The Maelstrom of Violence

[Kinser79]

(09-21-2017, 12:44 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(09-19-2017, 10:19 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-19-2017, 09:44 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Unlike with you, I think in his case it is the latter since he rarely if ever makes new arguments.

I think you've got that backwards.  Most people have to encounter new ideas more than once if they are counter to a lifetime of propaganda exposure - especially when the propaganda specifically includes simplistic ways to reject those ideas.  In addition, I believe, he has a vested interest in the welfare system.  Get him a job that takes him off welfare for a few years, and he might suddenly become open minded.

I would not doubt that PBR has a vested interest in maintaining the welfare state, however, I have seen little evidence of his supposed intellgence.

As for countering a lifetime of exposure to propaganda, I did it.  Of course having been a Marxist-Leninist and a propagandist myself it was far easier for me to detect what is propaganda.

I'm not at all claiming he's smarter than you - just that he's smarter than Bob.

I wouldn't make the claim that PBR is smarter than Bob.  Of course that might be a difference of perception or experience.  Bob makes new arguments on occasion--his problem is that he's values locked and in a time warp which is rather typical of Boomers in general.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-22-2017, 03:35 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-21-2017, 12:44 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(09-19-2017, 10:19 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-19-2017, 09:44 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Unlike with you, I think in his case it is the latter since he rarely if ever makes new arguments.

I think you've got that backwards.  Most people have to encounter new ideas more than once if they are counter to a lifetime of propaganda exposure - especially when the propaganda specifically includes simplistic ways to reject those ideas.  In addition, I believe, he has a vested interest in the welfare system.  Get him a job that takes him off welfare for a few years, and he might suddenly become open minded.

I would not doubt that PBR has a vested interest in maintaining the welfare state, however, I have seen little evidence of his supposed intellgence.

As for countering a lifetime of exposure to propaganda, I did it.  Of course having been a Marxist-Leninist and a propagandist myself it was far easier for me to detect what is propaganda.

I'm not at all claiming he's smarter than you - just that he's smarter than Bob.

I wouldn't make the claim that PBR is smarter than Bob.  Of course that might be a difference of perception or experience.  Bob makes new arguments on occasion--his problem is that he's values locked and in a time warp which is rather typical of Boomers in general.

The old generation gap of the awakening got hit by the southern strategy and turned into the red - blue gap.  I don't know how many time's I've admitted leaning blue.  My view of the divide is from a different perspective, from one who has seen the transition.  Younger generations just haven't seen what it takes to make a culture really change.  They are allergic to the real effort it takes, which has been in large part the reason for a lack of a true regeneracy.  I don't really expect young folk to see it short of a true regeneracy occurring.  That will take more than just a timer expiring.  You'll have to give up on your cynicism and care about People.

You can grumble about patterns, but that isn't the same as breaking them.  I'm not thrilled by the divide, and will grumble about it too, but causing the pattern to shift by misconceiving the real issues won't happen.  We've got a values clash.  As Eric will tell you, those with one set of values have to overwhelm the other.  Maybe it will happen because Trump is a wonderful guy.  I doubt it.  He's got well document problems.  Maybe we should watch the inevitable power of demographics and polls, as PBR does.  They are ever so inevitable and correct except on days like the first Tuesday of November when they can end up useless.  Or, you can wait and watch the real world rather than make too silly a values based prediction.  You can commit to a faction and have to decide whether to jump ship if it fails.

Meanwhile you get a few people who haven't encountered a problem thinking themselves expert on the problem and trying to lecture someone who is much more familiar.  To me, it is a values problem, a case of some with economic values and some with health and quality of life standards.  I don't expect much to change yet.  I expect that those with economic values will keep them, will cling tightly to the Reagan meme of not spending on Americans.  I expect they will be opposed by those who have seen medical costs rise with improved care and twisted politics, who do wish to share risks and costs.  This is just a repeat of the old argument more personalized.  There is values lock there all around.  

I the long term, the rising expenses, the sharing of risks and costs, will make too much sense.  You generally present good ideas on the health care thread.  Choose something.  There will be ultimately too few fully employed to choose employee or employer based methods.  The selfish healthy and wealthy will drag their feet though, as long as their values lock lets them.  If you have economic values and a good situation, you want to avoid the risk and cost sharing ultimate solutions.

Meanwhile, we are having too much fun being the world's policeman that we can't keep the super military while Americans maintain a decent life style.  There are choices made by deciding to follow Reagan, Trump and the unraveling pattern.  The choices remain whether you or I want them to.  If spending on the armed forces rather than Americans is going to go away, it will not be by pretending a pattern has not been set and followed.

Again, I don't see anyone associating intelligence with which world view one clings to.  On this forum at least, there are smart and less smart people who associate with any values, most of whom are locked into their perspective.  People ought to listen more.  There are good ideas worth absorbing, and if one must engage in endless futile bickering, you might as well try to argue against what they actually say.  I feel safe in saying that if you need to throw away a whole branch of science, you are likely wrong.  Betting everything on a stalemated branch of 'science' such as economics is not a big win either.  In general, I would prefer scientific values over political.  One should tie back to the real world often.  Someone who argues politics and religion all the time, not science, is suspect.

But sensing one's own values lock remains hard.

[pbrower2a]

(09-22-2017, 03:30 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-21-2017, 01:04 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(09-20-2017, 08:58 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: You don't have Asperger's because that isn't a recognized condition.  In short you don't have it because no one does.  I also highly doubt you have any spectrum disorder at all. 

It was removed from DSM V, but a lot of people disagree with that change.

However, if what you're arguing is that it's not a disability, I agree.  It's a difference, but not a disability.

Convincing him that it is was a disability was just part of the mechanism to trap him onto the welfare plantation.  Perhaps you've already realized that.

Lots of people disagree with the change.  Doesn't mean that they are right.  I'm sure that lots of people would disagree with my own determination that ADD (a condition I was diognosed with, though thankfully not drugged for--Grandad wouldn't have it thank <insert favorite deity here>).

The only chemical I use to deal with the anxiety is alcohol. I am an oddity at the clinic in which I got therapy (most adults treated there there area alcoholics and addicts) in which the therapist actually suggested that I have a drink on occasion. One drink (a beer or a glass of wine) -- enough to dissolve anxiety, but not enough to dissolve my conscience or affect my shaky balance. 

Quote:Autism Spectrum is not a disability.  I've actively sought out persons on the spectrum as employees for some tasks as I've stated in the past.  Perhaps PBR wouldn't like  being a donut finisher but my two finishers who are on the spectrum seem to do alright.

All right (alright is substandard). It's a matter of perception, and I can think of two attributes of you to which you admit.

Quote:PBR didn't have to be convinced.  He has a long history of seeking out being disabled, or the victim, and other such things.  Honestly I think he has arrested development.

 
Frankly, I would rather have been told that nothing is wrong with me, and that I might as well take a job as a convenience-store clerk.

Quote:As for welfare, yeah it is a trap.  You get on it, and get a couple kids or something you really can't attempt to work for someone else, or even yourself legally without losing your benefits.  In many cases the loss of the benefits could equate to about the same as someone losing a 35K/year job.

Tell me about it. I know of a teenager who got pregnant with two darling little cash cows at age 14... her sister, who has much more going for her would have taken custody if given the chance, but you can be sure that the idiot screen is turned on all the time, and never to PBS.

Quote:Granted I get by on 30K/year but the boyfriend makes far more and we intentionally keep our expenses low, so low as to have moved into my Grandmother's house as it is paid off (and she had willed it to me anyway).

I have never been one to waste money. I envy only two things about the rich -- foreign travel (Italy, Austria, and Switzerland would be at the top of the list) and economic security, something that the economic elites must deny to all but themselves.  Jewelry, expensive cars, bloated housing, gambling jaunts -- not for me. Just let me see a little live theater on occasion... and of course listen to great classical music. Like Shostakovich string quartets and Mozart operas. It's not snobbery -- this is simply good.

The cover of the office chair at which I input stuff on the computer and read responses or watch videos has started to wear. So what did I do? Buy a new chair? No. I went to a thrift shop and bought a $4 blanket to cover it. That saves $70.

[Kinser79]

(09-22-2017, 07:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The only chemical I use to deal with the anxiety is alcohol.

Good for you, what do you want a cookie.

Quote: I am an oddity at the clinic in which I got therapy (most adults treated there there area alcoholics and addicts) in which the therapist actually suggested that I have a drink on occasion. One drink (a beer or a glass of wine) -- enough to dissolve anxiety, but not enough to dissolve my conscience or affect my shaky balance. 

So what you're saying is you got your diagnosis from some addiction councilor and not from someone who specializes with autism spectrum disorder. You know, that is actually worse than reading symptoms on WebMD and assuming you have a condition.

Quote:All right (alright is substandard).

No one cares.

Quote: It's a matter of perception, and I can think of two attributes of you to which you admit.

Perception matters, you've chosen to perceive yourself as a victim and thus you become one. You're not prey, you're a predator, but instead of using strength or intellect or even cunning to achieve your ends you use pathetic-ness. You are a vampire and your blood is the altruism of others. Indeed I'd say that if you were a Rick and Morty character you'd be Jerry. I recommend watching season 3 episode 5.

http://www.toonova.net/rick-and-morty-se...-episode-5

Quote:Frankly, I would rather have been told that nothing is wrong with me, and that I might as well take a job as a convenience-store clerk.

That is a bald faced lie. I've told you many times there is nothing wrong with you apart from a few minor character flaws. Last I checked Dunning-Kruger effect, laziness, and an inability to accept personal responsibility were not listed as pathologies.

Quote:Tell me about it. I know of a teenager who got pregnant with two darling little cash cows at age 14... her sister, who has much more going for her would have taken custody if given the chance, but you can be sure that the idiot screen is turned on all the time, and never to PBS.

Not exactly my point there. The way welfare is structured is toxic. If the idea was to help people get on their feet then the goal should be to slowly get them off dependence from the state entirely by gradually withdrawing the aid. As it stands now if you get welfare and take a job and make more than X you're cut off entirely. Most people on the welfare are neither particularly bright nor have particularly good prospects so the economic incentive is to stay on the welfare and live at the expense of others, like a parasite.

I think the main reason this is the case is that the welfare state was not created with helping citizens get out of poverty in mind (that is just how it was sold) but rather to create reliable voting blocs for the party that always seems to want to expand welfare.

Quote:I have never been one to waste money. I envy only two things about the rich -- foreign travel

Foreign travel is vastly overrated. Having been to Europe and to Asia a little I have to say that I prefer staying in America. Getting on that slave ship was the best thing that happened to my ancestors. Shit man, I may be poor for Americans but I'm pretty goddamn rich compared to some African. American blacks even those on welfare are the richest blacks on the planet.

Quote:and economic security, something that the economic elites must deny to all but themselves.

The "fabulously wealthy" don't actually have economic security. Asset bubbles and stock market crashes happen and once there was a saying of families going from shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations. If you actually knew half as much about economics that you think you know then you'd know that no one has economic security.

How many rappers and sports people have come from nothing, made it rich and died broke? Quite a lot.

Quote:  Jewelry, expensive cars, bloated housing, gambling jaunts -- not for me. Just let me see a little live theater on occasion... and of course listen to great classical music. Like Shostakovich string quartets and Mozart operas. It's not snobbery -- this is simply good.

I'm not much one for jewelry either, unless you count my pocket watch (I hate wrist watches, and I have a tendency to stop them if they are quartz-and I think it is a matter of electromagnetism and possibly blood pressure before Eric comes in with some woo-woo). Define an expensive car. My car wasn't cheep to trick out even if I bought it originally for a low price. I would have no interest going to a Farari dealership and buying one stock though. The goal is to pimp out the car, not what the car is.

You can keep the Opera, I never much liked it. The classical music can be had on CD, and as or live theater, most towns have a community theater. No it isn't Broadway but then again Broadway is vastly over rated, I know because I've been there too.

Quote:The cover of the office chair at which I input stuff on the computer and read responses or watch videos has started to wear. So what did I do? Buy a new chair? No. I went to a thrift shop and bought a $4 blanket to cover it. That saves $70.

I have one better. My chair at work originally was going to go to the dumpster. The boyfriend liberated it when the school upgraded their office furnishings. You'd be surprised some of the things people have thrown away, my home office desk was also someone else's trash. Word of advice though if you plan on dumpster diving, go to the higher end white neighborhoods. They have better trash.

[pbrower2a]

(09-23-2017, 01:02 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-22-2017, 07:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I am an oddity at the clinic in which I got therapy (most adults treated there there area alcoholics and addicts) in which the therapist actually suggested that I have a drink on occasion. One drink (a beer or a glass of wine) -- enough to dissolve anxiety, but not enough to dissolve my conscience or affect my shaky balance. 

So what you're saying is you got your diagnosis from some addiction councilor and not from someone who specializes with autism spectrum disorder.  You know, that is actually worse than reading symptoms on WebMD and assuming you have a condition.

So what you're saying is you got your diagnosis from some addiction councilor and not from someone who specializes with autism spectrum disorder.  You know, that is actually worse than reading symptoms on WebMD and assuming you have a condition.

That counselor has plenty of children to counsel, as I have seen from the stuff in his office, many for The Spectrum. Most of his adult clients are apparently druggies, boozers, and people with "anger-control issues". I'm the opposite of the druggies and boozers, as I have little empathy for them.

Quote:

Quote:It's a matter of perception, and I can think of two attributes of you to which you admit.

Perception matters, you've chosen to perceive yourself as a victim and thus you become one.  You're not prey, you're a predator, but instead of using strength or intellect or even cunning to achieve your ends you use pathetic-ness.  You are a vampire and your blood is the altruism of others.  Indeed I'd say that if you were a Rick and Morty character you'd be Jerry.    I recommend watching season 3 episode 5.

http://www.toonova.net/rick-and-morty-se...-episode-5

I'd rather not be a victim. My parents mishandled me because I didn't create any problems. The K-12 educational system saw me as a model student, and again I didn't create any problems. I was the sort to run away from fights, and I played by the rules. Be a conformist, but don't be perfect at it? I was a satisfying compromise.

But had I known I would have done many things differently.

Quote:

Quote:Frankly, I would rather have been told that nothing is wrong with me, and that I might as well take a job as a convenience-store clerk.

That is a bald faced lie.  I've told you many times there is nothing wrong with you apart from a few minor character flaws.  Last I checked Dunning-Kruger effect, laziness, and an inability to accept personal responsibility were not listed as pathologies.

It's not a character flaw.

Quote:

Quote:Tell me about it. I know of a teenager who got pregnant with two darling little cash cows at age 14... her sister, who has much more going for her would have taken custody if given the chance, but you can be sure that the idiot screen is turned on all the time, and never to PBS.  

Not exactly my point there.  The way welfare is structured is toxic.  If the idea was to help people get on their feet then the goal should be to slowly get them off dependence from the state entirely by gradually withdrawing the aid.  As it stands now if you get welfare and take a job and make more than X you're cut off entirely.  Most people on the welfare are neither particularly bright nor have particularly good prospects so the economic incentive is to stay on the welfare and live at the expense of others, like a parasite.

No social program is perfect. But leave everything to the operation of the 'free market' (meaning that the masters of the market are free to use it as they wish) and life will be miserable for most people. As in the 1920s.

Quote:I think the main reason this is the case is that the welfare state was not created with helping citizens get out of poverty in mind (that is just how it was sold) but rather to create reliable voting blocs for the party that always seems to want to expand welfare.

Do we value life enough to keep people from selling themselves into serfdom contracts, or do we not?

Everyone can go through a time of needing aid. I'd like to see welfare recipients having to make efforts to improve their lives.

Quote:

Quote:I have never been one to waste money. I envy only two things about the rich -- foreign travel

Foreign travel is vastly overrated.  Having been to Europe and to Asia a little I have to say that I prefer staying in America.  Getting on that slave ship was the best thing that happened to my ancestors.  Shit man, I may be poor for Americans but I'm pretty goddamn rich compared to some African.  American blacks even those on welfare are the richest blacks on the planet.

In the military?

I know what I would seek and what I would ignore. In Amsterdam one can see the Rijksmuseum with lots of Old Master paintings and one can also see whores advertising their wares, so to speak. 

Most military bases are awful places.

Quote:

Quote:and economic security, something that the economic elites must deny to all but themselves.

The "fabulously wealthy" don't actually have economic security.  Asset bubbles and stock market crashes happen and once there was a saying of families going from shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations.  If you actually knew half as much about economics that you think you know then you'd know that no one has economic security.

How many rappers and sports people have come from nothing, made it rich and died broke?  Quite a lot.

Stupidity + wealth or wealth + unconstrained appetites usually mean that one  ends up without the wealth.

Quote:

Quote:  Jewelry, expensive cars, bloated housing, gambling jaunts -- not for me. Just let me see a little live theater on occasion... and of course listen to great classical music. Like Shostakovich string quartets and Mozart operas. It's not snobbery -- this is simply good.

I'm not much one for jewelry either, unless you count my pocket watch (I hate wrist watches, and I have a tendency to stop them if they are quartz-and I think it is a matter of electromagnetism and possibly blood pressure before Eric comes in with some woo-woo).  Define an expensive car.  My car wasn't cheep to trick out even if I bought it originally for a low price.  I would have no interest going to a Farari dealership and buying one stock though.  The goal is to pimp out the car, not what the car is.

If I had unlimited funds and needed to buy a car, it would probably be a Honda Accord -- comfortable, low maintenance, stingy with gas, safe for its size, and quite possibly at my age the last car that I would ever need if I live as long as my parents did. Never having had a sports car, I wouldn't know what to do with one. Vehicle speed isn't my way.

Quote:You can keep the Opera, I never much liked it.  The classical music can be had on CD, and as or live theater, most towns have a community theater.  No it isn't Broadway but then again Broadway is vastly over rated, I know because I've been there too.

Your taste. There is a community theater, and while it is not as refined as what one would expect on Broadway, it is satisfying as long as one accepts its limitations. For over-refined perfection there are movies.

Quote:

Quote:The cover of the office chair at which I input stuff on the computer and read responses or watch videos has started to wear. So what did I do? Buy a new chair? No. I went to a thrift shop and bought a $4 blanket to cover it. That saves $70.

I have one better.  My chair at work originally was going to go to the dumpster.  The boyfriend liberated it when the school upgraded their office furnishings.  You'd be surprised some of the things people have thrown away, my home office desk was also someone else's trash.  Word of advice though if you plan on dumpster diving, go to the higher end white neighborhoods.  They have better trash.

To be a really-good bargain-hunter takes some imagination.

[Warren Dew]

(09-23-2017, 11:37 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

Quote:

Quote:It's a matter of perception, and I can think of two attributes of you to which you admit.

Perception matters, you've chosen to perceive yourself as a victim and thus you become one.  You're not prey, you're a predator, but instead of using strength or intellect or even cunning to achieve your ends you use pathetic-ness.  You are a vampire and your blood is the altruism of others.  Indeed I'd say that if you were a Rick and Morty character you'd be Jerry.    I recommend watching season 3 episode 5.

http://www.toonova.net/rick-and-morty-se...-episode-5

I'd rather not be a victim. My parents mishandled me because I didn't create any problems. The K-12 educational system saw me as a model student, and again I didn't create any problems. I was the sort to run away from fights, and I played by the rules. Be a conformist, but don't be perfect at it? I was a satisfying compromise.

But had I known I would have done many things differently.

What do you think your parents should have done differently?  What would you have done differently?

If you were a model student, did you go to college?  What degree did you get?

[Bob Butler 54]

Kinser

I’m not into striped posts.  I really shouldn’t break into other’s people’s striped exchanges.  Pbrower is doing fine his own way.

But you have called his councilor unqualified, himself a liar-predator, and maligned the motives of politicians.  To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Well, I can’t tell you not to say bad things about politician motivations.  I suspect part of it was to attract voters who would benefit from welfare.  I certainly won’t claim welfare as implemented today is ideal.  Some need a short period of help to get back in the game.  Some are fully and permanently disabled.  They can’t and won’t ever be in the game again.  With the latter sort of exception, welfare shouldn’t be a predator centered permanent way of life.  There is a definite difference between welfare providing a safety net, and a dole allowing lazy predators to live off others.  If I could make it so, promote the former, end the latter, I would.

But it seems wrong for you to feed your vile stereotype to one who lives otherwise.  You just can not and will not listen.  You will instead just keep feeding your stereotype to somebody you think must live it.  It must be so.  Your prejudice says so.

Yes.  He has had a different life experience than you.  Yes.  He sees how the world works differently from you.  No, disagreeing with you does not make him stupid, or you.  He has lived in a different world and seeks different solutions to different problems.

We now return to our regularly scheduled stripes.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Kinser

I’m not into striped posts.  I really shouldn’t break into other’s people’s striped exchanges.  Pbrower is doing fine his own way.

But you have called his councilor unqualified, himself a liar-predator, and maligned the motives of politicians.  To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Well, I can’t tell you not to say bad things about politician motivations.  I suspect part of it was to attract voters who would benefit from welfare.  I certainly won’t claim welfare as implemented today is ideal.  Some need a short period of help to get back in the game.  Some are fully and permanently disabled.  They can’t and won’t ever be in the game again.  With the latter sort of exception, welfare shouldn’t be a predator centered permanent way of life.  There is a definite difference between welfare providing a safety net, and a dole allowing lazy predators to live off others.  If I could make it so, promote the former, end the latter, I would.

But it seems wrong for you to feed your vile stereotype to one who lives otherwise.  You just can not and will not listen.  You will instead just keep feeding your stereotype to somebody you think must live it.  It must be so.  Your prejudice says so.

Yes.  He has had a different life experience than you.  Yes.  He sees how the world works differently from you.  No, disagreeing with you does not make him stupid, or you.  He has lived in a different world and seeks different solutions to different problems.

We now return to our regularly scheduled stripes.

What's your opinion of PB? Who is PB? This may surprise you, I didn't form my opinion/view of PB. The Republicans didn't form them of PB or you or any other blue poster for that matter. PB formed my opinion of him and my feelings toward him. PB and I are different people who handle situations/things and approach things differently. You are pretty loose with your use/understanding/view of vile stereotype, world views and values to explain/define our differences and opinions of each other.

[Warren Dew]

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Kinser

But you have called his councilor unqualified, himself a liar-predator, and maligned the motives of politicians.  To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Don't assume that because that's your method of assessment, that Kinser is doing the same thing.  He does have data for his assessments, though he is also making some

Quote:But it seems wrong for you to feed your vile stereotype to one who lives otherwise.

You're projecting.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-23-2017, 01:20 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Kinser

But you have called his councilor unqualified, himself a liar-predator, and maligned the motives of politicians.  To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Don't assume that because that's your method of assessment, that Kinser is doing the same thing.  He does have data for his assessments, though he is also making some

Well, first, Kinser is pretty unique.  I don't think anyone is doing the same thing as Kinser.

But he did assume another poster liar and predator, where I would not.

Your case, you might begin to understand where I'm coming from.  I see you as having strong if questionable financial values.  Most every argument you make is from economics.  That's make it your clear center.  You argue a lot with those who believe quality of life ought to be move valued, more central.  I am one of the later.  As usual, I'd like to see a floor protecting that which is truly important.  I'd like to see everyone contribute to sharing risks and costs.

Intensely.

And, as usual, minds who value different things are not apt to be shifted.

Where is there a need to degrade and insult a person with different values?  Economics is important.  If we can't afford it, we shouldn't pretend we can.  If we have an extraordinary division of wealth, we can.  If someone is so obsessed with his own wealth he can not care for the other guy, there is a problem.

Is that where you are at?  It is where you seem to be at.  I can not be sure as you go silent rather than say where you are really at.  I have to judge you by the arguments made.

And when to go to insult?  I go when the other guy is clearly not listening and a sledgehammer is the only way to get attention.  Does it work?  No.  Is it sometimes irresistibly tempting?  Yes.

Back to Kinser.  On what grounds did he proclaim the councilor unqualified.  Is he qualified to judge.  Was he there to judge.  When Pbower gave a sincere view of where he was at, was Kinser ready to say liar.  Where did predator come from?  Is it possible that Pbower who has come to care about quality of life is just seeking quality of life?  Is Kinser ready to listen to what he is told, or are does reality force his twisted re telling?

Different people just pursue different things in different ways.  When this gets in the way of others achieving their very different goals, there is a clash.  You do have to draw a line somewhere.  Mine is often near the poverty line, with a nod to HDHR 25.  Those who care not about Americans forced below that line get grumbled at with the occasional touch of the useless sledge hammer.

Can people acknowledge the poverty line exists?  Can they acknowledge there is a floor that should be covered with safety nets?  It is hard to get people with strong selfish economic interests to acknowledge this.  If so, we can cover what needs to be covered and within reason let the wealthy grab for the rest.  If they want to take from those who do not have, there is a need to grumble.

One aspect of listening is learning what those who disagree with you sincerely want.  If given, we can afford some degree of dog eat dog after that.

(09-23-2017, 01:20 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: But it seems wrong for you to feed your vile stereotype to one who lives otherwise.

You're projecting.

I don't think so.  Not here.  Tell me where.  Are you going to tell me that you don't make economic arguments a lot?  Is Kinser going to say he cares for all, not just his own tribe?  Does everyone think along the same pattern?  Values lock is not simply crediting people who agree with you with more intelligence.  You fight it by trying to understand and respect the other perspectives, though the latter is often hard.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-23-2017, 01:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: What's your opinion of PB? Who is PB? This may surprise you, I didn't form my opinion/view of PB. The Republicans didn't form them of PB or you or any other blue poster for that matter. PB formed my opinion of him and my feelings toward him. PB and I are different people who handle situations/things and approach things differently. You are pretty loose with your use/understanding/view of vile stereotype, world views and values to explain/define our differences and opinions of each other.

Pbower likes classical stuff, apparently above my own highly selective tastes.  I'm really into a few well known classic pieces, but am otherwise more diverse.  Bach. Scott Joplin, Gershwin, Lennon.  All are cool from my perspective.  He leans heavily blue, likely heavier than I.  We disagree a lot on the Second Amendment and role of the Supreme Court.  I have no reason to go after him personally.  None.  Well, I'll be noisy when he repeats his opinions of the Second or the Supreme Court.  I'll let him speak on his own problems.

I didn't say all Republicans think anything of Pbower.  I said Kinser did.  That's different.  Yes, smaller taxes, spending less on Americans and providing bad medical coverage to the poor are part of the Unraveling memes.  I certainly would not be surprised by a general opinion by a Republican in that vague direction.  Liar and predator are problematic, much more personal.  There comes with such an assumption that anyone who uses government services does so in a spirit of hunting, that lying is a presumed common tool.

That is, at core, a stereotype.  Those from the other side supposedly think alike, it is fully assumed, and one can treat the opposition as if the stereotype is a universal truth.  No.  That degree of prejudice should not pass without firm comment.  I'm not saying that this doesn't go two ways.

In a way, I can see how Kinser comes from a place where he has seen many lying predators.  He can believe sincerely that his stereotype is true, even if it is not, even if his intense faith in this idea shapes his idea of the world.  I can also approve his rejection of the victim card, how one should burn it, be above it.  It often sets one back.  Some of Kinser's beliefs can be respected. honored, can certainly admired.

I'm often not thrilled by the way he chooses to express his ideas, but there is more than one way to speak and listen.

But I'll call out this stereotype.  Not everyone is as he believes.  Some have motivations which he doesn't respect or understand.

[Warren Dew]

(09-23-2017, 04:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Values lock is not simply crediting people who agree with you with more intelligence.  You fight it by trying to understand and respect the other perspectives, though the latter is often hard.

Hard, eh? I guess that's why you don't bother to try to understand other perspectives.

[Kinser79]

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Kinser

I’m not into striped posts.

Then by all means post long form. I'm fine either way, but stripes are more my style so get used to it.

 

Quote:I really shouldn’t break into other’s people’s striped exchanges.

Then don't. I find that if two other people are having an A to B conversation it is prudent for me to C my way out of the area. It saves a lot of headaches.

Quote: Pbrower is doing fine his own way.

I that is true then we should hear less bitching from his end, or at least the standard blue "Trump is Hitler, ZOMG" bullshit. Yet PBR is known to whine about the most asinine of things. Seriously we're talking about a 60 something year old man who STILL whines to this day about his parents, both of whom are now dead and have been for some time.

Now, I know that I'm pretty low on the empathy here, but even you have to admit that there comes a point in time when an adult can no longer blame his parents for his problems. For most people that age is around 20 years old. I'm willing to be generious and say that if one is under 25 then you can blame your parents as a lot of people these days go to college, and well college is little more than a glorified high school. (Yes, I've been there. I dropped out to join the military because I knew I would hate it after a just a few semesters.)

Quote:But you have called his councilor unqualified,

The fact that his councilor is titled "councilor" indicates that he is not a psychologist and thus not qualified to diagnose anything. Ergo he is unqualified and PBR taking the at best educated guess of a somewhat astute amateur would be just the same as me taking medical advice as to my own health from the local veterinarian.

Quote: himself a liar-predator,

I've caught him in lies and he is a predator. Unlike many stereotypical predators he uses pity rather than violence or psychological manipulation as his weapon of choice.

Quote:and maligned the motives of politicians.

Really? Who? Where? The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the eating results in controllable voting blocks that are kept at a minimal level of comfort on the verge of absolute destitution save they continue to elect their political masters then it becomes self-evident that even if the intent of the policy in question was morally positive the RESULT (which is what really matters) is morally negative.

In the case of welfare and entitlements we are far removed from when they were instated, and the politicians who created these programs are long out of office and in many cases long dead.

 

Quote:To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Great, we have another who can't come up with an original argument. Back to your papal bull meme again. When it comes to my view of PBR it is formed off of his statements and his actions. Is my interpretation of those statements and actions influenced by my world view? Yes, but whose isn't? Certainly not yours.

Quote:Well, I can’t tell you not to say bad things about politician motivations.

Technically you could, I'm just unlikely to listen though.

Quote: I suspect part of it was to attract voters who would benefit from welfare.

If you can suspect that, then how far is it to also suspect that once implemented you find yourself with a permanent underclass that votes reliably for the party that says they will increase their welfare payouts? It isn't hard to understand that politicians are motivated by gaining votes for whatever office they are running for. It isn't hard to understand that welfare recipients, regardless of color, want increases in their welfare benefits. The latter is a simple matter of economic self-interest.

Quote: I certainly won’t claim welfare as implemented today is ideal.

I find that any program or policy directed by humans is usually far from ideal. Our species is fallible.

 

Quote:Some need a short period of help to get back in the game.  Some are fully and permanently disabled.  They can’t and won’t ever be in the game again.  With the latter sort of exception, welfare shouldn’t be a predator centered permanent way of life.  There is a definite difference between welfare providing a safety net, and a dole allowing lazy predators to live off others.  If I could make it so, promote the former, end the latter, I would.

In the former there is private and religious charity and social fraternaties as there were in the 19th century. In the latter there is of course the family. After all, it is usually considered unconscionable to allow one's parents or children and so on starve.

Welfare as directed by the state must be a parasitic relationship though. Why? Because it is paid for by taking wealth from those who produce, by force (cause if you don't pay your taxes men with guns and blue uniforms show up and cart you off to a jail), and is given to those who do not. As for those currently on the dole I would say that a large number of them are parasites living at the expense of the body politic, and furthermore have every reason to do so because a welfare mother with 3 children in section 8 housing and on SNAP would have to make around 68K/year to maintain the lifestyle that is provided by welfare. Generally speaking such persons have neither the skills nor the resources to make that happen, otherwise they would.

Now, if you're done making an ass of yourself Bob I need to make other posts.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-23-2017, 09:37 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 04:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Values lock is not simply crediting people who agree with you with more intelligence.  You fight it by trying to understand and respect the other perspectives, though the latter is often hard.

I guess that's why you don't bother to try to understand other perspectives.

That does not answer.  As usual, when you are on the poor side of an argument, you go silent.

[Kinser79]

(09-23-2017, 04:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 01:20 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Don't assume that because that's your method of assessment, that Kinser is doing the same thing.  He does have data for his assessments, though he is also making some

Well, first, Kinser is pretty unique.  I don't think anyone is doing the same thing as Kinser.

Oh please, you sound like you've never seen a black man who is conservative on some issues before. Which if you've ever seen a black man at all, you've probably seen a black man who is conservative on some issues.

Quote:But he did assume another poster liar and predator, where I would not.

So when you catch someone in a bald face lie they aren't a liar to you? And someone who is suckling at the government teat without actually working for said government isn't at the very least a parasite to you? Me thinks you need to look up the words liar and parasite. Mr. Dictionary is your friend.

Quote:Your case, you might begin to understand where I'm coming from.  I see you as having strong if questionable financial values.  Most every argument you make is from economics.  That's make it your clear center.  You argue a lot with those who believe quality of life ought to be move valued, more central.  I am one of the later.  As usual, I'd like to see a floor protecting that which is truly important.  I'd like to see everyone contribute to sharing risks and costs.

When it comes to Warren, he can answer as he sees fit. For me, I value liberty, particularly economic liberty far more than I do equality. Indeed I would go so far as to say that equality is the polar opposite of liberty. Given the choice between being free to make my own way, or being equally poor, equally stupid and equally degraded with everyone else.

Quote:Where is there a need to degrade and insult a person with different values?

I usually don't degrade and insult others regardless their values unless they demonstrate to me that they deserve it.

Quote:  Economics is important.  If we can't afford it, we shouldn't pretend we can.  If we have an extraordinary division of wealth, we can.  If someone is so obsessed with his own wealth he can not care for the other guy, there is a problem.

No. If we have a wide spread of incomes then that means that we need more economic freedom not some forced equality to some level. Socialism has failed EVERYWHERE it has been tried and that includes so-called Democratic Socialism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XgdtHewGR0

Quote:Back to Kinser.  On what grounds did he proclaim the councilor unqualified.

As stated in my previous post. The man's title is "councilor".

Quote:  Is he qualified to judge.  Was he there to judge.

Yes. I understand how titles work just like most adults of normal intelligence. No, but that is irrelevant.

 

Quote:When Pbower gave a sincere view of where he was at, was Kinser ready to say liar.  Where did predator come from?  Is it possible that Pbower who has come to care about quality of life is just seeking quality of life?  Is Kinser ready to listen to what he is told, or are does reality force his twisted re telling?

I have a hard time that PBR can be sincere about anything. As I've said previously, a man who lacks anything he would die for or kill for also lacks anything worth living for. You should watch the cartoon I linked to. But in case you missed it, PBR uses the natural empathy of other people against them to make them feel sorry for him so he can acquire something from them.

Quote:Different people just pursue different things in different ways.  When this gets in the way of others achieving their very different goals, there is a clash.  You do have to draw a line somewhere.  Mine is often near the poverty line, with a nod to HDHR 25.  Those who care not about Americans forced below that line get grumbled at with the occasional touch of the useless sledge hammer.

If the borders are controlled, and needless regulations lifted and taxes lowered just about everyone can find a job to lift them above the poverty line. For those able but unwilling to work I could care less if they starve. I'm not one to quote the Bible often but....

the apostle Paul Wrote:For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

2 Thessalonians 3:10

I would say that there are a few basic exceptions to that. Those too young to work, those too old to work, those too sick to work. Oh and going to school counts as work.

Quote:Can people acknowledge the poverty line exists?

Only a fool would make a claim that poverty does not exist.

Quote: Can they acknowledge there is a floor that should be covered with safety nets?

Then explain to me how that now that there is a welfare state in the US there is more poverty not less, and what is more is that there is more children in poverty not fewer. And that is before we get into the other factors are very socially important (single parenthood, etc, etc, etc).

 

Quote:It is hard to get people with strong selfish economic interests to acknowledge this.

I would not say that selfishness is inherently negative. But then again I subscribe to Master Morality anyway. See my posts on Nietzsche.

Quote: If so, we can cover what needs to be covered and within reason let the wealthy grab for the rest.  If they want to take from those who do not have, there is a need to grumble.

1. How can you take something from someone who doesn't possess that something? The Logic is weak with this one.

2. There is. I prescribe charity (religious or civic), family, and state/local government programs (if there are going to be any government programs at all).

Quote:One aspect of listening is learning what those who disagree with you sincerely want.  If given, we can afford some degree of dog eat dog after that.

Actually it is more expensive to eat dog food or cat food than i would be to buy a pouch of tuna at the local bodega. In fact to save money our vet told us that feeding the cat boiled chicken would serve them fine, as a bonus the chihuahua can eat it too. Buy a stewing hen, and boil the fuck out of it and we have both pet food and soup stock.

I strongly suspect you don't go to the grocery store in your household. The average can of pork and beans is far less than the average can of alpo. Never mind the fact that you could get corned beef hash which is essentially what dog food is for far less as well. And don't even get me started on the rice and beans diet.

I swear what is it with boomers and beans and rice being associated with poverty. I've experienced real poverty, that is when you have neither beans nor rice.

That being said, eating dog food on occasion is not recognized as being harmful.

[Kinser79]

(09-23-2017, 07:24 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Not everyone is as he believes. 

I've encountered people like that.  They are often much worse than I ever suspected.

[Warren Dew]

(09-23-2017, 10:38 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

Quote:Your case, you might begin to understand where I'm coming from.  I see you as having strong if questionable financial values.  Most every argument you make is from economics.  That's make it your clear center.  You argue a lot with those who believe quality of life ought to be move valued, more central.  I am one of the later.  As usual, I'd like to see a floor protecting that which is truly important.  I'd like to see everyone contribute to sharing risks and costs.

When it comes to Warren, he can answer as he sees fit.

Not much point in answering someone who fails to understand that goods and services which must be consumed for any quality of life must be produced somehow, and thus that quality of life is inherently about economics.  And even if he could understand that, he's admitted he doesn't understand economics, so he wouldn't be able to understand the explanations anyway.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I really shouldn’t break into other’s people’s striped exchanges.

Then don't.  I find that if two other people are having an A to B conversation it is prudent for me to C my way out of the area.  It saves a lot of headaches.

I am familiar with the method.  Once upon a time, a 'teacher' would give two bad options and try to force each student to embrace a bad choice.  C was practically required.  I still wonder what would have happened if I had encounter Thoreau's Civil Disobedience before he so kindly invited me down to the office for taking a quite defensible choice C.

But if the choice is be tween speaking and silence, C is not an option, and guess which choice is the more likely?

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  Pbrower is doing fine his own way.

I that is true then we should hear less bitching from his end, or at least the standard blue "Trump is Hitler, ZOMG" bullshit.  Yet PBR is known to whine about the most asinine of things.

Feel free to jump on that.  Thing is, I don't see the logic as particularly partisan.  The red flavor just involves comparing a Democrat with an autocratic 20th century party or leader.  Generally, don't anticipate the old 20th century autocratic parties or leaders to match up with today.  It's a particularly bad sort of argument.  Jump on it.  You might get a "me too".

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: But you have called his councilor unqualified,

The fact that his councilor is titled "councilor" indicates that he is not a psychologist and thus not qualified to diagnose anything.  Ergo he is unqualified and PBR taking the at best educated guess of a somewhat astute amateur would be just the same as me taking medical advice as to my own health from the local veterinarian.

I'm no great expert, but there is a different sorts of folks qualified to treat mental disease.  Some prescribe drugs.  There is in many states a link of titles to roles.  If it is like other professions, the better the degree, the more compensation.  I wouldn't expect too much more than you pay for.

I can respect a decision to stick with the top of the list, but it is a personal decision, and your personal decision.  You are not the pope to try to force your options on all.

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: himself a liar-predator,

I've caught him in lies and he is a predator.  Unlike many stereotypical predators he uses pity rather than violence or psychological manipulation as his weapon of choice.

I won't say there aren't liars or predators out there.  People from different environments may have seem more or fewer.  Your jump is premature.

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: and maligned the motives of politicians.

Really?  Who?  Where?  The proof of the pudding is in the eating.  If the eating results in controllable voting blocks that are kept at a minimal level of comfort on the verge of absolute destitution save they continue to elect their political masters then it becomes self-evident that even if the intent of the policy in question was morally positive the RESULT (which is what really matters) is morally negative.

In the case of welfare and entitlements we are far removed from when they were instated, and the politicians who created these programs are long out of office and in many cases long dead.

You describe well the Democrats of the Great Society era well, and point out that they were doing what politicians do... serve the people, and serve the people in an arguably harmful way that builds popularity and power.  Don't pretend you haven't advocated populist politicians.  Banning or flaming against people who find politicians flawed would ban or flame a lot of people.

I personally think, assuming the US remains recognizable, that there will be more people paying into the system than abusing it.  I oppose welfare of the employable as a way of life.  Make as many helpful suggestions as you please.  I have trouble with the extreme partisan who is always ready to see one extreme or the other, in this case always seeing liar predators on one side or innocent victims needing help on the other.  Let's learn to tell the difference and act accordingly.

 

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Great, we have another who can't come up with an original argument.  Back to your papal bull meme again.  When it comes to my view of PBR it is formed off of his statements and his actions.  Is my interpretation of those statements and actions influenced by my world view?  Yes, but whose isn't?  Certainly not yours.

You do dictate, confuse your opinions with objective reality more than most.  Yes, everyone's opinions will tend to follow their worldview.

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence. Some need a short period of help to get back in the game.  Some are fully and permanently disabled.  They can’t and won’t ever be in the game again.  With the latter sort of exception, welfare shouldn’t be a predator centered permanent way of life.  There is a definite difference between welfare providing a safety net, and a dole allowing lazy predators to live off others.  If I could make it so, promote the former, end the latter, I would.

In the former there is private and religious charity and social fraternities as there were in the 19th century.  In the latter there is of course the family.  After all, it is usually considered unconscionable to allow one's parents or children and so on starve.

Welfare as directed by the state must be a parasitic relationship though.  Why?  Because it is paid for by taking wealth from those who produce, by force (cause if you don't pay your taxes men with guns and blue uniforms show up and cart you off to a jail), and is given to those who do not.  As for those currently on the dole I would say that a large number of them are parasites living at the expense of the body politic, and furthermore have every reason to do so because a welfare mother with 3 children in section 8 housing and on SNAP would have to make around 68K/year to maintain the lifestyle that is provided by welfare.  Generally speaking such persons have neither the skills nor the resources to make that happen, otherwise they would.

Go back to the 19th century?  Really?  In this day and age, that is a non starter.  I know Trump is intuitive and unconventional, but that's beyond even him.

You are using the anarchy argument there.  If you don't obey, guys with guns will show up, yada yada yada.  If you are going to support the leader of the US Republican party, using the anarchy argument is inconsistent at best.  Granted, there is a great deal of truth to it.  The basis of all government is force.  This doesn't mean humankind isn't a political animal who will form groups, claim territory, make laws, etc...  Stepping back all the way to the anarchy argument is not to my mind appropriate.  It pretends to make people into non people.

***

As an aside, if you are going to invoke and respect conflicting values, if you are going to fight values lock, it is nigh on inevitable that you are going to encounter more simple values systems held by others.  A more nuanced system that respects more than one point of view will be unacceptable to a partisan looking to keep it simple.  Do you acknowledge the problem?

[pbrower2a]

(09-23-2017, 11:50 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 11:37 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

Quote:

Quote:It's a matter of perception, and I can think of two attributes of you to which you admit.

Perception matters, you've chosen to perceive yourself as a victim and thus you become one.  You're not prey, you're a predator, but instead of using strength or intellect or even cunning to achieve your ends you use pathetic-ness.  You are a vampire and your blood is the altruism of others.  Indeed I'd say that if you were a Rick and Morty character you'd be Jerry.    I recommend watching season 3 episode 5.

http://www.toonova.net/rick-and-morty-se...-episode-5

I'd rather not be a victim. My parents mishandled me because I didn't create any problems. The K-12 educational system saw me as a model student, and again I didn't create any problems. I was the sort to run away from fights, and I played by the rules. Be a conformist, but don't be perfect at it? I was a satisfying compromise.

But had I known I would have done many things differently.

What do you think your parents should have done differently?  What would you have done differently?

If you were a model student, did you go to college?  What degree did you get?

University of California, Berkeley. Economics.

[pbrower2a]

(09-23-2017, 01:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Kinser

I’m not into striped posts.  I really shouldn’t break into other’s people’s striped exchanges.  Pbrower is doing fine his own way.

But you have called his councilor unqualified, himself a liar-predator, and maligned the motives of politicians.  To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Well, I can’t tell you not to say bad things about politician motivations.  I suspect part of it was to attract voters who would benefit from welfare.  I certainly won’t claim welfare as implemented today is ideal.  Some need a short period of help to get back in the game.  Some are fully and permanently disabled.  They can’t and won’t ever be in the game again.  With the latter sort of exception, welfare shouldn’t be a predator centered permanent way of life.  There is a definite difference between welfare providing a safety net, and a dole allowing lazy predators to live off others.  If I could make it so, promote the former, end the latter, I would.

But it seems wrong for you to feed your vile stereotype to one who lives otherwise.  You just can not and will not listen.  You will instead just keep feeding your stereotype to somebody you think must live it.  It must be so.  Your prejudice says so.

Yes.  He has had a different life experience than you.  Yes.  He sees how the world works differently from you.  No, disagreeing with you does not make him stupid, or you.  He has lived in a different world and seeks different solutions to different problems.

We now return to our regularly scheduled stripes.

What's your opinion of PB? Who is PB? This may surprise you, I didn't form my opinion/view of PB. The Republicans didn't form them of PB or you or any other blue poster for that matter. PB formed my opinion of him and my feelings toward him. PB and I are different people who handle situations/things and approach things differently. You are pretty loose with your use/understanding/view of vile stereotype, world views and values to explain/define our differences and opinions of each other.

I am PB.

You have formed opinions of me. You could not fail to do so. Asperger's syndrome without diagnosis has practically made a stereotype out of me. I have had to cope despite having abilities that should have allowed me to thrive.

The paradox is that this nearly-merciless society (and it is that) at the least recognizes handicaps as things to deal with instead of as excuses for shutting people out of life. America accommodates deafness, blindness, and wheelchair use well enough because those are obvious. Mental illness? Most of it is connected to drug abuse and alcoholism, so it is suspect. Asperger's? At least I am not crazy, stupid, deluded, or evil.