America is a sick society

[Eric the Green]

America is a sick society.

That's what we knew back in the sixties, and said so. It's what we've forgotten today, amid all the "God Bless America" super-patriot reactionary propaganda.

Any society that produces Dylan Roof is a sick society.

Any society that thinks a sick behavior like capitalism is not a problem but a "solution" is a sick society.

It needs help; it needs a cure. It is possible to cure it, but it has been a long-standing illness, probably inherent and genetic in nature, and it will take a long time to cure.

CHARLESTON, S.C. — Dylann S. Roof, a self-radicalized young white supremacist who killed nine black parishioners last year when he opened fire during a long-planned assault on Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, was found guilty by a federal jury here on Thursday.

The jury convicted Mr. Roof of nine counts of hate crimes resulting in death, three counts of hate crimes involving an attempt to kill (there were three survivors), nine counts of obstructing the exercise of religion resulting in death, three counts of that charge with an attempt to kill, and nine counts of using a firearm to commit murder during a crime of violence.


Mr. Roof, 22, stood, his hands at his side and his face emotionless, as a clerk read the verdict aloud in court. Two deputy United States marshals stood behind Mr. Roof, whose lawyers also stood nearby.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/15/us/dyl...trial.html

[Anthony '58]

Sarkar's theory is looking more accurate than ever.

A new warrior age will implant within ten years. It will transcend the Karl Marx vs. Ayn Rand dichotomy - but the neocons will be the intellectuals who "ably assist" the warriors, in Dr. Ravi Batra's words. And since, as its name suggests, there will be frequent if not constant wars, the "war on terror" will indeed seem endless (think of it as a latter-day series of Crusades) - and the warrior age's first saeculum's 4T (it will span two saecula overall), will be extremely similar to that of Britain's Armada War against Spain.

[pbrower2a]

Let's remember: in this sordid case, there were very good people -- the black people that Dylann Roof killed or injured. Some white Americans should ask themselves whether they want to be more like Dylann Roof or like the good people that he killed or injured. If we were all more like the victims then maybe we would not have the violent, murderous racism that erupted in a church.

Dylann Roof is  really sick. There's no question of that. The cure would have been for him to identify with those upstanding black people. He may have been on a possible Saul-to-Paul journey... maybe that scared him. (As Saul he persecuted Jesus' followers; as Paul he became for all practical purposes the "Thirteenth Apostle").  

The 'Black Church' that Dylann Roof attacked was doing everything possible to lead him to a recognition that black people could be good, decent people. I can imagine a programmed racist finding the people that he hates for their 'racial' difference and discovering that they really are decent people, competent and loving. I could imagine a happy ending in which Dylann Roof abandons his racism after losing his fear, falls in love with a black woman, marries her, and has beautiful mixed-race children in a very Christian family. One reads the revelation in Ebony Magazine as an uplifting story of how love can overpower hate. Maybe that has happened somewhere else.  

Instead he did the worst thing possible. Yes, we should all be shocked. But we cannot blame Donald Trump for the atrocity. He was not then President. Hate kills. Hate did not need Donald Trump to make a murderous racist out of Dylann Trump.

Donald Trump is a very different matter.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-15-2016, 05:59 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: We've evolved beyond things from the last Millennium like Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, etc. However, neither our institutions nor the societal hive mind are facing this reality. It will probably take a near-death experience of humanity to make people hit rock bottom and accept this reality. Only then is it likely that the lizard brain remnant that hamstrings the masses will allow the hive mind to accept a more evolved format.

We have indeed evolved. A century plus back, after the lynching, entire towns would line up to have group photos taken centered around the still dangling corpse. Today, the murderers for the most part act alone, get captured, tried and convicted. As I understand it, 'To Kill a Mockingbird' reflected accurately how biased things used to be.

Today, Capitalism and Fascism are very rare in their full fledge forms, and a good number of European nations are quite content with socialist governments using tax money to enhance their people's life styles. The United States public doesn't seem ready for that.

And I don't think I'm outlandish or radical when I suggest that capitalist elites are wielding too much influence for the country's good. The Blue and Red bases are both upset at the establishment. It's just that the electoral process isn't generating good alternatives.

And, yes, it takes a rock bottom experience to make people change their values in mass, for an entire culture to transform. How large a bottom is bottom? I generally use Atlanta 1864 and Berlin 1945 as good illustrations. People are stubborn in clinging to values. Their old values have to fail big time.

I'm would not be surprised by a Trump disaster, but I'm not sure he will get us to rock bottom with a great enough impact velocity.

[Eric the Green]

Except as I pointed out before, Atlanta 1864 did not change anyone's values in Dixie.

[Eric the Green]

(12-16-2016, 10:30 AM)Anthony Wrote: Sarkar's theory is looking more accurate than ever.

A new warrior age will implant within ten years.  It will transcend the Karl Marx vs. Ayn Rand dichotomy - but the neocons will be the intellectuals who "ably assist" the warriors, in Dr. Ravi Batra's words.  And since, as its name suggests, there will be frequent if not constant wars, the "war on terror" will indeed seem endless (think of it as a latter-day series of Crusades) - and the warrior age's first saeculum's 4T (it will span two saecula overall), will be extremely similar to that of Britain's Armada War against Spain.

My theory was the peace movement was implanted in humanity by the Awakening and the New Revolution cycle beginning in the sixties. But I admit the outlook for this is not looking too bright right now. I have learned not to be swayed from long-term predictions by short term conditions, however.

[Eric the Green]

(12-15-2016, 05:59 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(12-15-2016, 04:29 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: America is a sick society.

That's what we knew back in the sixties, and said so. It's what we've forgotten today, amid all the "God Bless America" super-patriot reactionary propaganda.

Any society that produces Dylan Roof is a sick society.

Any society that thinks a sick behavior like capitalism is not a problem but a "solution" is a sick society.

It needs help; it needs a cure. It is possible to cure it, but it has been a long-standing illness, probably inherent and genetic in nature, and it will take a long time to cure.

CHARLESTON, S.C. — Dylann S. Roof, a self-radicalized young white supremacist who killed nine black parishioners last year when he opened fire during a long-planned assault on Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, was found guilty by a federal jury here on Thursday.

The jury convicted Mr. Roof of nine counts of hate crimes resulting in death, three counts of hate crimes involving an attempt to kill (there were three survivors), nine counts of obstructing the exercise of religion resulting in death, three counts of that charge with an attempt to kill, and nine counts of using a firearm to commit murder during a crime of violence.


Mr. Roof, 22, stood, his hands at his side and his face emotionless, as a clerk read the verdict aloud in court. Two deputy United States marshals stood behind Mr. Roof, whose lawyers also stood nearby.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/15/us/dyl...trial.html

We've evolved beyond things from the last Millennium like Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, etc. However, neither our institutions nor the societal hive mind are facing this reality. It will probably take a near-death experience of humanity to make people hit rock bottom and accept this reality. Only then is it likely that the lizard brain remnant that hamstrings the masses will allow the hive mind to accept a more evolved format.

I do agree.

[Eric the Green]

(12-16-2016, 11:41 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Let's remember: in this sordid case, there were very good people -- the black people that Dylann Roof killed or injured. Some white Americans should ask themselves whether they want to be more like Dylann Roof or like the good people that he killed or injured. If we were all more like the victims then maybe we would not have the violent, murderous racism that erupted in a church.  

Dylann Roof is  really sick. There's no question of that. The cure would have been for him to identify with those upstanding black people. He may have been on a possible Saul-to-Paul journey... maybe that scared him. (As Saul he persecuted Jesus' followers; as Paul he became for all practical purposes the "Thirteenth Apostle").  

The 'Black Church' that Dylann Roof attacked was doing everything possible to lead him to a recognition that black people could be good, decent people. I can imagine a programmed racist finding the people that he hates for their 'racial' difference and discovering that they really are decent people, competent and loving. I could imagine a happy ending in which Dylann Roof abandons his racism after losing his fear, falls in love with a black woman, marries her, and has beautiful mixed-race children in a very Christian family. One reads the revelation in Ebony Magazine as an uplifting story of how love can overpower hate. Maybe that has happened somewhere else.  

Instead he did the worst thing possible. Yes, we should all be shocked. But we cannot blame Donald Trump for the atrocity. He was not then President. Hate kills. Hate did not need Donald Trump to make a murderous racist out of Dylann (Roof).

Donald Trump is a very different matter.

Both are symptoms of the same disease, which is only one aspect of America's.

[David Horn]

(12-16-2016, 06:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-15-2016, 05:59 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: We've evolved beyond things from the last Millennium like Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, etc. However, neither our institutions nor the societal hive mind are facing this reality. It will probably take a near-death experience of humanity to make people hit rock bottom and accept this reality. Only then is it likely that the lizard brain remnant that hamstrings the masses will allow the hive mind to accept a more evolved format.

We have indeed evolved.  A century plus back, after the lynching, entire towns would line up to have group photos taken centered around the still dangling corpse.  Today, the murderers for the most part act alone, get captured, tried and convicted.  As I understand it, 'To Kill a Mockingbird' reflected accurately how biased things used to be.

Today, Capitalism and Fascism are very rare in their full fledge forms, and a good number of European nations are quite content with socialist governments using tax money to enhance their people's life styles.  The United States public doesn't seem ready for that.

And I don't think I'm outlandish or radical when I suggest that capitalist elites are wielding too much influence for the country's good.  The Blue and Red bases are both upset at the establishment.  It's just that the electoral process isn't generating good alternatives.

And, yes, it takes a rock bottom experience to make people change their values in mass, for an entire culture to transform.  How large a bottom is bottom?  I generally use Atlanta 1864 and Berlin 1945 as good illustrations.  People are stubborn in clinging to values.  Their old values have to fail big time.

I'm would not be surprised by a Trump disaster, but I'm not sure he will get us to rock bottom with a great enough impact velocity.

Trump isn't planning on victory; he gains more from low level chaos.  Does anyone honestly believe he's in this for any other reason than personal aggrandizement?  His model is Putin, and Putin is likely the wealthiest man on earth.  Trump is impressed.

[Odin]

Technology is advancing too quickly for people to culturally adapt. A big reason for the angst in rural America and in the Rust Belt is people simply being unable to comprehend automation and it's ultimate end-game. Americans are raised to believe that one must earn one's money through hard work, and that ever since WW2 we have been raised to expect a good-paying job to be our birthright, even for those people who are not capable of higher education.

At the same time, a lot of these people are stuck where they are, their wealth is tied up in their houses and good luck trying to sell a house in a small rust belt town, nobody want to move to those places, which makes all the talking points about how they should just move downright tone-deaf and just increases the resentment against the "educated elites".

Then mix this together with people having chronic pain as a result of a lifetime of blue collar work, which then leads these people to end up addicted to opioid painkillers.

[pbrower2a]

(12-17-2016, 07:45 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-16-2016, 06:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-15-2016, 05:59 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: We've evolved beyond things from the last Millennium like Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, etc. However, neither our institutions nor the societal hive mind are facing this reality. It will probably take a near-death experience of humanity to make people hit rock bottom and accept this reality. Only then is it likely that the lizard brain remnant that hamstrings the masses will allow the hive mind to accept a more evolved format.

We have indeed evolved.  A century plus back, after the lynching, entire towns would line up to have group photos taken centered around the still dangling corpse.  Today, the murderers for the most part act alone, get captured, tried and convicted.  As I understand it, 'To Kill a Mockingbird' reflected accurately how biased things used to be.

Today, Capitalism and Fascism are very rare in their full fledge forms, and a good number of European nations are quite content with socialist governments using tax money to enhance their people's life styles.  The United States public doesn't seem ready for that.

And I don't think I'm outlandish or radical when I suggest that capitalist elites are wielding too much influence for the country's good.  The Blue and Red bases are both upset at the establishment.  It's just that the electoral process isn't generating good alternatives.

And, yes, it takes a rock bottom experience to make people change their values in mass, for an entire culture to transform.  How large a bottom is bottom?  I generally use Atlanta 1864 and Berlin 1945 as good illustrations.  People are stubborn in clinging to values.  Their old values have to fail big time.

I'm would not be surprised by a Trump disaster, but I'm not sure he will get us to rock bottom with a great enough impact velocity.

Trump isn't planning on victory; he gains more from low level chaos.  Does anyone honestly believe he's in this for any other reason than personal aggrandizement?  His model is Putin, and Putin is likely the wealthiest man on earth.  Trump is impressed.

He's a kleptocrat at heart -- if you want to call it a heart. He wants what goes with kleptocracy -- seeing his name everywhere, like the "Trump Turnpike System" which used to be freeways but from which he gets a cut of the tolls as a benefit from owning the naming right.

I remember seeing a description of Benito Mussolini as a pure expression of selfishness with delusions of grandeur... does this sound familiar? Anyone who gets in his way can expect to pay a price.

[pbrower2a]

(12-17-2016, 10:28 AM)Odin Wrote: Technology is advancing too quickly for people to culturally adapt. A big reason for the angst in rural America and in the Rust Belt is people simply being unable to comprehend automation and it's ultimate end-game. Americans are raised to believe that one must earn one's money through hard work, and that ever since WW2 we have been raised to expect a good-paying job to be our birthright, even for those people who are not capable of higher education.

Technological progress has usually gone hand-in-hand with improvement in living standards. But are those standards even relevant anymore? Most of us who are or have been middle-class have more stuff than we need. Do you have more than 100 discs of music and 100 videos? More than 100 books? You are a hoarder. That was a good business for churning a profit for some Big Business.

Quote:At the same time, a lot of these people are stuck where they are, their wealth is tied up in their houses and good luck trying to sell a house in a small rust belt town, nobody want to move to those places, which makes all the talking points about how they should just move downright tone-deaf and just increases the resentment against the "educated elites".

Such people are now house-poor... and they may fear losing their houses to taxes and the nursing home.

The fault with most small towns is that one must be tied to them from childhood to not feel alien in them. Human relations can be very complex in small towns as they could be in peasant villages. Because many people in small towns are descended from peasants many still think like peasants as would now be impossible in the Old Country.

Donald Trump has done well in exploiting mass resentment against intellectual elites who don't appreciate meat loaf at some restaurant that offers a simulacrum of a farm house, who consider reality TV a waste of time, consider NASCAR boring, enjoy reading but  have no use for the schlock penned as right-wing guides to intellectual emptiness, and may like classical music. He acts like someone who got rich the only way that many working people can -- winning the Super-Duper Megabucks Lottery. Such people are gullible enough to fall for the euphemism 'comfort food' -- bland and unimaginative fare dense in calories and in heaping quantities.

But those intellectual 'elites' are only middle-class, and they hold lotteries in disdain because they understand the statistics. 

Quote:Then mix this together with people having chronic pain as a result of a lifetime of blue collar work, which then leads these people to end up addicted to opioid painkillers.

Or having diabetes or being grotesquely obese (and effectively handicapped) because they love their sweets and fats too much to judge what those sweets and fats can do to them.

Something amazing -- I have been to art museums, auto museums, historical museums, air and space museums, science museums... and I notice the absence of certain types of people in all of them. Grotesquely-obese people.  Maybe obesity correlates to a lack of curiosity. It's not that museums don't accommodate the handicapped well; I see people in wheelchairs, but not grotesquely-obese people in wheelchairs. Get grotesquely-obese and you will get handicapped. (Smokers? I can think of no museums that are smoker-friendly, but that also applies to most restaurants).

[pbrower2a]

Addendum: I just asked someone who recently visited the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame whether he saw any grotesquely-obese people. He saw none.

Having my own struggles with weight, I have found some tips on weight-control by looking into the grocery baskets of people grotesquely overweight for advice on what to avoid. Basically, it is negative counsel from others; failures. It is safe to say that their food choices show a lack of imagination. I could never eat as they do; it would simply be too dull.

[tg63]

(12-17-2016, 10:28 AM)Odin Wrote: Technology is advancing too quickly for people to culturally adapt. A big reason for the angst in rural America and in the Rust Belt is people simply being unable to comprehend automation and it's ultimate end-game. Americans are raised to believe that one must earn one's money through hard work, and that ever since WW2 we have been raised to expect a good-paying job to be our birthright, even for those people who are not capable of higher education.

At the same time, a lot of these people are stuck where they are, their wealth is tied up in their houses and good luck trying to sell a house in a small rust belt town, nobody want to move to those places, which makes all the talking points about how they should just move downright tone-deaf and just increases the resentment against the "educated elites".

Then mix this together with people having chronic pain as a result of a lifetime of blue collar work, which then leads these people to end up addicted to opioid painkillers.

Good post.  Moving for these folks would mean essentially walking away with nothing.  It certainly highlights the distance between those folks & the ones buying Americano mistos every morning at the starbucks drivethru.

My mother grew up on a small-medium sized farm in central Canada with 5 siblings.  Eventually all the kids went to the city for work.  When their dad could no longer run the farm he moved to the city with one of his kids.  They didn't sell the farm as it was virtually worthless. They just stopped paying taxes & the municipality took it over.  They bulldozed the small house & it sits as vacant land today.  I recently looked at it on google maps, it's just random bushlands.

Parts of downtown Detroit are similar now.  I suspect in another few decades there will be wide swathes of neighborhoods across the midwest that look similar.

Adaptation will have winners & losers. But everyone gets to vote.

[pbrower2a]

(12-19-2016, 10:51 AM)tg63 Wrote:

(12-17-2016, 10:28 AM)Odin Wrote: Technology is advancing too quickly for people to culturally adapt. A big reason for the angst in rural America and in the Rust Belt is people simply being unable to comprehend automation and it's ultimate end-game. Americans are raised to believe that one must earn one's money through hard work, and that ever since WW2 we have been raised to expect a good-paying job to be our birthright, even for those people who are not capable of higher education.

At the same time, a lot of these people are stuck where they are, their wealth is tied up in their houses and good luck trying to sell a house in a small rust belt town, nobody want to move to those places, which makes all the talking points about how they should just move downright tone-deaf and just increases the resentment against the "educated elites".

Then mix this together with people having chronic pain as a result of a lifetime of blue collar work, which then leads these people to end up addicted to opioid painkillers.

My mother grew up on a small-medium sized farm in central Canada with 5 siblings.  Eventually all the kids went to the city for work.  When their dad could no longer run the farm he moved to the city with one of his kids.  They didn't sell the farm as it was virtually worthless. They just stopped paying taxes & the municipality took it over.  They bulldozed the small house & it sits as vacant land today.  I recently looked at it on google maps, it's just random bushlands.

Much the same is about to happen in America. My parents bought a house for $105K and now that they are deceased the house is a white elephant. My brother and I will be lucky to get $65K for it. The town I live in has no attractions -- some sweatshops and roadside services, but nothing for anyone with a three-digit IQ. Wal*Mart culture. Lots of meth and opiates.

Quote:Parts of downtown Detroit are similar now.  I suspect in another few decades there will be wide swathes of neighborhoods across the midwest that look similar.

Lima, Ohio. Youngstown, Ohio.

Quote:Adaptation will have winners & losers.  But everyone gets to vote.

Are you sure that Americans will have choice in their voting in 2020? Having a vote means nothing if one does not have a meaningful choice. Iraqi citizens under Satan Hussein always had the right to vote.

[Eric the Green]

(12-17-2016, 10:28 AM)Odin Wrote: Technology is advancing too quickly for people to culturally adapt. A big reason for the angst in rural America and in the Rust Belt is people simply being unable to comprehend automation and it's ultimate end-game. Americans are raised to believe that one must earn one's money through hard work, and that ever since WW2 we have been raised to expect a good-paying job to be our birthright, even for those people who are not capable of higher education.

At the same time, a lot of these people are stuck where they are, their wealth is tied up in their houses and good luck trying to sell a house in a small rust belt town, nobody want to move to those places, which makes all the talking points about how they should just move downright tone-deaf and just increases the resentment against the "educated elites".

Then mix this together with people having chronic pain as a result of a lifetime of blue collar work, which then leads these people to end up addicted to opioid painkillers.

People might not tell them that they "should" move, that's their decision; but I still wonder why so many people stay in these places; enough to elect the new Liar in Chief who spouted slogans that appealed to them. Sometimes, if you have nothing, one would think it's time to consider moving to a place where there's more opportunity, and more life, and just start over. As Bob Dylan said in "Like a Rolling Stone," "when you got nothing, you've got nothing to lose."

[Eric the Green]

(12-19-2016, 01:23 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-19-2016, 10:51 AM)tg63 Wrote:

(12-17-2016, 10:28 AM)Odin Wrote: Technology is advancing too quickly for people to culturally adapt. A big reason for the angst in rural America and in the Rust Belt is people simply being unable to comprehend automation and it's ultimate end-game. Americans are raised to believe that one must earn one's money through hard work, and that ever since WW2 we have been raised to expect a good-paying job to be our birthright, even for those people who are not capable of higher education.

At the same time, a lot of these people are stuck where they are, their wealth is tied up in their houses and good luck trying to sell a house in a small rust belt town, nobody want to move to those places, which makes all the talking points about how they should just move downright tone-deaf and just increases the resentment against the "educated elites".

Then mix this together with people having chronic pain as a result of a lifetime of blue collar work, which then leads these people to end up addicted to opioid painkillers.

My mother grew up on a small-medium sized farm in central Canada with 5 siblings.  Eventually all the kids went to the city for work.  When their dad could no longer run the farm he moved to the city with one of his kids.  They didn't sell the farm as it was virtually worthless. They just stopped paying taxes & the municipality took it over.  They bulldozed the small house & it sits as vacant land today.  I recently looked at it on google maps, it's just random bushlands.

Much the same is about to happen in America. My parents bought a house for $105K and now that they are deceased the house is a white elephant. My brother and I will be lucky to get $65K for it. The town I live in has no attractions -- some sweatshops and roadside services, but nothing for anyone with a three-digit IQ. Wal*Mart culture. Lots of meth and opiates.

Quote:Parts of downtown Detroit are similar now.  I suspect in another few decades there will be wide swathes of neighborhoods across the midwest that look similar.

Lima, Ohio. Youngstown, Ohio.

Quote:Adaptation will have winners & losers.  But everyone gets to vote.

Are you sure that Americans will have choice in their voting in 2020? Soviet citizens always had the right to vote.

How much more like The Village will we be by 2020?





FYI "Paddy Fitz" = Patrick McGoohan

[tg63]

(12-19-2016, 03:39 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: People might not tell them that they "should" move, that's their decision; but I still wonder why so many people stay in these places; enough to elect the new Liar in Chief who spouted slogans that appealed to them. Sometimes, if you have nothing, one would think it's time to consider moving to a place where there's more opportunity, and more life, and just start over. As Bob Dylan said in "Like a Rolling Stone," "when you got nothing, you've got nothing to lose."

it's one thing to advocate for that as a young person with your life ahead of you ... doing it at middle-age with family & friends & community ties would take, well, a lot.  And it hasn't happened overnight, it's been a long decline ... it's the frog in the boiling pot analogy.

[Eric the Green]

I understand. Family and community ties can be strong, especially in that part of the country. I am not advocating; just wondering.

[Eric the Green]

The biggest sickness in our society concerns this kind of thing: