Looking Toward The Next High

[TheNomad]

(06-03-2018, 09:21 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-03-2018, 04:29 AM)TheNomad Wrote: (to me)

Quote:You said: We will never know what was going on in the murky mind of Lee Harvey Oswald, a man who could never form a wholesome bond with anything. He could not fit in in the USA, and he could not fit in in the USSR. If you want to claim that he was a KGB operative -- he was too untrustworthy for a high-risk, low-reward assassination. To claim that he was part of some right-wing plot to take down someone that Dallas-area participants in the right-wing lunatic fringe hated -- such was too risky for themselves for any involvement. As someone with no obvious moral certainties, he could go from one extreme to the other in his political views.

 

It is amazing you know so much about the man.  Did you ever meet him?  From where did you receive your intimate knowledge of him?  All the adjectives you used are also used for cult leaders, psychotics and the insane.

I have seen several documentaries about the JFK assassination. Much of the detail on Lee Harvey Oswald is already in the public domain, including his military record and his general movements.  He did buy a rifle  that he left behind at the Texas School Book Depository in his haste to leave. But let us remember that someone like Lee Harvey Oswald (if you lump him with "cult leaders, psychotics, and the insane") is more likely to be explained through his actions than through confessions about his inner self; besides, someone like him likely has little of an 'inner self' and would be either dishonest or simply wrong if he tried to examine his life. Someone who does what he has done will draw much attention. What is said about him is often confusing because it reflects a befuddled man who seems like just the sort to be so foolish as to believe that he could assassinate the President of the United States and get away with it.

Quote:Do you believe at all in the idea of propaganda?  Yes?  No?  Possibly?  "Official Narratives" are exactly that.  I suggested to another friend here to seek a book called Me & Lee by Judith Vary Baker.  She actually knew him; intimately.  And if you do not know her story, you know very little about JFK except what has been prepared for you to know in advance.

Intimate partners of those who do outrageous, incomprehensible deeds generally do not hear everything. Timothy McVeigh actually had a wife who may have no clue about why her late husband detonated a bomb in the Murrah Federal Building. Sane, decent people can spill more of their souls than can crazy, violent people who must act normal just to avoid trouble. Oswald's Russian-born wife, who could have known more about him than any person other than his mother has exposed little -- probably because Lee Harvey Oswald did not tell her what he was up to. Let us remember that the FBI is really good at getting people who have guilty (and not-so-guilty) knowledge to expose themselves and get them implicated or exonerate themselves and implicate someone else.

Marina Oswald has remained in the United States without enduring any penal term -- and if the FBI could connect her even to giving Lee Harvey Oswald any hints on any aspect of the crime, it would, and the courts would have given her a prison term. Meanwhile the INS would have gotten and followed directions to strip her of her US citizenship and deport her.

To be sure, I have never read Me & Lee by Judith Vary Baker. I have never even heard of it. Lee Harvey Oswald was a confused, angry loner and loser unable to connect to much or formulate any well-refined or stable beliefs.

Do I believe in propaganda? Certainly -- as by FoX "News", which I have lambasted as "the Propaganda Channel", "FoX Newspeak Channel", and GOP Pravda". Do I believe propaganda? I hope not, but even I can recognize propaganda  in such well-received feature films as Gone with the Wind (basically the slaves were child-like in their judgment and needed the stern management of owners and overseers to keep them from straying) and Casablanca (anyone who does not think himself fortunate to be in America is a fool; if you think you have problems, just think of what is going on in the Hell that is the Third Reich and its conquered or satellite countries).

This said, propaganda has its effectiveness, especially where alternatives are unavailable. But alternative views can be far more crazy than some ostensibly-plausible explanation. Some sources (like tabloid media) are inherently suspect. This said, we are near the opposite of the reality that one finds in North Korea, in which there is but one acceptable source of information. North Korean propaganda is ludicrous for its hackish content and techniques. Propaganda from the People's Republic of China is far more subtle, probably because China is far more open to outside news about anything outside China. Yes, I see much of the news that the Trump regime  (and face it, this Presidency is close to being a despotism or dictatorship) as propaganda -- incompetent propaganda whose disseminators fail to assess its impact upon the people that it derides.

The most effective propaganda comes from political and cultural leadership that understands the intended target very well and can adapt quickly. Goebbels? No. Falsehoods eventually caught up with him, as shown in the short You Nazty Spy and the cinematic masterpiece The Great Dictator. Think of the cinema bosses in America in the 1930s and early 1940s who had self-evident reason to expose how horrible the Nazis were... and the Churchill government. The really good propagandists are as adept at convincing outsiders as the inept ones (like the North Korean News or 'Comical Ali') are capable of proving their slavish loyalty to bosses who can have them killed. Of course, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, who is about as effective in convincing Americans not part of the Trump cult as 'Comical Ali' was capable of convincing Americans of any political stripe, does not fear being murdered.      

I am not going to guess what will be exposed when the findings of the Warren Commission are fully leaked. I'm guessing that much has been covered as a defense against defamation lawsuits or to protect sources or exonerated suspects. Maybe that explains why we have theories ranging from right-wing plotters in the Dallas-Fort Worth area to the CIA to the KGB and Fidel Castro. Consider the possible consequences of a linking of the Kennedy assassination to the KGB (over the Cuban Missile Crisis) -- World War III, anybody?

OK, it's clear you don't have enough information concerning the JFK plot to read Ms Vary's book so I would not suggest it.  Her book contains very specific knowledge of both Lee Oswald and the surrounding characters in New Orleans in the Summer leading up to the assassination. 

I am glad you watched a documentary tho.

The idea was not to haggle about one theory or another, I had said as Americans, we can never seem to get ahead of the  curve when the Powers are raping us.  I said IF we would get ahead of something like the 911 plot NOW instead of in 50 years, we might be able to prosecute the guilty.  As Americans we are very trusting of the Powers.

[TheNomad]

btw if anyone here is into the JFK incident, and want to discuss more about that, perhaps we can in a different thread? The book I mentioned contains startling details that, if one really has knowledge of the JFK "thing" (as it is called), could augment your knowledge to greater levels.

[Eric the Green]

(06-02-2018, 11:27 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 08:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 04:18 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 04:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Well maybe, but what you are saying is just what the blue boomers are saying and still stand for. We boomers knew every bit of this back in the 60s. We said all these things back then. The problem is we have been stalemated ever since, because the corporate big shots got together and installed corporate trickle-down economics into our government, and the reformers have been shoved aside ever since. So yes, blue is the right party, or green is the right party, or whoever is saying and doing the right things, and we need the gray champions to come out and be leaders along with the young champions. We need to vote, and vote to take back the system from all the rigging: the gerrymandering, the money-grubbing, the vote suppression, every bit of it. Yes, voting on the basis of real knowledge and concern, is the cure for a lot of what you mentioned. The young people like those who spoke at the March for Our Lives know this. Bernie made inequality and hyper-capitalism his issue; other candidates will as well.

I don't know if we can bring back the Mom and Pop economy and tear down all the big box stores. Maybe that's just the age we live in. But we can do a lot to make the bosses pay, and open up the economy to the little guy. I always thought it would take a spiritual renaissance as well. Then we get into the other side of life, and the whole nature of our worldviews that dehumanize and disenchant the world. This is more of a 2T than a 4T process, but this time, you could see some awakening from the consumer materialism too. More people everyday see that the purpose of life is not to make money and buy things, but to discover, to wonder, to create beauty, to love and make friends, to resonate with higher vibrations going on, to help each other. The boomers discovered this in youth, and many of us have forgotten. But it's still there somewhere in our hearts, and younger people can appreciate and resurrect this tradition from the past awakening and all past awakenings, instead of settling for today's cynicism and narrow worldviews.

The Prophets may have been the needed outrage in youth but their place in their cycle now is ONLY culture wars.  That is just what I believe.  Either side, all sides.  You say "whoever is saying and doing the right things" but they all say the right things and then DO the the destructive things anyway.  It's totally acceptable now for any politician to stand in front of people to say one thing then do the exact opposite.  That's how the system works.

You can't say that voting is the answer because no matter what color the winner is, they are indebted to the Powers behind the scenes OR THEY WOULDN'T BE THE WINNER.  The Powers of Corporatocracy decides who wins.  I don't believe we can ask or expect elected officials to change something like gerrymandering when their Corporate Constituents are benefiting from it.

We need to believe, and know, that it can be changed, and that many politicians do the right things. Or else the 4T you don't want continues forever.

Quote:The younger people must have the moral compass to resist this evil and that's the only way it can change.  I do see a moral compass on the scene, but not yet with enough power to transform yet.  I do not think the aging boomers will join them except maybe as a photo op or a planned association to benefit their own campaigns like "LOOK we identify with these people" but then they will just go and do what they do anyway.  They are liars.  Nomads will and certainly the "helpmate" artists will. 

I disagree

Quote:As for mom & pop, no I can't see a return of that.  It's too late.  I only used that as an example of how incessant greed and abuse on the consumer was sort of held accountable because society was "smaller" and you went down the street to buy food products or a TV set from someone in the neighborhood you knew and who knew you.  There was a connection, and that lessened the ability for faceless entities of The Corporation to take advantage of everyone.  I miss when I was a kid going to the video store, I knew the owner, they knew me and my family, it was a nice experience and I was not gouged for someone's balance sheet.  But can I say the same for Netflix, for example.  They don't know me nor me them.  Or f@cebook who view all of us as chattel to be data-mined and exploited to the extreme.  When you first join up the f@acebook you are greeted by a picture of Murk Suckerburg on the screen as if he's your friend guiding you to the social gathering of your friends and family.  To me that's the same as when you call any customer service about a problem and the AUTOMATED VOICE apologizes to you that you've experienced a problem.  Seriously?  Does anyone beside me think of these things?  A ROBOT basically is apologizing to you.  That's really offensive.  For example, where I live has terrible internet service that gets "scheduled maintenance" probably 3-4 times per week between the hours of midnight and 6am.  I'm losing money because I'm constantly without the services I pay for.  I call as many times as I can and ask for a refund for the lack of service.  But only after 20 minutes of music and waiting and automated apologies designed to make you hang up so you DON'T get a refund. 

Suckerberg lol

Maybe millennials won't want to follow blue gray champions, but for a while, they will need to vote, as the younger generation says, for those elders who share their values and knowledge.

Quote:As you've said in second paragraph, it isn't about legislative reform so much as it is about PEOPLE who arrive with actual humanity.  People who have a moral compass, people that fill these "slots" who are not looking to some law or edict to force them into a better morality, for that must come from within.  I do hope this Hero Millenial generation has that trait and from what I see, I can envision that happening.

The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.

Quote:Cynicism is often a good thing.  How many past generations got frakked because they trusted the government, the voting system, the party system......... they are OK with only being provided 2 candidates for everything, and those two candidates are THE SAME PERSON usually..... both will make almost identical promises, assure people they will "work across the aisle" and then everyone is dissatisfied with the 2 choices and ALWAYS vote for the lesser of 2 evils.  I cannot remember a time when America actually voted for someone they WANTED as opposed to who they DID NOT want.  This could be said of Reagan, Clinton, Obama.......... but even with them, a huge percent of people did not want them at all even though they won by large margins.  I try not to leave those people out because they, too, are Americans and even though I may not agree with their views, they have the right to WANT a candidate instead of settling for the less of 2 worst.

Cynicism can be a good thing, to a point; until it stops people from taking action, voting and participating. Then, it's not good. An idealistic pragmatic realism accepts the obvious truth that candidates won't do everything you want them to do. Incremental progress is better than none. And though I usually vote beyond the two main parties, I recognize that in this system, any progress is better than regression, and that's the blue vs. red choice. Xers are supposed to be pragmatic. Those who are, put aside emotion and look at the facts and strategies of what will actually work.

Quote:The authors do describe a semi return to mom&pop business ideals...... I can't envision a world without walmart or home depot (not because I want them but because how hard is it to UNINSTALL such things after the fact?).  I'm a cynic in that I don't believe a global economic model can be stopped even though that is the source of so many ills in our American society.  We can't go back. 

We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve.  We can begin stopping things before they happen.  But the problem with that is no one wants to or can believe or understand the terrors waiting around the corner and do nothing to stop it.  America takes 50+ years to identify and believe a scam affecting millions.  It wasn't until 1992 and the movie JFK that people as a whole began to accept that was a plot to remove someone in power who would not cave to the Military Industrial Complex. 

Yes, we can stop it. "We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve." Yes. But if Xers such as you and beechnut are not willing to work and vote in alliance with blue boomers, it probably can't happen, because no generation can do what is needed to be done by itself without the others. Boomers still have a lot of the votes and the leadership, and there are good ones to work with.

No, your example of JFK does not fly. JFK was murdered by Oswald acting alone. All the facts on that are well proven, and open and shut. I looked into it myself very thoroughly. No case was ever more clear-cut. This was the granddaddy of today's conspiracy theories, and I once believed it too. But conspiracy theories today are almost all bogus, and contribute to cynicism that is destructive. The Establishment may be bad, but it is not as bad as people think who view the world through the lens of conspiracy theories. "9-11 truth" is another one that doesn't hold up entirely. There is no need to exaggerate using conspiracy theory. The facts are bad enough by themselves. We need to learn this. There's no need to debate JFK. People can look into it for themselves quite easily.

Quote:Further, remember all those JFK documents that were supposed to be released?  They keep getting pushed back.  Why?  Because Bush The First is still alive and the Bush family of that generation (Prescott, etc) have the blood on their hands.  Believe me, when Bush The First finally expires, we will finally find the connections (they've already been found but no mainstream media will touch it) and that's what I mean when the COURSE of American evil is identified too late, nothing can be done.  Even now, no one will say that CAPITALISM is causing major problems and Crisis in America.  The Corporation came before Bush II in 2008 and basically said "if you don't give us all the money we are asking for, there will be economic collapse".  How is that different from walking into a bank with a gun and demanding all the cash? 

They got away with it. The powers that be, including Xers, have not been willing to put the greedy ones in their place. I don't know to what extent millennials will do this.

Quote:Maybe it should have been allowed to collapse (if it was even real to begin with).  And who ended up with that money?  Was it filtered down to the average worker?  No.  It was supplied to executives and politicians for their golden parachutes and for their 7th yacht docked in the island of Scorpia.  What kind of America have we become in the last 70+ years?  Our leaders have no interest in what happens to us, they blatantly steal from us.

That's true. And it is mainly the Republicans who are responsible, although some Democrats are complicit. This is a matter of politics, for sure. Political policies created all this. It was deliberate. Business is not held accountable in the Republican trickle-down ideology. It is allowed to get away with anything. Progressive Democrats favor the regulations that were taken down which do prevent this crap from happening. Yes they do.

Quote:A really cool symbolism I heard was that there used to be SLAVERY.  Humans were used as basically cattle to perform tasks so the wealthy could be wealthy.  But there was a problem.  The slave owners had to feed and house their slaves.  So an innovation was made.  There are still slaves, except now, the slaves must feed and house THEMSELVES.  This wipes a huge expense off the slave-owners' bottom line.  Ridiculous rent, unbelievable housing prices, the cost of food and clothing, etc.  The slave is still SERVING except the Master no longer has to accommodate them on-site or assist their day-to-day living.  That's some REAL shit!

True enough, I'm in agreement.

I will come back to the rest of this post because there are good arguments.  But for now:

You said: The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.

The spiritual renaissance which sought desperately to not give birth to us so they could explore their selfish dreams and sexual fantasies, and the morals that made killing us in the womb legal.  So, if you guys had it your way, we wouldn't even exist and you would be frolicking in the poppy fields into elderhood with The Doors anthology on a loop.  

Just to be clear, YOU maybe got to explore your inner discovery.  WE got fast lessons on how to use a microwave and no one cared where we were after the sun went down.  Even your intimate knowledge of your own generation and what you feel it was meant to be possibly betrays you didn't even pay attention to what you guys did to your kids in the Nomad position. 

I realize not everyone is the same.  But for the most part, you ARE all pretty much the same to a point.  It's all about YOU.  

Nomad gets the shaft from in the womb forward, Boomer blames Nomad for everything they can, Millennial can't tell the difference and Artist is too busy handjobbing the Millennial to acknowledge the others.  Yet, I'm no complainer.

The consciousness revolution of the 2T was for everyone, and remains open to everyone. It is about a fuller, richer life, and those of us in the movement believe that means finding a better life for everyone. "frolicking" and discovery of the inner life is for everyone. We did need to reduce the children we had (I "neglected" my children to such an extent that I did not have any at all), and some silent and boomer parents neglected their children too. That was the nomad's lot. I hear that, but on the other hand, it also enabled you to be more self-reliant, self-directed and pragmatic survivalists; the mark and talent of your generation. There were advantages to your plight, as well as difficulties. One advantage you had, being part of a less-numerous generation than boomers, was less competition for available jobs. That was very hard for me to deal with.

To resent what your elders did, and thereby reject the spiritual renaissance that we and others started, and that is part of a heritage that goes back millennia, is not an advantage to you though. But it's your choice whether to do that. It is all open to you, and opening to spirit does have its moral dividends too, and we wanted it for everyone. 

You correctly noted that it takes more than politics to being about a better world. I just pointed out that this requires the spiritual renaissance that you guys have rejected. It would be wise for your generation to take another look, now that you are grown and can look past your resentment of elders, just as we boomers had to do when we were grown. The only non-political means to bring the growth in moral awareness that you say we need, is to pursue this spiritual renaissance and inner discovery which, when understood, does not promote selfishness, no matter how selfish many boomers actually were and still are.

I guess these internet discussions are fun. But sadly, it rarely results in any exchange of knowledge or opening to alternative ideas or feelings. Mere words on a screen are not very convincing, and don't resonate very deeply. That is true in our dialogue. I explained why 9-11 is not the crisis, and you just re-posted your question; there you go....

[TheNomad]

(06-04-2018, 12:44 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 11:27 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 08:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 04:18 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 04:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Well maybe, but what you are saying is just what the blue boomers are saying and still stand for. We boomers knew every bit of this back in the 60s. We said all these things back then. The problem is we have been stalemated ever since, because the corporate big shots got together and installed corporate trickle-down economics into our government, and the reformers have been shoved aside ever since. So yes, blue is the right party, or green is the right party, or whoever is saying and doing the right things, and we need the gray champions to come out and be leaders along with the young champions. We need to vote, and vote to take back the system from all the rigging: the gerrymandering, the money-grubbing, the vote suppression, every bit of it. Yes, voting on the basis of real knowledge and concern, is the cure for a lot of what you mentioned. The young people like those who spoke at the March for Our Lives know this. Bernie made inequality and hyper-capitalism his issue; other candidates will as well.

I don't know if we can bring back the Mom and Pop economy and tear down all the big box stores. Maybe that's just the age we live in. But we can do a lot to make the bosses pay, and open up the economy to the little guy. I always thought it would take a spiritual renaissance as well. Then we get into the other side of life, and the whole nature of our worldviews that dehumanize and disenchant the world. This is more of a 2T than a 4T process, but this time, you could see some awakening from the consumer materialism too. More people everyday see that the purpose of life is not to make money and buy things, but to discover, to wonder, to create beauty, to love and make friends, to resonate with higher vibrations going on, to help each other. The boomers discovered this in youth, and many of us have forgotten. But it's still there somewhere in our hearts, and younger people can appreciate and resurrect this tradition from the past awakening and all past awakenings, instead of settling for today's cynicism and narrow worldviews.

The Prophets may have been the needed outrage in youth but their place in their cycle now is ONLY culture wars.  That is just what I believe.  Either side, all sides.  You say "whoever is saying and doing the right things" but they all say the right things and then DO the the destructive things anyway.  It's totally acceptable now for any politician to stand in front of people to say one thing then do the exact opposite.  That's how the system works.

You can't say that voting is the answer because no matter what color the winner is, they are indebted to the Powers behind the scenes OR THEY WOULDN'T BE THE WINNER.  The Powers of Corporatocracy decides who wins.  I don't believe we can ask or expect elected officials to change something like gerrymandering when their Corporate Constituents are benefiting from it.

We need to believe, and know, that it can be changed, and that many politicians do the right things. Or else the 4T you don't want continues forever.

Quote:The younger people must have the moral compass to resist this evil and that's the only way it can change.  I do see a moral compass on the scene, but not yet with enough power to transform yet.  I do not think the aging boomers will join them except maybe as a photo op or a planned association to benefit their own campaigns like "LOOK we identify with these people" but then they will just go and do what they do anyway.  They are liars.  Nomads will and certainly the "helpmate" artists will. 

I disagree

Quote:As for mom & pop, no I can't see a return of that.  It's too late.  I only used that as an example of how incessant greed and abuse on the consumer was sort of held accountable because society was "smaller" and you went down the street to buy food products or a TV set from someone in the neighborhood you knew and who knew you.  There was a connection, and that lessened the ability for faceless entities of The Corporation to take advantage of everyone.  I miss when I was a kid going to the video store, I knew the owner, they knew me and my family, it was a nice experience and I was not gouged for someone's balance sheet.  But can I say the same for Netflix, for example.  They don't know me nor me them.  Or f@cebook who view all of us as chattel to be data-mined and exploited to the extreme.  When you first join up the f@acebook you are greeted by a picture of Murk Suckerburg on the screen as if he's your friend guiding you to the social gathering of your friends and family.  To me that's the same as when you call any customer service about a problem and the AUTOMATED VOICE apologizes to you that you've experienced a problem.  Seriously?  Does anyone beside me think of these things?  A ROBOT basically is apologizing to you.  That's really offensive.  For example, where I live has terrible internet service that gets "scheduled maintenance" probably 3-4 times per week between the hours of midnight and 6am.  I'm losing money because I'm constantly without the services I pay for.  I call as many times as I can and ask for a refund for the lack of service.  But only after 20 minutes of music and waiting and automated apologies designed to make you hang up so you DON'T get a refund. 

Suckerberg lol

Maybe millennials won't want to follow blue gray champions, but for a while, they will need to vote, as the younger generation says, for those elders who share their values and knowledge.

Quote:As you've said in second paragraph, it isn't about legislative reform so much as it is about PEOPLE who arrive with actual humanity.  People who have a moral compass, people that fill these "slots" who are not looking to some law or edict to force them into a better morality, for that must come from within.  I do hope this Hero Millenial generation has that trait and from what I see, I can envision that happening.

The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.

Quote:Cynicism is often a good thing.  How many past generations got frakked because they trusted the government, the voting system, the party system......... they are OK with only being provided 2 candidates for everything, and those two candidates are THE SAME PERSON usually..... both will make almost identical promises, assure people they will "work across the aisle" and then everyone is dissatisfied with the 2 choices and ALWAYS vote for the lesser of 2 evils.  I cannot remember a time when America actually voted for someone they WANTED as opposed to who they DID NOT want.  This could be said of Reagan, Clinton, Obama.......... but even with them, a huge percent of people did not want them at all even though they won by large margins.  I try not to leave those people out because they, too, are Americans and even though I may not agree with their views, they have the right to WANT a candidate instead of settling for the less of 2 worst.

Cynicism can be a good thing, to a point; until it stops people from taking action, voting and participating. Then, it's not good. An idealistic pragmatic realism accepts the obvious truth that candidates won't do everything you want them to do. Incremental progress is better than none. And though I usually vote beyond the two main parties, I recognize that in this system, any progress is better than regression, and that's the blue vs. red choice. Xers are supposed to be pragmatic. Those who are, put aside emotion and look at the facts and strategies of what will actually work.

Quote:The authors do describe a semi return to mom&pop business ideals...... I can't envision a world without walmart or home depot (not because I want them but because how hard is it to UNINSTALL such things after the fact?).  I'm a cynic in that I don't believe a global economic model can be stopped even though that is the source of so many ills in our American society.  We can't go back. 

We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve.  We can begin stopping things before they happen.  But the problem with that is no one wants to or can believe or understand the terrors waiting around the corner and do nothing to stop it.  America takes 50+ years to identify and believe a scam affecting millions.  It wasn't until 1992 and the movie JFK that people as a whole began to accept that was a plot to remove someone in power who would not cave to the Military Industrial Complex. 

Yes, we can stop it. "We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve." Yes. But if Xers such as you and beechnut are not willing to work and vote in alliance with blue boomers, it probably can't happen, because no generation can do what is needed to be done by itself without the others. Boomers still have a lot of the votes and the leadership, and there are good ones to work with.

No, your example of JFK does not fly. JFK was murdered by Oswald acting alone. All the facts on that are well proven, and open and shut. I looked into it myself very thoroughly. No case was ever more clear-cut. This was the granddaddy of today's conspiracy theories, and I once believed it too. But conspiracy theories today are almost all bogus, and contribute to cynicism that is destructive. The Establishment may be bad, but it is not as bad as people think who view the world through the lens of conspiracy theories. "9-11 truth" is another one that doesn't hold up entirely. There is no need to exaggerate using conspiracy theory. The facts are bad enough by themselves. We need to learn this. There's no need to debate JFK. People can look into it for themselves quite easily.

Quote:Further, remember all those JFK documents that were supposed to be released?  They keep getting pushed back.  Why?  Because Bush The First is still alive and the Bush family of that generation (Prescott, etc) have the blood on their hands.  Believe me, when Bush The First finally expires, we will finally find the connections (they've already been found but no mainstream media will touch it) and that's what I mean when the COURSE of American evil is identified too late, nothing can be done.  Even now, no one will say that CAPITALISM is causing major problems and Crisis in America.  The Corporation came before Bush II in 2008 and basically said "if you don't give us all the money we are asking for, there will be economic collapse".  How is that different from walking into a bank with a gun and demanding all the cash? 

They got away with it. The powers that be, including Xers, have not been willing to put the greedy ones in their place. I don't know to what extent millennials will do this.

Quote:Maybe it should have been allowed to collapse (if it was even real to begin with).  And who ended up with that money?  Was it filtered down to the average worker?  No.  It was supplied to executives and politicians for their golden parachutes and for their 7th yacht docked in the island of Scorpia.  What kind of America have we become in the last 70+ years?  Our leaders have no interest in what happens to us, they blatantly steal from us.

That's true. And it is mainly the Republicans who are responsible, although some Democrats are complicit. This is a matter of politics, for sure. Political policies created all this. It was deliberate. Business is not held accountable in the Republican trickle-down ideology. It is allowed to get away with anything. Progressive Democrats favor the regulations that were taken down which do prevent this crap from happening. Yes they do.

Quote:A really cool symbolism I heard was that there used to be SLAVERY.  Humans were used as basically cattle to perform tasks so the wealthy could be wealthy.  But there was a problem.  The slave owners had to feed and house their slaves.  So an innovation was made.  There are still slaves, except now, the slaves must feed and house THEMSELVES.  This wipes a huge expense off the slave-owners' bottom line.  Ridiculous rent, unbelievable housing prices, the cost of food and clothing, etc.  The slave is still SERVING except the Master no longer has to accommodate them on-site or assist their day-to-day living.  That's some REAL shit!

True enough, I'm in agreement.

I will come back to the rest of this post because there are good arguments.  But for now:

You said: The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.

The spiritual renaissance which sought desperately to not give birth to us so they could explore their selfish dreams and sexual fantasies, and the morals that made killing us in the womb legal.  So, if you guys had it your way, we wouldn't even exist and you would be frolicking in the poppy fields into elderhood with The Doors anthology on a loop.  

Just to be clear, YOU maybe got to explore your inner discovery.  WE got fast lessons on how to use a microwave and no one cared where we were after the sun went down.  Even your intimate knowledge of your own generation and what you feel it was meant to be possibly betrays you didn't even pay attention to what you guys did to your kids in the Nomad position. 

I realize not everyone is the same.  But for the most part, you ARE all pretty much the same to a point.  It's all about YOU.  

Nomad gets the shaft from in the womb forward, Boomer blames Nomad for everything they can, Millennial can't tell the difference and Artist is too busy handjobbing the Millennial to acknowledge the others.  Yet, I'm no complainer.

The consciousness revolution of the 2T was for everyone, and remains open to everyone. It is about a fuller, richer life, and those of us in the movement believe that means finding a better life for everyone. "frolicking" and discovery of the inner life is for everyone. We did need to reduce the children we had (I "neglected" my children to such an extent that I did not have any at all), and some silent and boomer parents neglected their children too. That was the nomad's lot. I hear that, but on the other hand, it also enabled you to be more self-reliant, self-directed and pragmatic survivalists; the mark and talent of your generation. There were advantages to your plight, as well as difficulties. One advantage you had, being part of a less-numerous generation than boomers, was less competition for available jobs. That was very hard for me to deal with.

To resent what your elders did, and thereby reject the spiritual renaissance that we and others started, and that is part of a heritage that goes back millennia, is not an advantage to you though. But it's your choice whether to do that. It is all open to you, and opening to spirit does have its moral dividends too, and we wanted it for everyone. 

You correctly noted that it takes more than politics to being about a better world. I just pointed out that this requires the spiritual renaissance that you guys have rejected. It would be wise for your generation to take another look, now that you are grown and can look past your resentment of elders, just as we boomers had to do when we were grown. The only non-political means to bring the growth in moral awareness that you say we need, is to pursue this spiritual renaissance and inner discovery which, when understood, does not promote selfishness, no matter how selfish many boomers actually were and still are.

I guess these internet discussions are fun. But sadly, it rarely results in any exchange of knowledge or opening to alternative ideas or feelings. Mere words on a screen are not very convincing, and don't resonate very deeply. That is true in our dialogue. I explained why 9-11 is not the crisis, and you just re-posted your question; there you go....

I need to be sick more often to be seeing posts!  But if you responded to 911 no crisis I must have missed it? will look.

But I gotta say: That was the nomad's lot. I hear that, but on the other hand

That is the Nomad's life.  "WE HEAR YOU, BUT...".  Then you want to include everyone into the renaissance.  I have no ill-will for positive thinking nor for realizing what about my childhood was awesome and what sucked.  But it's amazing the glossing over and the "well, just look on the bright side" that doesn't happen to millennial children.

Also, I'm for real.  You can take every word on the screen for what I'm about.  My written word skills are SO exceptional as to convey the
version of my best self and with a communication level far exceeding most. 

When I first looked, I wanted to agree with the renaissance idea being an answer to this evil we see in Corporatacracy and super-wealthy kin scheming to stay up there at our expense.  But according to the Strauss & Howe ideas it is the opposite.  Prophets are a dark-mirror image of Heroes.  It is the very inner renaissance of the prophets which bring so much entropy and doom.  The Heroes are NOT inner-directed souls on a path to bio-enlightenment, they are outer-directed souls on a path to systemic transformation.

So, you may be confused (with all respect, sir).

 

[TheNomad]

I explained why 9-11 is not the crisis, and you just re-posted your question; there you go....

--------------------------------------------------------------

I looked back in the posts and did not see you addressing that 911 was not part of the crisis and why.

[Eric the Green]

(06-04-2018, 03:42 AM)TheNomad Wrote: I explained why 9-11 is not the crisis, and you just re-posted your question; there you go....

--------------------------------------------------------------

I looked back in the posts and did not see you addressing that 911 was not part of the crisis and why.

http://generational-theory.com/forum/thr...l#pid36646

I for one already answered it (there as an earlier post of mine also on this). There was no crisis mood, and no dedication of the people to a total war. Just some bombing of a distant land, and relying on a native alliance to topple a terrorist government. And then that was followed by a phony war that never should have happened. Since business went on as usual, and only volunteer soldiers went to the other side of the world to fight a war that only the president and his fellow conspirators wanted, there was no cultural impact on the Homeland. You say there was, because of plane boarding inspections and so on, but airplane travel went on anyway and a lot of us don't fly in airplanes.

I predicted the wars for the time they happened, being the prophet that I am. I knew what was coming, and I knew it would not be a crisis catalyst. Remember my point that a war does not equal a crisis. Wars have happened in almost all turnings. You haven't acknowledged that fact, and as well the fact that war was just business as usual since world war II for the USA and the MIC. There was definitely nothing new about yet another unnecessary war given us by the MIC. We had just had decades of it. So what was so special about just another one? Remember Vietnam? 

I don't know how big the crisis war will be. As I mentioned, in most 4Ts, it has been big. But there was one exception, so perhaps, we can hope, our time (which has a similar place on the larger cycle of civilization as that other one) might be smaller too. But on the other hand, from the cyclic indicators I see, it is likely to be both a war with other nation(s) and a war at home.

You are well up on the problems of our time; you seem very aware of what the powers that be are doing to us. You are concerned, and your facts and values are right, from my point of view. If what is happening now just continues, then there will be no first turning, and no USA for much longer. The powers that be will just keep on screwing us, and that will be that. 

Something must intervene. You can call that a 1T if you want, but I think most S&H fans would call that a 4T, just like the American and French Revolutions were a 4T and the civil war rebellion was a 4T. The intention of many of those who want change today is non-violence. But it may turn out that the right-wing fanatics resort to violence though; we can't rule that out. We can both hope that the next 10 years, which I call the second half of our 4T, and you call a 1T, will see some great and drastic changes, with a minimum of bloodshed. 

Of course, if the gun violence and mass shootings don't stop, then that will be the violence anyway. Without gun reform, that will happen, and it will get worse. And if the reformers succeed in stopping that violence through better laws, and the reactionaries react violently to this gun control, accusing the government of coming for their guns, then that will be the violence. It could be that we are due for more, no matter what. 

The human condition is still primitive, I'm afraid. My own experience with people and with our country doesn't give me much hope it can be avoided; whether a revolution happens, or whether we just enter a 1T and give up and go silent and quiescent like the Silent Generation (Gen Z being their recurrence), and just let the reactionary and big-business authorities have their way. Violence will happen either way. That does not mean that I "want" it. And the same thing for the mal-distribution of wealth in this country, and the great climate and pollution crisis; as well as the penchant for the MIC to get us into still more wars we don't want like those after 9-11. If we don't want all this, then we need to see some action, not a 1T surrender to conformity and acceptance of whatever the authorities want.

[Eric the Green]

(06-04-2018, 03:34 AM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 12:44 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 11:27 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 08:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 04:18 PM)TheNomad Wrote: The Prophets may have been the needed outrage in youth but their place in their cycle now is ONLY culture wars.  That is just what I believe.  Either side, all sides.  You say "whoever is saying and doing the right things" but they all say the right things and then DO the the destructive things anyway.  It's totally acceptable now for any politician to stand in front of people to say one thing then do the exact opposite.  That's how the system works.

You can't say that voting is the answer because no matter what color the winner is, they are indebted to the Powers behind the scenes OR THEY WOULDN'T BE THE WINNER.  The Powers of Corporatocracy decides who wins.  I don't believe we can ask or expect elected officials to change something like gerrymandering when their Corporate Constituents are benefiting from it.

We need to believe, and know, that it can be changed, and that many politicians do the right things. Or else the 4T you don't want continues forever.

Quote:The younger people must have the moral compass to resist this evil and that's the only way it can change.  I do see a moral compass on the scene, but not yet with enough power to transform yet.  I do not think the aging boomers will join them except maybe as a photo op or a planned association to benefit their own campaigns like "LOOK we identify with these people" but then they will just go and do what they do anyway.  They are liars.  Nomads will and certainly the "helpmate" artists will. 

I disagree

Quote:As for mom & pop, no I can't see a return of that.  It's too late.  I only used that as an example of how incessant greed and abuse on the consumer was sort of held accountable because society was "smaller" and you went down the street to buy food products or a TV set from someone in the neighborhood you knew and who knew you.  There was a connection, and that lessened the ability for faceless entities of The Corporation to take advantage of everyone.  I miss when I was a kid going to the video store, I knew the owner, they knew me and my family, it was a nice experience and I was not gouged for someone's balance sheet.  But can I say the same for Netflix, for example.  They don't know me nor me them.  Or f@cebook who view all of us as chattel to be data-mined and exploited to the extreme.  When you first join up the f@acebook you are greeted by a picture of Murk Suckerburg on the screen as if he's your friend guiding you to the social gathering of your friends and family.  To me that's the same as when you call any customer service about a problem and the AUTOMATED VOICE apologizes to you that you've experienced a problem.  Seriously?  Does anyone beside me think of these things?  A ROBOT basically is apologizing to you.  That's really offensive.  For example, where I live has terrible internet service that gets "scheduled maintenance" probably 3-4 times per week between the hours of midnight and 6am.  I'm losing money because I'm constantly without the services I pay for.  I call as many times as I can and ask for a refund for the lack of service.  But only after 20 minutes of music and waiting and automated apologies designed to make you hang up so you DON'T get a refund. 

Suckerberg lol

Maybe millennials won't want to follow blue gray champions, but for a while, they will need to vote, as the younger generation says, for those elders who share their values and knowledge.

Quote:As you've said in second paragraph, it isn't about legislative reform so much as it is about PEOPLE who arrive with actual humanity.  People who have a moral compass, people that fill these "slots" who are not looking to some law or edict to force them into a better morality, for that must come from within.  I do hope this Hero Millenial generation has that trait and from what I see, I can envision that happening.

The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.

Quote:Cynicism is often a good thing.  How many past generations got frakked because they trusted the government, the voting system, the party system......... they are OK with only being provided 2 candidates for everything, and those two candidates are THE SAME PERSON usually..... both will make almost identical promises, assure people they will "work across the aisle" and then everyone is dissatisfied with the 2 choices and ALWAYS vote for the lesser of 2 evils.  I cannot remember a time when America actually voted for someone they WANTED as opposed to who they DID NOT want.  This could be said of Reagan, Clinton, Obama.......... but even with them, a huge percent of people did not want them at all even though they won by large margins.  I try not to leave those people out because they, too, are Americans and even though I may not agree with their views, they have the right to WANT a candidate instead of settling for the less of 2 worst.

Cynicism can be a good thing, to a point; until it stops people from taking action, voting and participating. Then, it's not good. An idealistic pragmatic realism accepts the obvious truth that candidates won't do everything you want them to do. Incremental progress is better than none. And though I usually vote beyond the two main parties, I recognize that in this system, any progress is better than regression, and that's the blue vs. red choice. Xers are supposed to be pragmatic. Those who are, put aside emotion and look at the facts and strategies of what will actually work.

Quote:The authors do describe a semi return to mom&pop business ideals...... I can't envision a world without walmart or home depot (not because I want them but because how hard is it to UNINSTALL such things after the fact?).  I'm a cynic in that I don't believe a global economic model can be stopped even though that is the source of so many ills in our American society.  We can't go back. 

We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve.  We can begin stopping things before they happen.  But the problem with that is no one wants to or can believe or understand the terrors waiting around the corner and do nothing to stop it.  America takes 50+ years to identify and believe a scam affecting millions.  It wasn't until 1992 and the movie JFK that people as a whole began to accept that was a plot to remove someone in power who would not cave to the Military Industrial Complex. 

Yes, we can stop it. "We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve." Yes. But if Xers such as you and beechnut are not willing to work and vote in alliance with blue boomers, it probably can't happen, because no generation can do what is needed to be done by itself without the others. Boomers still have a lot of the votes and the leadership, and there are good ones to work with.

No, your example of JFK does not fly. JFK was murdered by Oswald acting alone. All the facts on that are well proven, and open and shut. I looked into it myself very thoroughly. No case was ever more clear-cut. This was the granddaddy of today's conspiracy theories, and I once believed it too. But conspiracy theories today are almost all bogus, and contribute to cynicism that is destructive. The Establishment may be bad, but it is not as bad as people think who view the world through the lens of conspiracy theories. "9-11 truth" is another one that doesn't hold up entirely. There is no need to exaggerate using conspiracy theory. The facts are bad enough by themselves. We need to learn this. There's no need to debate JFK. People can look into it for themselves quite easily.

Quote:Further, remember all those JFK documents that were supposed to be released?  They keep getting pushed back.  Why?  Because Bush The First is still alive and the Bush family of that generation (Prescott, etc) have the blood on their hands.  Believe me, when Bush The First finally expires, we will finally find the connections (they've already been found but no mainstream media will touch it) and that's what I mean when the COURSE of American evil is identified too late, nothing can be done.  Even now, no one will say that CAPITALISM is causing major problems and Crisis in America.  The Corporation came before Bush II in 2008 and basically said "if you don't give us all the money we are asking for, there will be economic collapse".  How is that different from walking into a bank with a gun and demanding all the cash? 

They got away with it. The powers that be, including Xers, have not been willing to put the greedy ones in their place. I don't know to what extent millennials will do this.

Quote:Maybe it should have been allowed to collapse (if it was even real to begin with).  And who ended up with that money?  Was it filtered down to the average worker?  No.  It was supplied to executives and politicians for their golden parachutes and for their 7th yacht docked in the island of Scorpia.  What kind of America have we become in the last 70+ years?  Our leaders have no interest in what happens to us, they blatantly steal from us.

That's true. And it is mainly the Republicans who are responsible, although some Democrats are complicit. This is a matter of politics, for sure. Political policies created all this. It was deliberate. Business is not held accountable in the Republican trickle-down ideology. It is allowed to get away with anything. Progressive Democrats favor the regulations that were taken down which do prevent this crap from happening. Yes they do.

Quote:A really cool symbolism I heard was that there used to be SLAVERY.  Humans were used as basically cattle to perform tasks so the wealthy could be wealthy.  But there was a problem.  The slave owners had to feed and house their slaves.  So an innovation was made.  There are still slaves, except now, the slaves must feed and house THEMSELVES.  This wipes a huge expense off the slave-owners' bottom line.  Ridiculous rent, unbelievable housing prices, the cost of food and clothing, etc.  The slave is still SERVING except the Master no longer has to accommodate them on-site or assist their day-to-day living.  That's some REAL shit!

True enough, I'm in agreement.

I will come back to the rest of this post because there are good arguments.  But for now:

You said: The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.

The spiritual renaissance which sought desperately to not give birth to us so they could explore their selfish dreams and sexual fantasies, and the morals that made killing us in the womb legal.  So, if you guys had it your way, we wouldn't even exist and you would be frolicking in the poppy fields into elderhood with The Doors anthology on a loop.  

Just to be clear, YOU maybe got to explore your inner discovery.  WE got fast lessons on how to use a microwave and no one cared where we were after the sun went down.  Even your intimate knowledge of your own generation and what you feel it was meant to be possibly betrays you didn't even pay attention to what you guys did to your kids in the Nomad position. 

I realize not everyone is the same.  But for the most part, you ARE all pretty much the same to a point.  It's all about YOU.  

Nomad gets the shaft from in the womb forward, Boomer blames Nomad for everything they can, Millennial can't tell the difference and Artist is too busy handjobbing the Millennial to acknowledge the others.  Yet, I'm no complainer.

The consciousness revolution of the 2T was for everyone, and remains open to everyone. It is about a fuller, richer life, and those of us in the movement believe that means finding a better life for everyone. "frolicking" and discovery of the inner life is for everyone. We did need to reduce the children we had (I "neglected" my children to such an extent that I did not have any at all), and some silent and boomer parents neglected their children too. That was the nomad's lot. I hear that, but on the other hand, it also enabled you to be more self-reliant, self-directed and pragmatic survivalists; the mark and talent of your generation. There were advantages to your plight, as well as difficulties. One advantage you had, being part of a less-numerous generation than boomers, was less competition for available jobs. That was very hard for me to deal with.

To resent what your elders did, and thereby reject the spiritual renaissance that we and others started, and that is part of a heritage that goes back millennia, is not an advantage to you though. But it's your choice whether to do that. It is all open to you, and opening to spirit does have its moral dividends too, and we wanted it for everyone. 

You correctly noted that it takes more than politics to being about a better world. I just pointed out that this requires the spiritual renaissance that you guys have rejected. It would be wise for your generation to take another look, now that you are grown and can look past your resentment of elders, just as we boomers had to do when we were grown. The only non-political means to bring the growth in moral awareness that you say we need, is to pursue this spiritual renaissance and inner discovery which, when understood, does not promote selfishness, no matter how selfish many boomers actually were and still are.

I guess these internet discussions are fun. But sadly, it rarely results in any exchange of knowledge or opening to alternative ideas or feelings. Mere words on a screen are not very convincing, and don't resonate very deeply. That is true in our dialogue. I explained why 9-11 is not the crisis, and you just re-posted your question; there you go....

I need to be sick more often to be seeing posts!  But if you responded to 911 no crisis I must have missed it? will look.

But I gotta say: That was the nomad's lot. I hear that, but on the other hand

That is the Nomad's life.  "WE HEAR YOU, BUT...".  Then you want to include everyone into the renaissance.  I have no ill-will for positive thinking nor for realizing what about my childhood was awesome and what sucked.  But it's amazing the glossing over and the "well, just look on the bright side" that doesn't happen to millennial children.

Also, I'm for real.  You can take every word on the screen for what I'm about.  My written word skills are SO exceptional as to convey the
version of my best self and with a communication level far exceeding most. 

When I first looked, I wanted to agree with the renaissance idea being an answer to this evil we see in Corporatacracy and super-wealthy kin scheming to stay up there at our expense.  But according to the Strauss & Howe ideas it is the opposite.  Prophets are a dark-mirror image of Heroes.  It is the very inner renaissance of the prophets which bring so much entropy and doom.  The Heroes are NOT inner-directed souls on a path to bio-enlightenment, they are outer-directed souls on a path to systemic transformation.

So, you may be confused (with all respect, sir).

 

S&H did not say prophets are a dark mirror image of heroes. They say all archetypes are necessary to the process. Prophet idealism provides the direction and blueprint for reform and change during the 4T. That blueprint is there for us. Yes, that's correct about Heroes. They are outer-directed and will be primarily interested in systemic transformation. And that will be about politics. The majority of what is needed to change the corporatacracy now is political. Even so, the next 10 years will not transform it entirely; It will still be there. I hope and expect some reforms which will set our political process back on the right path. During the 1T these reforms will be consolidated and extended. But the next Second Turning, when the Alpha Prophets come of age and Gen Z is in midlife, will bring back the consciousness revolution both outwardly and inwardly, and it will fulfill many of the goals of the sixties revolution and further extend the spiritual renaissance inwardly and the green revolution outwardly.

S&H do point to the consciousness revolution as having the side effect of too much inner focus and narcissism. But that is because American culture is not able to understand and pursue inward transformation as it truly is. Our culture is too commercial, materialist and self-centered to begin with, for it not to coopt a spiritual renaissance. But there were many boomers and other participants who pursued it well. And they became good, supportive parents to millennials. It has brought transformation to a degree; just not enough. That just means it must continue. In a healthy society, spirituality continues through all turnings, whereas in ours, so far, it has only happened in 2Ts, with only non-spiritual traditional religion happening in the other turnings. 

The consciousness revolution is the only path to putting our moral and inner lives on a higher plane. Our nation needs to become a spiritual and not a materialist one. You say politics alone can't transform the corporatocracy. That is true; but then the only alternative is to transform ourselves and our worldview; the way we perceive ourselves and the world. There's a third alternative though; and that's just to be cynical and let things unfold the way they are going now. I don't see that as resulting in anything but the rapid decline and fall of our society. Gen Xers need to look beyond resentment and critique of the consciousness revolution, and instead embrace it and what it offers both outwardly and inwardly.

If millennials are not told to look on the bright side, it's because they naturally do, and Xers don't. The millennials got more support in childhood than Xers did. So yes, Xers need to cultivate just enough hope and idealism to be able to contribute their pragmatic and managerial talents to working through the crisis and emerging into the 1T which they will oversee.

It's hard to believe that we prophets will be over the hill and start disappearing just 10 years from now. Boomers to me will always be the "new generation," and I will always see them as dedicated to transforming the world, even if most of us have had our inspiration and dedication to higher consciousness and social and economic idealism just dry up and fade away. But I think some of us will continue to be young in heart and body, and keep on contributing and helping to lead the way forward in the 1T to come in just 10 years.

[pbrower2a]

(06-04-2018, 09:27 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (to Nomad)

S&H did not say prophets are a dark mirror image of heroes. They say all archetypes are necessary to the process. Prophet idealism provides the direction and blueprint for reform and change during the 4T. That blueprint is there for us. Yes, that's correct about Heroes. They are outer-directed and will be primarily interested in systemic transformation. And that will be about politics. The majority of what is needed to change the corporatacracy now is political. Even so, the next 10 years will not transform it entirely; It will still be there. I hope and expect some reforms which will set our political process back on the right path. During the 1T these reforms will be consolidated and extended. But the next Second Turning, when the Alpha Prophets come of age and Gen Z is in midlife, will bring back the consciousness revolution both outwardly and inwardly, and it will fulfill many of the goals of the sixties revolution and further extend the spiritual renaissance inwardly and the green revolution outwardly.

Of course, for this Turning the Boom generation must take the usual roles of Prophets in a Crisis Era and do those roles approipriately. That may mean that something other than a right-wing Boomer cabal chooses which Boomer agenda prevails. One part of the Crisis going well is that younger generations do not cast off the whole generation so that the younger generations can act without scruples and use the Crisis to settle international and ethnic scores. That has been tried, and the most blatant recent exercise of such ended in a fetid bunker in Berlin.

Second, the consensus must coalesce upon a benign, constructive agenda. As Boomers' share of the electorate and as holders of high public office diminish due to age (death, debility, and perhaps scandal), then so will the ability of Boomers to foist something nasty upon younger generations. Even if Boomers end up enunciating the high principles (Trump, who has no principles other than glorification and indulgence of himself, will not succeed at that role), X and Millennial adults will vote on it. X will be the administrators and Millennial adults will provide the muscle and detail work. America must get beyond the exclusive, hostile camps that made a mess of the Civil War crisis.

Quote:S&H do point to the consciousness revolution as having the side effect of too much inner focus and narcissism. But that is because American culture is not able to understand and pursue inward transformation as it truly is. Our culture is too commercial, materialist and self-centered to begin with, for it not to coopt a spiritual renaissance. But there were many boomers and other participants who pursued it well. And they became good, supportive parents to millennials. It has brought transformation to a degree; just not enough. That just means it must continue. In a healthy society, spirituality continues through all turnings, whereas in ours, so far, it has only happened in 2Ts, with only non-spiritual traditional religion happening in the other turnings. 

The two certifiably awful Boomer Presidents (Dubya and Trump) seem not to have had much involvement in any Consciousness Revolution. But remember that neither X not Millennial generations will seek any voyage to the Interior. X remembers the Consciousness Revolution as the "sexual revolution" which hurt children badly. The Millennial Generation is completely unsuited to facing any sort of Consciousness Revolution -- and Boomers know this.  Spirituality may be of great importance as a means of finding suitable principles that practical and dutiful adults can use -- but it will be Boomers who have found something universal in some sort of spiritual quest.

Quote:The consciousness revolution is the only path to putting our moral and inner lives on a higher plane. Our nation needs to become a spiritual and not a materialist one. You say politics alone can't transform the corporatocracy. That is true; but then the only alternative is to transform ourselves and our worldview; the way we perceive ourselves and the world. There's a third alternative though; and that's just to be cynical and let things unfold the way they are going now. I don't see that as resulting in anything but the rapid decline and fall of our society. Gen Xers need to look beyond resentment and critique of the consciousness revolution, and instead embrace it and what it offers both outwardly and inwardly.

Not quite. People can decide upon certain economic and social realities based on pragmatism. I expect the idea that the whole of humanity exists to enrich, indulge, and obey American economic and bureaucratic elites a sure failure. Maybe it will take another market crash such as that of 2008 to scare even our economic elites. Corporatocracy, as you call it, has shown a tendency to cause more pain and suffering, things that do not go well in democratic politics. Of course, should America try to force some economic fascism where it is unwelcome, then America stands to find itself with few allies and surprisingly-powerful enemies.

We will see many signals in November of this year.

Quote:If millennials are not told to look on the bright side, it's because they naturally do, and Xers don't. The millennials got more support in childhood than Xers did. So yes, Xers need to cultivate just enough hope and idealism to be able to contribute their pragmatic and managerial talents to working through the crisis and emerging into the 1T which they will oversee.

Civic adults cultivate ethics -- not ideals.  Reactive adults look for what works.

Quote:It's hard to believe that we prophets will be over the hill and start disappearing just 10 years from now. Boomers to me will always be the "new generation," and I will always see them as dedicated to transforming the world, even if most of us have had our inspiration and dedication to higher consciousness and social and economic idealism just dry up and fade away. But I think some of us will continue to be young in heart and body, and keep on contributing and helping to lead the way forward in the 1T to come in just 10 years.

Ten years from mow the oldest Prophets will have just passed 85, and the youngest Boomers will be in their late sixties. Top be sure, that's plenty of time left for offering visionary solutions to seemingly-intractable problems.

[David Horn]

(06-01-2018, 08:42 PM)TheNomad Wrote: I'm perplexed by the fact that no one seems to acknowledge 911 as any part of the crisis whatsoever. Why is that? I'm starting to think some in this forum simply maybe didn't experience the aftermath of it or simply do not understand the implications of all that happened because of that. Everyone seems to agree that 2008 and the financial ruins is the crisis and yet we're waiting for War the second part of a crisis. Or that the order of the events of the crisis are wrong in that there must be a financial woe and only after that some big war. However we had those two things within six or seven years of each other we had Wars going on the same time as we had the financial crisis.

What's going on with that?  Every time I ask that question no one seems to answer.

I'll say again it is almost as if the wars and complications of the aftermath of the wars were not large enough for significant enough to be considered a crisis element. And for anyone who believes that I want to hear what you have to say. I want to hear people say that the 911 wars and cultural impact in the Homeland were not significant enough to be considered part of the crisis.

The main reason 911 doesn't get the nod as the Crisis Trigger has to do with timing.  The generations were not ready to take on their next roles, so they continued to act in their then current ones.  That the response had 3T stamped all over it just makes the case stronger.  After all, we didn't mobilize or even restart the draft.  We shopped, as instructed by GWB and his minions.  We sent the Praetorian Guard off to war, then decided that we needed a different, less ideological war, so we invaded Iraq.  We took neither war seriously either, which is why we're still engaged 17 years later.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we cut taxes and started a new entitlement program: Medicare Part D.  We ignored Hurricane Katrina until it swamped New Orleans, then did too little to put it back together (a pattern we are following yet again today).  Where in all of this is a 4T?  It's not even a competent 3T.

GWB should have been the last 3T President, mucking things up for others to fix.  Because he was handed a huge international incident (not a threat … al Qaida  was never that) that had to be addressed, he became a quasi Crisis President.  That's all.

[pbrower2a]

(06-04-2018, 11:51 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-01-2018, 08:42 PM)TheNomad Wrote: I'm perplexed by the fact that no one seems to acknowledge 911 as any part of the crisis whatsoever. Why is that? I'm starting to think some in this forum simply maybe didn't experience the aftermath of it or simply do not understand the implications of all that happened because of that. Everyone seems to agree that 2008 and the financial ruins is the crisis and yet we're waiting for War the second part of a crisis. Or that the order of the events of the crisis are wrong in that there must be a financial woe and only after that some big war. However we had those two things within six or seven years of each other we had Wars going on the same time as we had the financial crisis.

What's going on with that?  Every time I ask that question no one seems to answer.

I'll say again it is almost as if the wars and complications of the aftermath of the wars were not large enough for significant enough to be considered a crisis element. And for anyone who believes that I want to hear what you have to say. I want to hear people say that the 911 wars and cultural impact in the Homeland were not significant enough to be considered part of the crisis.

The main reason 911 doesn't get the nod as the Crisis Trigger has to do with timing.  The generations were not ready to take on their next roles, so they continued to act in their then current ones.  That the response had 3T stamped all over it just makes the case stronger.  After all, we didn't mobilize or even restart the draft.  We shopped, as instructed by GWB and his minions.  We sent the Praetorian Guard off to war, then decided that we needed a different, less ideological war, so we invaded Iraq.  We took neither war seriously either, which is why we're still engaged 17 years later.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we cut taxes and started a new entitlement program: Medicare Part D.  We ignored Hurricane Katrina until it swamped New Orleans, then did too little to put it back together (a pattern we are following yet again today).  Where in all of this is a 4T?  It's not even a competent 3T.

GWB should have been the last 3T President, mucking things up for others to fix.  Because he was handed a huge international incident (not a threat … al Qaida  was never that) that had to be addressed, he became a quasi Crisis President.  That's all.

Illustration:

Generational type           Crash of '21/anarchist purge

Gilded (Civic*)                 79-99  John D. Rockefeller II, Oliver Wendell Holmes
Progressive (Adaptive)    62-78  John Philip Sousa, Woodrow Wilson
Missionary (Idealist)         39-61  Henry Ford, Franklin Roosevelt
Lost (Reactive)               21-38  Harry Truman, George Gershwin
GI (Civic)                          0-20  Walt Disney, Lou Gehrig

Generational type           Dot-com collapse. 9/11 attack

GI (Civic)                      77-100  Jimmy Carter, Thurgood Marshall
Silent (Adaptive)             59-76  Clint Eastwood, Nancy Pelosi
Boom (Idealist)               41-58  George W. Bush, Donald Trump
X (Reactive)                   19-40  Barack Obama, Mike Pence
GI (Civic)                          0-18  Justin Verlander, Scarlett Johansson

*by then the Gilded Generation was operating much like a Civic generation, at least in the North

In both cases the generational constellation looks like the middle half or slightly later in a 3T/Unraveling/Degeneracy. Heck, there are significant numbers of living Civic (or Civic-like) adults sticking around, and an Adaptive generation is still hanging onto some influence. Much potential for social division is still possible because the Idealist generation has yet to grow out of its age of stilettos-out debates.

[TheNomad]

(06-04-2018, 09:27 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 03:34 AM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 12:44 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 11:27 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 08:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We need to believe, and know, that it can be changed, and that many politicians do the right things. Or else the 4T you don't want continues forever.


I disagree


Suckerberg lol

Maybe millennials won't want to follow blue gray champions, but for a while, they will need to vote, as the younger generation says, for those elders who share their values and knowledge.


The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.


Cynicism can be a good thing, to a point; until it stops people from taking action, voting and participating. Then, it's not good. An idealistic pragmatic realism accepts the obvious truth that candidates won't do everything you want them to do. Incremental progress is better than none. And though I usually vote beyond the two main parties, I recognize that in this system, any progress is better than regression, and that's the blue vs. red choice. Xers are supposed to be pragmatic. Those who are, put aside emotion and look at the facts and strategies of what will actually work.


Yes, we can stop it. "We can, however, look forward and finally get ahead of the curve." Yes. But if Xers such as you and beechnut are not willing to work and vote in alliance with blue boomers, it probably can't happen, because no generation can do what is needed to be done by itself without the others. Boomers still have a lot of the votes and the leadership, and there are good ones to work with.

No, your example of JFK does not fly. JFK was murdered by Oswald acting alone. All the facts on that are well proven, and open and shut. I looked into it myself very thoroughly. No case was ever more clear-cut. This was the granddaddy of today's conspiracy theories, and I once believed it too. But conspiracy theories today are almost all bogus, and contribute to cynicism that is destructive. The Establishment may be bad, but it is not as bad as people think who view the world through the lens of conspiracy theories. "9-11 truth" is another one that doesn't hold up entirely. There is no need to exaggerate using conspiracy theory. The facts are bad enough by themselves. We need to learn this. There's no need to debate JFK. People can look into it for themselves quite easily.


They got away with it. The powers that be, including Xers, have not been willing to put the greedy ones in their place. I don't know to what extent millennials will do this.


That's true. And it is mainly the Republicans who are responsible, although some Democrats are complicit. This is a matter of politics, for sure. Political policies created all this. It was deliberate. Business is not held accountable in the Republican trickle-down ideology. It is allowed to get away with anything. Progressive Democrats favor the regulations that were taken down which do prevent this crap from happening. Yes they do.


True enough, I'm in agreement.

I will come back to the rest of this post because there are good arguments.  But for now:

You said: The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.

The spiritual renaissance which sought desperately to not give birth to us so they could explore their selfish dreams and sexual fantasies, and the morals that made killing us in the womb legal.  So, if you guys had it your way, we wouldn't even exist and you would be frolicking in the poppy fields into elderhood with The Doors anthology on a loop.  

Just to be clear, YOU maybe got to explore your inner discovery.  WE got fast lessons on how to use a microwave and no one cared where we were after the sun went down.  Even your intimate knowledge of your own generation and what you feel it was meant to be possibly betrays you didn't even pay attention to what you guys did to your kids in the Nomad position. 

I realize not everyone is the same.  But for the most part, you ARE all pretty much the same to a point.  It's all about YOU.  

Nomad gets the shaft from in the womb forward, Boomer blames Nomad for everything they can, Millennial can't tell the difference and Artist is too busy handjobbing the Millennial to acknowledge the others.  Yet, I'm no complainer.

The consciousness revolution of the 2T was for everyone, and remains open to everyone. It is about a fuller, richer life, and those of us in the movement believe that means finding a better life for everyone. "frolicking" and discovery of the inner life is for everyone. We did need to reduce the children we had (I "neglected" my children to such an extent that I did not have any at all), and some silent and boomer parents neglected their children too. That was the nomad's lot. I hear that, but on the other hand, it also enabled you to be more self-reliant, self-directed and pragmatic survivalists; the mark and talent of your generation. There were advantages to your plight, as well as difficulties. One advantage you had, being part of a less-numerous generation than boomers, was less competition for available jobs. That was very hard for me to deal with.

To resent what your elders did, and thereby reject the spiritual renaissance that we and others started, and that is part of a heritage that goes back millennia, is not an advantage to you though. But it's your choice whether to do that. It is all open to you, and opening to spirit does have its moral dividends too, and we wanted it for everyone. 

You correctly noted that it takes more than politics to being about a better world. I just pointed out that this requires the spiritual renaissance that you guys have rejected. It would be wise for your generation to take another look, now that you are grown and can look past your resentment of elders, just as we boomers had to do when we were grown. The only non-political means to bring the growth in moral awareness that you say we need, is to pursue this spiritual renaissance and inner discovery which, when understood, does not promote selfishness, no matter how selfish many boomers actually were and still are.

I guess these internet discussions are fun. But sadly, it rarely results in any exchange of knowledge or opening to alternative ideas or feelings. Mere words on a screen are not very convincing, and don't resonate very deeply. That is true in our dialogue. I explained why 9-11 is not the crisis, and you just re-posted your question; there you go....

I need to be sick more often to be seeing posts!  But if you responded to 911 no crisis I must have missed it? will look.

But I gotta say: That was the nomad's lot. I hear that, but on the other hand

That is the Nomad's life.  "WE HEAR YOU, BUT...".  Then you want to include everyone into the renaissance.  I have no ill-will for positive thinking nor for realizing what about my childhood was awesome and what sucked.  But it's amazing the glossing over and the "well, just look on the bright side" that doesn't happen to millennial children.

Also, I'm for real.  You can take every word on the screen for what I'm about.  My written word skills are SO exceptional as to convey the
version of my best self and with a communication level far exceeding most. 

When I first looked, I wanted to agree with the renaissance idea being an answer to this evil we see in Corporatacracy and super-wealthy kin scheming to stay up there at our expense.  But according to the Strauss & Howe ideas it is the opposite.  Prophets are a dark-mirror image of Heroes.  It is the very inner renaissance of the prophets which bring so much entropy and doom.  The Heroes are NOT inner-directed souls on a path to bio-enlightenment, they are outer-directed souls on a path to systemic transformation.

So, you may be confused (with all respect, sir).

 

S&H did not say prophets are a dark mirror image of heroes. They say all archetypes are necessary to the process. Prophet idealism provides the direction and blueprint for reform and change during the 4T. That blueprint is there for us. Yes, that's correct about Heroes. They are outer-directed and will be primarily interested in systemic transformation. And that will be about politics. The majority of what is needed to change the corporatacracy now is political. Even so, the next 10 years will not transform it entirely; It will still be there. I hope and expect some reforms which will set our political process back on the right path. During the 1T these reforms will be consolidated and extended. But the next Second Turning, when the Alpha Prophets come of age and Gen Z is in midlife, will bring back the consciousness revolution both outwardly and inwardly, and it will fulfill many of the goals of the sixties revolution and further extend the spiritual renaissance inwardly and the green revolution outwardly.

S&H do point to the consciousness revolution as having the side effect of too much inner focus and narcissism. But that is because American culture is not able to understand and pursue inward transformation as it truly is. Our culture is too commercial, materialist and self-centered to begin with, for it not to coopt a spiritual renaissance. But there were many boomers and other participants who pursued it well. And they became good, supportive parents to millennials. It has brought transformation to a degree; just not enough. That just means it must continue. In a healthy society, spirituality continues through all turnings, whereas in ours, so far, it has only happened in 2Ts, with only non-spiritual traditional religion happening in the other turnings. 

The consciousness revolution is the only path to putting our moral and inner lives on a higher plane. Our nation needs to become a spiritual and not a materialist one. You say politics alone can't transform the corporatocracy. That is true; but then the only alternative is to transform ourselves and our worldview; the way we perceive ourselves and the world. There's a third alternative though; and that's just to be cynical and let things unfold the way they are going now. I don't see that as resulting in anything but the rapid decline and fall of our society. Gen Xers need to look beyond resentment and critique of the consciousness revolution, and instead embrace it and what it offers both outwardly and inwardly.

If millennials are not told to look on the bright side, it's because they naturally do, and Xers don't. The millennials got more support in childhood than Xers did. So yes, Xers need to cultivate just enough hope and idealism to be able to contribute their pragmatic and managerial talents to working through the crisis and emerging into the 1T which they will oversee.

It's hard to believe that we prophets will be over the hill and start disappearing just 10 years from now. Boomers to me will always be the "new generation," and I will always see them as dedicated to transforming the world, even if most of us have had our inspiration and dedication to higher consciousness and social and economic idealism just dry up and fade away. But I think some of us will continue to be young in heart and body, and keep on contributing and helping to lead the way forward in the 1T to come in just 10 years.

S&H did not say prophets are a dark mirror image of heroes.

I make up my own terminology to simplify.  S&H make very clear the distinction between INNER DIRECTED prophets and OUTER DIRECTED Heroes.   One causes the doom and the other fixes it.

[TheNomad]

(06-04-2018, 01:57 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 11:51 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-01-2018, 08:42 PM)TheNomad Wrote: I'm perplexed by the fact that no one seems to acknowledge 911 as any part of the crisis whatsoever. Why is that? I'm starting to think some in this forum simply maybe didn't experience the aftermath of it or simply do not understand the implications of all that happened because of that. Everyone seems to agree that 2008 and the financial ruins is the crisis and yet we're waiting for War the second part of a crisis. Or that the order of the events of the crisis are wrong in that there must be a financial woe and only after that some big war. However we had those two things within six or seven years of each other we had Wars going on the same time as we had the financial crisis.

What's going on with that?  Every time I ask that question no one seems to answer.

I'll say again it is almost as if the wars and complications of the aftermath of the wars were not large enough for significant enough to be considered a crisis element. And for anyone who believes that I want to hear what you have to say. I want to hear people say that the 911 wars and cultural impact in the Homeland were not significant enough to be considered part of the crisis.

The main reason 911 doesn't get the nod as the Crisis Trigger has to do with timing.  The generations were not ready to take on their next roles, so they continued to act in their then current ones.  That the response had 3T stamped all over it just makes the case stronger.  After all, we didn't mobilize or even restart the draft.  We shopped, as instructed by GWB and his minions.  We sent the Praetorian Guard off to war, then decided that we needed a different, less ideological war, so we invaded Iraq.  We took neither war seriously either, which is why we're still engaged 17 years later.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we cut taxes and started a new entitlement program: Medicare Part D.  We ignored Hurricane Katrina until it swamped New Orleans, then did too little to put it back together (a pattern we are following yet again today).  Where in all of this is a 4T?  It's not even a competent 3T.

GWB should have been the last 3T President, mucking things up for others to fix.  Because he was handed a huge international incident (not a threat … al Qaida  was never that) that had to be addressed, he became a quasi Crisis President.  That's all.

Illustration:

Generational type           Crash of '21/anarchist purge

Gilded (Civic*)                 79-99  John D. Rockefeller II, Oliver Wendell Holmes
Progressive (Adaptive)    62-78  John Philip Sousa, Woodrow Wilson
Missionary (Idealist)         39-61  Henry Ford, Franklin Roosevelt
Lost (Reactive)               21-38  Harry Truman, George Gershwin
GI (Civic)                          0-20  Walt Disney, Lou Gehrig

Generational type           Dot-com collapse. 9/11 attack

GI (Civic)                      77-100  Jimmy Carter, Thurgood Marshall
Silent (Adaptive)             59-76  Clint Eastwood, Nancy Pelosi
Boom (Idealist)               41-58  George W. Bush, Donald Trump
X (Reactive)                   19-40  Barack Obama, Mike Pence
GI (Civic)                          0-18  Justin Verlander, Scarlett Johansson

*by then the Gilded Generation was operating much like a Civic generation, at least in the North

In both cases the generational constellation looks like the middle half or slightly later in a 3T/Unraveling/Degeneracy. Heck, there are significant numbers of living Civic (or Civic-like) adults sticking around, and an Adaptive generation is still hanging onto some influence. Much potential for social division is still possible because the Idealist generation has yet to grow out of its age of stilettos-out debates.

The main reason 911 doesn't get the nod as the Crisis Trigger has to do with timing.

Can you see what you even wrote here?  It doesn't get the nod for the crisis because it didn't happen in the time brackets you believe the crisis happened in.

subjective?

[pbrower2a]

I definitely consider 9-11 a non-Crisis event. It was not in a Crisis Era and it did not initiate a Crisis. The nearly-simultaneous inauguration of FDR and the accession of power of Antichrist Hitler are definitive markers for Crisis Eras. The American response to the Pearl Harbor attack (rapid regimentation of the economy, and mass-abandonment of lucrative, hedonistic ways) could hardly be more different from the response from the President to 9-11. "Travel" and "Go shopping!" were not the sorts of responses that one has in a Crisis -- but it is the norm of a 3T.

I consider the political, cultural, and economic misbehavior of a late-3T (I call it the Degeneracy as opposed to the Regeneracy) the sort of deeds that lead to a Crisis Era. Example" speculative booms that devour and waste capital as in the 1920s and the Double-Zero decade.

[Eric the Green]

(06-04-2018, 04:46 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 09:27 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 03:34 AM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 12:44 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-02-2018, 11:27 PM)TheNomad Wrote: I will come back to the rest of this post because there are good arguments.  But for now:

You said: The boomers in the 2T sought to develop this. Your generation views us as having failed in that. However, your generation also rejects the spiritual renaissance that provided the means for people to discover their spirit and morals within.

The spiritual renaissance which sought desperately to not give birth to us so they could explore their selfish dreams and sexual fantasies, and the morals that made killing us in the womb legal.  So, if you guys had it your way, we wouldn't even exist and you would be frolicking in the poppy fields into elderhood with The Doors anthology on a loop.  

Just to be clear, YOU maybe got to explore your inner discovery.  WE got fast lessons on how to use a microwave and no one cared where we were after the sun went down.  Even your intimate knowledge of your own generation and what you feel it was meant to be possibly betrays you didn't even pay attention to what you guys did to your kids in the Nomad position. 

I realize not everyone is the same.  But for the most part, you ARE all pretty much the same to a point.  It's all about YOU.  

Nomad gets the shaft from in the womb forward, Boomer blames Nomad for everything they can, Millennial can't tell the difference and Artist is too busy handjobbing the Millennial to acknowledge the others.  Yet, I'm no complainer.

The consciousness revolution of the 2T was for everyone, and remains open to everyone. It is about a fuller, richer life, and those of us in the movement believe that means finding a better life for everyone. "frolicking" and discovery of the inner life is for everyone. We did need to reduce the children we had (I "neglected" my children to such an extent that I did not have any at all), and some silent and boomer parents neglected their children too. That was the nomad's lot. I hear that, but on the other hand, it also enabled you to be more self-reliant, self-directed and pragmatic survivalists; the mark and talent of your generation. There were advantages to your plight, as well as difficulties. One advantage you had, being part of a less-numerous generation than boomers, was less competition for available jobs. That was very hard for me to deal with.

To resent what your elders did, and thereby reject the spiritual renaissance that we and others started, and that is part of a heritage that goes back millennia, is not an advantage to you though. But it's your choice whether to do that. It is all open to you, and opening to spirit does have its moral dividends too, and we wanted it for everyone. 

You correctly noted that it takes more than politics to being about a better world. I just pointed out that this requires the spiritual renaissance that you guys have rejected. It would be wise for your generation to take another look, now that you are grown and can look past your resentment of elders, just as we boomers had to do when we were grown. The only non-political means to bring the growth in moral awareness that you say we need, is to pursue this spiritual renaissance and inner discovery which, when understood, does not promote selfishness, no matter how selfish many boomers actually were and still are.

I guess these internet discussions are fun. But sadly, it rarely results in any exchange of knowledge or opening to alternative ideas or feelings. Mere words on a screen are not very convincing, and don't resonate very deeply. That is true in our dialogue. I explained why 9-11 is not the crisis, and you just re-posted your question; there you go....

I need to be sick more often to be seeing posts!  But if you responded to 911 no crisis I must have missed it? will look.

But I gotta say: That was the nomad's lot. I hear that, but on the other hand

That is the Nomad's life.  "WE HEAR YOU, BUT...".  Then you want to include everyone into the renaissance.  I have no ill-will for positive thinking nor for realizing what about my childhood was awesome and what sucked.  But it's amazing the glossing over and the "well, just look on the bright side" that doesn't happen to millennial children.

Also, I'm for real.  You can take every word on the screen for what I'm about.  My written word skills are SO exceptional as to convey the
version of my best self and with a communication level far exceeding most. 

When I first looked, I wanted to agree with the renaissance idea being an answer to this evil we see in Corporatacracy and super-wealthy kin scheming to stay up there at our expense.  But according to the Strauss & Howe ideas it is the opposite.  Prophets are a dark-mirror image of Heroes.  It is the very inner renaissance of the prophets which bring so much entropy and doom.  The Heroes are NOT inner-directed souls on a path to bio-enlightenment, they are outer-directed souls on a path to systemic transformation.

So, you may be confused (with all respect, sir).

 

S&H did not say prophets are a dark mirror image of heroes. They say all archetypes are necessary to the process. Prophet idealism provides the direction and blueprint for reform and change during the 4T. That blueprint is there for us. Yes, that's correct about Heroes. They are outer-directed and will be primarily interested in systemic transformation. And that will be about politics. The majority of what is needed to change the corporatacracy now is political. Even so, the next 10 years will not transform it entirely; It will still be there. I hope and expect some reforms which will set our political process back on the right path. During the 1T these reforms will be consolidated and extended. But the next Second Turning, when the Alpha Prophets come of age and Gen Z is in midlife, will bring back the consciousness revolution both outwardly and inwardly, and it will fulfill many of the goals of the sixties revolution and further extend the spiritual renaissance inwardly and the green revolution outwardly.

S&H do point to the consciousness revolution as having the side effect of too much inner focus and narcissism. But that is because American culture is not able to understand and pursue inward transformation as it truly is. Our culture is too commercial, materialist and self-centered to begin with, for it not to coopt a spiritual renaissance. But there were many boomers and other participants who pursued it well. And they became good, supportive parents to millennials. It has brought transformation to a degree; just not enough. That just means it must continue. In a healthy society, spirituality continues through all turnings, whereas in ours, so far, it has only happened in 2Ts, with only non-spiritual traditional religion happening in the other turnings. 

The consciousness revolution is the only path to putting our moral and inner lives on a higher plane. Our nation needs to become a spiritual and not a materialist one. You say politics alone can't transform the corporatocracy. That is true; but then the only alternative is to transform ourselves and our worldview; the way we perceive ourselves and the world. There's a third alternative though; and that's just to be cynical and let things unfold the way they are going now. I don't see that as resulting in anything but the rapid decline and fall of our society. Gen Xers need to look beyond resentment and critique of the consciousness revolution, and instead embrace it and what it offers both outwardly and inwardly.

If millennials are not told to look on the bright side, it's because they naturally do, and Xers don't. The millennials got more support in childhood than Xers did. So yes, Xers need to cultivate just enough hope and idealism to be able to contribute their pragmatic and managerial talents to working through the crisis and emerging into the 1T which they will oversee.

It's hard to believe that we prophets will be over the hill and start disappearing just 10 years from now. Boomers to me will always be the "new generation," and I will always see them as dedicated to transforming the world, even if most of us have had our inspiration and dedication to higher consciousness and social and economic idealism just dry up and fade away. But I think some of us will continue to be young in heart and body, and keep on contributing and helping to lead the way forward in the 1T to come in just 10 years.

S&H did not say prophets are a dark mirror image of heroes.

I make up my own terminology to simplify.  S&H make very clear the distinction between INNER DIRECTED prophets and OUTER DIRECTED Heroes.   One causes the doom and the other fixes it.

Being inner-directed does not cause dooms. It means we inner-directed ones can think for ourselves and make our own decisions. We don't cause the doom; we envision the solution which the heroes later act on.

[TheNomad]

(06-05-2018, 01:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 04:46 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 09:27 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 03:34 AM)TheNomad Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 12:44 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The consciousness revolution of the 2T was for everyone, and remains open to everyone. It is about a fuller, richer life, and those of us in the movement believe that means finding a better life for everyone. "frolicking" and discovery of the inner life is for everyone. We did need to reduce the children we had (I "neglected" my children to such an extent that I did not have any at all), and some silent and boomer parents neglected their children too. That was the nomad's lot. I hear that, but on the other hand, it also enabled you to be more self-reliant, self-directed and pragmatic survivalists; the mark and talent of your generation. There were advantages to your plight, as well as difficulties. One advantage you had, being part of a less-numerous generation than boomers, was less competition for available jobs. That was very hard for me to deal with.

To resent what your elders did, and thereby reject the spiritual renaissance that we and others started, and that is part of a heritage that goes back millennia, is not an advantage to you though. But it's your choice whether to do that. It is all open to you, and opening to spirit does have its moral dividends too, and we wanted it for everyone. 

You correctly noted that it takes more than politics to being about a better world. I just pointed out that this requires the spiritual renaissance that you guys have rejected. It would be wise for your generation to take another look, now that you are grown and can look past your resentment of elders, just as we boomers had to do when we were grown. The only non-political means to bring the growth in moral awareness that you say we need, is to pursue this spiritual renaissance and inner discovery which, when understood, does not promote selfishness, no matter how selfish many boomers actually were and still are.

I guess these internet discussions are fun. But sadly, it rarely results in any exchange of knowledge or opening to alternative ideas or feelings. Mere words on a screen are not very convincing, and don't resonate very deeply. That is true in our dialogue. I explained why 9-11 is not the crisis, and you just re-posted your question; there you go....

I need to be sick more often to be seeing posts!  But if you responded to 911 no crisis I must have missed it? will look.

But I gotta say: That was the nomad's lot. I hear that, but on the other hand

That is the Nomad's life.  "WE HEAR YOU, BUT...".  Then you want to include everyone into the renaissance.  I have no ill-will for positive thinking nor for realizing what about my childhood was awesome and what sucked.  But it's amazing the glossing over and the "well, just look on the bright side" that doesn't happen to millennial children.

Also, I'm for real.  You can take every word on the screen for what I'm about.  My written word skills are SO exceptional as to convey the
version of my best self and with a communication level far exceeding most. 

When I first looked, I wanted to agree with the renaissance idea being an answer to this evil we see in Corporatacracy and super-wealthy kin scheming to stay up there at our expense.  But according to the Strauss & Howe ideas it is the opposite.  Prophets are a dark-mirror image of Heroes.  It is the very inner renaissance of the prophets which bring so much entropy and doom.  The Heroes are NOT inner-directed souls on a path to bio-enlightenment, they are outer-directed souls on a path to systemic transformation.

So, you may be confused (with all respect, sir).

 

S&H did not say prophets are a dark mirror image of heroes. They say all archetypes are necessary to the process. Prophet idealism provides the direction and blueprint for reform and change during the 4T. That blueprint is there for us. Yes, that's correct about Heroes. They are outer-directed and will be primarily interested in systemic transformation. And that will be about politics. The majority of what is needed to change the corporatacracy now is political. Even so, the next 10 years will not transform it entirely; It will still be there. I hope and expect some reforms which will set our political process back on the right path. During the 1T these reforms will be consolidated and extended. But the next Second Turning, when the Alpha Prophets come of age and Gen Z is in midlife, will bring back the consciousness revolution both outwardly and inwardly, and it will fulfill many of the goals of the sixties revolution and further extend the spiritual renaissance inwardly and the green revolution outwardly.

S&H do point to the consciousness revolution as having the side effect of too much inner focus and narcissism. But that is because American culture is not able to understand and pursue inward transformation as it truly is. Our culture is too commercial, materialist and self-centered to begin with, for it not to coopt a spiritual renaissance. But there were many boomers and other participants who pursued it well. And they became good, supportive parents to millennials. It has brought transformation to a degree; just not enough. That just means it must continue. In a healthy society, spirituality continues through all turnings, whereas in ours, so far, it has only happened in 2Ts, with only non-spiritual traditional religion happening in the other turnings. 

The consciousness revolution is the only path to putting our moral and inner lives on a higher plane. Our nation needs to become a spiritual and not a materialist one. You say politics alone can't transform the corporatocracy. That is true; but then the only alternative is to transform ourselves and our worldview; the way we perceive ourselves and the world. There's a third alternative though; and that's just to be cynical and let things unfold the way they are going now. I don't see that as resulting in anything but the rapid decline and fall of our society. Gen Xers need to look beyond resentment and critique of the consciousness revolution, and instead embrace it and what it offers both outwardly and inwardly.

If millennials are not told to look on the bright side, it's because they naturally do, and Xers don't. The millennials got more support in childhood than Xers did. So yes, Xers need to cultivate just enough hope and idealism to be able to contribute their pragmatic and managerial talents to working through the crisis and emerging into the 1T which they will oversee.

It's hard to believe that we prophets will be over the hill and start disappearing just 10 years from now. Boomers to me will always be the "new generation," and I will always see them as dedicated to transforming the world, even if most of us have had our inspiration and dedication to higher consciousness and social and economic idealism just dry up and fade away. But I think some of us will continue to be young in heart and body, and keep on contributing and helping to lead the way forward in the 1T to come in just 10 years.

S&H did not say prophets are a dark mirror image of heroes.

I make up my own terminology to simplify.  S&H make very clear the distinction between INNER DIRECTED prophets and OUTER DIRECTED Heroes.   One causes the doom and the other fixes it.

Being inner-directed does not cause dooms. It means we inner-directed ones can think for ourselves and make our own decisions. We don't cause the doom; we envision the solution which the heroes later act on.

I completely disagree and so do the authors of the text we are drawing from.  All the work done by GIs to make stable institutions and an OUTER world boomers could have the American Dream in abundance, the boomers shunned them completely and trashed the institutions made so lovingly for them.  The Heroes are obsessed with fixing broken institutions and creating stability and justice...... then their children say "you suck cause dad you are boring and mom you are oppressed, no one is having sex, the movies you make are lame and predictable" blah blah.................. then they squat in the mud because Jimi Hendrix combined with their acid trip is the INNER DIRECTED experience of "I Am The Vessel For Enlightenment".  Then, they leave the concert with heaps of trash no one cleans up, a bombed community overrun with stank aliens, and eventually they all go back home and spread the herpes to their respective Ground Zeros.

We know where it goes from there.  That's just a REALLY good encapsulated story.

This inner direction must happen because I believe cycles happen.  Nobody likes death but the nutrients renew the surroundings and more growth happens.  That doesn't mean it isn't destructive.  The extreme inner-directed lives of the prophet archetype causes hell on our collective environment through their entire cycle.  It just sucks their trip has to bring down the institutions that were THERE for them most of their lives but not for others.  They got the best of everything and they still manage to complain the most.

I don't think prophets "envision the solution" at all.  They all envision their own solutions (or not, they may just be too busy arguing without purpose at all) but they want it their way, through their model, in their respective ideology OR NOT AT ALL.  Then, nothing happens.  I don't see the concept of prophets in power who then hand over all the grand fixes to Heroes who then process it with rubber stamp?

is u cray?

If anything, I see a group of well-intentioned younger people walking into sort of a walmart when they are selling flatscreens at 4am for $99 and everyone has a weapon.............. so these younger people are like "how do we stop them?"  So, there's no legislation or vision or prepared documents or committee sitting there........ they have to first get these angry lone nuts under control and remind them about the thing called ORDER and how there's shit to get done so hurry up and get your TV without killing anyone, then get back here so we can get to work.

I swear to god that is how I see it.     I have been accused of supreme hyperbole, but it often works.  So, I can't see what you mean with that statement.  But full circle, Inner and Outer directed mindset both have their benefit.  We only need look at my post and the things I say (and of course everyone) I come from a place where I WANT the strong institution, I WANT the competent government services and processes, I WANT the police to work properly, I WANT order on the streets, etc.  Why?  Because I came from a place where none of that existed.  From such a broken time when it was "ASSUMED no one is in charge".  <-- that's a direct quote from 4T about Nomads.  

I had a time in my life when I did all the things I hate people do today with no respect for others and doing havoc simply because I could, risky behavior, DRUGS, and now I am older and want ME to stfu while I am trying to read a book on the deck.  So I get it.  I know about the inner discovery.  But it is destructive.  If anyone of us had to choose whether to have sex drugs and rock but there are no banks (hide cash in private safe if you can afford one) which do you want?  I also strongly believe in balance.  Perhaps the last prophets took it WAY too far.  Inner direction is ultimately selfishness.  Ultimately.  Look at Artists and compare them with the Prophet.  There are a lot of similarities but the Artist sort of has that balance since it knows from early on what a Crisis is like, so it does not want any parts of that.......... yet they grow up in a world that Heroes have FIXED which leaves them free to create and build on that platform............... then the prophets come again and want to tear it all down again.



Sure I keep generalizing because in such a platform one must to an extent. But the way in which the prophet comes to be is almost a timebomb.... or a perfect storm. Like, to grow up with every advantage then become SO bored to just trash institutions in their wake while looking for that thing U2 says you won't find anyway. I could write a whole text about this based on my experience as someone who lived under them in every capacity and experienced their "wake" in a personal quest and being a human sacrifice of that quest. If that's happening on a personal level in a home environment, extrapolate what that will do to the society at-large: in business, in politics, in interpersonal relationships, "networking" & Humans-As-Commodity, amoral marketing, on and on ∞

[David Horn]

(06-04-2018, 04:47 PM)TheNomad Wrote: The main reason 911 doesn't get the nod as the Crisis Trigger has to do with timing.

Can you see what you even wrote here?  It doesn't get the nod for the crisis because it didn't happen in the time brackets you believe the crisis happened in.

subjective?

Subjective?  Of course!  All of this is subjective.  All I can do is look at the history as it unfolded and decide if the next turning has arrived or not.  As far as I can tell, nothing about the post-911 period has any crisis-feel to it.  It seemed a lot more like a MIC opportunity: profits for some, war for a few and pass the popcorn for the rest.

FWIW, we discussed this for years after 911, and no one make a strong case for 2001 as the beginning of the crisis period, and there were many who tried.  2001 was early, but not prohibitively so.  911 could have been the trigger, but it shows no signs that is was.  This is especially true when you consider the resolution of that event: none of note.  Afghanistan is still in turmoil, Iraq is stabilizing, but not in a way we would consider transformative, and the war has just spread to Syria and Yemen.  We now have troops in 197 countries and action is most of them, yet the focus of our attention is DJT and his Tweets.

[TheNomad]

(06-05-2018, 11:00 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-04-2018, 04:47 PM)TheNomad Wrote: The main reason 911 doesn't get the nod as the Crisis Trigger has to do with timing.

Can you see what you even wrote here?  It doesn't get the nod for the crisis because it didn't happen in the time brackets you believe the crisis happened in.

subjective?

Subjective?  Of course!  All of this is subjective.  All I can do is look at the history as it unfolded and decide if the next turning has arrived or not.  As far as I can tell, nothing about the post-911 period has any crisis-feel to it.  It seemed a lot more like a MIC opportunity: profits for some, war for a few and pass the popcorn for the rest.

FWIW, we discussed this for years after 911, and no one make a strong case for 2001 as the beginning of the crisis period, and there were many who tried.  2001 was early, but not prohibitively so.  911 could have been the trigger, but it shows no signs that is was.  This is especially true when you consider the resolution of that event: none of note.  Afghanistan is still in turmoil, Iraq is stabilizing, but not in a way we would consider transformative, and the war has just spread to Syria and Yemen.  We now have troops in 197 countries and action is most of them, yet the focus of our attention is DJT and his Tweets.

All of this is subjective

That is the whole generational disconnect.  Objectivity views things through a lens that sets aside the observer's "doctrine" so that he/she can make informed decisions NOT on what they already believe or want to believe but in rectifying things they don't believe with things they do believe.  There is very little of that happening in our culture and it is what causes alternate realities and alt facts.  To even say "alternate facts" and have that be a phrase we hear at the highest levels of those in power is insanity.  I am beginning to understand OBJECTIVITY is a concept diametrically opposed to many, possibly unable to comprehend what is even the difference between the two, therefore, unable to BE objective because it means a willingness to stop preaching and start learning.

That somehow ALTERNATE FACTS even exist.  Facts are facts, they can and are spun in any way possible to achieve the end of the person spewing those "facts".  Therefore, subjectivity is wrong and only causes problems leading to Crisis and all the flaming doom we keep seeing in every 4th Turning.  That you can't or don't see that is ITSELF proof what I am saying is true.

Subjectivity is simply another phrase for Culture Wars.  And we have to endure a whole generation of subjective people who cling to their subjectivity before all else - even over solving problems.  I think solving problems needs to be front and center and dogma needs to stay outside until you have a change to walk it.

[David Horn]

(06-05-2018, 07:02 PM)TheNomad Wrote: All of this is subjective

That is the whole generational disconnect.  Objectivity views things through a lens that sets aside the observer's "doctrine" so that he/she can make informed decisions NOT on what they already believe or want to believe but in rectifying things they don't believe with things they do believe.  There is very little of that happening in our culture and it is what causes alternate realities and alt facts.  To even say "alternate facts" and have that be a phrase we hear at the highest levels of those in power is insanity.  I am beginning to understand OBJECTIVITY is a concept diametrically opposed to many, possibly unable to comprehend what is even the difference between the two, therefore, unable to BE objective because it means a willingness to stop preaching and start learning.

That somehow ALTERNATE FACTS even exist.  Facts are facts, they can and are spun in any way possible to achieve the end of the person spewing those "facts".  Therefore, subjectivity is wrong and only causes problems leading to Crisis and all the flaming doom we keep seeing in every 4th Turning.  That you can't or don't see that is ITSELF proof what I am saying is true.

Subjectivity is simply another phrase for Culture Wars.  And we have to endure a whole generation of subjective people who cling to their subjectivity before all else - even over solving problems.  I think solving problems needs to be front and center and dogma needs to stay outside until you have a change to walk it.

My background is engineering, so what qualifies as objective fact in my mind is, perhaps, a more stringent definition than most people would employ.  That said, there is little room for pure objectivity in highly complex situations.  Why do you think there is even room for argument on the climate issue?  If anything has too many moving parts that interact to describe how they do so in a sentence or two, subjectivity is a given.  If anything, history is vastly more complex, and less tied to fixed rules, than any physical process.

As far as "alternative facts", George Orwell understood this very well.  Alternative facts are not intended to entice people to believe that 2+2=5.  They're intended to make belief in anything a dubious proposition.  If nothing is absolutely true then anything can be as true as anything else.  Not everyone is savvy enough to see through this, so it is successful far more often than it should be.  For others, it simply doesn't matter.  For example, if I hate the idea that burning fossil fuels is harmful, and someone puts forth "alternative facts" that say it's actually beneficial, I can adopt that position unless it's so roundly castigated that accepting it is embarrassing (or worse).  What makes Trump unique here: he's able to say totally outrageous things and continue saying them with no sense of embarrassment.  Eventually, they become part of the lexicon and acceptable … to some at least.

This is just the final phase of the indoctrination methods brought to us by Rush Limbaugh and Fox News, among so many others.  If they lead to a disaster, they will stop.  If not, then this may continue indefinitely.

[TheNomad]

(06-06-2018, 10:33 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-05-2018, 07:02 PM)TheNomad Wrote: All of this is subjective

That is the whole generational disconnect.  Objectivity views things through a lens that sets aside the observer's "doctrine" so that he/she can make informed decisions NOT on what they already believe or want to believe but in rectifying things they don't believe with things they do believe.  There is very little of that happening in our culture and it is what causes alternate realities and alt facts.  To even say "alternate facts" and have that be a phrase we hear at the highest levels of those in power is insanity.  I am beginning to understand OBJECTIVITY is a concept diametrically opposed to many, possibly unable to comprehend what is even the difference between the two, therefore, unable to BE objective because it means a willingness to stop preaching and start learning.

That somehow ALTERNATE FACTS even exist.  Facts are facts, they can and are spun in any way possible to achieve the end of the person spewing those "facts".  Therefore, subjectivity is wrong and only causes problems leading to Crisis and all the flaming doom we keep seeing in every 4th Turning.  That you can't or don't see that is ITSELF proof what I am saying is true.

Subjectivity is simply another phrase for Culture Wars.  And we have to endure a whole generation of subjective people who cling to their subjectivity before all else - even over solving problems.  I think solving problems needs to be front and center and dogma needs to stay outside until you have a change to walk it.

My background is engineering, so what qualifies as objective fact in my mind is, perhaps, a more stringent definition than most people would employ.  That said, there is little room for pure objectivity in highly complex situations.  Why do you think there is even room for argument on the climate issue?  If anything has too many moving parts that interact to describe how they do so in a sentence or two, subjectivity is a given.  If anything, history is vastly more complex, and less tied to fixed rules, than any physical process.

As far as "alternative facts", George Orwell understood this very well.  Alternative facts are not intended to entice people to believe that 2+2=5.  They're intended to make belief in anything a dubious proposition.  If nothing is absolutely true then anything can be as true as anything else.  Not everyone is savvy enough to see through this, so it is successful far more often than it should be.  For others, it simply doesn't matter.  For example, if I hate the idea that burning fossil fuels is harmful, and someone puts forth "alternative facts" that say it's actually beneficial, I can adopt that position unless it's so roundly castigated that accepting it is embarrassing (or worse).  What makes Trump unique here: he's able to say totally outrageous things and continue saying them with no sense of embarrassment.  Eventually, they become part of the lexicon and acceptable … to some at least.

This is just the final phase of the indoctrination methods brought to us by Rush Limbaugh and Fox News, among so many others.  If they lead to a disaster, they will stop.  If not, then this may continue indefinitely.

Yes, all of that.

Do you think (well, obviously this concept has been around a long time) it is only now being defined in what it is?

There never used to be a word for taking heads that only erupt information of a false nature with doctrine, dogma and continually repeated phrases and sentences like some sort of verbal battering ram.  At least, I don;t remember there being a word for that or an actual description or strong acknowledgment of THAT.

Is it progress the general populace is identifying something like this?  That news orgs like CNN outright call it "lies" openly and without fear? If so, that's a really good step forward.  You said not everyone is savvy enough to see through this.   have to believe that even strong identification of this behavior by those with Power is  a wonderful educational tool.

Someone might watch CNN clips and they hear this: "alternate facts" and "alternative narrative".  They start thinking.  This is a fracture of fundamental reality and I don't think people will allow that much longer.  There is ridiculous blue winning in places they've maybe never have.  It seems like a backlash on red for being so dumb with all that. But I am glad this stuff is becoming even cataloged for posterity, we might see what parts of this frakked part of history could be changed for the better.

[pbrower2a]

(06-05-2018, 07:02 PM)TheNomad Wrote: That is the whole generational disconnect.  Objectivity views things through a lens that sets aside the observer's "doctrine" so that he/she can make informed decisions NOT on what they already believe or want to believe but in rectifying things they don't believe with things they do believe.  There is very little of that happening in our culture and it is what causes alternate realities and alt facts.  To even say "alternate facts" and have that be a phrase we hear at the highest levels of those in power is insanity.  I am beginning to understand OBJECTIVITY is a concept diametrically opposed to many, possibly unable to comprehend what is even the difference between the two, therefore, unable to BE objective because it means a willingness to stop preaching and start learning.

On some issues it is more alternative ethics than alternate reality. It is impossible to prove ethics; one can only go through some higher principle or another or reject what one sees as inapplicable. The difference between Donald Trump and a typical Marxist is not that Trump and Marx believe that capitalism is a cruel order that puts the enrichment, pampering, and power of elites who owe nothing to anybody else above all else. Both fully believe this. Trump thinks it wonderful and Marx believes it appalling. Obviously many others see capitalism as a means to achieving the dreams of many or at least something workably imperfect. "Workably imperfect" is far better than horrible, and "perfect" may be beyond human achievement because Man is terribly flawed. Thus do we seek capitalism with a human face?

"Alternative facts" is of course an oxymoron. The idea that 2+5=8 us just simply wrong, as is the claim that Abraham Lincoln was born in 1825. We cannot choose truth; we can only choose to use it for our purposes. It is there to be had. Acting upon falsehood with reckless disregard for its falsehood is foolishness. Maybe we can learn from fiction, which explains how something like Plato's account of Atlantis is useful.

Quote:That somehow ALTERNATE FACTS even exist.  Facts are facts, they can and are spun in any way possible to achieve the end of the person spewing those "facts".  Therefore, subjectivity is wrong and only causes problems leading to Crisis and all the flaming doom we keep seeing in every 4th Turning.  That you can't or don't see that is ITSELF proof what I am saying is true.

Call them fiction. But we have plenty of use for Cervantes, Shakespeare, Milton, Goethe, Voltaire, Hugo, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, etc. We can learn from them. We can learn nothing from the claim that Donald Trump actually won the popular vote in the 2016 Presidential election or that Obama was born in Kenya. The Earth is not flat, you cannot add a finite number of fractions to get the square root of three, and Antarctica is not a tropical paradise.

Quote:Subjectivity is simply another phrase for Culture Wars.  And we have to endure a whole generation of subjective people who cling to their subjectivity before all else - even over solving problems.  I think solving problems needs to be front and center and dogma needs to stay outside until you have a change to walk it.

Ethics and esthetics are subjective even if we can discuss those in rational terms. I cannot prove that murder is wrong, but I can't imagine that a place in which human life is grossly insecure because people have the freedom to murder others is a good place to live. Basing one's life on falsehoods is not good for a happy life.