The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Classic-Xer]

(09-01-2021, 05:18 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I tried to be different from David Horn in explaining how wrong you are and especially how wrong Trump is. Trump shows all of the warning signs of fascism. He may not be the one to achieve it; he is simply too erratic, lazy, and witless to achieve it. If Classic X'er is a genuine fascist (whether he knows it or not) then the disappearance of his idol Trump from public life will not lead him from fascism. He will find another racist demagogue who tells him what he wants to hear. 

(If some con artist tells me that I am an unusually astute investor who can appreciate a truly-special investment, then I am running away. I know that I am not Warren Buffett, and I would rather follow Warren Buffett than someone who tries to butter me up into buying some shady investment. That is, if I had the money).  

We aren't out of the woods. At least the "lions and tigers and bears" usually try to leave us alone. Statistically you are in far more danger from a rabid animal than from "lions and tigers and bears". If Toto does not have his rabies shot he is even more dangerous than "lions and tigers and bears" in the woods... or if Baum had put the yellow brick road through a swamp, alligators in said swamp.  

Fascism does not need the personality of Donald Trump. It does need deviousness and demagoguery. It needs the Big Lie, the effort to harmonize logical contradictions between class interests, between tradition and progress, between superstition and science, and the pompous self-image of the demagogue against his moral emptiness. There will be another after Trump is gone. Maybe someone more sophisticated. On the other hand, if we get genuine human solidarity, fascism will become a sick joke much like BUF figures from the 1930's in Monty Python sketches.

All you did was provide a list of warning signs associated with fascism. To be honest, I don't really care if you end up being killed by fascists or communists at this point. I'm on the American side remember. How long has Trump been out of office? You'd think he was still in office by the way that you guys are still  obsessing over him. You better start paying more attention to Biden since your fate is directly tied to him and the Democratic party.

[pbrower2a]

(09-01-2021, 07:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-01-2021, 05:18 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Fascism does not need the personality of Donald Trump. It does need deviousness and demagoguery. It needs the Big Lie, the effort to harmonize logical contradictions between class interests, between tradition and progress, between superstition and science, and the pompous self-image of the demagogue against his moral emptiness. There will be another after Trump is gone. Maybe someone more sophisticated. On the other hand, if we get genuine human solidarity, fascism will become a sick joke much like BUF figures from the 1930's in Monty Python sketches.

I would estimate that you are correct. Many fascist dictatorships around the world past and present are not led by a talented story-teller and bullshit artist like Trump. Originally, it depended on demagogues with real talent: Mussolini and Hitler. And Trump is a talented one too. But Pinochet was not,

Pinochet was brute force, pure and simple, in achieving power in a coup and in suppressing all dissent with fear, torture, and murder. He needed no political talent because he murdered political life in Chile. He could never be elected in any somewhat-free election and he knew it... so he tolerated no electins and ruled by decree. Unlike Trump he was not an effective liar.  

Quote:or Franco or Salazar, or countless other thugs the USA has supported or opposed, like Putin, Assad, Lukashenko, Orban, etc.

...or supported and opposed! Like Satan Hussein!
 

Quote:George W Bush had a certain charismatic talent, hardly visible to those of us on the blue side, but almost magically-appealing to those on the red side. He was also leading us down the road to fascism, although we tend to forget about this in the shadow of their Party's next even-more overt attempt to lead us there.

George W. Bush was able to tell people on the Right what they wanted to hear, such as he is an ordinary guy not born to privilege (that is a huge lie, of course!) and that he shared their religious beliefs (ahem!) I first saw the "Fourteen Warning Signs of Fascism" connected to Dubya, but if they came in on little cat feet under Dubya they are on the not-so-little, but still-quiet feet of perhaps a caracal. Next stop: leopard, cougar, or jaguar.

Quote:Girls like Guilfoyle or Taylor Greene could work some magic too, or guys like Tom Cotton. Not to mention Ivanka Trump.

We still have a double-standard on female pols. They can be extremists and win in Congressional elections and even statewide elections (if the state is "safe" for one Party). If we can elect Barack Obama we can elect anyone similarly rational, honest, learned, conventional, and eloquent. This country has a marked bias over time for chilly rationalists. Crazy ladies like Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin? Absolutely not. We're not going to elect any "Uncle Toms", either.  

Feminism and fascism are completely incompatible even if the late "Rash Libel" could coin the word "feminazi". It is worth remembering that no fascist cause has ever had a female leader. Note well that no high-ranking figure of the German or Japanese government executed as a war criminal (with German women it was only brutal guards who never made rank). On the card deck of 52 wanted Iraqi officials handed out to American soldiers, only one person in the deck was a woman, and she was allegedly an expert of germ warfare. How many female Grand Lizards or Infernal Dragons have you heard of? Fascism is typically a Bad Boys' club. To be sure, fascist causes may have their female auxiliaries, but in general women are expected to know their palace in a fascist order -- doing the housework and giving birth to plentiful babies.

Unlike liberalism and Marxism-Leninism, fascism is blatantly male-chauvinist. Some time in the early 1980's, a political figure in the unaligned world was shocked to find that the USA and the Soviet Union voted alike on women's rights. Mao Zedong, hardly an exemplar of human rights, was cited as saying "Women hold up half the sky".

Maybe under some circumstances we might elect someone like Margaret Thatcher as President... Thatcher is decidedly on the conservative and even reactionary side, but definitely not a fascist. Angela Merkel? Of course. But know well: she is about as chilly a rationalist as there is. 

Quote:Not nearly on the level of the founders of fascism that launched history's greatest war, but good enough for Mother America. I suspect another right-wing demagogue, someone more sophisticated, would have to have a high horoscope score. Cotton fills that bill, as do MTG and some others available today. You can always survey the list: https://philosopherswheel.com/presidenti...ScoredWhat

Tom Cotton is scary. If he can be something other than a regional candidate, then I could see him exploiting economic or international distress to get the needed edge. He is not objectionable so far except for ideology... but he might be the perfect vehicle for American fascism. He reminds me of characters leading the vile Norsefire regime in V for Vendetta , which has a fascistic Britain in which the regime offers faith as a substitute for happiness and rationality. That sounds much like the American Religious Right. If America has not graduated away from the near 50-50 split between authoritarians and liberals, then some rough times could cause many independent voters to think that he is onto something --- much like the case in 2016 on behalf of Trump.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-01-2021, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Tom Cotton is scary. If he can be something other than a regional candidate, then I could see him exploiting economic or international distress to get the needed edge. He is not objectionable so far except for ideology... but he might be the perfect vehicle for American fascism. He reminds me of characters leading the vile Norsefire regime in V for Vendetta , which has a fascistic Britain in which the regime offers faith as a substitute for happiness and rationality. That sounds much like the American Religious Right. If America has not graduated away from the near 50-50 split between authoritarians and liberals, then some rough times could cause many independent voters to think that he is onto something --- much like the case in 2016 on behalf of Trump.

 PB, which group of authoritarians is flexing its muscles and using its power and authority right now. It's not us, we are waiting for moral/legal justification to begin asserting our power and authority right now. Who is imposing social restrictions right now? Who using its power and authority to address social inequity now? Who is banning who right now? Who is targeting who right now? Who is trying to threaten and intimidate who right now? Me, I'm letting you know what's going to happen to a group of partisan twits when the gloves come off. I figure that I'm morally obligated to inform you and the others in advance. 

Bob and Eric are right, we are authoritarians too. The difference, we don't have an interest in ruling and controlling the entire country. We have an interest in keeping a portion of the country free (American). I'd say the chances of Americans killing Democrats in another war over freedom is very likely right now. Me, I don't live in a heavy blue area. I'm not dumb enough to live in an governed by a bunch of left wing lunatics/idiots. I live in a purple area where a lot of people have the means to protect themselves, their property and the community if necessary. I live in an area where competence matters and incompetence is frowned upon and replaced.

[Eric the Green]

(09-02-2021, 12:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-01-2021, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Tom Cotton is scary. If he can be something other than a regional candidate, then I could see him exploiting economic or international distress to get the needed edge. He is not objectionable so far except for ideology... but he might be the perfect vehicle for American fascism. He reminds me of characters leading the vile Norsefire regime in V for Vendetta , which has a fascistic Britain in which the regime offers faith as a substitute for happiness and rationality. That sounds much like the American Religious Right. If America has not graduated away from the near 50-50 split between authoritarians and liberals, then some rough times could cause many independent voters to think that he is onto something --- much like the case in 2016 on behalf of Trump.

 PB, which group of authoritarians is flexing its muscles and using its power and authority right now. It's not us, we are waiting for moral/legal justification to begin asserting our power and authority right now. Who is imposing social restrictions right now? Who using its power and authority to address social inequity now? Who is banning who right now? Who is targeting who right now? Who is trying to threaten and intimidate who right now? Me, I'm letting you know what's going to happen to a group of partisan twits when the gloves come off. I figure that I'm morally obligated to inform you and the others  in advance. 

Bob and Eric are right, we are authoritarians too. The difference, we don't have an interest in ruling and controlling the entire country. We have an interest in keeping a portion of the country free (American). I'd say the chances of Americans killing Democrats in another war over freedom is very likely right now. Me, I don't live in a heavy blue area. I'm not dumb enough to live in an governed by a bunch of left wing lunatics/idiots. I live in a purple area where a lot of people have the means to protect themselves, their property and the community if necessary. I live in an area where competence matters and incompetence is frowned upon and replaced.

Republicans are taking voting rights away right now. They are oppressing women right now. They are imposing climate breakdown upon us right now. They are not getting vaccinated right now, thus imposing covid upon us. I sure hope we can use our authority to address social inequity, but that depends on whether all Democrats are real Democrats and not Republican wolves in sheep's clothing. And I sure hope we can take as many guns away from you guys as we can. 

Who wins the battle will probably depend on who has the state apparatus. Even then, Trump was unable to get the military to support his coup. He did manage to delay a response, so that an invasion of our capitol was allowed. If Kamala is nominated, then you will have your chance. Succession by blue states will be all but guaranteed then, if your side nominates someone you like. What will the battle look like then? Will you just tell us goodbye and good luck, or will you try to impose your rule and control over the entire country and keep us under your authority? If the reverse happens, and the Democrats nominate a candidate with a better horoscope score than your Party does, and you guys decide to secede, there may not be a fight, and we might just say goodbye and good luck. It does look pretty good for your side if Biden can't get re-elected and hold it together past 2024. The best Democratic candidates now seem too shy to step up, while your side does have some good possibilities.

[David Horn]

(09-02-2021, 03:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Republicans are taking voting rights away right now. They are oppressing women right now. They are imposing climate breakdown upon us right now. They are not getting vaccinated right now, thus imposing covid upon us. I sure hope we can use our authority to address social inequity, but that depends on whether all Democrats are real Democrats and not Republican wolves in sheep's clothing. And I sure hope we can take as many guns away from you guys as we can. 

I just read a joint email from two ACLU luminaries. The ACLU has never shied away from tough calls - even ones in support of people and movments they hate. Guess what: they argue that vaccine mandates are a higher form of freedom than the actions foisted on us by the so-called freedom movement. Most freedoms, they argue, are limited by opposing higher-level freedoms like the right to life. Vaccines are safe and effective measures that promote the life and health of the community. By their reckoniing, the health and safety of the many dreastically outweighs the trivial desires of the few.

[pbrower2a]

(09-02-2021, 12:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-01-2021, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Tom Cotton is scary. If he can be something other than a regional candidate, then I could see him exploiting economic or international distress to get the needed edge. He is not objectionable so far except for ideology... but he might be the perfect vehicle for American fascism. He reminds me of characters leading the vile Norsefire regime in V for Vendetta , which has a fascistic Britain in which the regime offers faith as a substitute for happiness and rationality. That sounds much like the American Religious Right. If America has not graduated away from the near 50-50 split between authoritarians and liberals, then some rough times could cause many independent voters to think that he is onto something --- much like the case in 2016 on behalf of Trump.

PB, which group of authoritarians is flexing its muscles and using its power and authority right now. It's not us, we are waiting for moral/legal justification to begin asserting our  power and authority right now. Who is imposing social restrictions right now? Who using its power and authority to address social inequity now? Who is banning who right now? Who is targeting who right now? Who is trying to threaten and intimidate who right now? Me, I'm letting you know what's going to happen to a group of partisan twits when the gloves come off. I figure that I'm morally obligated to inform you and the others  in advance.

The sorts of people who believe that he who owns the gold makes the rules.  

Quote:Bob and Eric are right, we are authoritarians too. The difference, we don't have an interest in ruling and controlling the entire country. We have an interest in keeping a portion of the country free (American). I'd say the chances of Americans killing Democrats in another war over freedom is very likely right now. Me, I don't live in a heavy blue area. I'm not dumb enough to live in an governed by a bunch of left wing lunatics/idiots. I live in a purple area where a lot of people have the means to protect themselves, their property and the community if necessary. I live in an area where competence matters and incompetence is frowned upon and replaced.

By saying that you are a Democrat one says that one has as much claim to be an American as a Republican.  Murderous violence in the name of America is as absurd as fornication in the name of chastity. The means to protect oneself?



Welcome to the Sundarbans (the jungle in the Ganges delta infested with man-eating tigers) should you be a burglar, mugger, or rapist. A German shepherd can be a wonderful friend, but I wouldn't want one of them, let alone several of them at once, as an enemy. Pound for pound these fellows are stronger than tigers.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-02-2021, 03:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-02-2021, 12:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-01-2021, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Tom Cotton is scary. If he can be something other than a regional candidate, then I could see him exploiting economic or international distress to get the needed edge. He is not objectionable so far except for ideology... but he might be the perfect vehicle for American fascism. He reminds me of characters leading the vile Norsefire regime in V for Vendetta , which has a fascistic Britain in which the regime offers faith as a substitute for happiness and rationality. That sounds much like the American Religious Right. If America has not graduated away from the near 50-50 split between authoritarians and liberals, then some rough times could cause many independent voters to think that he is onto something --- much like the case in 2016 on behalf of Trump.

 PB, which group of authoritarians is flexing its muscles and using its power and authority right now. It's not us, we are waiting for moral/legal justification to begin asserting our power and authority right now. Who is imposing social restrictions right now? Who using its power and authority to address social inequity now? Who is banning who right now? Who is targeting who right now? Who is trying to threaten and intimidate who right now? Me, I'm letting you know what's going to happen to a group of partisan twits when the gloves come off. I figure that I'm morally obligated to inform you and the others  in advance. 

Bob and Eric are right, we are authoritarians too. The difference, we don't have an interest in ruling and controlling the entire country. We have an interest in keeping a portion of the country free (American). I'd say the chances of Americans killing Democrats in another war over freedom is very likely right now. Me, I don't live in a heavy blue area. I'm not dumb enough to live in an governed by a bunch of left wing lunatics/idiots. I live in a purple area where a lot of people have the means to protect themselves, their property and the community if necessary. I live in an area where competence matters and incompetence is frowned upon and replaced.

Republicans are taking voting rights away right now. They are oppressing women right now. They are imposing climate breakdown upon us right now. They are not getting vaccinated right now, thus imposing covid upon us. I sure hope we can use our authority to address social inequity, but that depends on whether all Democrats are real Democrats and not Republican wolves in sheep's clothing. And I sure hope we can take as many guns away from you guys as we can. 

Who wins the battle will probably depend on who has the state apparatus. Even then, Trump was unable to get the military to support his coup. He did manage to delay a response, so that an invasion of our capitol was allowed. If Kamala is nominated, then you will have your chance. Succession by blue states will be all but guaranteed then, if your side nominates someone you like. What will the battle look like then? Will you just tell us goodbye and good luck, or will you try to impose your rule and control over the entire country and keep us under your authority? If the reverse happens, and the Democrats nominate a candidate with a better horoscope score than your Party does, and you guys decide to secede, there may not be a fight, and we might just say goodbye and good luck. It does look pretty good for your side if Biden can't get re-elected and hold it together past 2024. The best Democratic candidates now seem too shy to step up, while your side does have some good possibilities.

The Republicans are making it harder for the Democrat's to cheat. Don't worry, you can offset it by eliminating election laws all together in the states that are currently dominated by the Democrats. Do you have a problem with that? I think most of us would be content with goodbye and good riddance at this point. I've heard some rumors that Pelosi may have intentionally delayed the response too. I mean she's one the one in charge of the Capitol's security. The buck stops with her. You probably don't know that but whatever you're clueless. The way I see it, the way Washington DC is going, DC isn't going be around long enough to be much of a factor.

[pbrower2a]

(09-03-2021, 03:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-02-2021, 03:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-02-2021, 12:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-01-2021, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Tom Cotton is scary. If he can be something other than a regional candidate, then I could see him exploiting economic or international distress to get the needed edge. He is not objectionable so far except for ideology... but he might be the perfect vehicle for American fascism. He reminds me of characters leading the vile Norsefire regime in V for Vendetta , which has a fascistic Britain in which the regime offers faith as a substitute for happiness and rationality. That sounds much like the American Religious Right. If America has not graduated away from the near 50-50 split between authoritarians and liberals, then some rough times could cause many independent voters to think that he is onto something --- much like the case in 2016 on behalf of Trump.

 
PB, which group of authoritarians is flexing its muscles and using its power and authority right now. It's not us, we are waiting for moral/legal justification to begin asserting our power and authority right now. Who is imposing social restrictions right now? Who using its power and authority to address social inequity now? Who is banning who right now? Who is targeting who right now? Who is trying to threaten and intimidate who right now? Me, I'm letting you know what's going to happen to a group of partisan twits when the gloves come off. I figure that I'm morally obligated to inform you and the others  in advance. 

Bob and Eric are right, we are authoritarians too. The difference, we don't have an interest in ruling and controlling the entire country. We have an interest in keeping a portion of the country free (American). I'd say the chances of Americans killing Democrats in another war over freedom is very likely right now. Me, I don't live in a heavy blue area. I'm not dumb enough to live in an governed by a bunch of left wing lunatics/idiots. I live in a purple area where a lot of people have the means to protect themselves, their property and the community if necessary. I live in an area where competence matters and incompetence is frowned upon and replaced.

Republicans are taking voting rights away right now. They are oppressing women right now. They are imposing climate breakdown upon us right now. They are not getting vaccinated right now, thus imposing covid upon us. I sure hope we can use our authority to address social inequity, but that depends on whether all Democrats are real Democrats and not Republican wolves in sheep's clothing. And I sure hope we can take as many guns away from you guys as we can. 

Who wins the battle will probably depend on who has the state apparatus. Even then, Trump was unable to get the military to support his coup. He did manage to delay a response, so that an invasion of our capitol was allowed. If Kamala is nominated, then you will have your chance. Succession by blue states will be all but guaranteed then, if your side nominates someone you like. What will the battle look like then? Will you just tell us goodbye and good luck, or will you try to impose your rule and control over the entire country and keep us under your authority? If the reverse happens, and the Democrats nominate a candidate with a better horoscope score than your Party does, and you guys decide to secede, there may not be a fight, and we might just say goodbye and good luck. It does look pretty good for your side if Biden can't get re-elected and hold it together past 2024. The best Democratic candidates now seem too shy to step up, while your side does have some good possibilities.

The Republicans are making it harder for the Democrat's to cheat.  Don't worry, you can offset it by eliminating election laws all together  in the states that are currently  dominated by the Democrats. Do you have a problem with that? I think most of us would be content with goodbye and good riddance at this point. I've heard some rumors that Pelosi may have intentionally delayed the  response too. I mean she's one the one in charge of the Capitol's security. The buck stops with her. You probably don't know that but whatever you're clueless. The way I see it, the way Washington DC is  going, DC isn't going be around long enough to be much of a factor.

No, Republicans are making it more difficult, on the whole, for voters unlikely to vote GOP is discriminatory, and it so looks, then it such is no less cheating than you claim that Democrats are doing. Such states as Arizona, Georgia, and Texas have now-weakening Republican machines intent on maintaining a hold on power after their time is reasonably up. If they can't stop the demographic shifts that can only hurt the GOP as it is now constituted, then they can whittle away at who gets the right to vote or even negate elections whose results they dislike.

Whittling away the right to vote of people unlikely to vote "right"? That is how Apartheid entrenched itself in South Africa. When something like that happens, then the system eventually becomes a potential stage for violent revolution. Nullification of the vote that political posses refuse to believer or accept? That is how many democracies have become full-blown dictatorships, 

Almost all the time, people denied democracy are denied liberty, peace, and prosperity. The more that leaders deny such to the People, the more hostile they get to the central government. Brutal autocracies are especially prone to starting wars of extreme destructiveness... and purges and persecutions.

[pbrower2a]

[pbrower2a]

Thank you, Eric, for showing one of the most dangerous manifestations of political polarization in in America.

(09-09-2021, 06:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-09-2021, 12:01 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: 10 worst states in the Delta surge. All 10 voted for Trump in 2020, 9 are deep red states. Here are the new daily infections per 100,000 people as of Aug.6 and this Forbes report, and the percent of people vaccinated, in these states.
1. FL 132.2 less than 50%
2. LA 96.6 37.2%
3. OK 79.4 40%
4. AR 69.5 41.8%
5. MS 68.1 34.8%
6. AL 56.6 34.6%
7. MO 48.5 41.8%
8. AK 48.5 45.8%
9. SC 44.7 40.9%
10. TN 40.5 39.4%



https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowa...ta-variant

Hard to believe, but Facebook thinks this post, which I put in a comment to an anti-vaxxer, is "hate".

Did you say something else?

[Eric the Green]

(09-09-2021, 08:04 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Thank you, Eric, for showing one of the most dangerous manifestations of political polarization in in America.

(09-09-2021, 06:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-09-2021, 12:01 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: 10 worst states in the Delta surge. All 10 voted for Trump in 2020, 9 are deep red states. Here are the new daily infections per 100,000 people as of Aug.6 and this Forbes report, and the percent of people vaccinated, in these states.
1. FL 132.2 less than 50%
2. LA 96.6 37.2%
3. OK 79.4 40%
4. AR 69.5 41.8%
5. MS 68.1 34.8%
6. AL 56.6 34.6%
7. MO 48.5 41.8%
8. AK 48.5 45.8%
9. SC 44.7 40.9%
10. TN 40.5 39.4%



https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowa...ta-variant

Hard to believe, but Facebook thinks this post, which I put in a comment to an anti-vaxxer, is "hate".

Did you say something else?

No, that was it. My guess is that facebook has set up robots to pick out violations, and "red state/blue state" is considered a hate meme by some people and by some robots I think. Amy Bell from the secret site called me a troll for talking about them. So, I guess people don't want to face up to the fact that we are polarized. But it's reported all the time as the fact. The infuriating thing about the facebook action is they don't let you appeal violation notices right now, using covid as an excuse. Rather ironic too isn't it.

[pbrower2a]

North Korea is a Hell. The unlikely combination of three of the worst tendencies in history in the last seven hundred years -- Marxism-Leninism, fascist ultra-nationalism (this regime adopts patterns learned from Japanese oppressors before 1945), and absolute monarchy -- make North Korea what it is. If North Korea had had the sort of Christian influence that South Korea has now, then the North Korean government would twist that into something incredibly ugly.

It blames America for everything,,. even if it hasn't been in a full-blown shooting war with the USA for nearly seventy years. For good reason, the excoriations of wartime ideally either disappear or get contrasted with later reality. The people culpable for the Bataan Death March are not to be confused with contemporary Japanese.

I can understand anyone from a former Communist country (Slovakia is an example) despising anything that reeks of Marxist ideology. It's not that people want to return to some feudal past. Marxism-Leninism promised a glorious future for Humanity and turned free people into serfs of a State responsible to Communist Party hacks who themselves become as irresponsible as feudal lords, tycoons, and corporate bureaucrats. Then again, about everyone in Germany and Austria is an anti-fascist, and there are few Japanese who would get excited at the prospect of becoming a kamikaze pilot. I love the German and Austrian heritage of musical composition and Japanese aesthetics. I consider Dachau and Bataan horrible and inexcusable... but I know where to place culpability. It isn't with Hokusai or Mozart.

I hope that I am not hypocritical. The USA did horrible things to the First Peoples and did have chattel slavery. We had the dangerous KKK of the 1920's which had many of the characteristics of German and Italian fascists who probably learned a few things about a cause similar to theirs. A KKK-dominated America would have rivaled German, Italian, and Japanese fascists for horrific deeds upon helpless people. All that kept the KKK from doing large-scale genocide like that of the Nazis is that it disintegrated before it had the chance to gain power and impose its perverse will in America. Wherever we are we all have the ethical obligation to resist evil wherever it turns up. Mistreatment of helpless people is the first mark of the (fascist, Marxist-Leninist, Baathist, or ISIS "beast").

In the last forty years or so, America has treated poor people of any ethnicity badly. Poor blacks often think that "white privilege" is the problem -- but the American economic system oppresses poor white people just as badly as it does poor blacks. Blacks are more likely to have trouble with the legal and penal system -- and that's the difference between White and Black. White people get away with more, especially with drugs and petty crime.

[Bob Butler 54]

A bit ago, I was looking for something to watch on TV.  I stumbled on PBS’s American Masters, with the subject or the week being Rita Moreno.  Rita Moreno?  My first thought was that as time goes by they would have more and more trouble finding a ‘master’ who they have not already covered.  Who the heck was Rita Moreno?

I found out soon enough.  She is a singer, dancer and actress, one of the few who has picked up Emmy, Oscar, Tony and Grammy awards.  She played the king’s favorite concubine in The King and I.  She played the absurdly accented pre sound star in Singing in the Rain.  She notably played the dominant Shark female in the movie version of West Side Story.  She went on with appearances on Electric Company and Sesame Street.  Ok.  Yep.  They aren’t out of masters yet.

Her notable grumble was typecasting and stereotyping.  There was one point in her career that she couldn’t get a part without make up to make her skin darker, wearing a wig, and assuming a foreign accent.  She was the cute foreign love interest.  It was common in the 1950s that men ran roughshod on the projected stupid, foreign, dark woman.  She spoke of having a common not-English accent.  It didn’t matter if she were playing a Pacific Islander, a Native American, an Asian, a Hispanic or whatever.  So long as she was cute, devoted seeming to her male counterpart, and spoke with her phony accent, she kept being hired.  No other part was offered.

That trend broke with West Side Story.  She got to play a spitfire who spoke her mind, danced her heart out (America), and to play a hispanic coming from her own background of Puerto Rico and the West Side of New York City.  She got to throw away the stereotypes, to break the typecasting, and by the way pick up an Oscar in the process.  Among the clips shown were several actresses saying thank you Rita for breaking the mold, for being the example, for leading the way.

A few nights later, there was a YouTube video on the movie Live and Let Die featuring the film’s Bond Girl, Solitaire, played by Jane Seymour.  Jane was white, as easy to look at as Rita, and had a related complaint.  Women in those days constantly needed to be rescued and were generally three steps behind the male lead as he did the rescuing.  She contrasted it with the modern Bond Women, who were shown in clips from the new Bond movie.  The mostly had submachine guns shooting villains dead, not noticeably missing, while wearing sexy clothing.

What is a desirable woman other than cute and a good shot?  In West Side Story there was one girl who wanted to join the Jets, and was rejected and ridiculed by the gang.  How dare she aspire to play a male role?  Who was it that saved Tony when he was hurt and all the real male Jets had run?  How do we vote with our dollars to see women portrayed by Hollywood?

I have a feeling that this shift in stereotypes has something to do with the Red Blue divide.  What do we expect the minority or female to be?  How much does one do what one is expected to do, to be what one is expected to be?

[Classic-Xer]

(09-23-2021, 06:45 AM)taramarie Wrote: You know what? The non extremist right wingers have a point. Watch this and i would say watch the whole video before commenting as it is vital to hear a North Korean defector's POV of the state of America and I will say it extends to other countries as well, especially now. It is very important to watch with an open mind and take in her concerns that the country that she is in now, is starting to remind her of where she ran away from. There are the beginnings of a communist regime beginning to take form which concerns her. Now, I am a left winger from New Zealand. But after learning some things along the way through life recently, I am beginning to agree with her, that there are some major issues within the left wing that i listen to not only from New Zealand but especially in the USA and i have friends there and i used to agree with them. Now i consider them in some ways very extremist, and this video will explain why. Now as i do not like cancel culture nor the foolish woke culture, I am open for a discussion on this. I hope our right wingers come back and chime in also as i am very curious to hear from them as well as the left wingers here.

Enjoy this very insightful video.

You're not telling me anything that I haven't known for many years. I'm glad to see that you've been enlightened (wised up) so to speak. Woke Culture hasn't really tangled with American Culture yet. It's mainly tangling with the American Left right now. I predict that when it does, there will be no Woke survivors. You see, American Cancel Culture is actually more dangerous than them. American Cancel Culture can and will destroy them. ( I'm a product of REAL American Culture). The bulk of the people you see are products of academia or Facebook or Twitter. It didn't take REAL American Culture very long to undermine, weaken and eliminate the quasi socialist regime that controlled the old forum before you began posting. I should know, I played a significant role in it's demise.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-23-2021, 08:37 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: North Korea is a Hell. The unlikely combination of three of the worst tendencies in history in the last seven hundred years -- Marxism-Leninism, fascist ultra-nationalism (this regime adopts patterns learned from Japanese oppressors before 1945), and absolute monarchy -- make North Korea what it is. If North Korea had had the sort of Christian influence that South Korea has now, then the North Korean government would twist that into something incredibly ugly.

It blames America for everything,,. even if it hasn't been in a full-blown shooting war with the USA for nearly seventy years. For good reason, the excoriations of wartime ideally either disappear or get contrasted with later reality. The people culpable for the Bataan Death March are not to be confused with contemporary Japanese.

I can understand anyone from a former Communist country (Slovakia is an example) despising anything that reeks of Marxist ideology. It's not that people want to return to some feudal past. Marxism-Leninism promised a glorious future for Humanity and turned free people into serfs of a State responsible to Communist Party hacks who themselves become as irresponsible as feudal lords, tycoons, and corporate bureaucrats. Then again, about everyone in Germany  and Austria is an anti-fascist, and there are few Japanese who would get excited at the prospect of becoming a kamikaze pilot.   I love the German and Austrian heritage of musical composition and Japanese aesthetics. I consider Dachau and Bataan horrible and inexcusable... but I know where to place culpability. It isn't with Hokusai or Mozart.

I hope that I am not hypocritical. The USA did horrible things to the First Peoples and did have chattel slavery. We had the dangerous KKK of the 1920's which had many of the characteristics of German and Italian fascists who probably learned a few things about a cause similar to theirs. A KKK-dominated America would have rivaled German, Italian, and Japanese fascists for horrific deeds upon helpless people. All that kept the KKK from doing large-scale genocide like that of the Nazis is that it disintegrated before it had the chance to gain power and impose its perverse will in America.  Wherever we are we all have the ethical obligation to resist evil wherever it turns up. Mistreatment of helpless people is the first mark of the (fascist, Marxist-Leninist, Baathist, or ISIS "beast").

In the last forty years or so, America has treated poor people of any ethnicity badly. Poor blacks often think that "white privilege" is the problem -- but the American economic system oppresses poor white people just as badly as it does poor blacks. Blacks are more likely to have trouble with the legal and penal system -- and that's the difference between White and Black. White people get away with more, especially with drugs and petty crime.

I treat you bad because you do/say stupid shit and deserve it. I hope you're not foolish enough to claim that you're a saint at this point. Has anyone ever tried to beat some sense? I suppose beating some sense into someone with Asperger's doesn't work. So, what's the alternative?

[pbrower2a]

(10-09-2021, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-23-2021, 08:37 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: North Korea is a Hell. The unlikely combination of three of the worst tendencies in history in the last seven hundred years -- Marxism-Leninism, fascist ultra-nationalism (this regime adopts patterns learned from Japanese oppressors before 1945), and absolute monarchy -- make North Korea what it is. If North Korea had had the sort of Christian influence that South Korea has now, then the North Korean government would twist that into something incredibly ugly.

It blames America for everything,,. even if it hasn't been in a full-blown shooting war with the USA for nearly seventy years. For good reason, the excoriations of wartime ideally either disappear or get contrasted with later reality. The people culpable for the Bataan Death March are not to be confused with contemporary Japanese.

I can understand anyone from a former Communist country (Slovakia is an example) despising anything that reeks of Marxist ideology. It's not that people want to return to some feudal past. Marxism-Leninism promised a glorious future for Humanity and turned free people into serfs of a State responsible to Communist Party hacks who themselves become as irresponsible as feudal lords, tycoons, and corporate bureaucrats. Then again, about everyone in Germany  and Austria is an anti-fascist, and there are few Japanese who would get excited at the prospect of becoming a kamikaze pilot.   I love the German and Austrian heritage of musical composition and Japanese aesthetics. I consider Dachau and Bataan horrible and inexcusable... but I know where to place culpability. It isn't with Hokusai or Mozart.

I hope that I am not hypocritical. The USA did horrible things to the First Peoples and did have chattel slavery. We had the dangerous KKK of the 1920's which had many of the characteristics of German and Italian fascists who probably learned a few things about a cause similar to theirs. A KKK-dominated America would have rivaled German, Italian, and Japanese fascists for horrific deeds upon helpless people. All that kept the KKK from doing large-scale genocide like that of the Nazis is that it disintegrated before it had the chance to gain power and impose its perverse will in America.  Wherever we are we all have the ethical obligation to resist evil wherever it turns up. Mistreatment of helpless people is the first mark of the (fascist, Marxist-Leninist, Baathist, or ISIS "beast").

In the last forty years or so, America has treated poor people of any ethnicity badly. Poor blacks often think that "white privilege" is the problem -- but the American economic system oppresses poor white people just as badly as it does poor blacks. Blacks are more likely to have trouble with the legal and penal system -- and that's the difference between White and Black. White people get away with more, especially with drugs and petty crime.

I treat you bad because you do/say stupid s--- and deserve it. I hope you're not foolish enough to claim that you're a saint at this point. Has anyone ever tried to beat some sense? I suppose beating some sense into someone with Asperger's doesn't work. So, what's the alternative?

No, you don't beat sense into people. If you do that to children, then children learn that might justifies anything. Such is the ethical position of many criminals. Corporal punishment does as more harm than good, and the only imaginable use for it that I can see is as a means of associating dangerous behaviors (let us say playing with matches or electrical cords) with pain. There are more appropriate ways of dealing with bad behavior and sub-par performance. Often it is enough for someone to learn that bad behavior and sub-par performance is that the results are unsatisfying.

The people who most experience corporal punishment as children often become criminals.Corporal punishment teaches that violence works in getting attention, goodies, and even self-esteem. If those who experience an undue level of corporal punishment don't become criminals they often become broken-down wretches. The line between corporal punishment and outright abuse is too fine for most people to discern.

...I don't claim to be a saint. I often fall short of my ideals even if I try to avoid double standards, but what people don't? The rare saints... and people proud of their own nastiness as people.

It is impossible to beat sense into people. It is more likely that one either beats cruelty or a sense of hopelessness into people if one does not killing them outright. The limits of your learning are evident. I hope you learned a lesson. To be sure, I can be pedantic.

[pbrower2a]

(10-09-2021, 10:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-23-2021, 06:45 AM)taramarie Wrote: You know what? The non extremist right wingers have a point. Watch this and i would say watch the whole video before commenting as it is vital to hear a North Korean defector's POV of the state of America and I will say it extends to other countries as well, especially now. It is very important to watch with an open mind and take in her concerns that the country that she is in now, is starting to remind her of where she ran away from. There are the beginnings of a communist regime beginning to take form which concerns her. Now, I am a left winger from New Zealand. But after learning some things along the way through life recently, I am beginning to agree with her, that there are some major issues within the left wing that i listen to not only from New Zealand but especially in the USA and i have friends there and i used to agree with them. Now i consider them in some ways very extremist, and this video will explain why. Now as i do not like cancel culture nor the foolish woke culture, I am open for a discussion on this. I hope our right wingers come back and chime in also as i am very curious to hear from them as well as the left wingers here.

Enjoy this very insightful video.

You're not telling me anything that I haven't known for many years. I'm glad to see that you've been enlightened (wised up) so to speak. Woke Culture hasn't really tangled with American Culture yet. It's mainly tangling with the American Left right now. I predict that when it does, there will be no Woke survivors. You see, American Cancel Culture is actually more dangerous than them. American Cancel Culture can and will destroy them. ( I'm a product of REAL American Culture). The bulk of the people you see are products of academia or Facebook or Twitter. It didn't take REAL American Culture very long to undermine, weaken and eliminate the quasi socialist regime that controlled the old forum before you began posting. I should know, I played a significant role in it's demise.

Prejudice and unequal opportunity are realities in America.  It is impossible to be black, Hispanic, First Peoples, or LGBT to not recognize that reality.The more mature parts of American society know this. Nobody needs excuse any bad behavior that one uses "wokeness" for a sordid rationale. Bad behavior is simply bad. 

Cancel culture is a different matter: people lose their privilege for doing something disgraceful. I recall FoX Sports "canceling" the contrast of sportscaster Steve Lyons for insinuating that Hispanics are heavily car thieves. FoX Sports was right to end that career.

Here's something more recent:

Quote:On August 19, 2020, while providing commentary on Fox Sports Ohio, for the first game of an away doubleheader between the Reds and the Kansas City Royals, Brennaman was caught on a hot mic referring to an undisclosed location as "one of the fag capitals of the world."[4][5] The Reds pulled him off the air during the second game, with studio host Jim Day taking over play-by-play after the top of the fifth inning. Before leaving the booth, Brennaman apologized for his earlier anti-gay slur, saying that he was "deeply ashamed" if he "hurt anyone out there." He also hinted that his broadcasting future was in doubt, saying, "I don't know if I'm going to be putting on this headset again."[6][7]

Many people noted the awkwardness of the apology; as a red-faced Brennaman rushed to inform viewers that "I pride myself and think of myself as a man of faith", he suddenly paused to call a home run by Nick Castellanos.[8] He went on to state that he apologizes to "the people who sign my paycheck", and asserted, "That is not who I am, and never has been. And I'd like to think that maybe I could have some people that, uh, that could back that up." Many social media users remarked that these were extremely unusual and strange comments to make during a baseball game, and suggested that Brennaman should not have chosen to make an on-air apology at all, rather than spontaneously trying to come up with something off the cuff that made his situation even worse.
Later that night, the Reds announced that Brennaman had been suspended indefinitely pending an internal review.[6] The following day, Fox Sports announced that Brennaman would not be part of its NFL broadcast roster in 2020.[9]

Brennaman wrote a longer apology for The Cincinnati Enquirer the next day, after speaking to openly gay MLB inclusion ambassador Billy Bean. He also called WCPO-TV anchor Evan Millward, who posted an editorial on his station's website criticizing his FS Ohio statement as a non-apology apology, and said he would reach out to the LGBTQ+ organization PFLAG to make further amends.[10][11] Almost a month later, Brennaman officially resigned from the Reds and Fox Sports Ohio.[12] However, the Reds had already informed Brennaman that he would not return for the 2021 season. Brennaman himself told USA Today that he realized his remark "hurt a lot of people" and that he will "have to live with it for the rest of my life."[13]

Brennaman was replaced by John Sadak for Reds games, and Kevin Kugler for NFL games on Fox.

Let me suggest that three  basic rules rules apply to life:

1. All snakes should be considered venomous until you know otherwise.
2. All guns should be assumed to be loaded.
3. All microphones should be considered live; any phone off the hook can catch any sound, and any camera may be running

A live microphone can be as deadly to a career as can a venomous snake to be to a body. If I were in a place with microphones I might be tempted to call microphones "snakes". A live mike can kill a career. To be sure, Thom Brennaman bungled the aftermath badly. He used the play-by-play to issue a pathetic exculpation of himself rather than paying attention to the game. I saw the video. He had saving his evaporating career as his focus instead of the game.

A welder's career can come from a welding torch whose flame touches his skin.

[Eric the Green]

One thing I notice in the USA is the injustice applied to penalties for bad behavior. This week, authorities declined to prosecute police officers who shot and paralyzed young, black Mr. Blake 7 times at point blank range just for getting into his car. The excuse is that they thought he had a knife. This is the incident that sparked riots in Kenosha Wisconsin during which another terrorist from Illinois killed two more demonstrators and some buildings were burned. Meanwhile, some sports manager is under fire and may be fired just for saying something apparently-racist just once, 10 years ago. Saying something wrong is penalized more severely than doing something wrong that actually physically hurts someone.

[Eric the Green]

It would be nice to know what this lady alleges without having to listen to an hour-long, rambling video.

[Eric the Green]

"Woke" culture in the USA seems to refer to whatever you want to call it. I have noticed that right-wing conspiracy theory/QAnon believers use this term to describe themselves, as well as supposedly politically-correct diversity/identity-obsessed left-wingers. But who is really "woke" or "awake"?

George Monbiot as usual nails it. He described how left-wingers are being seduced into this conspiracy theory "woke" culture:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre...xers-power

"A few years ago, dreadlocked hippies spreading QAnon lies and muttering about a conspiracy against Donald Trump would have seemed unthinkable. Today, the old boundaries have broken down, and the most unlikely people have become susceptible to rightwing extremism.

The anti-vaccine movement is a highly effective channel for the penetration of far-right ideas into leftwing countercultures. For several years, anti-vax has straddled the green left and the far right......Anti-vax beliefs overlap strongly with a susceptibility to conspiracy theories. This tendency has been reinforced by Facebook algorithms directing vaccine-hesitant people towards far-right conspiracy groups......After left-ish political parties fell into line with corporate power, the right seized the language they had abandoned. Steve Bannon and Dominic Cummings brilliantly repurposed the leftwing themes of resisting elite power and regaining control of our lives. Now there has been an almost perfect language swap. Parties that once belonged on the left talk about security and stability while those on the right talk of liberation and revolt.

But I suspect it also has something to do with the issues we now face. A justified suspicion about the self-interest of big pharma clashes with the need for mass vaccination. The lockdowns and other measures required to prevent Covid-19 spreading are policies which, in other circumstances, would rightly be seen as coercive political control. Curtailing the pandemic, climate breakdown and the collapse of biodiversity means powerful agreements struck between governments – which can be hard to swallow for movements that have long fought multilateral power while emphasizing the local and the homespun...."