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We're WEIRD. Get over it.
#41
(09-25-2020, 11:36 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(09-22-2020, 12:37 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(09-22-2020, 12:02 AM)sbarrera Wrote: Bob, you seem to be saying that W.E.I.R.D. = blue zone. So what happens if the red zone takes over in 2021? Is that the end of the West?

As usual, things will get worse until it is decided to do something about it.  Trump being reelected is pretty much guaranteed to make things worse.  As Churchill allegedly said, America will eventually do the right thing, once they have tried everything else.  He did not mention doing a wrong thing twice.

I don't think a population to try to keep an unravelling going, to keep operating on the values of selfishness once the problems have surfaced.  I suspect the Democrats will triumph.  You are correct to worry, though.

The Hard Right has no intellectual appeal, whether it is the neo-Nazis or KKK types who drip with genocidal talk or Donald Trump's anti-intellectual followers. Marxism-Leninism still had some claim (however specious) to have an innovative program for restructuring the social order of all capitalist countries. That is over. Marxism-Leninism ossified quickly into an excuse for a bureaucratic elite, the nomenklatura, as oppressive and rapacious as aristocratic landowners People are coming to realize that concentration of power is itself inimical to democracy and  that the concentration of power is itself a source of inequality for its own sake. It may be that a nation of shopkeepers and yeoman farmers can better achieve and protect freedom than what we have now. 
 
The problem is this time around there were enough racists that white superiority was considered more important than workers getting their share of the pie.  This is not quite the same as the last crisis, where dictators attempted by military force to sieze a larger piece of the pie, with genocide or mass migrations as acceptable tools.

I am not disagreeing that institutional racism is a problem either way, but we deserved the bad government that resulted.  At the time it was the will of the people.  Trump is just an extreme example of that sort of thinking.  It takes an extremely bad abuse to trigger a crisis response.

(09-25-2020, 11:36 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The Corporate Right has its idea of freedom -- freedom to monopolize, to drive small-scale business out of business through buy-outs or ruin, to buy into the political process (government effectively obliged to serve wealth and bureaucratic power instead of the People), and to slough off responsibilities while imposing quasi-feudal duties upon the common man. Such at its worst is high-tech feudalism most closely imitated in Nazi Germany. Even without the genocide and aggressive warfare, Nazi Germany was a worker's Hell.

Agreed.
About every four score and seven years, a new birth of freedom...
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#42
(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you're not seeing, paying as much attention or  becoming more aware of the blue violence that the rest of the country has been seeing and watching  on a regular basis for months these days. The same stupid shit, night after night, month after month. I assume you are able to associate what they're doing with tribal thinking but you seem to be unaware that what you're doing and saying which is similar what they're thinking/believing and using as an excuse or justification   of what they're doing and attracting the interest of a large portion of the country that still believes in the age old American concept of might makes right and the idea of using American  force to establish order and make things right again for most of the country. You're still a member of the blue tribe right. You're a Weird member but you're still a loyal member of the blue tribe right. Eric can let go of the blue tribe and pledge allegiance to the green tribe because Eric has dual citizenship.

Rather than reply directly, I'll let you review the video response of someone who should be a member of your clan ... or maybe not.  The 6 minute video explains the 3minute song at the end of his most recent album, but it deserves attention on its own merit.  In short, it's a WTF to his own people*.

* The reference to the Battle of Blair Mountain deserves a look too ... a good long look.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#43
(Yesterday, 10:12 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you're not seeing, paying as much attention or  becoming more aware of the blue violence that the rest of the country has been seeing and watching  on a regular basis for months these days. The same stupid shit, night after night, month after month. I assume you are able to associate what they're doing with tribal thinking but you seem to be unaware that what you're doing and saying which is similar what they're thinking/believing and using as an excuse or justification   of what they're doing and attracting the interest of a large portion of the country that still believes in the age old American concept of might makes right and the idea of using American  force to establish order and make things right again for most of the country. You're still a member of the blue tribe right. You're a Weird member but you're still a loyal member of the blue tribe right. Eric can let go of the blue tribe and pledge allegiance to the green tribe because Eric has dual citizenship.

Rather than reply directly, I'll let you review the video response of someone who should be a member of your clan ... or maybe not.  The 6 minute video explains the 3minute song at the end of his most recent album, but it deserves attention on its own merit.  In short, it's a WTF to his own people*.

* The reference to the Battle of Blair Mountain deserves a look too ... a good long look.
Well, I think you should have picked a better person to use as an example myself. I mean, a recovering addict who started out by excluding himself from preaching prior to preaching tells me he ain't quite thinking straight and tells me the position he is in right (pretty much broke with nothing of value to show for it) now as far as his life and career. And what he has to do and say in order to restart his life and rekindle a career and be given a chance to release an album that's guaranteed not to flop these days.

I've heard the NFL has lost 25% of it's viewership. I don't mix business with politics myself. I prefer doing business with whole markets myself. So, how many fisherman with kids in the boat are shot by game wardens? How many game wardens are overly concerned about being shot or stabbed by a fishermen or a hunter for that matter these days? How many big city cops would prefer to be a game warden or a suburban cop or a private sector cop these days?

Personally speaking, I don't care if you and the Democrats go down with Black Lives Matter. You and them don't seem to care either at this point. So, I'd say both side content with nature running it coarse and nature to determining the winner. So, when we're done with them and the rich supporting them and its time to mop and let other hunt people like you down, do you see yourself still being around/alive or not? I figure the bulk of the Left Wing politicians are going to jump shit or opt to lay on their swords. Does that sound about right to you?
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#44
Let's not forget: one need not be a person of color to be oppressed. Appalachia is poor and oppressed, and that has nothing to do with race. Maybe the Democrats who once got easy re-elections by standing with miners failed to invest in the future. Republicans have taken over by default, and they simply defer to the rapacious plutocrats of America.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#45
(Yesterday, 01:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personally speaking, I don't care if you and the Democrats go down with Black Lives Matter. You and them don't seem to care either at this point. So, I'd say both side content with nature running it coarse and nature to determining the winner. So, when we're done with them and the rich supporting them and its time to mop and let other hunt people like you down, do  you see yourself still being  around/alive or not? I figure the bulk of the Left Wing politicians are going to jump shit or opt to lay on their swords. Does that sound about right to you?

I do care if the racist violent cops commit violence. I do care when Trump tries to call in the military, though they seem to have drawn the lie. I care when Trump ties to instigate violence, sending various unlabeled secret police in in spite of the Constitution not giving him police powers. I care when red militias are not defending, but are instigating violence far from their home areas.

Red violence is the problem right now.
About every four score and seven years, a new birth of freedom...
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#46
(Yesterday, 01:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(Yesterday, 10:12 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you're not seeing, paying as much attention or  becoming more aware of the blue violence that the rest of the country has been seeing and watching  on a regular basis for months these days. The same stupid shit, night after night, month after month. I assume you are able to associate what they're doing with tribal thinking but you seem to be unaware that what you're doing and saying which is similar what they're thinking/believing and using as an excuse or justification   of what they're doing and attracting the interest of a large portion of the country that still believes in the age old American concept of might makes right and the idea of using American  force to establish order and make things right again for most of the country. You're still a member of the blue tribe right. You're a Weird member but you're still a loyal member of the blue tribe right. Eric can let go of the blue tribe and pledge allegiance to the green tribe because Eric has dual citizenship.

Rather than reply directly, I'll let you review the video response of someone who should be a member of your clan ... or maybe not.  The 6 minute video explains the 3minute song at the end of his most recent album, but it deserves attention on its own merit.  In short, it's a WTF to his own people*.

* The reference to the Battle of Blair Mountain deserves a look too ... a good long look.

Well, I think you should have picked a better person to use as an example myself. I mean, a recovering addict who started out by excluding himself from preaching prior to preaching tells me he ain't quite thinking straight and tells me the position he is in right (pretty much broke with nothing of value to show for it) now as far as his life and career. And what he has to do and say in order to restart his life and rekindle a career and be given a chance to release an album that's guaranteed not to flop these days.

FWIW, he's a major star in root music, and doesn't need validation by you, me or anyone else.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I've heard the NFL has lost 25% of it's viewership. I don't mix business with politics myself. I prefer doing business with whole markets myself.  So, how many fisherman with kids in the boat are shot by game wardens? How many game wardens are overly concerned about being shot or stabbed by a fishermen or a hunter for that matter these days? How many big city cops would prefer to be a game warden or a suburban cop or a private sector cop these days?

He was making the point that the same things can happen to anyone given the right circumstances. He picked the examples he did to bring that home to his mostly working class Appalachian audience.

Classic-Xer Wrote:Personally speaking, I don't care if you and the Democrats go down with Black Lives Matter. You and them don't seem to care either at this point. So, I'd say both side content with nature running it coarse and nature to determining the winner. So, when we're done with them and the rich supporting them and its time to mop and let other hunt people like you down, do  you see yourself still being  around/alive or not? I figure the bulk of the Left Wing politicians are going to jump shit or opt to lay on their swords. Does that sound about right to you?

Let's assume that Trump and the GOP lose big this election (ignore the possibility that Trump may try to steal it anyway). How does the anger he's generated in his followers get released? The odds say that result is more likely than not and by a substantial margin. Are you and yours ready to start an anarchist revolution?
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#47
(Yesterday, 01:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(Yesterday, 10:12 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you're not seeing, paying as much attention or  becoming more aware of the blue violence that the rest of the country has been seeing and watching  on a regular basis for months these days. The same stupid shit, night after night, month after month. I assume you are able to associate what they're doing with tribal thinking but you seem to be unaware that what you're doing and saying which is similar what they're thinking/believing and using as an excuse or justification   of what they're doing and attracting the interest of a large portion of the country that still believes in the age old American concept of might makes right and the idea of using American  force to establish order and make things right again for most of the country. You're still a member of the blue tribe right. You're a Weird member but you're still a loyal member of the blue tribe right. Eric can let go of the blue tribe and pledge allegiance to the green tribe because Eric has dual citizenship.

Rather than reply directly, I'll let you review the video response of someone who should be a member of your clan ... or maybe not.  The 6 minute video explains the 3minute song at the end of his most recent album, but it deserves attention on its own merit.  In short, it's a WTF to his own people*.

* The reference to the Battle of Blair Mountain deserves a look too ... a good long look.

Well, I think you should have picked a better person to use as an example myself. I mean, a recovering addict who started out by excluding himself from preaching prior to preaching tells me he ain't quite thinking straight and tells me the position he is in right (pretty much broke with nothing of value to show for it) now as far as his life and career. And what he has to do and say in order to restart his life and rekindle a career and be given a chance to release an album that's guaranteed not to flop these days.

It is easy to think of addiction as a moral failure. Everybody faces some slip-up, and nobody decides to become an addict. Drugs and booze take over. Addiction is real and it is difficult to give up. Drugs and alcohol can become physical dependency, and doing without the chemical that keeps one from experiencing life at its most painful is physically difficult. 

Entertainers are particularly prone to addiction. Once successful they have crazy money, and they are often not worldly enough to recognize the stupidity of "trying this" when someone tells them that cocaine is the most wonderful thing ever made. I don't know for myself, but from what I have seen in print media and heard on broadcasting is that it gives a pointless high that makes everything else seem stale by contrast. Many entertainment careers go into rapid decline (film stars and musicians) when the stars find the 'nose candy'.    


Quote:I've heard the NFL has lost 25% of it's viewership. I don't mix business with politics myself. I prefer doing business with whole markets myself.  So, how many fisherman with kids in the boat are shot by game wardens? How many game wardens are overly concerned about being shot or stabbed by a fishermen or a hunter for that matter these days? How many big city cops would prefer to be a game warden or a suburban cop or a private sector cop these days?

State troopers are paid well in Michigan -- well enough that the job is quite attractive to people with college degrees. They can often see results in something like reductions in vehicle crashes and road fatalities as they nab speeders and drunk drivers. They know better than non-cops how to deal with some dangerous people. Drug activity scares them because drug users are unpredictable and drug dealers have a big stake in not being caught. Wildlife enforcers and park rangers are law enforcement... and, yes, people are known to take their bad habits into the wilderness. The wilderness is a good area in which to dispose of a troublesome body, as Ted Bundy showed. Raccoons. let alone bears, coyotes, and cougars, can more efficiently dispose of the corpus delicti whose deceased possessor one raped and murdered. 

As for suburbia being a police paradise... Suburbia is becoming increasingly urban in character. Just think of Greater Los Angeles. Technically, most cities in the armpit of Indiana are suburbs... some suburbs to the south of the Borman Expressway (I-80/94) expressway aren't bad places, but the old industrial suburbs of Chicago are awful... they were doing well when the American steel industry was booming, but that is over.

Private-sector law-enforcement? That is mostly the low end of security guards who wear a uniform and carry a badge. They are most likely to be deputized to enforce laws against shoplifting in a store. They need little training, and such shows in their pay. The exceptions are moonlighting cops who work in a liquor store as a deterrent to armed robberies.    

Quote:Personally speaking, I don't care if you and the Democrats go down with Black Lives Matter. You and them don't seem to care either at this point. So, I'd say both side content with nature running it course and nature to determining the winner. So, when we're done with them and the rich supporting them and its time to mop and let other hunt people like you down, do  you see yourself still being  around/alive or not? I figure the bulk of the Left Wing politicians are going to jump shit or opt to lay on their swords. Does that sound about right to you?

Note well that Black Lives Matter has everything to do with police reform and nothing with reorganization of the economic system. I want the cops to do their jobs and do them well, which means that they do not use excessive force. Their appointed duty in an arrest is to bring an alleged offender back alive to formal detention where that person comes under the scrutiny of the legal system. 

In view of bullet-proof vests, one of the big perils of police work (a crook trying to shoot it out with the police) has abated greatly. Police are now more likely to die in vehicle crashes than in confrontations with criminals. Pull a gun on a cop and you will die. At one time Death Rows were full of cop-killers; today the would-be cop killers are typically spared the experience of Death Row in some states because the police are more likely to kill them. 

We are in need of major reforms of urban police when one finds that offenders who pose no threat of death or grave bodily harm to a police officer or the general public in a confrontation who get killed in encounters with the police are disproportionately black.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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