Looking Toward The Next High

[Eric the Green]

(06-05-2018, 07:02 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-05-2018, 11:00 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 04:47 PM)TheNomad Wrote: The main reason 911 doesn't get the nod as the Crisis Trigger has to do with timing.

Can you see what you even wrote here?  It doesn't get the nod for the crisis because it didn't happen in the time brackets you believe the crisis happened in.

subjective?

Subjective?  Of course!  All of this is subjective.  All I can do is look at the history as it unfolded and decide if the next turning has arrived or not.  As far as I can tell, nothing about the post-911 period has any crisis-feel to it.  It seemed a lot more like a MIC opportunity: profits for some, war for a few and pass the popcorn for the rest.

FWIW, we discussed this for years after 911, and no one make a strong case for 2001 as the beginning of the crisis period, and there were many who tried.  2001 was early, but not prohibitively so.  911 could have been the trigger, but it shows no signs that is was.  This is especially true when you consider the resolution of that event: none of note.  Afghanistan is still in turmoil, Iraq is stabilizing, but not in a way we would consider transformative, and the war has just spread to Syria and Yemen.  We now have troops in 197 countries and action is most of them, yet the focus of our attention is DJT and his Tweets.

All of this is subjective

That is the whole generational disconnect.  Objectivity views things through a lens that sets aside the observer's "doctrine" so that he/she can make informed decisions NOT on what they already believe or want to believe but in rectifying things they don't believe with things they do believe.  There is very little of that happening in our culture and it is what causes alternate realities and alt facts.  To even say "alternate facts" and have that be a phrase we hear at the highest levels of those in power is insanity.  I am beginning to understand OBJECTIVITY is a concept diametrically opposed to many, possibly unable to comprehend what is even the difference between the two, therefore, unable to BE objective because it means a willingness to stop preaching and start learning.

That somehow ALTERNATE FACTS even exist.  Facts are facts, they can and are spun in any way possible to achieve the end of the person spewing those "facts".  Therefore, subjectivity is wrong and only causes problems leading to Crisis and all the flaming doom we keep seeing in every 4th Turning.  That you can't or don't see that is ITSELF proof what I am saying is true.

Subjectivity is simply another phrase for Culture Wars.  And we have to endure a whole generation of subjective people who cling to their subjectivity before all else - even over solving problems.  I think solving problems needs to be front and center and dogma needs to stay outside until you have a change to walk it.

And yet, Sir Nomad, you believe in conspiracy theories about JFK and 9-11 and maybe more. These are not facts; they are subjective feelings. It had to be a conspiracy, you say, because it must be the actions of those in power and we just refuse to face up to it. The facts are just the facts, and they say otherwise.

We boomers did not see the outer-directed lives of the GIs in a favorable light. They were alienated from life, lacking any inner guidance or gyroscope, just acting out what society wanted them to do, and we didn't believe that was the basis for a good society. Inner exploration is a necessity and a key if we are ever to have a fulfilling society based on love and respect. What you say that S&H say, is not what they said. They were not called prophets and idealists for nothing. Prophets are supposed to show the way forward and lead us there. The blue boomers do that, but aren't given the chance.

I didn't have children because I didn't want any. That was the right decision if I didn't want children, not to have them and then neglect them or not respect them and their value. I felt neglected by my GI generation parents too. They wanted me to be a robot and follow the expectations of society, just as they did.

Objectivity and subjectivity both have their place in a true understanding of reality. Objectivity gives us the observable facts and the engineering skill to build things in the outer world. But lots of things and buildings and runaway thinking alone do not bring happiness or inner peace. That must be found within. Knowing the truth on the inner-directed level means to clear our own consciousness from distortion and see what actually exists and is happening.

[TheNomad]

(06-06-2018, 03:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-05-2018, 07:02 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-05-2018, 11:00 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 04:47 PM)TheNomad Wrote: The main reason 911 doesn't get the nod as the Crisis Trigger has to do with timing.

Can you see what you even wrote here?  It doesn't get the nod for the crisis because it didn't happen in the time brackets you believe the crisis happened in.

subjective?

Subjective?  Of course!  All of this is subjective.  All I can do is look at the history as it unfolded and decide if the next turning has arrived or not.  As far as I can tell, nothing about the post-911 period has any crisis-feel to it.  It seemed a lot more like a MIC opportunity: profits for some, war for a few and pass the popcorn for the rest.

FWIW, we discussed this for years after 911, and no one make a strong case for 2001 as the beginning of the crisis period, and there were many who tried.  2001 was early, but not prohibitively so.  911 could have been the trigger, but it shows no signs that is was.  This is especially true when you consider the resolution of that event: none of note.  Afghanistan is still in turmoil, Iraq is stabilizing, but not in a way we would consider transformative, and the war has just spread to Syria and Yemen.  We now have troops in 197 countries and action is most of them, yet the focus of our attention is DJT and his Tweets.

All of this is subjective

That is the whole generational disconnect.  Objectivity views things through a lens that sets aside the observer's "doctrine" so that he/she can make informed decisions NOT on what they already believe or want to believe but in rectifying things they don't believe with things they do believe.  There is very little of that happening in our culture and it is what causes alternate realities and alt facts.  To even say "alternate facts" and have that be a phrase we hear at the highest levels of those in power is insanity.  I am beginning to understand OBJECTIVITY is a concept diametrically opposed to many, possibly unable to comprehend what is even the difference between the two, therefore, unable to BE objective because it means a willingness to stop preaching and start learning.

That somehow ALTERNATE FACTS even exist.  Facts are facts, they can and are spun in any way possible to achieve the end of the person spewing those "facts".  Therefore, subjectivity is wrong and only causes problems leading to Crisis and all the flaming doom we keep seeing in every 4th Turning.  That you can't or don't see that is ITSELF proof what I am saying is true.

Subjectivity is simply another phrase for Culture Wars.  And we have to endure a whole generation of subjective people who cling to their subjectivity before all else - even over solving problems.  I think solving problems needs to be front and center and dogma needs to stay outside until you have a change to walk it.

And yet, Sir Nomad, you believe in conspiracy theories about JFK and 9-11 and maybe more. These are not facts; they are subjective feelings. It had to be a conspiracy, you say, because it must be the actions of those in power and we just refuse to face up to it. The facts are just the facts, and they say otherwise.

We boomers did not see the outer-directed lives of the GIs in a favorable light. They were alienated from life, lacking any inner guidance or gyroscope, just acting out what society wanted them to do, and we didn't believe that was the basis for a good society. Inner exploration is a necessity and a key if we are ever to have a fulfilling society based on love and respect. What you say that S&H say, is not what they said. They were not called prophets and idealists for nothing. Prophets are supposed to show the way forward and lead us there. The blue boomers do that, but aren't given the chance.

I didn't have children because I didn't want any. That was the right decision if I didn't want children, not to have them and then neglect them or not respect them and their value. I felt neglected by my GI generation parents too. They wanted me to be a robot and follow the expectations of society, just as they did.

Objectivity and subjectivity both have their place in a true understanding of reality. Objectivity gives us the observable facts and the engineering skill to build things in the outer world. But lots of things and buildings and runaway thinking alone do not bring happiness or inner peace. That must be found within. Knowing the truth on the inner-directed level means to clear our own consciousness from distortion and see what actually exists and is happening.

And yet, Sir Nomad, you believe in conspiracy theories about JFK and 9-11 and maybe more. These are not facts; they are subjective feelings. It had to be a conspiracy, you say, because it must be the actions of those in power and we just refuse to face up to it. The facts are just the facts, and they say otherwise.

When someone says "you believe in conspiracy theories" I know there is no dialogue possible, so I just don't continue.  It is like a glob of dog poo you found on your shoe and you don't want it so you scrape it off.  No research, no reading, no REAL intrigue into what is fact and what is Warren Report.  I'll say once more and only once more, Judyth Vary Baker was neither interviewed by the Warren Report nor does her name even exist in that report, yet she was personally with Oswald and those surrounding Oswald on many different levels (read: she was not a hooker but a child science prodigy) in the entire year leading up to the assassination.  If anything, her information could shed light on the question "WAS Lee an angry lone nut or was there more going on with him?".  So, because she was not interviewed by the Warrens nor included in their official stamp, TO YOU and others that means she doesn't officially exist.  But she does exist, you have the opportunity to read her book and about her meticulous almost rat-packed supply of physical documentation which proves she is who she says she is and was where she was at the times and places she claims to have been. What you decide about her from there is on you. I'm not forcing you to believe anything so much as wishing you were open to ideas not wholly subjective coming down to the serfs from the castle. After all that is what this entire theme was about - I believe covert operations against American interests have overtaken America and if we could only get ahead of them instead of waiting 50 years for documents to be released and the guilty to die, we might be able to right this ship which has been hijacked. In 50 years, the 911 issue will be as JFK is now. It will be a huge portion of America believing something bad happened that was not on the level, so to speak. But by then, there were will be some new tragedy unfolding to distract us with new people who don't believe anything so sinister could happen, the pattern continues.

But to further close this non-investigation we are having about such a thing, my opinion there was more happening with Oswald than the official stamp has nothing to do with subjectivity and everything to do with objectivity.  A subjective person would 1) not do the research at all 2) auto-condemn any view they don't already believe or accept 3) trust fully in official stamps on such matters.  An objective person would seek out research even that which they don't agree with simply to evaluate it 2) be open to views that do not lead down roads they choose not to explore 3) would never trust in an official stamp coming from on high.

Which are you?  That is not a question I wish to debate, but is for you personally.  And the idea 3 of these angry lone nuts with no ties to anyone or any agenda above them managed to assassinate 3 major figures in 5 years, that doesn't seem odd to you makes you suspect IMO as to your motives for believing the unbelievable. I don't think you saw Captain America: The Winter Soldier. It would be a good fictional primer to how a parasite can grow in plain sight and alter the events of a nation from behind the scenes with no one suspecting it.

[David Horn]

(06-06-2018, 11:03 AM)TheNomad Wrote: ... There never used to be a word for talking heads that only erupt information of a false nature with doctrine, dogma and continually repeated phrases and sentences like some sort of verbal battering ram.  At least, I don't remember there being a word for that or an actual description or strong acknowledgment of THAT.

Let's call them what they are. Propagandist seems appropriate.

TheNomad Wrote:Is it progress the general populace is identifying something like this?  That news orgs like CNN outright call it "lies" openly and without fear? If so, that's a really good step forward.  You said not everyone is savvy enough to see through this.   have to believe that even strong identification of this behavior by those with Power is a wonderful educational tool.

Someone might watch CNN clips and they hear this: "alternate facts" and "alternative narrative".  They start thinking.  This is a fracture of fundamental reality and I don't think people will allow that much longer.  There is ridiculous blue winning in places they've maybe never have.  It seems like a backlash on red for  being so dumb with all that. But I am glad this stuff is becoming even cataloged for posterity, we might see what parts of this frakked part of history could be changed for the better.

This is still a game in play. Some pretty ugly things have happened in the past; things that didn't get corrected for decades. Look no farther than Spain under Franco or your choice from the Soviet-era. 200+ years of democratic rule is no guarantee. At best, it's a weak vaccine that can be overwhelmed if response is poor and conditions are adequately volatile.

[pbrower2a]

(06-07-2018, 12:14 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-06-2018, 11:03 AM)TheNomad Wrote: ... There never used to be a word for talking heads that only erupt information of a false nature with doctrine, dogma and continually repeated phrases and sentences like some sort of verbal battering ram.  At least, I don't remember there being a word for that or an actual description or strong acknowledgment of THAT.

Let's call them what they are.  Propagandist seems appropriate.

And, when necessary, liars. These people should know the difference between falsehood and truth and recognize that truth is precious and falsehoods are good only for quick gains followed by big harm.

Quote:

TheNomad Wrote:Is it progress the general populace is identifying something like this?  That news orgs like CNN outright call it "lies" openly and without fear? If so, that's a really good step forward.  You said not everyone is savvy enough to see through this.   have to believe that even strong identification of this behavior by those with Power is a wonderful educational tool.

Someone might watch CNN clips and they hear this: "alternate facts" and "alternative narrative".  They start thinking.  This is a fracture of fundamental reality and I don't think people will allow that much longer.  There is ridiculous blue winning in places they've maybe never have.  It seems like a backlash on red for  being so dumb with all that. But I am glad this stuff is becoming even cataloged for posterity, we might see what parts of this frakked part of history could be changed for the better.

This is still a game in play.  Some pretty ugly things have happened in the past; things that didn't get corrected for decades.  Look no farther than Spain under Franco or your choice from the Soviet-era.  200+ years of democratic rule is no guarantee.  At best, it's a weak vaccine that can be overwhelmed if response is poor and conditions are adequately volatile.

[/quote]

Dictatorial regimes depend heavily upon lies -- OK, lies, tortures, and murders. The deterioration in the reliability of political figures in democratic societies leads to a culture of political distrust that debases the electoral process. This began with Republicans pushing the idea that Barack Obama is not an American.

To be sure, no politician can achieve all the promises that he makes while running for President (the President suggests, and Congress accepts or rejects), but those who make promises impossible to achieve or make them to get votes and forgets the promises after getting the vote deserve to go down to defeat. Obviously we have to excuse a politician for a war that he did nothing to deserve for the ensuing deficits...

200 years of political heritage may be no more valuable than 20.

[TheNomad]

(06-07-2018, 01:39 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-07-2018, 12:14 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-06-2018, 11:03 AM)TheNomad Wrote: ... There never used to be a word for talking heads that only erupt information of a false nature with doctrine, dogma and continually repeated phrases and sentences like some sort of verbal battering ram.  At least, I don't remember there being a word for that or an actual description or strong acknowledgment of THAT.

Let's call them what they are.  Propagandist seems appropriate.

And, when necessary, liars. These people should know the difference between falsehood and truth and recognize that truth is precious and falsehoods are good only for quick gains followed by big harm.

Who decides?  Are they liars when "factcheckers" research their lies?  Or are they liars when each one of us decides they are lying based on our own "knowledge" and whether we agree with their lies?

IT'S A FAIR QUESTION.

[Eric the Green]

(06-06-2018, 10:53 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-06-2018, 03:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-05-2018, 07:02 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-05-2018, 11:00 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 04:47 PM)TheNomad Wrote: The main reason 911 doesn't get the nod as the Crisis Trigger has to do with timing.

Can you see what you even wrote here?  It doesn't get the nod for the crisis because it didn't happen in the time brackets you believe the crisis happened in.

subjective?

Subjective?  Of course!  All of this is subjective.  All I can do is look at the history as it unfolded and decide if the next turning has arrived or not.  As far as I can tell, nothing about the post-911 period has any crisis-feel to it.  It seemed a lot more like a MIC opportunity: profits for some, war for a few and pass the popcorn for the rest.

FWIW, we discussed this for years after 911, and no one make a strong case for 2001 as the beginning of the crisis period, and there were many who tried.  2001 was early, but not prohibitively so.  911 could have been the trigger, but it shows no signs that is was.  This is especially true when you consider the resolution of that event: none of note.  Afghanistan is still in turmoil, Iraq is stabilizing, but not in a way we would consider transformative, and the war has just spread to Syria and Yemen.  We now have troops in 197 countries and action is most of them, yet the focus of our attention is DJT and his Tweets.

All of this is subjective

That is the whole generational disconnect.  Objectivity views things through a lens that sets aside the observer's "doctrine" so that he/she can make informed decisions NOT on what they already believe or want to believe but in rectifying things they don't believe with things they do believe.  There is very little of that happening in our culture and it is what causes alternate realities and alt facts.  To even say "alternate facts" and have that be a phrase we hear at the highest levels of those in power is insanity.  I am beginning to understand OBJECTIVITY is a concept diametrically opposed to many, possibly unable to comprehend what is even the difference between the two, therefore, unable to BE objective because it means a willingness to stop preaching and start learning.

That somehow ALTERNATE FACTS even exist.  Facts are facts, they can and are spun in any way possible to achieve the end of the person spewing those "facts".  Therefore, subjectivity is wrong and only causes problems leading to Crisis and all the flaming doom we keep seeing in every 4th Turning.  That you can't or don't see that is ITSELF proof what I am saying is true.

Subjectivity is simply another phrase for Culture Wars.  And we have to endure a whole generation of subjective people who cling to their subjectivity before all else - even over solving problems.  I think solving problems needs to be front and center and dogma needs to stay outside until you have a change to walk it.

And yet, Sir Nomad, you believe in conspiracy theories about JFK and 9-11 and maybe more. These are not facts; they are subjective feelings. It had to be a conspiracy, you say, because it must be the actions of those in power and we just refuse to face up to it. The facts are just the facts, and they say otherwise.

We boomers did not see the outer-directed lives of the GIs in a favorable light. They were alienated from life, lacking any inner guidance or gyroscope, just acting out what society wanted them to do, and we didn't believe that was the basis for a good society. Inner exploration is a necessity and a key if we are ever to have a fulfilling society based on love and respect. What you say that S&H say, is not what they said. They were not called prophets and idealists for nothing. Prophets are supposed to show the way forward and lead us there. The blue boomers do that, but aren't given the chance.

I didn't have children because I didn't want any. That was the right decision if I didn't want children, not to have them and then neglect them or not respect them and their value. I felt neglected by my GI generation parents too. They wanted me to be a robot and follow the expectations of society, just as they did.

Objectivity and subjectivity both have their place in a true understanding of reality. Objectivity gives us the observable facts and the engineering skill to build things in the outer world. But lots of things and buildings and runaway thinking alone do not bring happiness or inner peace. That must be found within. Knowing the truth on the inner-directed level means to clear our own consciousness from distortion and see what actually exists and is happening.

And yet, Sir Nomad, you believe in conspiracy theories about JFK and 9-11 and maybe more. These are not facts; they are subjective feelings. It had to be a conspiracy, you say, because it must be the actions of those in power and we just refuse to face up to it. The facts are just the facts, and they say otherwise.

When someone says "you believe in conspiracy theories" I know there is no dialogue possible, so I just don't continue.  It is like a glob of dog poo you found on your shoe and you don't want it so you scrape it off.  No research, no reading, no REAL intrigue into what is fact and what is Warren Report.  I'll say once more and only once more, Judyth Vary Baker was neither interviewed by the Warren Report nor does her name even exist in that report, yet she was personally with Oswald and those surrounding Oswald on many different levels (read: she was not a hooker but a child science prodigy) in the entire year leading up to the assassination.  If anything, her information could shed light on the question "WAS Lee an angry lone nut or was there more going on with him?".  So, because she was not interviewed by the Warrens nor included in their official stamp, TO YOU and others that means she doesn't officially exist.  But she does exist, you have the opportunity to read her book and about her meticulous almost rat-packed supply of physical documentation which proves she is who she says she is and was where she was at the times and places she claims to have been.  What you decide about her from there is on you.  I'm not forcing you to believe anything so much as wishing you were open to ideas not wholly subjective coming down to the serfs from the castle.  After all that is what this entire theme was about - I believe covert operations against American interests have overtaken America and if we could only get ahead of them instead of waiting 50 years for documents to be released and the guilty to die, we might be able to right this ship which has been hijacked.  In 50 years, the 911 issue will be as JFK is now.  It will be a huge portion of America believing something bad happened that was not on the level, so to speak.  But by then, there were will be some new tragedy unfolding to distract us with new people who don't believe anything so sinister could happen, the pattern continues.

But to further close this non-investigation we are having about such a thing, my opinion there was more happening with Oswald than the official stamp has nothing to do with subjectivity and everything to do with objectivity.  A subjective person would 1) not do the research at all 2) auto-condemn any view they don't already believe or accept 3) trust fully in official stamps on such matters.  An objective person would seek out research even that which they don't agree with simply to evaluate it 2) be open to views that do not lead down roads they choose not to explore 3) would never trust in an official stamp coming from on high.

Which are you?  That is not a question I wish to debate, but is for you personally.  And the idea 3 of these angry lone nuts with no ties to anyone or any agenda above them managed to assassinate 3 major figures in 5 years, that doesn't seem odd to you makes you suspect IMO as to your motives for believing the unbelievable.  I don't think you saw Captain America: The Winter Soldier.  It would be a good fictional primer to how a parasite can grow in plain sight and alter the events of a nation from behind the scenes with no one suspecting it.

I suspected the conspiracy was true until I read more and saw more about the facts. Right, there's no more need for me to say these things again. It is not an emotional matter with me. You can continue to hold your point of view about this, and I don't knock you for it. I, however, merely point out that what we think is going on in our country should be based on facts.

Definitely objective. I read all about the case from many sources. I did the research and evaluated all the information. I didn't go by the Warren Report. Oswald did it alone. It's an open and shut case. An expert marksman, Oswald is proven to have bought and owned the weapon found at the scene. He was seen in the car carrying a package which fit the gun on the way to work that day. Witnesses from the street saw the figure of Oswald in the window. The bullet fragments found in JFKs scull, and the same type of mashed bullet found in the car, are both definitely proven to have come from his gun. His fingerprints were on the gun, and on the boxes the gun was sitting on. Three bullet cartridges matching the gun and bullets were found at the scene, and so was the bag Oswald brought the gun there in. It's as if he wanted to be caught; he made it so easy. The projectory of where JFK was hit points right to the 6th floor window of the school book depository. Witnesses saw him leaving, he was the only employee missing, and when a description was given to the police of the suspect, a policeman stopped Oswald and Oswald shot him. The links to Ferrie have been debunked, and also the theories about what happened at the hospital. I read all about what he did in Mexico, and the witnesses who saw him there. I read all about what he did in New Orleans. I read all about Jack Ruby and what he did. We know that Oswald shot a right-wing propagandist a few months before. The pictures of the broken scull are consistent with where the third bullet struck him. The theories about a fourth shot heard and recorded on a motorcycle were definitely disproven. The theory about how his head moved in the film were proven by science to fit the bullet coming from the back from the depository, not the grassy knoll. The single bullet theory about the second bullet have been proven correct. I  shared all the sources on all this and more on another discussion board.

Here is one public TV science documentary that I saw and recorded:




Who was Oswald? PBS Frontline documentary that I saw and recorded:
https://youtu.be/et3zy9wepKM

Let's see an interview with Judith Baker:
https://youtu.be/z9rgzBK3zWQ

and her speaking here; this gets more to her point
https://youtu.be/88KB7Jl5jdE

So far what I hear is just that Oswald didn't kill Kennedy, and he was her hero. The evidence is open and shut that he killed JFK, so this lady has no credibility. The only possible question is whether anyone helped him. Instead Baker does nothing but make some obviously bogus and irrelevant claims that some miscellaneous pictures of Oswald were doctored. She says she knew Oswald in New Orleans and that Oswald was an anti-communist sent to deliver cancer-causing poison to Cuba. That is false, but in any case that says nothing about who killed JFK.

She is hard to follow as she talks and rambles on. If she has more to say about Oswald's association with Ferrie and Bannister than is known, share it. I don't agree with just feelings of suspicion about me and my motives: "And the idea 3 of these angry lone nuts with no ties to anyone or any agenda above them managed to assassinate 3 major figures in 5 years, that doesn't seem odd to you makes you suspect IMO as to your motives for believing the unbelievable." This is only about facts, not about beliefs, and not about suspecting people of motives who disagree with your opinion on what is believable or not. You can do better than that, Nomad.

[David Horn]

(06-08-2018, 03:38 AM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-07-2018, 01:39 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-07-2018, 12:14 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-06-2018, 11:03 AM)TheNomad Wrote: ... There never used to be a word for talking heads that only erupt information of a false nature with doctrine, dogma and continually repeated phrases and sentences like some sort of verbal battering ram.  At least, I don't remember there being a word for that or an actual description or strong acknowledgment of THAT.

Let's call them what they are.  Propagandist seems appropriate.

And, when necessary, liars. These people should know the difference between falsehood and truth and recognize that truth is precious and falsehoods are good only for quick gains followed by big harm. 

Who decides?  Are they liars when "factcheckers" research their lies?  Or are they liars when each one of us decides they are lying based on our own "knowledge" and whether we agree with their lies?

IT'S A FAIR QUESTION.

This may be the essential question.  We have exited the world of demonstrable fact and entered a world of deeply held belief.  The argument in favor of Trump opponents being extra careful making statements may be correct, as fact based narrative, but may be self defeating.  Look at the Mueller probe, as a prime example.  Are Trump apologists winning by throwing everything at the investigation, truth be damned?  Is first-across-the-line the new standard for winning an argument?  It seems that facts don't cut it anymore.

[pbrower2a]

(06-08-2018, 03:38 AM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-07-2018, 01:39 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-07-2018, 12:14 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-06-2018, 11:03 AM)TheNomad Wrote: ... There never used to be a word for talking heads that only erupt information of a false nature with doctrine, dogma and continually repeated phrases and sentences like some sort of verbal battering ram.  At least, I don't remember there being a word for that or an actual description or strong acknowledgment of THAT.

Let's call them what they are.  Propagandist seems appropriate.

And, when necessary, liars. These people should know the difference between falsehood and truth and recognize that truth is precious and falsehoods are good only for quick gains followed by big harm.

Who decides?  Are they liars when "factcheckers" research their lies?  Or are they liars when each one of us decides they are lying based on our own "knowledge" and whether we agree with their lies?

IT'S A FAIR QUESTION.

Fact-checking is a good and necessary way to catch liars. Solid journalism hires people to check stories and sources. This is one way to catch plagiarists and those who fabricate stories. That is how the New York Times caught Jayson Blair. Liars in the media deserve to be drummed out so that they can work in non-professional environments in which there is no opportunity in which to lie or in which lying has few consequences. 

Maybe such a standard as two sources (unless official, definitive sources) can fail -- but then one faults those who lied to reporters.

Integrity is essential to responsible government. When integrity vanishes (as with Donald Trump), all sorts of things, none of them good, can happen.

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-08-2018, 03:48 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 03:38 AM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-07-2018, 01:39 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-07-2018, 12:14 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-06-2018, 11:03 AM)TheNomad Wrote: ... There never used to be a word for talking heads that only erupt information of a false nature with doctrine, dogma and continually repeated phrases and sentences like some sort of verbal battering ram.  At least, I don't remember there being a word for that or an actual description or strong acknowledgment of THAT.

Let's call them what they are.  Propagandist seems appropriate.

And, when necessary, liars. These people should know the difference between falsehood and truth and recognize that truth is precious and falsehoods are good only for quick gains followed by big harm.

Who decides?  Are they liars when "factcheckers" research their lies?  Or are they liars when each one of us decides they are lying based on our own "knowledge" and whether we agree with their lies?

IT'S A FAIR QUESTION.

Fact-checking is a good and necessary way to catch liars. Solid journalism hires people to check stories and sources. This is one way to catch plagiarists and those who fabricate stories. That is how the New York Times caught Jayson Blair. Liars in the media deserve to be drummed out so that they can work in non-professional environments in which there is no opportunity in which to lie or in which lying has few consequences. 

Maybe such a standard as two sources (unless official, definitive sources) can fail -- but then one faults those who lied to reporters.

Integrity is essential to responsible government. When integrity vanishes (as with Donald Trump), all sorts of things, none of them good, can happen.

Yeah, but you have to check the so called "fact checkers" nowadays.  The Atlantic Council is no fucking legit source.

https://siliconangle.com/blog/2018/05/17...-meddling/

Dumping FaceFuck if the best way to clear oneself from fake news.

[TheNomad]

The fact anyone is arguing over what is a fact and who decides what is fact, can we not agree there is a fundamental problem with REALITY right now? And where does that come from? No one here will admit they are anywhere near part of the problem. Yet, "subjective reality" continues and that is why we have powers at the highest levels openly claiming they exist in an ALTERNATE REALITY.

They are not the only responsible parties for this fracture of what is real and what isn't. Perhaps we all need to take a closer look at how we operate in our own lives and ARE we contributing to this modern delinquency?

[TheNomad]

Dumping FaceFuck if the best way to clear oneself from fake news.

I do not agree.  That is a platform where people go to feel safe that they will not encounter anything that remotely touches their BUBBLE of reality.  It's a place like so many others where people control whether they are exposed to new ideas or if they remain INSULATED in the soft blanket of their dogmas.

I no longer blame platforms for giving people an opportunity to be big babies with their MOBILE above the crib with no threatening images that may have an impact on how they view the world.

That is on the individual who creates that environment for themselves not some silly Suckerbird

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-08-2018, 06:29 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Dumping FaceFuck if the best way to clear oneself from fake news.

I do not agree.  That is a platform where people go to feel safe that they will not encounter anything that remotely touches their BUBBLE of reality.  It's a place like so many others where people control whether they are exposed to new ideas or if they remain INSULATED in the soft blanket of their dogmas.

I no longer blame platforms for giving people an opportunity to be big babies with their MOBILE above the crib with no threatening images that may have an impact on how they view the world.

That is on the individual who creates that environment for themselves not some silly Suckerbird

Did you read the link?  Again, Suckerbird hired the Atlantic Council to purge "fake news" as per the elitist cabal that runs the US from stuff they think is fake, whether it's actually real or fiction.

* Ostrich award for FaceFuck users.  

[TheNomad]

(06-08-2018, 07:14 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 06:29 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Dumping FaceFuck if the best way to clear oneself from fake news.

I do not agree.  That is a platform where people go to feel safe that they will not encounter anything that remotely touches their BUBBLE of reality.  It's a place like so many others where people control whether they are exposed to new ideas or if they remain INSULATED in the soft blanket of their dogmas.

I no longer blame platforms for giving people an opportunity to be big babies with their MOBILE above the crib with no threatening images that may have an impact on how they view the world.

That is on the individual who creates that environment for themselves not some silly Suckerbird

Did you read the link?  Again, Suckerbird hired the Atlantic Council to purge "fake news" as per the elitist cabal that runs the US from stuff they think is fake, whether it's actually real or fiction.

* Ostrich award for FaceFuck users.  

It doesn't matter.  Nor what cute birds and euphemisms you assign to them!

Right now, many are in their own NESTS of what they accept as real and what they do not.  Maybe your head hole is just in another area?

f@cebook doesn't lie to anyone.  It says "here is a place for YOU and everything YOU stand for, YOUR photos, YOUR views, YOUR NEWS FEEDS.

I almost don't care they sell information to anyone, because people are choosing to let that happen................ DUE TO FAKE ALTERNATE REALITIES.  "it doesn't sell information because MY NEWS FEED doesn't say it does therefore you are alternate reality". 

I happen to subscribe to Christ who was telling people to take the FAKE out of thine own news feed before attempting to remove the falsehood from thy neighbor's feed.  And that's how the world is changed not by calling others names and that they are lemming or ostrich because you are also guilty.  If I am guilty, at least I am a step ahead of you who thinks all their work is already done and to start focusing on others.

And friend, there was no value added here. A refund perhaps?

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-08-2018, 08:57 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 07:14 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 06:29 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Dumping FaceFuck if the best way to clear oneself from fake news.

I do not agree.  That is a platform where people go to feel safe that they will not encounter anything that remotely touches their BUBBLE of reality.  It's a place like so many others where people control whether they are exposed to new ideas or if they remain INSULATED in the soft blanket of their dogmas.

I no longer blame platforms for giving people an opportunity to be big babies with their MOBILE above the crib with no threatening images that may have an impact on how they view the world.

That is on the individual who creates that environment for themselves not some silly Suckerbird

Did you read the link?  Again, Suckerbird hired the Atlantic Council to purge "fake news" as per the elitist cabal that runs the US from stuff they think is fake, whether it's actually real or fiction.

* Ostrich award for FaceFuck users.  

It doesn't matter.  Nor what cute birds and euphemisms you assign to them!

Right now, many are in their own NESTS of what they accept as real and what they do not.  Maybe your head hole is just in another area?

f@cebook doesn't lie to anyone.  It says "here is a place for YOU and everything YOU stand for, YOUR photos, YOUR views, YOUR NEWS FEEDS.

I almost don't care they sell information to anyone, because people are choosing to let that happen................ DUE TO FAKE ALTERNATE REALITIES.  "it doesn't sell information because MY NEWS FEED doesn't say it does therefore you are alternate reality". 

I happen to subscribe to Christ who was telling people to take the FAKE out of thine own news feed before attempting to remove the falsehood from thy neighbor's feed.  And that's how the world is changed not by calling others names and that they are lemming or ostrich because you are also guilty.  If I am guilty, at least I am a step ahead of you who thinks all their work is already done and to start focusing on others.

And friend, there was no value added here.  A refund perhaps?

Ah, my man, there's no escaping FaceFuck stuffs its feeds with junk to feed trash into your head and always remember and never forget, you're not the customer, but the product.   

Besides, my posts have more value than those feeds so no refund, since my posts are free.

Turn on , tune in, drop out of fakiefake.





https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/us/fa...ytica.html

[TheNomad]

(06-08-2018, 09:42 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 08:57 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 07:14 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 06:29 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Dumping FaceFuck if the best way to clear oneself from fake news.

I do not agree.  That is a platform where people go to feel safe that they will not encounter anything that remotely touches their BUBBLE of reality.  It's a place like so many others where people control whether they are exposed to new ideas or if they remain INSULATED in the soft blanket of their dogmas.

I no longer blame platforms for giving people an opportunity to be big babies with their MOBILE above the crib with no threatening images that may have an impact on how they view the world.

That is on the individual who creates that environment for themselves not some silly Suckerbird

Did you read the link?  Again, Suckerbird hired the Atlantic Council to purge "fake news" as per the elitist cabal that runs the US from stuff they think is fake, whether it's actually real or fiction.

* Ostrich award for FaceFuck users.  

It doesn't matter.  Nor what cute birds and euphemisms you assign to them!

Right now, many are in their own NESTS of what they accept as real and what they do not.  Maybe your head hole is just in another area?

f@cebook doesn't lie to anyone.  It says "here is a place for YOU and everything YOU stand for, YOUR photos, YOUR views, YOUR NEWS FEEDS.

I almost don't care they sell information to anyone, because people are choosing to let that happen................ DUE TO FAKE ALTERNATE REALITIES.  "it doesn't sell information because MY NEWS FEED doesn't say it does therefore you are alternate reality". 

I happen to subscribe to Christ who was telling people to take the FAKE out of thine own news feed before attempting to remove the falsehood from thy neighbor's feed.  And that's how the world is changed not by calling others names and that they are lemming or ostrich because you are also guilty.  If I am guilty, at least I am a step ahead of you who thinks all their work is already done and to start focusing on others.

And friend, there was no value added here.  A refund perhaps?

Ah, my man, there's no escaping FaceFuck stuffs its feeds with junk to feed trash into your head and always remember and never forget, you're not the customer, but the product.   

Besides, my posts have more value than those feeds so no refund, since my posts are free.

Turn on , tune in, drop out of fakiefake.





https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/us/fa...ytica.html

Turn on , tune in, drop out of fakiefake.

But Dr Leary is dead.  Why are we doing battle?  I only see everyone picking out things they agree with and then nodding heads as if somehow that solves anything.  Do you want command over people's news feeds?  Do you want to hang up your paradigm for others to hang their shirt on?  Post your entire youtube channel but it doesn't matter.  I thought this place was different - I was clearly mistaken.

So easily we are not even on topic anymore.  As far as I'm concerned this is all SPAM and how is that different from polemic heads on the news?  It's gross actually.  At least The Avengers (fake CGI people with capes) are coming together from disparate climbs to identify and battle the problem.  It's a good model for those who don't know Tim Leary from Tom Lowry.  They'll will still fix shit because doctrines of Terra or Nidavalier are irrelevant when large fates are at stake.

I think many would blow up another planet if it meant this one could survive with sacred doctrines intact.  And how is it different from a religious war?  It is one set fighting for their values against the other doing the same.  M.A.D. is a welcome concept. 

Not for me.  The more I see, the more I and prompted to believe there will be a great war waiting for us not because it has to happen but because we have fulfilled our collective Destiny of self destruction.

Not a tear for that?  None?

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-08-2018, 10:36 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 09:42 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 08:57 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 07:14 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 06:29 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Dumping FaceFuck if the best way to clear oneself from fake news.

I do not agree.  That is a platform where people go to feel safe that they will not encounter anything that remotely touches their BUBBLE of reality.  It's a place like so many others where people control whether they are exposed to new ideas or if they remain INSULATED in the soft blanket of their dogmas.

I no longer blame platforms for giving people an opportunity to be big babies with their MOBILE above the crib with no threatening images that may have an impact on how they view the world.

That is on the individual who creates that environment for themselves not some silly Suckerbird

Did you read the link?  Again, Suckerbird hired the Atlantic Council to purge "fake news" as per the elitist cabal that runs the US from stuff they think is fake, whether it's actually real or fiction.

* Ostrich award for FaceFuck users.  

It doesn't matter.  Nor what cute birds and euphemisms you assign to them!

Right now, many are in their own NESTS of what they accept as real and what they do not.  Maybe your head hole is just in another area?

f@cebook doesn't lie to anyone.  It says "here is a place for YOU and everything YOU stand for, YOUR photos, YOUR views, YOUR NEWS FEEDS.

I almost don't care they sell information to anyone, because people are choosing to let that happen................ DUE TO FAKE ALTERNATE REALITIES.  "it doesn't sell information because MY NEWS FEED doesn't say it does therefore you are alternate reality". 

I happen to subscribe to Christ who was telling people to take the FAKE out of thine own news feed before attempting to remove the falsehood from thy neighbor's feed.  And that's how the world is changed not by calling others names and that they are lemming or ostrich because you are also guilty.  If I am guilty, at least I am a step ahead of you who thinks all their work is already done and to start focusing on others.

And friend, there was no value added here.  A refund perhaps?

Ah, my man, there's no escaping FaceFuck stuffs its feeds with junk to feed trash into your head and always remember and never forget, you're not the customer, but the product.   

Besides, my posts have more value than those feeds so no refund, since my posts are free.

Turn on , tune in, drop out of fakiefake.





https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/us/fa...ytica.html

Turn on , tune in, drop out of fakiefake.

But Dr Leary is dead.  Why are we doing battle?  I only see everyone picking out things they agree with and then nodding heads as if somehow that solves anything.  Do you want command over people's news feeds?  Do you want to hang up your paradigm for others to hang their shirt on?  Post your entire youtube channel but it doesn't matter.  I thought this place was different - I was clearly mistaken.

So easily we are not even on topic anymore.  As far as I'm concerned this is all SPAM and how is that different from polemic heads on the news?  It's gross actually.  At least The Avengers (fake CGI people with capes) are coming together from disparate climbs to identify and battle the problem.  It's a good model for those who don't know Tim Leary from Tom Lowry.  They'll will still fix shit because doctrines of Terra or Nidavalier are irrelevant when large fates are at stake.

I think many would blow up another planet if it meant this one could survive with sacred doctrines intact.  And how is it different from a religious war?  It is one set fighting for their values against the other doing the same.  M.A.D. is a welcome concept. 

Not for me.  The more I see, the more I and prompted to believe there will be a great war waiting for us not because it has to happen but because we have fulfilled our collective Destiny of self destruction.

Not a tear for that?  None?

Yes, no tears for the forces that enslave the mind. FaceFuck is just a pretty smile on one face of a corporate slave master.
Free your mind , my friend and join the highway to knowledge of what's real.   Blow up the planet. Well, that's what neoliberalismm/neoconservatism is all about.  Those evil twins of the axis of evil advocate just one thing:  Ruination of the earth for the sake of profits and power. You see, it's a one way ticket to oblivion.   For the sake of power and profits, all of earth's riches go from the earth itself, to factories, to con$umer$, and off to the landfill. Embrace your inner child and set yourself free!  You have only your mind to lose.

Peace out.

[pbrower2a]

(06-08-2018, 06:25 PM)TheNomad Wrote: The fact anyone is arguing over what is a fact and who decides what is fact, can we not agree there is a fundamental problem with REALITY right now?  And where does that come from?  No one here will admit they are anywhere near part of the problem.  Yet, "subjective reality" continues and that is why we have powers at the highest levels openly claiming they exist in an ALTERNATE REALITY.

They are not the only responsible parties for this fracture of what is real and what isn't.  Perhaps we all need to take a closer look at how we operate in our own lives and ARE we contributing to this modern delinquency?

We must learn to separate factual reality from "I like" and "I dislike". That I dislike blizzards does not keep me from recognizing that there might be a blizzard raging just outside my door. If you live in blizzard country you can make adjustments, like relying upon such culture as is available in your home. You can also move if you have the funds, economic flexibility, and the ability to adapt to another place.

I have serious doubt that the current President can separate reality from "I like" and "I dislike" or ever had or exercised such capacity. I wonder if he ever took a college-level course in any aspect of philosophy, including even a survey course. Donald Trump may be a happy man to the extent that he gets whatever he wants, but the unexamined life is otherwise blind and likely delinquent.

A morally-blind or morally-inattentive life is delinquency. The juvenile delinquent has always scared us for having adult strength and a modicum of competence at doing harmful things. Adult delinquency is even more dangerous, which explains the loathing that so many of us have for fascists and gangsters. (Communism fails for gaps in its assumptions, more a result of factual inadequacies than of moral failings except of Communist leaders). 

Ultimately we see a trend in which most people's happiness no longer has any relevance. Reality is that a few people have arrogated to themselves all the power and most of the wealth and streams of income. The rest of us can at best hope to protect what we have so long as we can. Donald Trump has the ethical values of a feudal lord of the Middle Ages -- that the rest of the world, except for the biggest lord of them all (the King) defers or endures horrific consequences -- like breaking at the wheel or burning at the stake. Happiness for any subordinate, especially the serfs, has no reality in a moral order that has such as its predicate.

No, he is not the only one. Maybe the economic elites of the Boom generation (like Trump) got far too much indulgence and far too little responsibility too early, and hence got a self-centered view of all reality. The prole Boomer found out at least with the first job that the source of the paychecks had the real power. I see serious contradictions (Hello, Hegel!) between our old claim and ideal of liberal democracy and a government that represents wealth and institutional power at the expense of all else. To be sure, this did not suddenly begin under Donald Trump. Lobbyists have effectively controlled the federal legislative branch and most state legislatures since 2011, and had similar power from about 1995 to 2006. But government that at all levels represents nothing other than corporate power is what we have now, and Donald Trump is the definitive expression of government by the wealth and institutional power, for the wealth and institutional power, and by the wealth and institutional power. The style of government that we now have is practically what the political pervert Benito Mussolini offered for Italy -- his Corporate State that represents economic ownership and institutional power instead of the people. Trump is no theoretician, as he has never had the pretense to philosophical prowess that Mussolini claimed. (Needless to say, Mussolini seems to have never examined his life and its purpose).

So perhaps our elites are a little more generous than feudal lords of the Middle Ages. They might let us listen to a little rock-and-roll on the car stereo if we are good enough to be able to buy car payments (tough luck if you must ride the bus). They might let us splurge every year on a trip to a theme park.  Just to stave off the numbing boredom they might allow us to see a spectacular movie. So what? We will still be peons as long as people like Donald Trump reflect the political reality that we endure.

I hate life itself under this unified command in politics.

[Mikebert]

(06-08-2018, 03:38 AM)TheNomad Wrote: Who decides?  Are they liars when "factcheckers" research their lies?  Or are they liars when each one of us decides they are lying based on our own "knowledge" and whether we agree with their lies?

IT'S A FAIR QUESTION.

It's not really a sensible question. 

Consider these questions and answers:

Q. Why does wood or coal burn with a yellow or orange flame while natural gas (usually) burns with blue flame. Why those colors and not others?  
A: Gases burn with a blue flame, while hot soot particles glow with a yellow-orange color because they are solids.

Q. When plants take in carbon dioxide and emit oxygen, where does the oxygen come from? 
A: From the oxygen molecules in the carbon dioxide.

Can you assess the truth content of the answers to these questions out of what your personal knowledge about the physics of flame colors or the biochemistry of photosynthesis?

If not, how would you go about trying to answer these questions? Would you (1)  simply pronounce the truth of the matter ex cathedra-style or (2) do some google searches lookin for answers?

If you chose 1, who died and made you God?  And if 2, what you are doing is "fact checking". 

So the answer to your question above is when "factcheckers research their lies" and not "whether we agree with their lies". 

Unless you believe you really are Almighty God.  

[TheNomad]

(06-09-2018, 08:10 AM)Mikebert Wrote:

(06-08-2018, 03:38 AM)TheNomad Wrote: Who decides?  Are they liars when "factcheckers" research their lies?  Or are they liars when each one of us decides they are lying based on our own "knowledge" and whether we agree with their lies?

IT'S A FAIR QUESTION.

It's not really a sensible question. 

Consider these questions and answers:

Q. Why does wood or coal burn with a yellow or orange flame while natural gas (usually) burns with blue flame. Why those colors and not others?  
A: Gases burn with a blue flame, while hot soot particles glow with a yellow-orange color because they are solids.

Q. When plants take in carbon dioxide and emit oxygen, where does the oxygen come from? 
A: From the oxygen molecules in the carbon dioxide.

Can you assess the truth content of the answers to these questions out of what your personal knowledge about the physics of flame colors or the biochemistry of photosynthesis?

If not, how would you go about trying to answer these questions? Would you (1)  simply pronounce the truth of the matter ex cathedra-style or (2) do some google searches lookin for answers?

If you chose 1, who died and made you God?  And if 2, what you are doing is "fact checking". 

So the answer to your question above is when "factcheckers research their lies" and not "whether we agree with their lies". 

Unless you believe you really are Almighty God.  

btw: *I am God.  So, now that's out of the way.

You seem to want to say fact is based on science.  But then it should be clarified what even is science: REPEATABLE AND DEMONSTRATIVE TASKS WHICH, WHEN PERFORMED BY ANYONE AT ANY TIME, BRING THE SAME RESULTS.  It means anyone can TEST what is true by scientific method.  Some are choosing not to even perform the test at all, choosing to say the opposite of the test result is true even when it isn't, and say the test at all or the idea of testing is wrong or immoral or witch hunting.

In a court of law, there are Experts.  They are to be called when the jury or judge cannot be expected within reasonable limits to make an informed decision based on the severe technical difficulty of some evidence.  The Expert must be someone skilled in that specific line of evidence or science, and then their personal character to be on display to be challenged by defense or prosecution (with judge deciding) if it is interfering with their determination (THEY MUST BE SUBJECTIVE IN THEIR FINDINGS). 

There are things we just have to leave to experts because we are not all God.  Being as *I am [God], I do not have to rely on these "experts" because I know what they know, and I don't have to hear them and when they are incorrect, I already know they are wrong because God knows all even before the expert has spoken.  And who is right when it is God V the Expert?

GOD.

Maybe we have a pantheon here.

[Hintergrund]

The Boomers will have to die off before a new High will be possible.