We're WEIRD. Get over it.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-25-2020, 11:36 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-22-2020, 12:37 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-22-2020, 12:02 AM)sbarrera Wrote: Bob, you seem to be saying that W.E.I.R.D. = blue zone. So what happens if the red zone takes over in 2021? Is that the end of the West?

As usual, things will get worse until it is decided to do something about it.  Trump being reelected is pretty much guaranteed to make things worse.  As Churchill allegedly said, America will eventually do the right thing, once they have tried everything else.  He did not mention doing a wrong thing twice.

I don't think a population to try to keep an unravelling going, to keep operating on the values of selfishness once the problems have surfaced.  I suspect the Democrats will triumph.  You are correct to worry, though.

The Hard Right has no intellectual appeal, whether it is the neo-Nazis or KKK types who drip with genocidal talk or Donald Trump's anti-intellectual followers. Marxism-Leninism still had some claim (however specious) to have an innovative program for restructuring the social order of all capitalist countries. That is over. Marxism-Leninism ossified quickly into an excuse for a bureaucratic elite, the nomenklatura, as oppressive and rapacious as aristocratic landowners People are coming to realize that concentration of power is itself inimical to democracy and  that the concentration of power is itself a source of inequality for its own sake. It may be that a nation of shopkeepers and yeoman farmers can better achieve and protect freedom than what we have now. 

 
The problem is this time around there were enough racists that white superiority was considered more important than workers getting their share of the pie.  This is not quite the same as the last crisis, where dictators attempted by military force to sieze a larger piece of the pie, with genocide or mass migrations as acceptable tools.

I am not disagreeing that institutional racism is a problem either way, but we deserved the bad government that resulted.  At the time it was the will of the people.  Trump is just an extreme example of that sort of thinking.  It takes an extremely bad abuse to trigger a crisis response.

(09-25-2020, 11:36 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The Corporate Right has its idea of freedom -- freedom to monopolize, to drive small-scale business out of business through buy-outs or ruin, to buy into the political process (government effectively obliged to serve wealth and bureaucratic power instead of the People), and to slough off responsibilities while imposing quasi-feudal duties upon the common man. Such at its worst is high-tech feudalism most closely imitated in Nazi Germany. Even without the genocide and aggressive warfare, Nazi Germany was a worker's Hell.

Agreed.

[David Horn]

(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you're not seeing, paying as much attention or  becoming more aware of the blue violence that the rest of the country has been seeing and watching  on a regular basis for months these days. The same stupid shit, night after night, month after month. I assume you are able to associate what they're doing with tribal thinking but you seem to be unaware that what you're doing and saying which is similar what they're thinking/believing and using as an excuse or justification   of what they're doing and attracting the interest of a large portion of the country that still believes in the age old American concept of might makes right and the idea of using American  force to establish order and make things right again for most of the country. You're still a member of the blue tribe right. You're a Weird member but you're still a loyal member of the blue tribe right. Eric can let go of the blue tribe and pledge allegiance to the green tribe because Eric has dual citizenship.

Rather than reply directly, I'll let you review the video response of someone who should be a member of your clan ... or maybe not.  The 6 minute video explains the 3minute song at the end of his most recent album, but it deserves attention on its own merit.  In short, it's a WTF to his own people*.

* The reference to the Battle of Blair Mountain deserves a look too ... a good long look.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-26-2020, 10:12 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you're not seeing, paying as much attention or  becoming more aware of the blue violence that the rest of the country has been seeing and watching  on a regular basis for months these days. The same stupid shit, night after night, month after month. I assume you are able to associate what they're doing with tribal thinking but you seem to be unaware that what you're doing and saying which is similar what they're thinking/believing and using as an excuse or justification   of what they're doing and attracting the interest of a large portion of the country that still believes in the age old American concept of might makes right and the idea of using American  force to establish order and make things right again for most of the country. You're still a member of the blue tribe right. You're a Weird member but you're still a loyal member of the blue tribe right. Eric can let go of the blue tribe and pledge allegiance to the green tribe because Eric has dual citizenship.

Rather than reply directly, I'll let you review the video response of someone who should be a member of your clan ... or maybe not.  The 6 minute video explains the 3minute song at the end of his most recent album, but it deserves attention on its own merit.  In short, it's a WTF to his own people*.

* The reference to the Battle of Blair Mountain deserves a look too ... a good long look.

Well, I think you should have picked a better person to use as an example myself. I mean, a recovering addict who started out by excluding himself from preaching prior to preaching tells me he ain't quite thinking straight and tells me the position he is in right (pretty much broke with nothing of value to show for it) now as far as his life and career. And what he has to do and say in order to restart his life and rekindle a career and be given a chance to release an album that's guaranteed not to flop these days.

I've heard the NFL has lost 25% of it's viewership. I don't mix business with politics myself. I prefer doing business with whole markets myself. So, how many fisherman with kids in the boat are shot by game wardens? How many game wardens are overly concerned about being shot or stabbed by a fishermen or a hunter for that matter these days? How many big city cops would prefer to be a game warden or a suburban cop or a private sector cop these days?

Personally speaking, I don't care if you and the Democrats go down with Black Lives Matter. You and them don't seem to care either at this point. So, I'd say both side content with nature running it coarse and nature to determining the winner. So, when we're done with them and the rich supporting them and its time to mop and let other hunt people like you down, do you see yourself still being around/alive or not? I figure the bulk of the Left Wing politicians are going to jump shit or opt to lay on their swords. Does that sound about right to you?

[pbrower2a]

Let's not forget: one need not be a person of color to be oppressed. Appalachia is poor and oppressed, and that has nothing to do with race. Maybe the Democrats who once got easy re-elections by standing with miners failed to invest in the future. Republicans have taken over by default, and they simply defer to the rapacious plutocrats of America.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-26-2020, 01:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personally speaking, I don't care if you and the Democrats go down with Black Lives Matter. You and them don't seem to care either at this point. So, I'd say both side content with nature running it coarse and nature to determining the winner. So, when we're done with them and the rich supporting them and its time to mop and let other hunt people like you down, do  you see yourself still being  around/alive or not? I figure the bulk of the Left Wing politicians are going to jump shit or opt to lay on their swords. Does that sound about right to you?

I do care if the racist violent cops commit violence. I do care when Trump tries to call in the military, though they seem to have drawn the lie. I care when Trump ties to instigate violence, sending various unlabeled secret police in in spite of the Constitution not giving him police powers. I care when red militias are not defending, but are instigating violence far from their home areas.

Red violence is the problem right now.

[David Horn]

(09-26-2020, 01:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-26-2020, 10:12 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you're not seeing, paying as much attention or  becoming more aware of the blue violence that the rest of the country has been seeing and watching  on a regular basis for months these days. The same stupid shit, night after night, month after month. I assume you are able to associate what they're doing with tribal thinking but you seem to be unaware that what you're doing and saying which is similar what they're thinking/believing and using as an excuse or justification   of what they're doing and attracting the interest of a large portion of the country that still believes in the age old American concept of might makes right and the idea of using American  force to establish order and make things right again for most of the country. You're still a member of the blue tribe right. You're a Weird member but you're still a loyal member of the blue tribe right. Eric can let go of the blue tribe and pledge allegiance to the green tribe because Eric has dual citizenship.

Rather than reply directly, I'll let you review the video response of someone who should be a member of your clan ... or maybe not.  The 6 minute video explains the 3minute song at the end of his most recent album, but it deserves attention on its own merit.  In short, it's a WTF to his own people*.

* The reference to the Battle of Blair Mountain deserves a look too ... a good long look.

Well, I think you should have picked a better person to use as an example myself. I mean, a recovering addict who started out by excluding himself from preaching prior to preaching tells me he ain't quite thinking straight and tells me the position he is in right (pretty much broke with nothing of value to show for it) now as far as his life and career. And what he has to do and say in order to restart his life and rekindle a career and be given a chance to release an album that's guaranteed not to flop these days.

FWIW, he's a major star in root music, and doesn't need validation by you, me or anyone else.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I've heard the NFL has lost 25% of it's viewership. I don't mix business with politics myself. I prefer doing business with whole markets myself.  So, how many fisherman with kids in the boat are shot by game wardens? How many game wardens are overly concerned about being shot or stabbed by a fishermen or a hunter for that matter these days? How many big city cops would prefer to be a game warden or a suburban cop or a private sector cop these days?

He was making the point that the same things can happen to anyone given the right circumstances. He picked the examples he did to bring that home to his mostly working class Appalachian audience.

Classic-Xer Wrote:Personally speaking, I don't care if you and the Democrats go down with Black Lives Matter. You and them don't seem to care either at this point. So, I'd say both side content with nature running it coarse and nature to determining the winner. So, when we're done with them and the rich supporting them and its time to mop and let other hunt people like you down, do  you see yourself still being  around/alive or not? I figure the bulk of the Left Wing politicians are going to jump shit or opt to lay on their swords. Does that sound about right to you?

Let's assume that Trump and the GOP lose big this election (ignore the possibility that Trump may try to steal it anyway). How does the anger he's generated in his followers get released? The odds say that result is more likely than not and by a substantial margin. Are you and yours ready to start an anarchist revolution?

[pbrower2a]

(09-26-2020, 01:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-26-2020, 10:12 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you're not seeing, paying as much attention or  becoming more aware of the blue violence that the rest of the country has been seeing and watching  on a regular basis for months these days. The same stupid shit, night after night, month after month. I assume you are able to associate what they're doing with tribal thinking but you seem to be unaware that what you're doing and saying which is similar what they're thinking/believing and using as an excuse or justification   of what they're doing and attracting the interest of a large portion of the country that still believes in the age old American concept of might makes right and the idea of using American  force to establish order and make things right again for most of the country. You're still a member of the blue tribe right. You're a Weird member but you're still a loyal member of the blue tribe right. Eric can let go of the blue tribe and pledge allegiance to the green tribe because Eric has dual citizenship.

Rather than reply directly, I'll let you review the video response of someone who should be a member of your clan ... or maybe not.  The 6 minute video explains the 3minute song at the end of his most recent album, but it deserves attention on its own merit.  In short, it's a WTF to his own people*.

* The reference to the Battle of Blair Mountain deserves a look too ... a good long look.

Well, I think you should have picked a better person to use as an example myself. I mean, a recovering addict who started out by excluding himself from preaching prior to preaching tells me he ain't quite thinking straight and tells me the position he is in right (pretty much broke with nothing of value to show for it) now as far as his life and career. And what he has to do and say in order to restart his life and rekindle a career and be given a chance to release an album that's guaranteed not to flop these days.

It is easy to think of addiction as a moral failure. Everybody faces some slip-up, and nobody decides to become an addict. Drugs and booze take over. Addiction is real and it is difficult to give up. Drugs and alcohol can become physical dependency, and doing without the chemical that keeps one from experiencing life at its most painful is physically difficult. 

Entertainers are particularly prone to addiction. Once successful they have crazy money, and they are often not worldly enough to recognize the stupidity of "trying this" when someone tells them that cocaine is the most wonderful thing ever made. I don't know for myself, but from what I have seen in print media and heard on broadcasting is that it gives a pointless high that makes everything else seem stale by contrast. Many entertainment careers go into rapid decline (film stars and musicians) when the stars find the 'nose candy'.    

Quote:I've heard the NFL has lost 25% of it's viewership. I don't mix business with politics myself. I prefer doing business with whole markets myself.  So, how many fisherman with kids in the boat are shot by game wardens? How many game wardens are overly concerned about being shot or stabbed by a fishermen or a hunter for that matter these days? How many big city cops would prefer to be a game warden or a suburban cop or a private sector cop these days?

State troopers are paid well in Michigan -- well enough that the job is quite attractive to people with college degrees. They can often see results in something like reductions in vehicle crashes and road fatalities as they nab speeders and drunk drivers. They know better than non-cops how to deal with some dangerous people. Drug activity scares them because drug users are unpredictable and drug dealers have a big stake in not being caught. Wildlife enforcers and park rangers are law enforcement... and, yes, people are known to take their bad habits into the wilderness. The wilderness is a good area in which to dispose of a troublesome body, as Ted Bundy showed. Raccoons. let alone bears, coyotes, and cougars, can more efficiently dispose of the corpus delicti whose deceased possessor one raped and murdered. 

As for suburbia being a police paradise... Suburbia is becoming increasingly urban in character. Just think of Greater Los Angeles. Technically, most cities in the armpit of Indiana are suburbs... some suburbs to the south of the Borman Expressway (I-80/94) expressway aren't bad places, but the old industrial suburbs of Chicago are awful... they were doing well when the American steel industry was booming, but that is over.

Private-sector law-enforcement? That is mostly the low end of security guards who wear a uniform and carry a badge. They are most likely to be deputized to enforce laws against shoplifting in a store. They need little training, and such shows in their pay. The exceptions are moonlighting cops who work in a liquor store as a deterrent to armed robberies.    

Quote:Personally speaking, I don't care if you and the Democrats go down with Black Lives Matter. You and them don't seem to care either at this point. So, I'd say both side content with nature running it course and nature to determining the winner. So, when we're done with them and the rich supporting them and its time to mop and let other hunt people like you down, do  you see yourself still being  around/alive or not? I figure the bulk of the Left Wing politicians are going to jump shit or opt to lay on their swords. Does that sound about right to you?

Note well that Black Lives Matter has everything to do with police reform and nothing with reorganization of the economic system. I want the cops to do their jobs and do them well, which means that they do not use excessive force. Their appointed duty in an arrest is to bring an alleged offender back alive to formal detention where that person comes under the scrutiny of the legal system. 

In view of bullet-proof vests, one of the big perils of police work (a crook trying to shoot it out with the police) has abated greatly. Police are now more likely to die in vehicle crashes than in confrontations with criminals. Pull a gun on a cop and you will die. At one time Death Rows were full of cop-killers; today the would-be cop killers are typically spared the experience of Death Row in some states because the police are more likely to kill them. 

We are in need of major reforms of urban police when one finds that offenders who pose no threat of death or grave bodily harm to a police officer or the general public in a confrontation who get killed in encounters with the police are disproportionately black.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-27-2020, 08:19 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-26-2020, 01:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-26-2020, 10:12 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you're not seeing, paying as much attention or  becoming more aware of the blue violence that the rest of the country has been seeing and watching  on a regular basis for months these days. The same stupid shit, night after night, month after month. I assume you are able to associate what they're doing with tribal thinking but you seem to be unaware that what you're doing and saying which is similar what they're thinking/believing and using as an excuse or justification   of what they're doing and attracting the interest of a large portion of the country that still believes in the age old American concept of might makes right and the idea of using American  force to establish order and make things right again for most of the country. You're still a member of the blue tribe right. You're a Weird member but you're still a loyal member of the blue tribe right. Eric can let go of the blue tribe and pledge allegiance to the green tribe because Eric has dual citizenship.

Rather than reply directly, I'll let you review the video response of someone who should be a member of your clan ... or maybe not.  The 6 minute video explains the 3minute song at the end of his most recent album, but it deserves attention on its own merit.  In short, it's a WTF to his own people*.

* The reference to the Battle of Blair Mountain deserves a look too ... a good long look.

Well, I think you should have picked a better person to use as an example myself. I mean, a recovering addict who started out by excluding himself from preaching prior to preaching tells me he ain't quite thinking straight and tells me the position he is in right (pretty much broke with nothing of value to show for it) now as far as his life and career. And what he has to do and say in order to restart his life and rekindle a career and be given a chance to release an album that's guaranteed not to flop these days.

FWIW, he's a major star in root music, and doesn't need validation by you, me or anyone else.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I've heard the NFL has lost 25% of it's viewership. I don't mix business with politics myself. I prefer doing business with whole markets myself.  So, how many fisherman with kids in the boat are shot by game wardens? How many game wardens are overly concerned about being shot or stabbed by a fishermen or a hunter for that matter these days? How many big city cops would prefer to be a game warden or a suburban cop or a private sector cop these days?

He was making the point that the same things can happen to anyone given the right circumstances. He picked the examples he did to bring that home to his mostly working class Appalachian audience.

Classic-Xer Wrote:Personally speaking, I don't care if you and the Democrats go down with Black Lives Matter. You and them don't seem to care either at this point. So, I'd say both side content with nature running it coarse and nature to determining the winner. So, when we're done with them and the rich supporting them and its time to mop and let other hunt people like you down, do  you see yourself still being  around/alive or not? I figure the bulk of the Left Wing politicians are going to jump shit or opt to lay on their swords. Does that sound about right to you?

Let's assume that Trump and the GOP lose big this election (ignore the possibility that Trump may try to steal it anyway). How does the anger he's generated in his followers get released?  The odds say that result is more likely than not and by a substantial margin. Are you and yours ready to start an anarchist revolution?

If he doesn't/didn't need validation then why did go against his own judgement and contradict himself? I think he did it as a means to save face with his kin/ fans, protect the future of his musical career and please his corporate masters myself but you're free to think/ feel otherwise. So, why do you keep underestimating the power and influence of the American Right and continue to believe inaccurate polls and continue to believe the Left Wing media and continue to believe minorities are all the same and women are all the same and gays are all the same and and Democratic people are all the same and so forth? Why do you tend to forget that you still live in an American country and forget that Americans have the Constitutional right to defend themselves and their country? Dude, we won't be anarchists, we'll be directly engaging with anarchists and waging war with anarchists and when we're done with them, we'll be coming for you and whoever is left as far as your politicians/government officials and rich people. It's a bummer that PB has a mental disorder that hampers his natural ability to see and think straight these days.

[pbrower2a]

(09-29-2020, 12:23 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-27-2020, 08:19 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-26-2020, 01:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-26-2020, 10:12 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you're not seeing, paying as much attention or  becoming more aware of the blue violence that the rest of the country has been seeing and watching  on a regular basis for months these days. The same stupid shit, night after night, month after month. I assume you are able to associate what they're doing with tribal thinking but you seem to be unaware that what you're doing and saying which is similar what they're thinking/believing and using as an excuse or justification   of what they're doing and attracting the interest of a large portion of the country that still believes in the age old American concept of might makes right and the idea of using American  force to establish order and make things right again for most of the country. You're still a member of the blue tribe right. You're a Weird member but you're still a loyal member of the blue tribe right. Eric can let go of the blue tribe and pledge allegiance to the green tribe because Eric has dual citizenship.

Rather than reply directly, I'll let you review the video response of someone who should be a member of your clan ... or maybe not.  The 6 minute video explains the 3minute song at the end of his most recent album, but it deserves attention on its own merit.  In short, it's a WTF to his own people*.

* The reference to the Battle of Blair Mountain deserves a look too ... a good long look.

Well, I think you should have picked a better person to use as an example myself. I mean, a recovering addict who started out by excluding himself from preaching prior to preaching tells me he ain't quite thinking straight and tells me the position he is in right (pretty much broke with nothing of value to show for it) now as far as his life and career. And what he has to do and say in order to restart his life and rekindle a career and be given a chance to release an album that's guaranteed not to flop these days.

FWIW, he's a major star in root music, and doesn't need validation by you, me or anyone else.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I've heard the NFL has lost 25% of it's viewership. I don't mix business with politics myself. I prefer doing business with whole markets myself.  So, how many fisherman with kids in the boat are shot by game wardens? How many game wardens are overly concerned about being shot or stabbed by a fishermen or a hunter for that matter these days? How many big city cops would prefer to be a game warden or a suburban cop or a private sector cop these days?

He was making the point that the same things can happen to anyone given the right circumstances. He picked the examples he did to bring that home to his mostly working class Appalachian audience.

Classic-Xer Wrote:Personally speaking, I don't care if you and the Democrats go down with Black Lives Matter. You and them don't seem to care either at this point. So, I'd say both side content with nature running it coarse and nature to determining the winner. So, when we're done with them and the rich supporting them and its time to mop and let other hunt people like you down, do  you see yourself still being  around/alive or not? I figure the bulk of the Left Wing politicians are going to jump shit or opt to lay on their swords. Does that sound about right to you?

Let's assume that Trump and the GOP lose big this election (ignore the possibility that Trump may try to steal it anyway). How does the anger he's generated in his followers get released?  The odds say that result is more likely than not and by a substantial margin. Are you and yours ready to start an anarchist revolution?

If he doesn't/didn't need validation then why did go against his own judgment and contradict himself?  I think he did it as a means to save face with his kin/ fans, protect the future of his musical career and please his corporate masters myself but you're free to think/ feel otherwise. So, why do you keep underestimating the power and influence of the American Right and continue to believe inaccurate polls and continue to believe the Left Wing media and continue to believe minorities are all the same and women are all the same and gays are all the same and and Democratic people are all the same and so forth? Why do you tend to forget that you still live in an American country and forget that Americans have the Constitutional right to defend themselves and their country? Dude, we won't be anarchists, we'll be directly engaging with anarchists and waging war with anarchists and when we're done with them, we'll be coming for you and whoever is left as far as your politicians/government officials and rich people.  It's a bummer that PB has a mental disorder that hampers his natural ability to see and think straight these days.

This is difficult to figure out. Are you talking about Donald Trump or about Tyler Childers?

... As for Tyler Childers, he is in some ways the freest person in the world, someone who knows that he is dying but who can still leave a memorable legacy. He can make final statements that offend the sensibilities of employers, critics, and other authorities . He need not concern himself with his career or any income stream from it. 

At one time, country music derived from folk music. Before the music business transformed it (like practically all popular entertainment) into a money-making proposition more than art or personal expression, popular artists (even country) were able to express the sensibilities of the common man on economic issues such as pay, working conditions, and dignity on the job that all often proved substandard due to the choices of employers. Country music almost never expresses the plight of the working class and social pariahs because such would trouble the music business. Country performers may be slicker than they used to be, but topics have become 'safe' for the corporate bosses in the music industry. Country music can be honest about such topics as family break-ups, failed love lives, and drunkenness and can be adapted to the meat-market of dating (largely, I assume for blue-collar workers), but there are topics seemingly off limits today -- like economic inequality, foreign policy,  inadequate education, poor medical care because profits come first, labor-management issues, gun violence, police brutality, and climate change. Such topics are streng verboten now in Corporate America. You can trust that anyone who challenges the corporate autocracy will be directed to change the lyrics from such a topic as gun control to something 'safer' as an expression.

I can hardly imagine a better medium for reaching America's white cultural proletariat than country music. I am not denying that it has some influence in some of our giant cities, but my idea of where country music is most popular is among blue-collar white people in rural America, heavily in the parts of America that still have forests and farms and where a man is the master of his castle even if such a 'castle' is a Victorian-era hovel too dilapidated to have any charm. These places are where people fall for gas-guzzling vehicles that give a sense of personal importance in contrast to some city slicker's Chevrolet Malibu or Honda Civic. (I am not knocking such bloated vehicles if one needs them for the requirements of a job. If one has such a vehicle as an expression of personal masculinity, then one has some problems).

Just try to figure where one's career goes if one tries to put some conscience into music as did Tennessee Ernie Ford in Sixteen Tons, or later what Johnny Cash got away with. Take This Job and Shove It? Possible at one time for Johnny Paycheck years ago, but we are now expected to be thankful to Corporate America that we have a job, any job, and the Corporate elite would love to free us from a minimum wave, the right to organize a union, not getting to impress the boss by putting in unpaid overtime for the sake of the only things that seems to matter in neo-liberal America -- profit and executive compensation. 

It was once possible to look to popular culture for access to memes that challenged the reality that rapacious plutocrats and executives seek to impose upon us. That is over. The material that does that is now simply old. Oldies but Goodies, maybe, and often better than the pap that the 'culture' industries wishes that we consume. I look at mass marketers of sound equipment, and what do those allow us to listen to to determine how good the stuff will sound? Contemporary country (which sounds the same no matter what one plays it back on) or rap, which simply isn't music.  It is an aside, but this is what I tested music systems with  a couple decades ago:





String instruments are the most critical instruments to make sound good on a sound system. If string instruments as in this work (two violins, a viola, and two cellos) come off well, so can just about anything else except for perhaps a pipe organ. (If you really want to hear what some great organ in Germany sounds like, then you need to take the trip to Germany and hear it. Aside from pipe organs for which the cost of replacement is incalculable, then just think of how expensive a Stradivarius is. Relatively small objects, they are the most expensive instruments that can travel in a cab or a truck. Subtlety of sound quality is essential to all stringed instruments of the symphony orchestra. 

This said, even classical music which has no overt meaning has largely disappeared from the marketplace. It takes too much time and often offers some catharsis. Who needs catharsis when the current ethos is that people must live on the edge because fear motivates them to do what they hate doing? 

..........

If America is such a happy country, then why do we get so few immigrants from the First World now? It may distress you as it does Donald Trump that we are getting most of our immigrants from rotten places due to their poverty and due to regimes that treat people badly? Go ahead, Classic X'er... you know the world; I am too decent to use it. Why would someone leave a country whence Trump would love to send us more immigrants (that is Norway) just to find lower real pay, less economic security, and a gun culture? If I were a Norwegian I might want to visit Yosemite, Yellowstone, the Grand Canyon, and maybe some great city... but by now I would pick Lisbon over San Francisco. That is not due to the lesser cost of travel, shorter air time, or accommodations. 

Trump is doing much to wreck America. Make America Great Again? One can read into that whatever one wants. I'll pass on blood-alley roads between big cities, polio, worthless patent medicines, McCarthyism, 70-hour workweeks and 40-year lifespans for industrial workers instead of the opposite. Jim Crow? The KKK? Need I be black to see something terribly wrong with those?  Maybe people look back in time and see what a $1000 investment in Apple Computer would now make them, or getting fantastically rich by owning some Texas rangeland under which bubbles copious crude oil... 

Oh by the way, here is my mental disorder:

If you know that you have it and handle it right you can be a very productive member of society.

One good thing about Asperger's is that one has no tendency toward addictive behavior. The problems include, though:

1. Your love life will be messed up.
2. You might have arcane interests that others rarely care about.
3. Because your expressions don't match your words, you create the impression of a liar.
4. You must act as if on stage just to avoid seeming weird. 
5. Anxiety follows you everywhere.
6. Ho9wever much people say that the like people who think outside of the box, you put people off doing so.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-29-2020, 12:23 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Why do you tend to forget that you still live in an American country and forget that Americans have the Constitutional right to defend themselves and their country? Dude, we won't be anarchists, we'll be directly engaging with anarchists and waging war with anarchists and when we're done with them, we'll be coming for you and whoever is left as far as your politicians/government officials and rich people.

It seems worth while to visit Portland again.  The Proud Boys were attempting to instigate violence, heading into a peaceful protest, intending to use paint ball guns, but carrying real weapons.  This from the weapons carried was obviously premeditated.  They managed to find an Antifa person, not looking to instigate, looking to defend against instigators, to respond with lethal force to anything that looked like a lethal threat.  A knife turned the trick, and down one instigator.  The Antifa guy didn’t hang around and talk to the responding police, and as a result fell victim to a order to ‘get him’ by Trump.  It was an outside judicial process killing, with no real use of force to justify it.

Lessons learned?  There are jerks ready to instigate and escalate on both sides?  If you want to play these violent games, they could at any point turn deadly.  I think you are quite correct to stay well short of the instigating line.  The use of fireworks or paint ball guns which are not quite lethal to tempt the other side to escalate is part of the game.

The result?  The latest reporting from Portland has the Proud Boys drinking beer at the park, with Antifa in another park three miles away.  Neither side is quite so willing to push now that they have seen the lethal result.  Even the US Marshalls seem to be dodging press coverage of the improper use of force.

I am not seeing the anarchy you seem to like talking about.  I am seeing instigation by the red, and a right to self defend by Antifa.  In ‘we’ll be coming for you” I am hearing a chicken clucking.

[pbrower2a]

(09-29-2020, 05:14 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 12:23 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Why do you tend to forget that you still live in an American country and forget that Americans have the Constitutional right to defend themselves and their country? Dude, we won't be anarchists, we'll be directly engaging with anarchists and waging war with anarchists and when we're done with them, we'll be coming for you and whoever is left as far as your politicians/government officials and rich people.

It seems worth while to visit Portland again.  The Proud Boys were attempting to instigate violence, heading into a peaceful protest, intending to use paint ball guns, but carrying real weapons.  This from the weapons carried was obviously premeditated.  They managed to find an Antifa person, not looking to instigate, looking to defend against instigators, to respond with lethal force to anything that looked like a lethal threat.  A knife turned the trick, and down one instigator.  The Antifa guy didn’t hang around and talk to the responding police, and as a result fell victim to a order to ‘get him’ by Trump.  It was an outside judicial process killing, with no real use of force to justify it.

Taking firearms to a lawful protest is not free speech. Firearms on display are intimidation, which does not lie within the bounds of freedom of expression. Our system is made for non-violent discussion and not for threats of bodily harm. To be sure there are limits on speech. Most obviously one has no duty to be a receptive audience to something odious, whether such be a stream of filthy language or an extremist harangue. For good reason we do not have loudspeakers blaring the official statements of the government except in an emergency (such as "Evacuate now!" as a hurricane or tsunami approaches). 

Quote:Lessons learned?  There are jerks ready to instigate and escalate on both sides?  If you want to play these violent games, they could at any point turn deadly.  I think you are quite correct to stay well short of the instigating line.  The use of fireworks or paint ball guns which are not quite lethal to tempt the other side to escalate is part of the game.

Some people did not learn their civics lessons in school and figured how they wanted the world to be. They believe that democracy means that the majority or that people like they who act in a delusion of righteousness can squelch the expressions that contradict their beliefs. It's easy enough to find examples of people who have so acted in the past. That some semblance of democratic process operates is not enough. Lynch mobs reliably operate on the principle that the majority at the time and place make the decision and carry out that decision swiftly and promptly. 

Classic X'er may entertain violent thoughts on occasion and those slip through on occasion. Thoughts are not actions in themselves. Most of us have some control of our deeds and know enough to not turn our most disgusting thoughts into objectionable deeds. One cannot stop a thought that robbing a liquor store would be easy, but one can and must refrain from doing so.  

Quote:The result?  The latest reporting from Portland has the Proud Boys drinking beer at the park, with Antifa in another park three miles away.  Neither side is quite so willing to push now that they have seen the lethal result.  Even the US Marshalls seem to be dodging press coverage of the improper use of force.

Public officials are ordinarily expected to remain mute about something under investigation.

Quote:I am not seeing the anarchy you seem to like talking about.  I am seeing instigation by the red, and a right to self defend by Antifa.  In ‘we’ll be coming for you” I am hearing a chicken clucking.

However valid the justification and acceptable the result, self-defense is often as lethal and violent as the deed that one defends against. Flight is often the best solution, but we are still animals. We may not have the right to defend a loaf of bread with lethal force, but all bets are off if something poses a threat to us or our loved ones -- just as if we were mother bears protecting her cubs.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-29-2020, 08:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Taking firearms to a lawful protest is not free speech. Firearms on display are intimidation, which does not lie within the bounds of freedom of expression. Our system is made for non-violent discussion and not for threats of bodily harm.

There is an old precedent that caring an arm is a right, can not be held against one. On the other hand, brandishing a weapon in such a way to make a threat seems to go over the line. Not sure I have it quite right.

[David Horn]

(09-29-2020, 12:23 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-27-2020, 08:19 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-26-2020, 01:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-26-2020, 10:12 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you're not seeing, paying as much attention or  becoming more aware of the blue violence that the rest of the country has been seeing and watching  on a regular basis for months these days. The same stupid shit, night after night, month after month. I assume you are able to associate what they're doing with tribal thinking but you seem to be unaware that what you're doing and saying which is similar what they're thinking/believing and using as an excuse or justification   of what they're doing and attracting the interest of a large portion of the country that still believes in the age old American concept of might makes right and the idea of using American  force to establish order and make things right again for most of the country. You're still a member of the blue tribe right. You're a Weird member but you're still a loyal member of the blue tribe right. Eric can let go of the blue tribe and pledge allegiance to the green tribe because Eric has dual citizenship.

Rather than reply directly, I'll let you review the video response of someone who should be a member of your clan ... or maybe not.  The 6 minute video explains the 3minute song at the end of his most recent album, but it deserves attention on its own merit.  In short, it's a WTF to his own people*.

* The reference to the Battle of Blair Mountain deserves a look too ... a good long look.

Well, I think you should have picked a better person to use as an example myself. I mean, a recovering addict who started out by excluding himself from preaching prior to preaching tells me he ain't quite thinking straight and tells me the position he is in right (pretty much broke with nothing of value to show for it) now as far as his life and career. And what he has to do and say in order to restart his life and rekindle a career and be given a chance to release an album that's guaranteed not to flop these days.

FWIW, he's a major star in root music, and doesn't need validation by you, me or anyone else.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I've heard the NFL has lost 25% of it's viewership. I don't mix business with politics myself. I prefer doing business with whole markets myself.  So, how many fisherman with kids in the boat are shot by game wardens? How many game wardens are overly concerned about being shot or stabbed by a fishermen or a hunter for that matter these days? How many big city cops would prefer to be a game warden or a suburban cop or a private sector cop these days?

He was making the point that the same things can happen to anyone given the right circumstances. He picked the examples he did to bring that home to his mostly working class Appalachian audience.

Classic-Xer Wrote:Personally speaking, I don't care if you and the Democrats go down with Black Lives Matter. You and them don't seem to care either at this point. So, I'd say both side content with nature running it coarse and nature to determining the winner. So, when we're done with them and the rich supporting them and its time to mop and let other hunt people like you down, do  you see yourself still being  around/alive or not? I figure the bulk of the Left Wing politicians are going to jump shit or opt to lay on their swords. Does that sound about right to you?

Let's assume that Trump and the GOP lose big this election (ignore the possibility that Trump may try to steal it anyway). How does the anger he's generated in his followers get released?  The odds say that result is more likely than not and by a substantial margin. Are you and yours ready to start an anarchist revolution?

If he doesn't/didn't need validation then why did go against his own judgement and contradict himself?  I think he did it as a means to save face with his kin/ fans, protect the future of his musical career and please his corporate masters myself but you're free to think/ feel otherwise. So, why do you keep underestimating the power and influence of the American Right and continue to believe inaccurate polls and continue to believe the Left Wing media and continue to believe minorities are all the same and women are all the same and gays are all the same and and Democratic people are all the same and so forth? Why do you tend to forget that you still live in an American country and forget that Americans have the Constitutional right to defend themselves and their country? Dude, we won't be anarchists, we'll be directly engaging with anarchists and waging war with anarchists and when we're done with them, we'll be coming for you and whoever is left as far as your politicians/government officials and rich people.  It's a bummer that PB has a mental disorder that hampers his natural ability to see and think straight these days.

He was pretty straight forward: bitching about BLM doing things done for the same reason by their ancestors (and not that long ago), is the height of hypocrisy. If the Appalachian coal miners were right to take on their oppressors for abuse, then BLM is right too.  He even cited the Battle of Blair Mountain as a prime example.

[David Horn]

(09-29-2020, 09:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 08:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Taking firearms to a lawful protest is not free speech. Firearms on display are intimidation, which does not lie within the bounds of freedom of expression. Our system is made for non-violent discussion and not for threats of bodily harm.

There is an old precedent that caring an arm is a right, can not be held against one.  On the other hand, brandishing a weapon in such a way to make a threat seems to go over the line.  Not sure I have it quite right.

With Hang-'em-high Amy coming to the court, gun rights might become total.  Then the bloodshed will begin in earnest.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-29-2020, 11:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: With Hang-'em-high Amy coming to the court, gun rights might become total.  Then the bloodshed will begin in earnest.

Is there part of 'shall not be infringed' that you don't get? I don't know that anyone is arguing about felons and the insane.

[David Horn]

(09-29-2020, 12:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 11:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: With Hang-'em-high Amy coming to the court, gun rights might become total.  Then the bloodshed will begin in earnest.

Is there part of 'shall not be infringed' that you don't get?  I don't know that anyone is arguing about felons and the insane.

You seem to ignore the part about the militia that was the justification for the thing in the first place.  And let's get real.  We had a guy not far from here who decided to flee a sheriff's deputy, was finally caught and arrested (after an armed standoff).  His car's trunk held enough firepower for an infantry squad, with even more at his residence.  He chose to live.  Others may choose otherwise.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-30-2020, 03:00 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 12:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 11:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: With Hang-'em-high Amy coming to the court, gun rights might become total.  Then the bloodshed will begin in earnest.

Is there part of 'shall not be infringed' that you don't get?  I don't know that anyone is arguing about felons and the insane.

You seem to ignore the part about the militia that was the justification for the thing in the first place.  And let's get real.  We had a guy not far from here who decided to flee a sheriff's deputy, was finally caught and arrested (after an armed standoff).  His car's trunk held enough firepower for an infantry squad, with even more at his residence.  He chose to live.  Others may choose otherwise.

Yes.  At times, they put in a justification in front of the implementation.  For example, as legislators have to have free speech, the people shall have free speech.  Rights are by their nature given to the People, not to agencies of the government.  Thus, you pay attention to the implementation phrase rather than the justification phrase.  That is the way it is interpreted in every other case of a right worded with a justification phrase.  The exception was when the Jim Crow Supreme Court was twisting the law to remove rights from the blacks.

But no, rather than an amendment the liberals prefer to legislate from the bench.

We'll see what happens in the never again phase at the end of this crisis.  Something has to be done, but it should not be more legislation from the bench.

[pbrower2a]

(09-29-2020, 12:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 11:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: With Hang-'em-high Amy coming to the court, gun rights might become total.  Then the bloodshed will begin in earnest.

Is there part of 'shall not be infringed' that you don't get?  I don't know that anyone is arguing about felons and the insane.

I'd want Brad Parscale to lose his guns.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-30-2020, 07:53 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 12:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 11:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: With Hang-'em-high Amy coming to the court, gun rights might become total.  Then the bloodshed will begin in earnest.

Is there part of 'shall not be infringed' that you don't get?  I don't know that anyone is arguing about felons and the insane.

I'd want Brad Parscale to lose his guns.

Do you have a due process way to prove him a felon or insane?  He's a Trump enabler.  There might be a way to do either.  But, still, if you don't have a way to establish either in court, he has rights which should not be removed.  Blue folks sometimes think their whims have force of law.  Red folks have ways to make their whims have force of law.  Neither is desirable.

Mind you, it is getting to the point where you might start a class action suit to declare all Trump supporters insane, but that isn't the American way either.

[David Horn]

(09-30-2020, 07:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-30-2020, 03:00 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 12:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 11:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: With Hang-'em-high Amy coming to the court, gun rights might become total.  Then the bloodshed will begin in earnest.

Is there part of 'shall not be infringed' that you don't get?  I don't know that anyone is arguing about felons and the insane.

You seem to ignore the part about the militia that was the justification for the thing in the first place.  And let's get real.  We had a guy not far from here who decided to flee a sheriff's deputy, was finally caught and arrested (after an armed standoff).  His car's trunk held enough firepower for an infantry squad, with even more at his residence.  He chose to live.  Others may choose otherwise.

Yes.  At times, they put in a justification in front of the implementation.  For example, as legislators have to have free speech, the people shall have free speech.  Rights are by their nature given to the People, not to agencies of the government.  Thus, you pay attention to the implementation phrase rather than the justification phrase.  That is the way it is interpreted in every other case of a right worded with a justification phrase.  The exception was when the Jim Crow Supreme Court was twisting the law to remove rights from the blacks.

But no, rather than an amendment the liberals prefer to legislate from the bench.

We'll see what happens in the never again phase at the end of this crisis.  Something has to be done, but it should not be more legislation from the bench.

Read the rest of the Bill of Rights, and find a case where a justification was ignored in law -- assuming one even exists.  These 10 amendments were written as simple declarative sentences by people who didn't want them misconstrued, but the 2nd was anyway.  At some point, that will be recognized and resolved.