to people around the world where it is often in short supply, will be immeasurable.

The respected Voice of America and its affiliates, including Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and Radio Free Asia, are all part of the US Agency for Global Media, which this month came under the leadership of Trump appointee Michael Pack. Pack is a conservative filmmaker and ally of former Trump strategist Steve Bannon with whom he has done several film projects.

The global news service, which operates in 47 languages and employs more than 1,100 journalists, was founded in 1942 to tell “America’s story,” but to do it free of government interference, to always observe the “firewall” that separates news from propaganda — a firewall that is at the heart of independent journalism.

Senate Democrats skeptical about Pack’s commitment to that mission — and concerned about a still-pending investigation of his business dealings by the attorney general of the District of Columbia, managed to hold up his confirmation for nearly two years. This April, however, the White House turned up the heat, berating the Voice of America for being pro-China in its coverage of the coronavirus outbreak there. President Trump personally entered the fray May 15 saying, “Voice of America is run in a terrible manner. They’re not the Voice of America. They’re the opposite of the Voice of America.” Senate Republicans got the message and pushed through Pack’s confirmation.

By Monday VOA Director Amanda Bennett and Deputy Director Sandy Sugawara had resigned, telling staffers that Pack “has the right to replace us with his own VOA leadership.” Bennett is a former editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer and a two-time Pulitzer Prize winner.

Bannon celebrated by telling the Washington Times, “Now patriots can begin the process of cleaning up the mess she leaves behind.”

That foretells a horrifying reality about the new agenda at VOA and its affiliates.
In his Wednesday memo to staff, Pack insisted, “I am fully committed to honoring VOA’s charter, the missions of the grantees, and the independence of our heroic journalists around the world.”

By Wednesday night, the heads of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, the Open Technology Fund, Middle East Broadcasting, and Radio Free Asia, were gone. CNN quoted a source saying the head of the Open Technology Fund, which helps support a free and open Internet, had resigned effective in July but was fired Wednesday anyway.

Another Bannon ally, Jeffrey Shapiro, was expected to take over the Office of Cuba Broadcasting. And conservative talk show host Sebastian Gorka was also reported to be in the running for a VOA post or membership of the agency’s governing board.

Senator Bob Menendez, ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said in a statement issued Wednesday night, “The wholesale firing of the agency’s network heads, and disbanding of corporate boards to install President Trump’s political allies is an egregious breach of this organization’s history and mission from which it may never recover.”

The latter, of course, is the truly troubling part. VOA reaches some 280 million people in 60 countries — many of them places where free and independent media are virtually unknown.


A congressional inquiry is surely be in order to determine if VOA will continue to abide by its charter which demands it “serve as a consistently reliable and authoritative source of news. VOA news will be accurate, objective, and comprehensive.”

Taxpayers deserve to know whether the $637 million in funds the agency is looking for will pay for something they can be proud of, or whether this once respected news service is becoming an international Trump News Network.

[pbrower2a]

(06-22-2020, 04:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-22-2020, 01:29 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 07:43 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 01:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You forget that the Nazi's/fascists were a radical Leftist group too so you may as well add them to the mix competing for power on today's Left as well. I mean, all idiots like you and others here are doing is perpetuating and feeding ignorance and increasing the risk of greater violence and burning more bridges with the American right.

They may be ex-Leftists who found out that selling out the working class to tycoons and large land-owners is more lucrative than sticking with left-wing causes. But that said, they are ex-Leftists. They may be rogues too extreme or violent for Socialists who may prefer to work within the system by seeking votes and parliamentary seats instead of revolution.  Want to see the sparks fly? Pit social democrats against Commies. The social democrats want nothing to do with the "dictatorship of the proletariat". 

Take note that the Far Right is far more likely to adopt the revolutionary rhetoric of the Far Left in an effort to pull off some socialists who don't think enough to recognize the deviation from the more conventional socialists. Fascists often offer the "vertical trade union" in which everyone in the same industry has a common interest for being in mining, agriculture, vehicle manufacture, retailing, banking, etc. Thus a steelworker supposedly has more in common with the tycoon who owns the steel mill than with the lumberjack in the wood-products business.  (In practice, the only way for such to work is for the tycoons and executives to wield even more crushing power than one would expect in a broadly-libertarian society. Such is fascist corporatism, and it inevitably works well for economic elites than for workers. 

Classic X'er, you do not fully understand extremist politics. You fail to recognize the dangers of extremism, Left and Right, and you conflate moderate Leftists like me with Josef Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Pol Pot.

Not really. Once a leftist always a leftist. How do you tell the difference between a far Left leftist and a far Right leftist these days? Ideologically speaking, I didn't see much of a difference between the two myself. So, do you really think the American Marines, American Air Borne, American Army, American Special Forces are going to ignore their solemn oaths and blindly follow orders and turn their guns on their American brothers and sisters and do what the Left wants them to do for them. Like I said, you better wise up fast and figure out which side you're on before it's to late to do anything about the side that you're stuck on. You don't seem to understand extremist politics or seem to be able to recognize the signs of being politically associated with it either. Me, I do and I'm not afraid to confront.

Contemplate Kinser, who went from being a Stalinist to a fanatical supporter of Donald Trump. 

Quote:This is the "America" that you and your fellow classics believe in and are instituting.

Trump appointee launches assault on Voice of America, affiliates
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/19/o...ffiliates/
Fears rise that this respected source for news around the world will become the next Trump News Network.
By The Editorial Board Updated June 19, 2020, 4:34 p.m.


The bodies continue to pile up at the nation’s government-funded but editorially independent news services, raising fears that they will soon become a propaganda arm of the Trump administration.

If that happens, the loss of credibility to a 78-year-old effort to bring straight news to people around the world where it is often in short supply, will be immeasurable.

The respected Voice of America and its affiliates, including Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and Radio Free Asia, are all part of the US Agency for Global Media, which this month came under the leadership of Trump appointee Michael Pack. Pack is a conservative filmmaker and ally of former Trump strategist Steve Bannon with whom he has done several film projects.

The global news service, which operates in 47 languages and employs more than 1,100 journalists, was founded in 1942 to tell “America’s story,” but to do it free of government interference, to always observe the “firewall” that separates news from propaganda — a firewall that is at the heart of independent journalism.

Senate Democrats skeptical about Pack’s commitment to that mission — and concerned about a still-pending investigation of his business dealings by the attorney general of the District of Columbia, managed to hold up his confirmation for nearly two years. This April, however, the White House turned up the heat, berating the Voice of America for being pro-China in its coverage of the coronavirus outbreak there. President Trump personally entered the fray May 15 saying, “Voice of America is run in a terrible manner. They’re not the Voice of America. They’re the opposite of the Voice of America.” Senate Republicans got the message and pushed through Pack’s confirmation.

By Monday VOA Director Amanda Bennett and Deputy Director Sandy Sugawara had resigned, telling staffers that Pack “has the right to replace us with his own VOA leadership.” Bennett is a former editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer and a two-time Pulitzer Prize winner.

Bannon celebrated by telling the Washington Times, “Now patriots can begin the process of cleaning up the mess she leaves behind.”

That foretells a horrifying reality about the new agenda at VOA and its affiliates.
In his Wednesday memo to staff, Pack insisted, “I am fully committed to honoring VOA’s charter, the missions of the grantees, and the independence of our heroic journalists around the world.”

By Wednesday night, the heads of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, the Open Technology Fund, Middle East Broadcasting, and Radio Free Asia, were gone. CNN quoted a source saying the head of the Open Technology Fund, which helps support a free and open Internet, had resigned effective in July but was fired Wednesday anyway.

Another Bannon ally, Jeffrey Shapiro, was expected to take over the Office of Cuba Broadcasting. And conservative talk show host Sebastian Gorka was also reported to be in the running for a VOA post or membership of the agency’s governing board.

Senator Bob Menendez, ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said in a statement issued Wednesday night, “The wholesale firing of the agency’s network heads, and disbanding of corporate boards to install President Trump’s political allies is an egregious breach of this organization’s history and mission from which it may never recover.”

The latter, of course, is the truly troubling part. VOA reaches some 280 million people in 60 countries — many of them places where free and independent media are virtually unknown.


A congressional inquiry is surely be in order to determine if VOA will continue to abide by its charter which demands it “serve as a consistently reliable and authoritative source of news. VOA news will be accurate, objective, and comprehensive.”

Taxpayers deserve to know whether the $637 million in funds the agency is looking for will pay for something they can be proud of, or whether this once respected news service is becoming an international Trump News Network.

Exactly. Radio Free Europe, Voice of America, and Radio Liberty were never intended to be battlegrounds for partisan politics in America. They were never intended to serve the immediate purpose of existing politics. Unless the topic is so blatantly one-sided (what to do about Osama bin Laden) or in which there is no legitimate other side (Jim Crow, COVID-19), there are at least two sides in just about any issue... and such is a consequence of democracy. We might as well be objective about ourselves. We are flawed as a people and most of us know that well. Of course, Donald Trump, whose commitment to democracy and fair play do not exist, wants the official image of America to fit his sick view of the world.

Mercifully, President Trump has little time in which to do his damage. There will be blowback, and it will be relatively easy to undo this damage. Unfortunately, by turning objective media accountable to a wide spectrum of Americans to one accountable only to Trump, we debase our efforts to support those who want freedom where it does not exist now. An essential part of democracy is the debate. At the extreme there is no debate in North Korea. 

We might as well be honest in showing that democracy is messy. Sure. Government is easy in North Korea: Dear Leader commands, and people do as he says lest they wish to bring ruin -- and even death -- to whole families. American racism and fundamentalist Protestantism are not good for export.

All objective evidence suggests that Donald Trump will be a one-term President.       

[pbrower2a]

(06-21-2020, 06:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Those people congregating online today are mostly the poor people and leaders of movements and groups, not so much the politicians. I don't know what motivates Classic Xer, really. Several things. Self-reliance is a good virtue. Self-responsibility too. We can improve our lives by using and expanding our consciousness and abilities. It's a matter of balance. The Republicans hold up self-reliance as the only valid economic virtue, and obedience to tradition the only moral or spiritual one. I disagree.

Responsibility and self-reliance are good things. The more commonplace they are, the stronger our society is. Of course, these fare best when they get rewards. These are no excuses for an entrenched elite telling that responsibility means strictly that the common man suffer for the economic elites so that the little man can endure an animal-like existence while elites wallow in opulent splendor. The latter is what Trump wants as does the bulk of the Republican Party.  

Quote:In my experience, the bosses, whether profit or non-profit, could always find some reason to fire me or some of my friends. Bosses don't care about anything but their power and money, as a rule. To allow them to oppress us and keep us in poverty on the rationale of self-reliance causes a society where 40% or more of the people are poor and only a few are rich. But society in this condition will not survive, nor is it a worthwhile society in which to live. We all depend on each other, and when 40% of the people are suffering in the midst of riches, our society is in danger. Self-reliance is great, but so is compassion, justice, and competent thought and awareness. So is democracy in the workplace, and everyplace.

That is why we need an economic order more congenial to small business. We need more capitalism, and not less. Monopolistic profit and excessive compensation to business executives are not capitalism; they are consequences of class privilege that has nothing to do with a free and competitive market 

Quote:It's interesting that just like Occupy, and the Parkland students, this "poor people's campaign for moral revival" claims to be non-partisan, even though they ask people to vote and voice the same stances as progressive Democrats do. They try to avoid being labeled by people like Classic Xer, because politics is devalued the way Classic Xer devalues it. That will not work; people today need to be partisan.

The Democratic Party can become a big-tent Party. If the choice is between a democratic party and a fascist or Marxist-Leninist Party, such is less desirable than democracy within one party. Consider the Democratic Party in the USA in the 1930's or the African National Congress in South Africa in the late 1990's. Historically the Democratic Party has twice outlived its competition (Federalists and Whigs), only to itself have a dissident wing emerge and become a separate Party. That is how the Republican party emerged in the 1850's; it is arguable that the Republican Party lost most relevance in the 1930's only to re-emerge. 

This said, we don't need any Party that reeks of fascism.

[Eric the Green]

We hire Democrats to take action through the government to help the people, and people ruling over the bosses. Republicans are hired for laissez faire, let the bosses rule, and boost the bosses.

Of course, when Democrats don't do this appointed job sufficiently well, the voters say, oh well, let the bosses rule.

[TnT]

John Dickerson just published a book "The Hardest Job in the World." It's well documented history about the Presidency. Brilliant.

[Classic-Xer]

(06-21-2020, 06:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Those people congregating online today are mostly the poor people and leaders of movements and groups, not so much the politicians. I don't know what motivates Classic Xer, really. Several things. Self-reliance is a good virtue. Self-responsibility too. We can improve our lives by using and expanding our consciousness and abilities. It's a matter of balance. The Republicans hold up self-reliance as the only valid economic virtue, and obedience to tradition the only moral or spiritual one. I disagree.

In my experience, the bosses, whether profit or non-profit, could always find some reason to fire me or some of my friends. Bosses don't care about anything but their power and money, as a rule. To allow them to oppress us and keep us in poverty on the rationale of self-reliance causes a society where 40% or more of the people are poor and only a few are rich. But society in this condition will not survive, nor is it a worthwhile society in which to live. We all depend on each other, and when 40% of the people are suffering in the midst of riches, our society is in danger. Self-reliance is great, but so is compassion, justice, and competent thought and awareness. So is democracy in the workplace, and everyplace.

It's interesting that just like Occupy, and the Parkland students, this "poor people's campaign for moral revival" claims to be non-partisan, even though they ask people to vote and voice the same stances as progressive Democrats do. They try to avoid being labeled by people like Classic Xer, because politics is devalued the way Classic Xer devalues it. That will not work; people today need to be partisan.

So, you think using racism and blaming everything on racism must add value or something. Here's a fact, I don't depend on you for anything and I'm glad that I don't have to rely on you for anything of higher value or greater importance either. I'd pretty much be fucked if that were the case and my only option these days.

[Classic-Xer]

(06-22-2020, 02:09 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-22-2020, 12:20 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 08:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I you include the Ages of Civilization pattern, an autocratic dictatorship, regardless of whether you call them left or right, is from the Agricultural Age.  Given the arrow of progress, and how the dictators are generally opposed to human rights, equality and democracy, the Ages perspective is far more pertinent than the left - right squabbling that goes into any Industrial Age society.

But Classic has to defend his worldview somehow.  You wouldn't want to make him thing for himself, would you?  As is typical of red partisans there are certain aspects of reality that are walled out from comprehension.  Busting through is nigh on impossible.

I would like to say the blue are different, but both are partisan ideological political systems, and the idea of checking against reality and revising a theory to match realty is under the purview of scientific world views...

Nope. He doesn't want me to be able to think for myself anymore than you want me to think for myself at this point. It's to much trouble for those with weak minds to handle and contend with these days.

I know.  But I keep trying.  The common bit isn't weak minds, but a tendency to fall in love with a political perspective, an ideological mindset.  You have to check against reality.  But a common theme at least here is that political ideology persists.

This seems like very good advice for yourself. You need a reality check before reality hits so to speak.

[Eric the Green]

(06-22-2020, 10:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 06:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Those people congregating online today are mostly the poor people and leaders of movements and groups, not so much the politicians. I don't know what motivates Classic Xer, really. Several things. Self-reliance is a good virtue. Self-responsibility too. We can improve our lives by using and expanding our consciousness and abilities. It's a matter of balance. The Republicans hold up self-reliance as the only valid economic virtue, and obedience to tradition the only moral or spiritual one. I disagree.

In my experience, the bosses, whether profit or non-profit, could always find some reason to fire me or some of my friends. Bosses don't care about anything but their power and money, as a rule. To allow them to oppress us and keep us in poverty on the rationale of self-reliance causes a society where 40% or more of the people are poor and only a few are rich. But society in this condition will not survive, nor is it a worthwhile society in which to live. We all depend on each other, and when 40% of the people are suffering in the midst of riches, our society is in danger. Self-reliance is great, but so is compassion, justice, and competent thought and awareness. So is democracy in the workplace, and everyplace.

It's interesting that just like Occupy, and the Parkland students, this "poor people's campaign for moral revival" claims to be non-partisan, even though they ask people to vote and voice the same stances as progressive Democrats do. They try to avoid being labeled by people like Classic Xer, because politics is devalued the way Classic Xer devalues it. That will not work; people today need to be partisan.

So, you think using racism and blaming everything on racism must add value or something. Here's a fact, I don't depend on you for anything and I'm glad that I don't have to rely on you for anything of higher value or greater importance either. I'd pretty much be fucked if that were the case and my only option these days.

You seem to be hung up on racism and see it everywhere, except in yourself of course, where it is. I didn't mention it once in this post.

I mentioned bosses, of which you are one, although a petty one. But perhaps you have aspirations of being in Trump Tower or someplace like that as CEO of a big corporation, looking down on the poor folks below and claiming all your riches are tricking down to them when you know they are not. I wish you well in achieving your dream, and not only will you not need me to achieve it, you may have to get folks like me out of the way to achieve it.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-23-2020, 11:47 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 01:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 02:09 AM)taramarie Wrote: "Right now, the American right is still recognized as being the authority and the upholders of American law and defenders of the US Constitution, American establishment and all its people/citizens and it's government." By who, Classic?

By the Left silly. I've been showing the Left and warning the Left about what's going to happen to them for years.

I see. Thank you for answering. Btw, Eric, why state Classic is racist? Where has he shown he is racist? I have not so far seen one post of his that shows this. He threatens with violence constantly, but never have i seen a post that shows he is racist. The one who goes on about racism like a broken record is you. It is rampant in your country by what i have seen, but you are throwing daggers at those as it seems towards the wrong person.

He does not directly comment on race, but tends to be all in favor of the violent racist cops and against the protestors. It kind of puts him on the wrong side.

[David Horn]

(06-22-2020, 04:08 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We hire Democrats to take action through the government to help the people, and people ruling over the bosses. Republicans are hired for laissez faire, let the bosses rule, and boost the bosses.

Of course, when Democrats don't do this appointed job sufficiently well, the voters say, oh well, let the bosses rule.

You've hit on one of my major pet peeves: Democrats seem unable to stir themselves to action; Republicans can't seem to stop.  This year, there are several GOP-centric anti-Trump activist groups working hard to put the man out on the street.  They're putting up a steady stream of ads, and putting them where they know they'll count the most.  Where are the Democrats?  More to the point: where is their anger?  

When the GOP held the House, they ran non-stop investigations -- mostly of Hillary.  Once impeachment ended, the Dems, in a similar position, just went to sleep. People notice -- especially those folks who need convincing.  So far, the Dems are on autopilot.  Autopilot may win this year, but just winning isn't the point.  They need to dominate, and it's a role they don't embrace.  Pity.

[Classic-Xer]

(06-23-2020, 12:32 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-23-2020, 12:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-23-2020, 11:47 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 01:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 02:09 AM)taramarie Wrote: "Right now, the American right is still recognized as being the authority and the upholders of American law and defenders of the US Constitution, American establishment and all its people/citizens and it's government." By who, Classic?

By the Left silly. I've been showing the Left and warning the Left about what's going to happen to them for years.

I see. Thank you for answering. Btw, Eric, why state Classic is racist? Where has he shown he is racist? I have not so far seen one post of his that shows this. He threatens with violence constantly, but never have i seen a post that shows he is racist. The one who goes on about racism like a broken record is you. It is rampant in your country by what i have seen, but you are throwing daggers at those as it seems towards the wrong person.

He does not directly comment on race, but tends to be all in favor of the violent racist cops and against the protestors.  It kind of puts him on the wrong side.

Does not make him racist though. He may also be against how it is being carried out. Though i am surprised he is for the cops if true as i did not think he would be for something that is against the constitution. I thought that free speech is a protected right in the USA. Unless as i stated, he is against how the protest is taking place. We need to also consider that under certain circumstances by the sounds of what he has said if he feels his rights are being taken away from him he will fight for his rights. Even with guns if necessary. Which makes it interesting if he is against others fighting for theirs. I look forward to what his statement is on this. Can you clear this up, Classic?

I don't have the right to destroy public or private property that upsets me or the right to rob people and loot stores or the to block off/shut down a freeway system and so forth like other law abiding people who live in this country. I don't have a problem with free speech or a problem with peaceful protests or a problem watching a bunch of Democratic women walking around and looking silly with pink vaginas hats on their heads and acting like all their American rights were taken away or acting like they're all some how or another being oppressed.

You don't seem to know much about the US or the growing political divide here. Covid19 didn't bring us together and the latest thingy that happened in my state isn't going to bring us together after all the shit that went on during and afterwards and is still going on in some places today's. You see, about half the country are done with the Left and their Democrats all together, about a quarter of it are stilling clinging to a working class party that no longer exists and about a quarter of it are done with the country, hate the countr for whatever reason and want to destroy it and start over from scratch. It's not racism that's dividing us these days.

I could give to shits about the color of a persons skin and give two shits about the color of a cop victims skin or the about the color of a cops skin either. In America, white cops killing black dudes makes big drama and increases rating. It's funny, in the liberal world, blacks can kill each other by the thousands and abort each other by the millions but if a white cop happens to kill one we all have to know about it and the world has to know about it too. But, we don't know or hear a damn thing when a Hispanic cop or an Asian cop or a black cop kills one them. one of their own or one of us or a criminal kills a cop. As far as violence, I will resort to violence like most people and I've made that clear to liberals with dreams of grandeur that include fundamentally changing the United States.

[Classic-Xer]

(06-22-2020, 11:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You seem to be hung up on racism and see it everywhere, except in yourself of course, where it is. I didn't mention it once in this post.

I mentioned bosses, of which you are one, although a petty one. But perhaps you have aspirations of being in Trump Tower or someplace like that as CEO of a big corporation, looking down on the poor folks below and claiming all your riches are tricking down to them when you know they are not. I wish you well in achieving your dream, and not only will you not need me to achieve it, you may have to get folks like me out of the way to achieve it.

Yep...I'm a petty boss compared to someone like Donald Trump. I have no aspirations to become a big business owner these days. I've been pretty content with my life all along for the most part. As for you and the poor and your needs, I'm not in on the cut so to speak. I'm cool with trickle down for me and whatever economic system a group of liberals eventually come up with for you and their poor and whatever poor comes in from other countries or migrates from other states as the nation splits ideologically.

[Eric the Green]

(06-23-2020, 10:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-23-2020, 12:32 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-23-2020, 12:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-23-2020, 11:47 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-21-2020, 01:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: By the Left silly. I've been showing the Left and warning the Left about what's going to happen to them for years.

I see. Thank you for answering. Btw, Eric, why state Classic is racist? Where has he shown he is racist? I have not so far seen one post of his that shows this. He threatens with violence constantly, but never have i seen a post that shows he is racist. The one who goes on about racism like a broken record is you. It is rampant in your country by what i have seen, but you are throwing daggers at those as it seems towards the wrong person.

He does not directly comment on race, but tends to be all in favor of the violent racist cops and against the protesters.  It kind of puts him on the wrong side.

Does not make him racist though. He may also be against how it is being carried out. Though i am surprised he is for the cops if true as i did not think he would be for something that is against the constitution. I thought that free speech is a protected right in the USA. Unless as i stated, he is against how the protest is taking place. We need to also consider that under certain circumstances by the sounds of what he has said if he feels his rights are being taken away from him he will fight for his rights. Even with guns if necessary. Which makes it interesting if he is against others fighting for theirs. I look forward to what his statement is on this. Can you clear this up, Classic?

I don't have the right to destroy public or private property that upsets me or the right to rob people and loot stores or the to block off/shut down a freeway system and so forth like other law abiding people who live in this country. I don't have a problem with free speech or a problem with peaceful protests or a problem watching a bunch of Democratic women walking around and looking silly with pink vaginas hats on their heads and acting like all their American rights were taken away or acting like they're all some how or another being oppressed.

You don't seem to know much about the US or the growing political divide here. Covid19 didn't bring us together and the latest thingy that happened in my state isn't going to bring us together after all the shit that went on during and afterwards and is still going on in some places today's. You see, about half the country are done with the Left and their Democrats all together, about a quarter of it are stilling clinging to a working class party that no longer exists and about a quarter of it are done with the country, hate the country for whatever reason and want to destroy it and start over from scratch. It's not racism that's dividing us these days.

I could give two shits about the color of a persons skin and give two shits about the color of a cop victims skin or the about the color of a cops skin either. In America, white cops killing black dudes makes big drama and increases rating. It's funny, in the liberal world, blacks can kill each other by the thousands and abort each other by the millions but if a white cop happens to kill one we all have to know about it and the world has to know about it too. But, we don't know or hear a damn thing when a Hispanic cop or an Asian cop or a black cop kills one them, one of their own, or one of us, or a criminal kills a cop. As far as violence, I will resort to violence like most people and I've made that clear to liberals with dreams of grandeur that include fundamentally changing the United States.

Classic Xer's racism comes out in statements like "one of us" (meaning white people) and his statements about whom he doesn't want to support with his taxes, whom he wants to keep out of the country, and so forth. But it's mostly that he does not care about any of the concerns of the people whom he calls the Left, and does not care about what happens to black "dudes" murdered by the cops. As for his "rights" to be defended by guns if necessary, it is only the guns themselves that he is concerned about defending his "rights" to. People like me on the Left don't care too much about those rights. We are willing to compromise on the issue, but people like Classic are not.

Classic's description about where "America" is right now is not far wrong. The Left may not be as powerful or popular as the Left thinks it is. Some on the Left are all in a tizzy that their candidate didn't win, and conclude the system is rigged. But Classic may not be correct entirely, because that "one quarter that cling to the working class party" are becoming more and more in agreement with the Left's agenda. He does not see his own racism in the mirror, even if it's only a tinge. Nor does he see that race still divides the country, just as it divides himself off from the Left. But Reaganomics is enthusiastically embraced by his half of the country (which may be dwindling down to about 40% these days), and Reaganomics is actually racist. Reagan began his campaign the same way as Trump just did, by starting it in a place where blacks were slaughtered. Reaganomics is built on resentment about paying taxes to help the poor, and the poor that they see their taxes go to are mostly non-white. Rather than come out and say they want to keep blacks and hispanics in their place, his side elects politicians who keep them in their place by promising to lower their taxes and who refuse to make any changes that might open up society to more advancement by blacks, or allow immigrants into the country who they think might compete with them, and who might degrade or "destroy" their society or make it less comfortable for them by making it less white.

Black on black crime is a real problem, I admit. There have been abortions and one parent families. Welfare mothers are used as a giant scapegoat by Reagan/Bush/Trump. It's not the problem they say it is, nor is immigration, but it makes a good target for politicians like Trump who stoke hatred and fear to get votes. Blacks do need to better educate and support their own. But it has been hard to rise above 400 years of slavery, discrimination and lynchings, and education is not well funded in poor areas. Of course we do hear about cops being killed too, and people in deep blue Santa Cruz CA flock to ceremonies to honor one in the midst of a pandemic, one who was killed by one of their own who got mixed up with the boogaloo boys.

What the conservatives like Classic flatly refuse to see or admit, to their own peril, is that we all rise or fall together. He might want to separate his half of the country off so he doesn't have to pay more taxes and can keep all his semi-machine guns, and better keep the immigrants out, and we on the other side may want to separate so the other side doesn't keep us on course to return to the Dark Ages. But the fact is, when the government supports and keeps people from falling into poverty because of discrimination and greed by the bosses who fire them and don't pay them well and pollute their town, and supports what works best when all the people pay for it, then business prospers because it has more customers. When government doesn't do this, then those few who benefit from the lower taxes and regulations grab up all the wealth, and economic and political power concentrates while the needs and real rights of the people are neglected. That's what has happened in the USA for 40 years. The middle class is shrinking and poverty is increasing. Some people like Classic don't feel the effects too much, so they don't realize what is happening to the nation they claim to love so much. But others do.

So we have a decision to make this decade. Do we separate, and allow one half to progress and the other to wallow in its delusions? Or do enough people see the problem with a Party and a leader who doesn't care about anything but its own power, to vote it out for good and restart the progress that was cut short in 1980?

Interestingly, most of the richest people who benefit from Reaganomics live in blue states. They know a good thing, and have the money to buy it. If red and blue states (and counties, probably) separate, the rich will have their wings clipped severely unless they move to red states and live in the fields of Nebraska instead of in penthouses with ocean views. Will they be able to navigate this situation, I wonder?

[Eric the Green]

(06-20-2020, 06:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Boy are you way off track with the your understanding of the RW, 2nd Amendment folks and what it is that gets them all up in arms these days? Nope, they're weren't your typical light security mall cops like the liberal Democrats seem prefer and want to replace most of our city cops with these days. Those were our kind of our RW cops that a couple of your LW radicals gunned down in cold blood that caught the attention of the FBI who as we know as concerned about stepping up and doing the job that liberal Democrats either willingly refuse to do or afraid to do due to their relatively close political ties with the Left these day or fears of their cozy blue being basically over run and looted those we seen on TV. Right now, the American right is still recognized as being the authority and the upholders of American law and defenders of the US Constitution, American establishment and all its people/citizens and it's government. In all the years of of us posting, I've rarely seen an American view, an American position or an understanding or an acceptance or an embrace of American values and the American way of life. Whether we split or go to war and  take part in a major bloodbath is largely on the Democrats ability to keep the peace and resolve their major problems. You don't speak for me or  the American government. You speak for yourself, the Left and the kind of government that the Left prefers to have instead of ours and once that becomes apparent to most Americans these days, the more we are going see more of what we've seen taking place (the spirals of large scale violence) in blue cities since Obama entered his second term in office and tried to move America backwards to a time when the big government related Democrats/ the old social conservative Democrats  pretty much called the shots.

I'm not at all clear on what your last long sentence is predicting, exactly.

You talk about American this and American that, but I would like to see you define just what being "American" means to you. 

What is the "American" law, establishment, view, position, values, way of life or government?

[Classic-Xer]

(06-24-2020, 05:03 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Classic Xer's racism comes out in statements like "one of us" (meaning white people) and his statements about whom he doesn't want to support with his taxes, whom he wants to keep out of the country, and so forth. But it's mostly that he does not care about any of the concerns of the people whom he calls the Left, and does not care about what happens to black "dudes" murdered by the cops. As for his "rights" to be defended by guns if necessary, it is only the guns themselves that he is concerned about defending his "rights" to. People like me on the Left don't care too much about those rights. We are willing to compromise on the issue, but people like Classic are not.

Classic's description about where "America" is right now is not far wrong. The Left may not be as powerful or popular as the Left thinks it is. Some on the Left are all in a tizzy that their candidate didn't win, and conclude the system is rigged. But Classic may not be correct entirely, because that "one quarter that cling to the working class party" are becoming more and more in agreement with the Left's agenda. He does not see his own racism in the mirror, even if it's only a tinge. Nor does he see that race still divides the country, just as it divides himself off from the Left. But Reaganomics is enthusiastically embraced by his half of the country (which may be dwindling down to about 40% these days), and Reaganomics is actually racist. Reagan began his campaign the same way as Trump just did, by starting it in a place where blacks were slaughtered. Reaganomics is built on resentment about paying taxes to help the poor, and the poor that they see their taxes go to are mostly non-white. Rather than come out and say they want to keep blacks and hispanics in their place, his side elects politicians who keep them in their place by promising to lower their taxes and who refuse to make any changes that might open up society to more advancement by blacks, or allow immigrants into the country who they think might compete with them, and who might degrade or "destroy" their society or make it less comfortable for them by making it less white.

Black on black crime is a real problem, I admit. There have been abortions and one parent families. Welfare mothers are used as a giant scapegoat by Reagan/Bush/Trump. It's not the problem they say it is, nor is immigration, but it makes a good target for politicians like Trump who stoke hatred and fear to get votes. Blacks do need to better educate and support their own. But it has been hard to rise above 400 years of slavery, discrimination and lynchings, and education is not well funded in poor areas. Of course we do hear about cops being killed too, and people in deep blue Santa Cruz CA flock to ceremonies to honor one in the midst of a pandemic, one who was killed by one of their own who got mixed up with the boogaloo boys.

What the conservatives like Classic flatly refuse to see or admit, to their own peril, is that we all rise or fall together. He might want to separate his half of the country off so he doesn't have to pay more taxes and can keep all his semi-machine guns, and better keep the immigrants out, and we on the other side may want to separate so the other side doesn't keep us on course to return to the Dark Ages. But the fact is, when the government supports and keeps people from falling into poverty because of discrimination and greed by the bosses who fire them and don't pay them well and pollute their town, and supports what works best when all the people pay for it, then business prospers because it has more customers. When government doesn't do this, then those few who benefit from the lower taxes and regulations grab up all the wealth, and economic and political power concentrates while the needs and real rights of the people are neglected. That's what has happened in the USA for 40 years. The middle class is shrinking and poverty is increasing. Some people like Classic don't feel the effects too much, so they don't realize what is happening to the nation they claim to love so much. But others do.

So we have a decision to make this decade. Do we separate, and allow one half to progress and the other to wallow in its delusions? Or do enough people see the problem with a Party and a leader who doesn't care about anything but its own power, to vote it out for good and restart the progress that was cut short in 1980?

Interestingly, most of the richest people who benefit from Reaganomics live in blue states. They know a good thing, and have the money to buy it. If red and blue states (and counties, probably) separate, the rich will have their wings clipped severely unless they move to red states and live in the fields of Nebraska instead of in penthouses with ocean views. Will they be able to navigate this situation, I wonder?

It's funny, as far as I know, you are "one of us" too. I don't care if you end up being the poor white that they've been taught to hate. Like I said, you're the dead man and how they do it ain't going to matter to me. I'm sure that there are readers and posters who are "one of us", "one of them", "one of those" , "one of something else" or a mixture of races.  So, why are you so selective and so ignorant about context that "one of us" was used. Gee..even a low education person like myself is educated enough to identify context. Maybe, part of the problem is with us giving the self proclaimed/supposed/ so called higher educated side to much credit these days. Why are you to dumb to realize what you're really doing is wrong? 

Yes. The middle class was shrinking while the Democrats did little to nothing about it for last forty years. Is that our problem or a Democratic problem? Is flooding cities with more poor from every where for whatever reason our problem or another Democratic problem? Is the upper end " White Yuppi" Woke culture strumming it's nose and bad mouthing traditional American culture our problem or a Democratic problem too?

I'm going to tell something about real racists that you don't seem to grasp, the real racists will tell you that they're racists to your face regardless of their race. Personally, I could could give to shits less if Democratic America ends 70% minority and 30% privileged white and minority with the bulk of it's people being poor and living like peasants. That seems to be what the Democratic party really wants and prefers for itself these days. The Democratic seems to prefer powerless blacks remain powerless blacks with the exception of those they pick for higher office or the powerless blacks pick to represent them in the Democratic Congress that refer to themselves as the Black Caucus these days. Yes. If America were to split there will be financial repercussions and losses that will be felt and experienced by both sides initially or long term. Personally, I believe America could cut bait with the Left come out in relatively good shape and quickly rise and become a much more powerful and tighter knit country than it is today. We already know what's going to happen with the Left and it ain't going to be pretty or a decent place for Americans to live and raise Americans.