The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Classic-Xer]

pbrower2a

(01-28-2022, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: David Horn has said the problem is we have no leaders. Myself, I blame Classic Xer. And all the people who think like him, which is apparently the majority. I do not let them off the hook.

We have so to speak, two different sets of opposing leaders who have little in common in their agendas and who cannot make workable compromises. For one side it is all or nothing, or "my way or the highway".

Once again, you are not paying attention to, or keeping track of, all your bullshit. So, how has the all or nothing "my way or the high way" approach been working out for Biden and you guys? Are you winning or losing the battle with America? So, what should you expect from Us in return?

[Classic-Xer]

(01-28-2022, 10:30 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-28-2022, 01:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bluer as in more darker in terms of peoples skin tone or bluer as in more Progressive minded and big government oriented/related like Washington DC? In Minnesota, the rural Democrats are dying off and the rural communities that were controlled by them for several decades are turning into ghost towns. As a result, the more economic minded and more American minded Republicans and their voters are taking over and the economy is becoming more economically diverse. So, are you familiar with what's going on between Buckhead and Atlanta these days? Buckhead has formally declared its independence and is in the process of breaking free from from Atlanta. I think it's a good gauge what's to come and what to expect as time goes on.

Rural areas have always been more conservative in every meaning of the word -- even during the labor movement period of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  Dogma tends to set-in in more insular communities.  They may get infuriated, but they aren't empowered, unless they decide to bring out the guns.  Then it's open rebellion.  Nothing good comes from that.

The young don't believe it can happen, not even the rural young.  If it does, then the armies are aligned and battlelines drawn.  Youth WILL show up out of pure self-interest.

Dude, the armies are already aligned and the battle lines have already been drawn and the Blue youth that show up out of pure self interest are going to find Themselves being turned against each other and slaughtered. The Blue community seems pretty insular and dogmatic these days don't you think. I suppose that you don't think or view it that way since it's very obvious to everyone else that you're one of Them. Sorry dude, I wish I was a better writer than a businessman. It's the only thing that's keeping you in the game at this point.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-02-2022, 01:11 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, the armies are already aligned and the battle lines have already been drawn and the Blue youth that show up out of pure self interest are going to find Themselves being turned against each other and slaughtered. The Blue community seems pretty insular and dogmatic these days don't you think. I suppose that you don't think or view it that way since it's very obvious to everyone else that you're one of Them. Sorry dude, I wish I was a better writer than a businessman. It's the only thing that's  keeping you in the game at this point.

Again, the no change, stay the same, no solve the problem side has aways lost in a crisis. I don't know why you expect things to be different this time.

[pbrower2a]

(02-02-2022, 01:11 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2022, 10:30 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-28-2022, 01:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bluer as in more darker in terms of peoples skin tone or bluer as in more Progressive minded and big government oriented/related like Washington DC? In Minnesota, the rural Democrats are dying off and the rural communities that were controlled by them for several decades are turning into ghost towns. As a result, the more economic minded and more American minded Republicans and their voters are taking over and the economy is becoming more economically diverse. So, are you familiar with what's going on between Buckhead and Atlanta these days? Buckhead has formally declared its independence and is in the process of breaking free from from Atlanta. I think it's a good gauge what's to come and what to expect as time goes on.

Rural areas have always been more conservative in every meaning of the word -- even during the labor movement period of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  Dogma tends to set-in in more insular communities.  They may get infuriated, but they aren't empowered, unless they decide to bring out the guns.  Then it's open rebellion.  Nothing good comes from that.

The young don't believe it can happen, not even the rural young.  If it does, then the armies are aligned and battlelines drawn.  Youth WILL show up out of pure self-interest.

Dude, the armies are already aligned and the battle lines have already been drawn and the Blue youth that show up out of pure self interest are going to find Themselves being turned against each other and slaughtered. The Blue community seems pretty insular and dogmatic these days don't you think. I suppose that you don't think or view it that way since it's very obvious to everyone else that you're one of Them. Sorry dude, I wish I was a better writer than a businessman. It's the only thing that's  keeping you in the game at this point.

In your scenario, the US Armed Services would divide between your concept of a Real America and the more diverse America. The Armed Services recruit heavily from poor people with the offering of steady work, clear direction, and career training. It is too well-disciplined to splinter. In short the Army is not on any side yet, and it will not end up on any one side unless to suppress sedition -- especially if that manifests itself in 'ethnic cleansing' or religious persecutions.  

You may expect private militias responsible to none but their leaders to establish marauding bands; the Army knows how to deal with such bands. Those bands will be put down swiftly and surely. If those marauding bands leave behind large numbers of dead, then images of such will be powerful tools for discrediting them.

[Eric the Green]

(02-02-2022, 09:55 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-02-2022, 01:11 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2022, 10:30 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-28-2022, 01:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bluer as in more darker in terms of peoples skin tone or bluer as in more Progressive minded and big government oriented/related like Washington DC? In Minnesota, the rural Democrats are dying off and the rural communities that were controlled by them for several decades are turning into ghost towns. As a result, the more economic minded and more American minded Republicans and their voters are taking over and the economy is becoming more economically diverse. So, are you familiar with what's going on between Buckhead and Atlanta these days? Buckhead has formally declared its independence and is in the process of breaking free from from Atlanta. I think it's a good gauge what's to come and what to expect as time goes on.

Rural areas have always been more conservative in every meaning of the word -- even during the labor movement period of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  Dogma tends to set-in in more insular communities.  They may get infuriated, but they aren't empowered, unless they decide to bring out the guns.  Then it's open rebellion.  Nothing good comes from that.

The young don't believe it can happen, not even the rural young.  If it does, then the armies are aligned and battlelines drawn.  Youth WILL show up out of pure self-interest.

Dude, the armies are already aligned and the battle lines have already been drawn and the Blue youth that show up out of pure self interest are going to find Themselves being turned against each other and slaughtered. The Blue community seems pretty insular and dogmatic these days don't you think. I suppose that you don't think or view it that way since it's very obvious to everyone else that you're one of Them. Sorry dude, I wish I was a better writer than a businessman. It's the only thing that's  keeping you in the game at this point.

In your scenario, the US Armed Services would divide between your concept of a Real America and the more diverse America. The Armed Services recruit heavily from poor people with the offering of steady work, clear direction, and career training. It is too well-disciplined to splinter. In short the Army is not on any side yet, and it will not end up on any one side unless to suppress sedition -- especially if that manifests itself in 'ethnic cleansing' or religious persecutions.  

You may expect private militias responsible to none but their leaders to establish marauding bands; the Army knows how to deal with such bands. Those bands will be put down swiftly and surely. If those marauding bands leave behind large numbers of dead, then images of such will be powerful tools for discrediting them.

It is clear that Trump tried in every way to steal the presidency from the people, who elected Joe Biden instead. He asked the army to steal voting machines so they could be tampered with. He asked state officials to change the votes. He asked his attorney general to declare the election invalid. He asked his vice president to change the electoral vote. Only the willingness of the officials which he himself appointed to obey the constitution saved our republic from this tramp pretender. Yet you on the red side oppose the constitution and instead obey this demagogue tyrant, and organize militias carrying illegal guns to do your will.

You Classic Xer think that your side will stay loyal to this idiot liar and cheater. I doubt that they will. If Trump is re-elected in 2024, probably through tampering with the electoral vote and suppressing voters' rights, he will appoint officials only loyal to him, not to the constitution, and who can be depended upon to disobey the oath which is administered to them. You think the people will stay loyal to the tyrant demagogue, but this may not happen.

Your goal is ethnic cleansing, on Trump's theory that urban people of color have no rights and should not vote, or that their votes are invalid and should not be counted. But these people will also have a voice and a power, and they may continue to have the state and the constitution on their side, instead of on yours.

[Eric the Green]

(02-02-2022, 12:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: pbrower2a

(01-28-2022, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: David Horn has said the problem is we have no leaders. Myself, I blame Classic Xer. And all the people who think like him, which is apparently the majority. I do not let them off the hook.

We have so to speak, two different sets of opposing leaders who have little in common in their agendas and who cannot make workable compromises. For one side it is all or nothing, or "my way or the highway".

Once again, you are not paying attention to, or keeping track of, all your bullshit. So, how has the all or nothing "my way or the high way" approach been working out for Biden and you guys? Are you winning or losing the battle with America? So, what should you expect from Us in return?

The red side accuses the blue side of my way or the highway, while the blue side does the same to the red side. The blue side believes it has the right to pass a transformative bill through reconciliation, and it does have that right, and to pass voting rights bills through suspending the filibuster-- which the red side also repealed in order to stack the Court. But two phony Democrats are blocking our side. So, negotiations with them and possibly with Republicans continue in order to at least get something done.

To our side, continued stagnation and blocking of progress, after 40 years of this, is no longer acceptable. Problems have piled up and require action, not staying the same. Climate change will destroy civilization if not curbed. The USA is the most unequal and economically and socially/healthwise impoverished of ANY developed nation, by far. Voting rights are being squelched by a tyrant and his Party who would use any means to seize power. Police are unfairly killing unarmed people of color, and racial profiling and gaps and needless gun violence continue.

These and other concerns demand action, not the continued enabling of a few rich people to rule over us indefinitely, as empowered by neoliberal trickle-down, anti-tax, anti-welfare and white christian supremacy ideologies embraced unthinkingly by rural hillbillies lost in parochial, provincial mindsets and who have influence over our nation greater than their numbers should allow.

Since your side demands that the 40-plus-year status quo continue indefinitely, we are in a battle. How hot our cold civil war gets depends mostly on your side. It is a battle FOR America, not a battle WITH America.

[pbrower2a]

(02-02-2022, 01:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-02-2022, 09:55 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-02-2022, 01:11 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2022, 10:30 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-28-2022, 01:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bluer as in more darker in terms of peoples skin tone or bluer as in more Progressive minded and big government oriented/related like Washington DC? In Minnesota, the rural Democrats are dying off and the rural communities that were controlled by them for several decades are turning into ghost towns. As a result, the more economic minded and more American minded Republicans and their voters are taking over and the economy is becoming more economically diverse. So, are you familiar with what's going on between Buckhead and Atlanta these days? Buckhead has formally declared its independence and is in the process of breaking free from from Atlanta. I think it's a good gauge what's to come and what to expect as time goes on.

Rural areas have always been more conservative in every meaning of the word -- even during the labor movement period of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  Dogma tends to set-in in more insular communities.  They may get infuriated, but they aren't empowered, unless they decide to bring out the guns.  Then it's open rebellion.  Nothing good comes from that.

The young don't believe it can happen, not even the rural young.  If it does, then the armies are aligned and battlelines drawn.  Youth WILL show up out of pure self-interest.

Dude, the armies are already aligned and the battle lines have already been drawn and the Blue youth that show up out of pure self interest are going to find Themselves being turned against each other and slaughtered. The Blue community seems pretty insular and dogmatic these days don't you think. I suppose that you don't think or view it that way since it's very obvious to everyone else that you're one of Them. Sorry dude, I wish I was a better writer than a businessman. It's the only thing that's  keeping you in the game at this point.

In your scenario, the US Armed Services would divide between your concept of a Real America and the more diverse America. The Armed Services recruit heavily from poor people with the offering of steady work, clear direction, and career training. It is too well-disciplined to splinter. In short the Army is not on any side yet, and it will not end up on any one side unless to suppress sedition -- especially if that manifests itself in 'ethnic cleansing' or religious persecutions.  

You may expect private militias responsible to none but their leaders to establish marauding bands; the Army knows how to deal with such bands. Those bands will be put down swiftly and surely. If those marauding bands leave behind large numbers of dead, then images of such will be powerful tools for discrediting them.

It is clear that Trump tried in every way to steal the presidency from the people, who elected Joe Biden instead. He asked the army to steal voting machines so they could be tampered with. He asked state officials to change the votes. He asked his attorney general to declare the election invalid. He asked his vice president to change the electoral vote. Only the willingness of the officials which he himself appointed to obey the constitution saved our republic from this tramp pretender. Yet you on the red side oppose the constitution and instead obey this demagogue tyrant, and organize militias carrying illegal guns to do your will.

We typically have an alternation of Party dominance because one of the Parties once in power either starts to fail or goes stale. We had a succession of three two-term Presidents (Clinton, Dubya, Obama) followed by a President from the other Party. Trump came close to getting re-elected despite an execrable record as President, which demonstrates the usual effectiveness of incumbency. The last one-term President before Trump, the elder Bush was basically an echo of the politically-successful Reagan. It took three terms for the Reagan-Bush Presidency to go stale.

Had President Trump been a more effective President, then he would have won re-election. He did enough to cause enough voters (by about one million nationwide, which demonstrates the distortion that the Electoral College creates) to turn against him. Trump claims to have lost because of 'late' votes. No, he lost because of votes counted late, and that the votes were counted late in Atlanta, Detroit, Las Vegas, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Pittsburgh does not so much reflect votes coming in late as it does the delay in completing the count. Votes counted the next day count no less than those that can be counted and tallied within a few minutes after the precinct (with a small population) closes.

Republicans have yet to figure why they fare so poorly in winning certain demographics. When they finally respond appropriately they will win big again.

Quote:You Classic Xer think that your side will stay loyal to this idiot liar and cheater. I doubt that they will. If Trump is re-elected in 2024, probably through tampering with the electoral vote and suppressing voters' rights, he will appoint officials only loyal to him, not to the constitution, and who can be depended upon to disobey the oath which is administered to them. You think the people will stay loyal to the tyrant demagogue, but this may not happen.

His side will remain loyal to the Trump agenda, especially if someone adopts it. His side will sacrifice liberty and democracy with glee so long as his side hears the soothing platitudes about themselves and excoriation of those unlike them. The gutting of American democracy does not depend upon Trump being the R nominee.

More germane is whether his side will shrink. The Trump agenda appeals heavily to an older-than-average demographic that one can expect to shrink if it isn't replaced. For an analogy of replacement, nursing homes that relied heavily on clients born in the 1890's and 1900's forty years ago now rely heavily upon clients born in the 1930's and 1940's. This said, recordings of  Perry Como are readily available to anyone who wants them... as cast-offs that nobody buys in thrift stores. (Como had an attractive voice, but he largely sang sentimental mush much out of style these days).

Economic necessity (nursing homes) changes less rapidly than does culture (musical tastes and political values). We shall see whether the 2022 midterm elections make R cheating possible in 2024. In the event that Republicans get overwhelming power through electoral cheating, then they will be in position in which to mow down any protesters whose deaths will mark the end of American democracy for a very long time.

Quote:Your goal is ethnic cleansing, on Trump's theory that urban people of color have no rights and should not vote, or that their votes are invalid and should not be counted. But these people will also have a voice and a power, and they may continue to have the state and the constitution on their side, instead of on yours.

Germany in 1930 had only one significant model minority: the Jews. Model minorities doing well are far more likely to be exterminated than oppressed minorities precious for cheap labor. The elites cherish the high profits of economic exploitation, but they love to eliminate competition such as small business. America has several model minorities that now vote largely D despite having good cause to be conservatives on property rights, business regulation, crime, taxes, and labor-management relations... and having traditions that they consider precious.

At this point I predict that the conservative coalition of 2040 (should democracy prevail in America) will more resemble Obama supporters than Trump supporters.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-02-2022, 06:45 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-02-2022, 01:11 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, the armies are already aligned and the battle lines have already been drawn and the Blue youth that show up out of pure self interest are going to find Themselves being turned against each other and slaughtered. The Blue community seems pretty insular and dogmatic these days don't you think. I suppose that you don't think or view it that way since it's very obvious to everyone else that you're one of Them. Sorry dude, I wish I was a better writer than a businessman. It's the only thing that's  keeping you in the game at this point.

Again, the no change, stay the same, no solve the problem side has aways lost in a crisis.  I don't know why you expect things to be different this time.

Where did you get the impression that I expect things to be different this time? Unlike you, I don't expect things to be different this time. I expect to see some kind of conflict to occur that results in human casualties and loss of life. So far, the Democrat's in charge seem to be hell bent on setting the stage for such a conflict to occur within the United States. Why here? I guess the Northern Democrats aka Northern Aristocracy of today aren't any wiser and are as arrogant as the Southern Democrats aka Southern Aristocracy were prior to the last American civil war.

What prompted you to vote for Hoover and reinstate the 3T status quo this time? Did someone trick you into believing that Bumbling Biden was equivalent to FDR or something? Was it years of Democratic related indoctrination and propaganda or what? You're the one who made the big mistake so I'll leave it to you to figure it out as your dealing with rising costs, financial losses and all kinds of nasty problems that are mainly Democratic related or largely caused by Democrats during the 4T.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-02-2022, 02:00 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It is a battle FOR America, not a battle WITH America.

Dude, a battle FOR America that doesn't involve a battle WITH America is meaningless.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-03-2022, 02:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Where did you get the impression that I expect things to be different this time? Unlike you, I don't expect things to be different this time. I expect to see some kind of conflict to occur that results in human casualties and loss of life. So far, the Democrat's in charge seem to be hell bent on setting the stage for such a conflict to occur within the United States. Why here? I guess the Northern Democrats aka Northern Aristocracy of today aren't any wiser and are as arrogant as the Southern Democrats aka Southern Aristocracy were prior to the last American civil war.

One difference is that you expect overt violence.  There is a difference between January Sixth and Gettysburg.  In the Information Age - as the suffragettes, Gandhi, and MLK demonstrated - it is possible in a democracy to change the culture without violence.  Thus far, this crisis is reflecting the change.  Unlike you, I do not have to ignore history to hold my beliefs.

You imaginary Acirema seems to be Trump Lite.  Don’t save lives by fighting Covid.  Push racism.  Exploit the government for personal gain.  Exploit the environment to destruction.  Let the bridges fall.  In short, no change, stay the same, do not solve the problem.  I realize you aren’t with Trump all the way, but I am more concerned with the rural red mindset than your imaginary Acirema.

Last week, Trump stated that the American health care system was killing whites by denying them medical care.  This week there was a Neo Nazi protest against a hospital generally (Boston’s Brigham and Woman’s) and two doctors in particular.  You see, part of our legacy medical system is moving white patients to critical heart care if they needed it, but to leave minorities in the cheaper and less effective general care.  The two doctors proved the trend, that it was a lethal trend, and are working towards equality in medical care.  This was converted in the minds of Trump and the Neo Nazis from a historical prejudice against minorities to a current prejudice against whites.  Working towards equality in healthcare provoked outrage.

And the Neo Nazis ‘fought’ this trend by protest, by non violence.  Even the Neo Nazis have seen the change.  Oh, the ‘Heil Hitler’ salutes have remained the same.  The racism remains the same. The logic remains twisted.  But they recognized the tactics used reflect the Information Age.  Even the Neo Nazi are still using the protest and legislation non violent methods.

This is apt to remain true after they lock Trump up.

[pbrower2a]

(02-03-2022, 02:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-02-2022, 06:45 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-02-2022, 01:11 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, the armies are already aligned and the battle lines have already been drawn and the Blue youth that show up out of pure self interest are going to find Themselves being turned against each other and slaughtered. The Blue community seems pretty insular and dogmatic these days don't you think. I suppose that you don't think or view it that way since it's very obvious to everyone else that you're one of Them. Sorry dude, I wish I was a better writer than a businessman. It's the only thing that's  keeping you in the game at this point.

Again, the no change, stay the same, no solve the problem side has always lost in a crisis.  I don't know why you expect things to be different this time.

Where did you get the impression that I expect things to be different this time? Unlike you, I don't expect things to be different this time. I expect to see some kind of conflict to occur that results in human casualties and loss of life. So far, the Democrat's in charge seem to be hell bent on setting the stage for such a conflict to occur within the United States. Why here? I guess the Northern Democrats aka Northern Aristocracy of today aren't any wiser and are as arrogant as the Southern Democrats aka Southern Aristocracy were prior to the last American civil war.

Nutcases attacking Houses of Worship have already taken lives. Even your part of America on the whole sees such appalling. There could well be serial killers like Ted "Unabom" Kaczynski and Joseph Paul Franklin moving about exercising what they consider their grim conclusions about what is good and what is evil. In this Crisis we are surely long past the early phase in which a Bloody Kansas is possible. OK, maybe that is premature; my state (Michigan) has been Ground Zero for the struggle between freedom and fascism. People will be losing their freedom for plotting to kidnap the Governor.

We on the Obama-style Left have been adopting conservative virtues while your side sloughs them off. My side believes in the rule of law, law and order, the validity of learning and expertise, the need for rewards based on merit, the utility of tradition as a fallback when radical change fails, and disdain for rogues. Much of this reflects the values of America's model minorities who have often refused to assimilate the basest aspects of American life. Surely you have seen my maps comparing Obama and Eisenhower elections. Ike and Obama have shown many of the same virtues. Obama did not get as many electoral votes or as large a share of the popular vote, probably because Obama could never win over the farm-and-ranch or mining interests. 

Once the 1T is truly underway we will see changes in educational patterns, with parental care following those patterns if parents don't want their children left behind. Rational thought, moral virtues, sobriety, initiative, enterprise, and integrity will be cherished. We will recognize diversity as richness instead of division, and we will have no tolerance for extremist ideologies and violence.  

Quote:What prompted you (Bob Butler)  to vote for Hoover and reinstate the 3T status quo this time? Did someone trick you into believing that Bumbling Biden was equivalent to FDR or something? Was it years of Democratic related indoctrination and propaganda or what? You're the one who made the big mistake so I'll leave it to you to figure it out as your dealing with rising costs, financial losses and all kinds of nasty problems that are mainly Democratic related or largely caused by Democrats during the 4T.

I can't speak for Bob, but you might as well ask the same question of me, although without the loaded language. Most of us had our misgivings about Joe Biden due to his age. Those are far less than the well-documented faults of Donald Trump, a prime example of pathological narcissism. Trump is an odd combination of senescence and immaturity. He is intellectually lazy, and he has a grave misconception that the Presidency is a sort of dictatorship. We get a Lincoln or FDR when Congress recognizes to give nearly-dictatorial powers to the President in the face of economic meltdowns and dangerous wars. Otherwise the Presidency is more persuasion than command. 

Donald Trump bungled the response to the plague of COVID-19, and that plague has caused severe disruptions in a free-enterprise economy that has yet to fully adjust. One million deaths, mostly of people in the workforce, cannot fail to cause dislocations -- especially if the human losses are disproportionately in certain job categories. Such naturally leads to inflation, with Big Business charging what the traffic will bear only to create gluts in response to the higher prices -- after which Big Business must cut prices. 

COVID-19 is expensive to treat in severe cases; respirators are not cheap. Many who get to that stage who do not die will be crippled physically and mentally. People will come out of it stupider (with ill effects upon the economy), with diabetes or organ damage. Some who survive will be obliged to sell their houses for fire-sale prices to meet costs of medical treatment or of unexpected funerals. 

President Biden has not resorted to wage-and-price controls which would make things worse by trying to maintain an economic reality that no longer exists. The price system will sort things out. It may decide that the neoliberal solution to inflation that depends upon working multitudes hard for pittances that allow nothing more than bare survival (people work, but do not participate in the prosperity) has lost its validity. One of the casualties of COVID-19 is price stability. A prime example; I went to Dollar Tree, which used to claim that most things are to sell for one dollar. Now it is $1.25 for most of what used to sell for a dollar.

[David Horn]

(02-03-2022, 06:21 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-02-2022, 02:00 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It is a battle FOR America, not a battle WITH America.

Dude, a battle FOR America that doesn't involve a battle WITH America is meaningless.

Clarification: are you suggesting that your side is actively engaged in treason?  That's what a battle WITH AMerica entails, you know.

[David Horn]

(02-03-2022, 07:58 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-03-2022, 02:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Where did you get the impression that I expect things to be different this time? Unlike you, I don't expect things to be different this time. I expect to see some kind of conflict to occur that results in human casualties and loss of life. So far, the Democrat's in charge seem to be hell bent on setting the stage for such a conflict to occur within the United States. Why here? I guess the Northern Democrats aka Northern Aristocracy of today aren't any wiser and are as arrogant as the Southern Democrats aka Southern Aristocracy were prior to the last American civil war.

One difference is that you expect overt violence.  There is a difference between January Sixth and Gettysburg.  In the Information Age - as the suffragettes, Gandhi, and MLK demonstrated - it is possible in a democracy to change the culture without violence.  Thus far, this crisis is reflecting the change.  Unlike you, I do not have to ignore history to hold my beliefs.

You imaginary Acirema seems to be Trump Lite.  Don’t save lives by fighting Covid.  Push racism.  Exploit the government for personal gain.  Exploit the environment to destruction.  Let the bridges fall.  In short, no change, stay the same, do not solve the problem.  I realize you aren’t with Trump all the way, but I am more concerned with the rural red mindset than your imaginary Acirema.

Last week, Trump stated that the American health care system was killing whites by denying them medical care.  This week there was a Neo Nazi protest against a hospital generally (Boston’s Brigham and Woman’s) and two doctors in particular.  You see, part of our legacy medical system is moving white patients to critical heart care if they needed it, but to leave minorities in the cheaper and less effective general care.  The two doctors proved the trend, that it was a lethal trend, and are working towards equality in medical care.  This was converted in the minds of Trump and the Neo Nazis from a historical prejudice against minorities to a current prejudice against whites.  Working towards equality in healthcare provoked outrage.

And the Neo Nazis ‘fought’ this trend by protest, by non violence.  Even the Neo Nazis have seen the change.  Oh, the ‘Heil Hitler’ salutes have remained the same.  The racism remains the same. The logic remains twisted.  But they recognized the tactics used reflect the Information Age.  Even the Neo Nazi are still using the protest and legislation non violent methods.

This is apt to remain true after they lock Trump up.

I agree fully, but it's so much wind in the ears of the New Right.  We have a new governor making the same kinds of claims and taking extra-legal actions in response.  So far, he's getting away with it, and I suspect that a large percentage of the Virginia populace thinks that's perfect.  What hasn't happened yet is a counter activism that can be fully pragmatic and effective if not totally ruthless.  Instead, the SJWs continue to produce fodder for the right.  

Not good.

[Eric the Green]

(02-03-2022, 06:21 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-02-2022, 02:00 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It is a battle FOR America, not a battle WITH America.

Dude, a battle FOR America that doesn't involve  a battle WITH America is meaningless.

It is a battle between two conceptions of America: the status quo or constructive change.

It is always amazing to me that you say the northern Democrats are the aristocracy, when it is your policies that explicitly and deliberately have created today's aristocracy aka the oligarchy. You cannot get or refuse to get this. If you want more class equality and less aristocracy, then you have to support Democratic Party policies and not Republican ones.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-03-2022, 12:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It is always amazing to me that you say the northern Democrats are the aristocracy, when it is your policies that explicitly and deliberately have created today's aristocracy aka the oligarchy. You cannot get or refuse to get this. If you want more class equality and less aristocracy, then you have to support Democratic Party policies and not Republican ones.

Classic's Acirema has his imaginary following not following elites and not being prejudiced. That is to be preferred to what the rural Trump Republicans actually believe and represent, but hasn't much to do with reality.

[Eric the Green]

(02-03-2022, 01:22 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-03-2022, 12:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It is always amazing to me that you say the northern Democrats are the aristocracy, when it is your policies that explicitly and deliberately have created today's aristocracy aka the oligarchy. You cannot get or refuse to get this. If you want more class equality and less aristocracy, then you have to support Democratic Party policies and not Republican ones.

Classic's Acirema has his imaginary following not following elites and not being prejudiced.  That is to be preferred to what the rural Trump Republicans actually believe and represent, but hasn't much to do with reality.

You give Classic more credit than I do, since I don't see a difference between him and the rural Trump Republicans. Not all these Trump Republicans actually live in rural America.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-02-2022, 06:28 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We typically have an alternation of Party dominance because one of the Parties once in power either starts to fail or goes stale. We had a succession of three two-term Presidents (Clinton, Dubya, Obama) followed by a President from the other Party. Trump came close to getting re-elected despite an execrable record as President, which demonstrates the usual effectiveness of incumbency. The last one-term President before Trump, the elder Bush was basically an echo of the politically-successful Reagan. It took three terms for the Reagan-Bush Presidency to go stale.

Had President Trump been a more effective President, then he would have won re-election. He did enough to cause enough voters (by about one million nationwide, which demonstrates the distortion that the Electoral College creates) to turn against him. Trump claims to have lost because of 'late' votes. No, he lost because of votes counted late, and that the votes were counted late in Atlanta, Detroit, Las Vegas, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Pittsburgh does not so much reflect votes coming in late as it does the delay in completing the count. Votes counted the next day count no less than those that can be counted and tallied within a few minutes after the precinct (with a small population) closes.

Republicans have yet to figure why they fare so poorly in winning certain demographics. When they finally respond appropriately they will win big again.

PB, you elected the worst president that the majority of the country has seen during its lifetime. That's just Us, the majority of modern day adults. He's also viewed as being the worst President in Modern Time by a lot of Modern Day Exports. You can say whatever you want about Trump at this point. It's not going to help the cause or matter to most to most voters as long as Biden remains in office. I think you would have been better off electing Gumby at this point.

I've told you why they tend to fare poorly with certain demographics. If I know the reason why, they know the reason why too. The Democratic party has complete control over certain demographics. It's not like it's a secret. You are a prime example of the control that they have over certain demographics these days. In short, the Republicans aren't playing the same game as the Democrats are playing these days.

[pbrower2a]

(02-03-2022, 06:21 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-02-2022, 02:00 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It is a battle FOR America, not a battle WITH America.

Dude, a battle FOR America that doesn't involve  a battle WITH America is meaningless.

Dude, as you do not have the excuse of being a non-native speaker of English, you have no excuse for such bungling of pronouns. (Pronouns are the trickiest words in foreign languages).

When someone does a horrible deed against one set of Americans (let us say people mowing down members of synagogues or historically-black churches, or for that matter the terrorists who turned commercial jetliners into weapons of mass destruction) one does it against us all. Dylann Roof (who lethally mowed down ten black people in a Bible study in Charleston, South Carolina and killed nine) is a tragedy, but he is also a traitor. He may end up paying with his life.  

I recognize Trump supporters all over America as no less American than I. Of course their interpretation of what constitutes America far narrower than mine. I also think that they are wrong in their assessment of Donald Trump. Usually the partisan divide is not so stark at that, but Trump's supporters have made such so. 

Americans have united against those who have done grave wrong to Americans, whether on 12/7/1941, 9/11/2001. or 1/6/2001. With the latter it is slower because the Bad Guys are Americans who have an ideological constituency. Some people want America to go from being an Empire of Liberty to just another evil empire that the world will little mourn upon its passing.

[pbrower2a]

(02-03-2022, 02:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-02-2022, 06:28 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We typically have an alternation of Party dominance because one of the Parties once in power either starts to fail or goes stale. We had a succession of three two-term Presidents (Clinton, Dubya, Obama) followed by a President from the other Party. Trump came close to getting re-elected despite an execrable record as President, which demonstrates the usual effectiveness of incumbency. The last one-term President before Trump, the elder Bush was basically an echo of the politically-successful Reagan. It took three terms for the Reagan-Bush Presidency to go stale.

Had President Trump been a more effective President, then he would have won re-election. He did enough to cause enough voters (by about one million nationwide, which demonstrates the distortion that the Electoral College creates) to turn against him. Trump claims to have lost because of 'late' votes. No, he lost because of votes counted late, and that the votes were counted late in Atlanta, Detroit, Las Vegas, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Pittsburgh does not so much reflect votes coming in late as it does the delay in completing the count. Votes counted the next day count no less than those that can be counted and tallied within a few minutes after the precinct (with a small population) closes.

Republicans have yet to figure why they fare so poorly in winning certain demographics. When they finally respond appropriately they will win big again.

PB, you elected the worst president that the majority of the country has seen during its lifetime. That's just Us (the majority of modern day adults). He's also commonly viewed as being the worst President in Modern Time by most experts these days. You can say whatever you want about Trump because it's not going to help or matter to most at this as long as Biden is in office. BTW, Harris ain't going to fair an better than him. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up like Marie Antoinette. Yes, that's right, America may decide to place her on ignore and leave her for the mob to get rid of these days.

It is far too early to evaluate President Biden,  as he has entered the Presidency in the wake of a Putsch intended to prevent him from becoming Presidency and the perverse conduct of Donald Trump as President. Despotic tendencies, official corruption, erratic deeds, denial of scientific expertise, and suspect foreign policy give Trump no precedent. To be worse one would have to bring America to the brink of civil war, start a war that ends with the defeat of the USA that leads to a large surrender of territory or its dissolution, or foments a hostile revolution that overthrows the system. Joe Biden becomes President with three characteristics in common with James Buchanan: being long past prime for leadership, having a long time of public service, and being from Pennsylvania. The third is an obvious irrelevancy. This said, Joe Biden has shown his first priority as undoing the damage that Trump has done. Such may not be completed in President Biden's lifetime. Major destruction often comes suddenly with the repair taking far less time than the incident of destruction. 

I saw a physical case of such two days ago. An inattentive driver rushed into my lane because I had slowed down as I saw a UPS truck stopped to make a delivery. The van that that poor fellow had driven slammed into the UPS truck. I stopped, pulled to the side of the street, and called 911. The UPS truck seemed to take little damage, but the van endured extensive damage, including  the loss of the front passenger-side wheel and leakage from the engine compartment. In less than a second came damage to the vehicle that would surely take more than a week to repair.  Donald Trump is to the Presidency what that vehicle damage is to that van. I had slowed down to accommodate the UPS truck. Had I been speeding I would have hit the truck.

Well, Trump was defeated, fair and square, in a re-election bid. In case that you have awakened from thirteen months of coma you could be excused for thinking that the current president is the worst. Otherwise here is an assessment by historians.         


I

Quote:In compiling its 10 Worst Presidents rankings, U.S. News averaged presidents' scores from three separate metrics: C-SPAN's 2021 Presidential Historians Survey, Siena College's Presidential Expert Poll and the Presidential Greatness Rankings conducted by professors at the University of Houston and Boise State University.

Those narrowly missing the cut were Presidents Benjamin Harrison and Chester A. Arthur, who ranked 11th- and 12th-worst, respectively among the nation's 45 former commanders in chiefs. President George W. Bush, who had previously ranked 11th-worst in the last iterations of the U.S. News rankings, was remembered more fondly by recent presidential surveys. He ranked 15th-worst, just ahead of James A. Garfield and Martin Van Buren.
U.S. News for the first time included President Donald Trump, as his term has ended, who is the second-worst president overall, according to U.S. News’ most recent methodology.


PRESIDENT USN RANK C-SPAN (2021)  SIENA COLLEGE'S PRESIDENTIAL EXPERT POLL (2018) PRESIDENTIAL GREATNESS SURVEY (2018)
James Buchanan 1 1 2 2
Donald Trump 2 3 3 1
Andrew Johnson 3 2 1 5
Franklin Pierce 4 3 5 4
William Henry Harrison 5 5 6 3
Warren G. Harding 6 8 4 6
John Tyler 7 5 8 8
Millard Fillmore 7 7 7 7
Herbert Hoover 9 9 9 9
Zachary Taylor 10 10 15 10
Benjamin Harrison 11 13  10 13
Chester A. Arthur 12 15 11 14
Rutherford B. Hayes 13 12 13 16
Richard M. Nixon 14 14 16 12
George W. Bush 15 16 12 15
James A. Garfield 16 18 17 11
Martin Van Buren  17 11 20 18
Calvin Coolidge 18 21 14 17
Gerald Ford 19 17 18 20
Jimmy Carter 20 18 19 19
Grover Cleveland 21 20 22 21
William Howard Taft 22 22 23 23
Ulysses S. Grant 23 25 21 24
George H.W. Bush 24 24 24 28
John Quincy Adams 25 28 27 22
Andrew Jackson 26 23 26 30
William McKinley  27 31 25 26
James K. Polk 28 27 33 25
Bill Clinton 29 26 30 32
John Adams 30 30 31 31
James Monroe 31 33 37 27
Lyndon B. Johnson 32 34 29 35
Barack Obama 33 35 28 37
Woodrow Wilson 33 32 34 34
James Madison  33 29 38 33
John F. Kennedy  36 37 35 29
Ronald Reagan  37 36 32 36
Harry S. Truman 38 39 36 39
Dwight D. Eisenhower 39 40 39 38
Thomas Jefferson 40 38 40 40
Theodore Roosevelt 41 41 41 41
Franklin D. Roosevelt 42 42 43 42
Abraham Lincoln 43 44 42 44
George Washington 43 43 44 43


Updated on July 6, 2021: This article has been updated.

https://www.usnews.com/news/special-repo...presidents

OK -- Washington defined the Presidency. Lincoln saved the Union. FDR saved American capitalism and in turn (with Churchill)  Western Christian Civilization. For good reason the best five Presidents are typically "Mount Rushmore and FDR". 6th to 12th range from Eisenhower to Obama, and you know how often I compare Obama and Ike.  

Do I agree with these assessments? Not entirely. I doubt that Reagan will stay so high should his economic philosophy be repudiated and I see the generational cycle leading away from his continuing lionization. I would rather not rate William Henry Harrison because he was not President long enough to have any lasting influence. Know well that Jackson was once largely rated one of the greatest Presidents, but his reputation has slid into mediocrity. The expansion of slavery would lead to the American Civil War, and the Trail of Tears doesn't look so great anymore.  Toward the bottom end are several Presidents, mostly from the run-up to the American Civil War who acquiesced with slave-holding interests until Abraham Lincoln took over. Also near the bottom are Andrew Johnson, who bungled Reconstruction; Warren G. Harding, whose personal corruption would take nearly a century to surpass; and Herbert Hoover, who might have saved the world much grief had he backed the banks. Although I cannot put all the blame for the Stock Market Crash of 1929 I can fault him for the severity of the Depression.  Note well that the harshness of the economic meltdown led to the rise of Satan Incarnate in Germany.   

Trump put American democracy at grave risk for his bloated ego, and he fostered a  mass movement that shows contempt for the institutions that make democracy possible. He is beyond forgiveness.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-03-2022, 04:19 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: https://www.usnews.com/news/special-repo...presidents

OK -- Washington defined the Presidency. Lincoln saved the Union. FDR saved American capitalism and in turn (with Churchill)  Western Christian Civilization. For good reason the best five Presidents are typically "Mount Rushmore and FDR". 6th to 12th range from Eisenhower to Obama, and you know how often I compare Obama and Ike.  

I note that the first three best presidents on that list were crisis presidents - Washington, Lincoln and FDR.  They might have been controversial in their times, but history gave them credit for solving the great problems of their time and gave them a superb place in the history books.  Biden and Harris are still in the controversial phase.  With the great problems of the crisis still up in the air, no way will they get the blessing of a history that hasn't resolved yet.  I do half expect it will eventually happen.  The problems will eventually be solved.  Simplifying writing the history books requires giving absurd credit to somebody.

But clearly not yet.