COVID-19 is the perfect 4T event?

[pbrower2a]

We have been slow to get out of a Degeneracy that has powerful backers who can profiteer from it. But sticking with this Degeneracy ensures ever-increasing disasters. The Plague of 2020 is something that few of us would have predicted. I expect perhaps North Korea to invade South Korea only to find out that China and Russia found South Korea better markets for weaponry.

The economic elites of the Double-Zero Decade could thwart major reforms with the aid of a Tea Party that it sponsored. The Tea Party is loud and abrasive as ever, especially in "Liberate (Michigan/Minnesota/Wisconsin)" rallies. Except that people are getting sick after attending those. No Schadenfreude on my part; these fanatics are infecting innocent people.

The Plague of 2020 has compelled people to change their ways, even shutting down usually-profitable activities. Mindless consumerism is a basis for a vibrant economy, but if it can kill us, then we need something else.

[beechnut79]

In what ways might you feel as though the whole saga of COVID-19 have a perfect storm quality to it? Do you feel that it is now the essential workers/first responders turn to shine? Might there still be those who may want to play and shut out and ignore anything ugly that is ruining any and all picture perfect days? Might we call this the Nero fiddle syndrome? Sometimes life is messy and not exactly what we’d envisioned.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FYym0J-2KEQ

[pbrower2a]

(05-20-2020, 09:52 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: In what ways might you feel as though the whole saga of COVID-19 have a perfect storm quality to it?  Do you feel that it is now the essential workers/first responders turn to shine?  Might there still be those who may want to play and shut out and ignore anything ugly that is ruining any and all picture perfect days?  Might we call this the Nero fiddle syndrome?  Sometimes life is messy and not exactly what we’d envisioned.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FYym0J-2KEQ

Every noble cause needs its heroes. We know who those are.  Some people do dumb stuff.  Nathan Hale is a hero. The fellow who does something stupid with a hand grenade and dies of that stupidity is a schmuck. The person who breaks into a dog-infested house and gets mauled is a schmuck. (A man's home is his castle and his dog's jungle).

People have attended church services that led to mass infections. People have participated in "Liberate (State)" rallies and contracted the Plague of 2020. Anyone who expects mystical protection from COVID-19 is a fool. I wear a mask to a take-out booth as well as to a food store, gas station, or pharmacy. I hope that I do not need to attend any funerals. 

I try to be nice. I thank people for wearing masks. Positive reinforcement is exactly what some people want to hear; they don't get enough of it.   When libraries and bookstores open up I will wear a mask.

[pbrower2a]

(04-28-2020, 12:40 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-28-2020, 12:24 PM)Isoko Wrote: David,

Once again, how can you pay for all this? The problem with the U.S is that she is in 1980s Soviet waters. There was no way or will to radically turn that system around. When you are in that stage, the system fails and has to be rebuilt from the ground up, not the ground down.

We're already entering a deflationary period, which is the worst form of economic crisis.  Printing and spending money is the easiest way out.  Since much is needed, much money should be printed.  I only hope it's used wisely.

In the aftermath of WW-II, the US debt was 128% of GNP.  By 1962, it was 32%, and not one cent of the debt was retired.  The difference: growth and inflation made the debt seem small in a then highly robust economy. There's no reason not to do that again.

Strictly speaking, an economy is at its strongest when people are on the reckless side when spending money. I need to replace a muffler on my car, and I need (for my mental health) to rescue a dog. Maybe I might buy a complete set of Haydn string quartets on the side, although dogs generally dislike music on stringed instruments. That almost makes me a 'cat person', except that travel with a cat isn't easy. 

In any event

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-20-2020, 09:52 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: In what ways might you feel as though the whole saga of COVID-19 have a perfect storm quality to it?  Do you feel that it is now the essential workers/first responders turn to shine?  Might there still be those who may want to play and shut out and ignore anything ugly that is ruining any and all picture perfect days?  Might we call this the Nero fiddle syndrome?  Sometimes life is messy and not exactly what we’d envisioned.

There is a honor to the essential workers and first responders element.  Let’s give honor to that.

The Nero Fiddle Syndrome has always been a part of the red unraveling mindset.  Any problem that is too expensive to run on a small government with low taxes just gets called a hoax or fake news.  They just want to play in their picture perfect world and dream on.  They would prefer to ignore the science, and ignore any responsibility for the future.  They make it about their rights not about benefiting the community.

COVID-19 is unlike most other problems in that it comes home to roost fast.  If you ignore the problem, it hits your community hard and fast.  It makes it hard to just ignore the problem and hope it will go away.  Some will try.  There seems to be a conservative right to live in their dream world.  One should never be forced to commit to the community, to be concerned more with the country than one’s self.

In that it is a sort of perfect storm.

The other thing is the timing.  It seems to be leaving enough time that by the election it will be absolutely clear that something has to be done and that the selfish people trying to live in the past blew it.

I think that is enough?

[Bob Butler 54]

Back in the unravelling, I was looking for a new normal, a culture that would be more ecologically responsible. I assumed that population and productivity would constantly increase. Resources would become scarce. The old normal sought ever more profits by the elites, which was a false priority. Thus they encouraged luxuries which we would not be able to afford in the long term. This meant things like the retirement age of 65 and the 40 hour work week were kept. I was looking to see a balance were the 65 and 40 numbers could be trimmed well down, resources spent on luxuries quashed, and we could, for example, cook our own hamburgers while wearing less jewelry and driving a less fancy vehicle.

What I did not do was design a trigger which would cause much of this to come about. In dealing with the crisis, we would go at least temporarily half way to this more ecological economy. Thus, when COVUS came around, I recognized the new normal it would force as half way there and possibly sticking.

It is almost enough for a devout agnostic to wonder if Mother Nature possibly knew what she was doing when designing the bug.

Anyway, another factor in considering the thing perfect.

[David Horn]

(05-22-2020, 09:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-20-2020, 09:52 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: In what ways might you feel as though the whole saga of COVID-19 have a perfect storm quality to it?  Do you feel that it is now the essential workers/first responders turn to shine?  Might there still be those who may want to play and shut out and ignore anything ugly that is ruining any and all picture perfect days?  Might we call this the Nero fiddle syndrome?  Sometimes life is messy and not exactly what we’d envisioned.

There is a honor to the essential workers and first responders element.  Let’s give honor to that.

The Nero Fiddle Syndrome has always been a part of the red unraveling mindset.  Any problem that is too expensive to run on a small government with low taxes just gets called a hoax or fake news.  They just want to play in their picture perfect world and dream on.  They would prefer to ignore the science, and ignore any responsibility for the future.  They make it about their rights not about benefiting the community.

COVID-19 is unlike most other problems in that it comes home to roost fast.  If you ignore the problem, it hits your community hard and fast.  It makes it hard to just ignore the problem and hope it will go away.  Some will try.  There seems to be a conservative right to live in their dream world.  One should never be forced to commit to the community, to be concerned more with the country than one’s self.

In that it is a sort of perfect storm.

The other thing is the timing.  It seems to be leaving enough time that by the election it will be absolutely clear that something has to be done and that the selfish people trying to live in the past blew it.

I think that is enough?

That's the hinge on this gate: 'we' or 'me'!  The 'me' crowd is getting more invested in magical thinking by the day, so let's agree that they aren't the source of a solution to this problem or any problem that needs a coordinated response.  They are also a relatively large contingent, so they can't be ignored.  Since they will fight any coordinated effort as an infringement on their right to do as they damn well please, it's hard to see anything more effective than muddle.  4Ts aren't about muddle.  Scary!

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-25-2020, 10:14 AM)David Horn Wrote: That's the hinge on this gate: 'we' or 'me'!  The 'me' crowd is getting more invested in magical thinking by the day, so let's agree that they aren't the source of a solution to this problem or any problem that needs a coordinated response.  They are also a relatively large contingent, so they can't be ignored.  Since they will fight any coordinated effort as an infringement on their right to do as they damn well please, it's hard to see anything more effective than muddle.  4Ts aren't about muddle.  Scary!

How scary?

I keep saying that you need something like Atlanta in the Civil War or Hiroshima in World War II to convince a conservative group to change their worldview, to stage what Xenakis’s and I have recently called a cultural reboot.

Now Hiroshima was about 100,000 deaths. We are almost there with no appreciable effect. However, Hiroshima came with Nagasaki, a strategic conventional bombing campaign that occasionally reached a similar scale, not to mention the island hopping campaign or the submarine war. The total in round numbers is around 3,000,000 deaths.

I heard one story of a bunch of POWs, far from Tokyo when the war ended, who commandeered a train to rejoin the allies. Now, these people had not been treated well. POWs of the old Japanese weren’t. So it is hardly surprising when they reached the first pile of ashes that had once been a city, they cheered. They had a similar reaction to the second pile of ashes.

But when they reached the third, they were silent.

Three Million Deaths. Curves going up at the time the isolation was released. Exponential growth without a scientific response. How long before a cultural reboot?

As you say. Scary.

[David Horn]

(05-25-2020, 03:00 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-25-2020, 10:14 AM)David Horn Wrote: That's the hinge on this gate: 'we' or 'me'!  The 'me' crowd is getting more invested in magical thinking by the day, so let's agree that they aren't the source of a solution to this problem or any problem that needs a coordinated response.  They are also a relatively large contingent, so they can't be ignored.  Since they will fight any coordinated effort as an infringement on their right to do as they damn well please, it's hard to see anything more effective than muddle.  4Ts aren't about muddle.  Scary!

How scary?

I keep saying that you need something like Atlanta in the Civil War or Hiroshima in World War II to convince a conservative group to change their worldview, to stage what Xenakis’s and I have recently called a cultural reboot.

Now Hiroshima was about 100,000 deaths.  We are almost there with no appreciable effect. However, Hiroshima came with Nagasaki, a strategic conventional bombing campaign that occasionally reached a similar scale, not to mention the island hopping campaign or the submarine war.  The total in round numbers is around 3,000,000 deaths.

I heard one story of a bunch of POWs, far from Tokyo when the war ended, who commandeered a train to rejoin the allies.  Now, these people had not been treated well.  POWs of the old Japanese weren’t.  So it is hardly surprising when they reached the first pile of ashes that had once been a city, they cheered.  They had a similar reaction to the second pile of ashes.

But when they reached the third, they were silent.

Three Million Deaths.  Curves going up at the time the isolation was released.  Exponential growth without a scientific response.  How long before a cultural reboot?

As you say.  Scary.

If ~40% of the people simply don't believe the facts on the ground, how do you get to the next level?  Trump is a master of confusion.  If he convinces his 40% that the COVID-19 pandemic is a sham (and they actually want to believe that already), then couple that with the election was stolen and Democrats are responsible, how do you think that will play?  Will the military follow orders or devolve into a Trump cabal? If the latter, then how is anything resolved? The Blue side is not going to go for a coup. If the former, will there then be so much chaos that martial law really IS required?  How many boots on the ground can America tolerate?

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-25-2020, 05:37 PM)David Horn Wrote: If ~40% of the people simply don't believe the facts on the ground, how do you get to the next level?  Trump is a master of confusion.  If he convinces his 40% that the COVID-19 pandemic is a sham (and they actually want to believe that already), then couple that with the election was stolen and Democrats are responsible, how do you think that will play?  Will the military follow orders or devolve into a Trump cabal? If the latter, then how is anything resolved? The Blue side is not going to go for a coup. If the former, will there then be so much chaos that martial law really IS required?  How many boots on the ground can America tolerate?

If the science is vaguely right, there will be a lot of deaths in the happy talk states that simply will not be ignorable.  This may even wake up a conservative.  If so, it will happen long before the election, let alone the inauguration.  Thus, I am not dwelling too much on the scenarios that you are wondering about.

I did come up with another one.  If Trump is in trouble, he may try to wag the dog and start something with China.  Starting World War III to satisfy a personal lust for power is just like Trump.

[Eric the Green]

(05-25-2020, 06:39 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-25-2020, 05:37 PM)David Horn Wrote: If ~40% of the people simply don't believe the facts on the ground, how do you get to the next level?  Trump is a master of confusion.  If he convinces his 40% that the COVID-19 pandemic is a sham (and they actually want to believe that already), then couple that with the election was stolen and Democrats are responsible, how do you think that will play?  Will the military follow orders or devolve into a Trump cabal? If the latter, then how is anything resolved? The Blue side is not going to go for a coup. If the former, will there then be so much chaos that martial law really IS required?  How many boots on the ground can America tolerate?

If the science is vaguely right, there will be a lot of deaths in the happy talk states that simply will not be ignorable.  This may even wake up a conservative.  If so, it will happen long before the election, let alone the inauguration.  Thus, I am not dwelling too much on the scenarios that you are wondering about.

I did come up with another one.  If Trump is in trouble, he may try to wag the dog and start something with China.  Starting World War III to satisfy a personal lust for power is just like Trump.

I doubt it would be world war III, with all its connotations. But I wonder about Hong Kong. Those people are being treated unfairly and agreements are being broken. It may also be true that the demonstrators are getting too extreme in their demands and methods. But a takeover or a repression could persuade the USA and UK and their allies that Hong Kong needs to be shored up with troops to protect the semi-autonomy agreement. That could be a good wag the dog scenario.

One possibly good sign is that support for the "lockdowns" and guidelines is more than Trump's 52% dis-approval rating. It's more like 65% already, or more. So people are concerned about the pandemic and Trump playing games with it may not fly if there's still too much covid one way or another.

Astrologers such as myself have long seen the possibility of war at the end of this year/early next year. But I don't see the USA playing a big role in it yet.

[LPDec63]

(05-25-2020, 10:14 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-22-2020, 09:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-20-2020, 09:52 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: In what ways might you feel as though the whole saga of COVID-19 have a perfect storm quality to it?  Do you feel that it is now the essential workers/first responders turn to shine?  Might there still be those who may want to play and shut out and ignore anything ugly that is ruining any and all picture perfect days?  Might we call this the Nero fiddle syndrome?  Sometimes life is messy and not exactly what we’d envisioned.

There is a honor to the essential workers and first responders element.  Let’s give honor to that.

The Nero Fiddle Syndrome has always been a part of the red unraveling mindset.  Any problem that is too expensive to run on a small government with low taxes just gets called a hoax or fake news.  They just want to play in their picture perfect world and dream on.  They would prefer to ignore the science, and ignore any responsibility for the future.  They make it about their rights not about benefiting the community.

COVID-19 is unlike most other problems in that it comes home to roost fast.  If you ignore the problem, it hits your community hard and fast.  It makes it hard to just ignore the problem and hope it will go away.  Some will try.  There seems to be a conservative right to live in their dream world.  One should never be forced to commit to the community, to be concerned more with the country than one’s self.

In that it is a sort of perfect storm.

The other thing is the timing.  It seems to be leaving enough time that by the election it will be absolutely clear that something has to be done and that the selfish people trying to live in the past blew it.

I think that is enough?

That's the hinge on this gate: 'we' or 'me'!  The 'me' crowd is getting more invested in magical thinking by the day, so let's agree that they aren't the source of a solution to this problem or any problem that needs a coordinated response.  They are also a relatively large contingent, so they can't be ignored.  Since they will fight any coordinated effort as an infringement on their right to do as they damn well please, it's hard to see anything more effective than muddle.  4Ts aren't about muddle.  Scary!

A lot of those "Me" folks were born in the 70's, which were once known as the "Me Decade".  


What we need is a "We Decade".

[David Horn]

(05-26-2020, 01:46 PM)LPDec63 Wrote:

(05-25-2020, 10:14 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-22-2020, 09:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-20-2020, 09:52 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: In what ways might you feel as though the whole saga of COVID-19 have a perfect storm quality to it?  Do you feel that it is now the essential workers/first responders turn to shine?  Might there still be those who may want to play and shut out and ignore anything ugly that is ruining any and all picture perfect days?  Might we call this the Nero fiddle syndrome?  Sometimes life is messy and not exactly what we’d envisioned.

There is a honor to the essential workers and first responders element.  Let’s give honor to that.

The Nero Fiddle Syndrome has always been a part of the red unraveling mindset.  Any problem that is too expensive to run on a small government with low taxes just gets called a hoax or fake news.  They just want to play in their picture perfect world and dream on.  They would prefer to ignore the science, and ignore any responsibility for the future.  They make it about their rights not about benefiting the community.

COVID-19 is unlike most other problems in that it comes home to roost fast.  If you ignore the problem, it hits your community hard and fast.  It makes it hard to just ignore the problem and hope it will go away.  Some will try.  There seems to be a conservative right to live in their dream world.  One should never be forced to commit to the community, to be concerned more with the country than one’s self.

In that it is a sort of perfect storm.

The other thing is the timing.  It seems to be leaving enough time that by the election it will be absolutely clear that something has to be done and that the selfish people trying to live in the past blew it.

I think that is enough?

That's the hinge on this gate: 'we' or 'me'!  The 'me' crowd is getting more invested in magical thinking by the day, so let's agree that they aren't the source of a solution to this problem or any problem that needs a coordinated response.  They are also a relatively large contingent, so they can't be ignored.  Since they will fight any coordinated effort as an infringement on their right to do as they damn well please, it's hard to see anything more effective than muddle.  4Ts aren't about muddle.  Scary!

A lot of those "Me" folks were born in the 70's, which were once known as the "Me Decade".  

What we need is a "We Decade".

In theory, the Millennials were expected to fill that role, but too many live in the virtual world to be reliable advocates (to say nothing of actors) in the real world.  Of course, that can change quickly, and may be changing outside my range of vision for all I know. What I don't see is a real leader of any generation who can move us forward.  Bernie Sanders gave it a good shot, but came up short twice.  No one else is viable.

[pbrower2a]

Evidence that the Crisis is over is that the virulent hatreds of the Crisis Era weaken. The victors start seeing the defeated as no longer The Enemy, but instead as victims of the same Enemy (the leadership of the Other Side if it was especially criminal, as with the German and Japanese wartime leadership). Thus... those people brought you the war, shamed your nation, wrecked your lives, wasted the lives of loved ones, gutted your prosperity

Maybe people confused and helpless are not so easy to see as a dangerous enemy. So the victors compel the hungry soldiers to exchange swords for plowshares. So demobilized German soldiers plant grain and demobilized Japanese soldiers go to the rice paddies to harvest the rice. The victors might learn that there is more to the enemy -- maybe some great culture. Many American soldiers on occupation duty returned with a German or Japanese wife, something unimaginable before the summer of 1945.

But this Crisis will probably involve no war. People will often feel defeated, especially if they survive COVID-19 yet have unpleasant and permanent harm to their health -- or if they have lost loved ones. But the losses will not be linked to weapons. There will be no war brides.

COVID-19 is the one enemy that Americans will be delighted to have exterminated... but as a virus, it has nothing to elicit sympathy.

[Isoko]

The crisis though is not over...it is only just beginning...

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-02-2020, 12:10 PM)Isoko Wrote: The crisis though is not over...it is only just beginning...

The boomers are aging out. People keep trying to extend the crisis beyond the time when boomers are in the prophet-nomad-civic configuration, but I am willing to bet that when the bug is beat, people will be ready to lock down the solution, shut down the old values, and get materialistic again. In other words, they will switch to the high attitude.

In terms of the boomers being in the leadership position, we are towards the end.

[Mickey123]

(06-02-2020, 01:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-02-2020, 12:10 PM)Isoko Wrote: The crisis though is not over...it is only just beginning...

The boomers are aging out.  People keep trying to extend the crisis beyond the time when boomers are in the prophet-nomad-civic configuration, but I am willing to bet that when the bug is beat, people will be ready to lock down the solution, shut down the old values, and get materialistic again.  In other words, they will switch to the high attitude.

In terms of the boomers being in the leadership position, we are towards the end.

This is impossible.  You can't magically go from an unraveling culture to a high culture with almost no transition.

If we're near the end, the only way we can get there soon is with a massive explosion of blinding violence and chaos.  The U.S. doesn't get out of this crisis without a civil or revolutionary war.  The coronavirus is nothing.

[Eric the Green]

(06-02-2020, 02:24 PM)Mickey123 Wrote:

(06-02-2020, 01:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-02-2020, 12:10 PM)Isoko Wrote: The crisis though is not over...it is only just beginning...

The boomers are aging out.  People keep trying to extend the crisis beyond the time when boomers are in the prophet-nomad-civic configuration, but I am willing to bet that when the bug is beat, people will be ready to lock down the solution, shut down the old values, and get materialistic again.  In other words, they will switch to the high attitude.

In terms of the boomers being in the leadership position, we are towards the end.

This is impossible.  You can't magically go from an unraveling culture to a high culture with almost no transition.

If we're near the end, the only way we can get there soon is with a massive explosion of blinding violence and chaos.  The U.S. doesn't get out of this crisis without a civil or revolutionary war.  The coronavirus is nothing.

The coronavirus is something, and kills more than just the old and the sick, but otherwise I agree with you Mickey. To claim the boomers are aging out and that they are not in the configuration anymore, is unhistorical, goes against the T4T Generations theory, and does not take into account that Silents are still in leadership positions, let alone Boomers. People are living longer today, not shorter, so the long-term trend is now for longer saecula, not shorter. 70 is the new 40. Mr. Howe, the first and still-leading expert on the saeculum, says this 4T will not be over until 2030. He is wiser about this than all of us here who comment on his work.

I have long agreed with him and have said so all through the existence of these forums. We were in crisis already just from the global recession in 2008, as I predicted, and since then we be 4T. The problems that caused it, the inequality of oligarchic rule and lack of economic mobility, have not gone away. Racism still flares up society, as we see, and gun violence is too rampant. The climate change crisis must be dealt with in this turning, or civilization dies. The division of society and the systemic denials of democracy are keeping incompetent, reactionary, dated rulership in power. 

We must face these as well as Nature's revenge or we fade away. Big changes will be needed to deal with them. Society will need to mobilize, or choose sides and fight it out. We can't just go back to a high culture without going through a transition to face and beat these problems, at least enough so that we CAN go back to normalcy. Until we get going on solutions and institutionalize them so they stay in motion after the 4T, they will keep flaring up. The D-Day, the Gettysburg, the decisive moment, will come around 2025. 2020 will not be the moment, at least not the decisive one. But it will be the Bleeding Kansas; the catalyst to make the 2020s the true decade of crisis in this fading saeculum.

[Eric the Green]

(05-26-2020, 06:38 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-26-2020, 01:46 PM)LPDec63 Wrote:

(05-25-2020, 10:14 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-22-2020, 09:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-20-2020, 09:52 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: In what ways might you feel as though the whole saga of COVID-19 have a perfect storm quality to it?  Do you feel that it is now the essential workers/first responders turn to shine?  Might there still be those who may want to play and shut out and ignore anything ugly that is ruining any and all picture perfect days?  Might we call this the Nero fiddle syndrome?  Sometimes life is messy and not exactly what we’d envisioned.

There is a honor to the essential workers and first responders element.  Let’s give honor to that.

The Nero Fiddle Syndrome has always been a part of the red unraveling mindset.  Any problem that is too expensive to run on a small government with low taxes just gets called a hoax or fake news.  They just want to play in their picture perfect world and dream on.  They would prefer to ignore the science, and ignore any responsibility for the future.  They make it about their rights not about benefiting the community.

COVID-19 is unlike most other problems in that it comes home to roost fast.  If you ignore the problem, it hits your community hard and fast.  It makes it hard to just ignore the problem and hope it will go away.  Some will try.  There seems to be a conservative right to live in their dream world.  One should never be forced to commit to the community, to be concerned more with the country than one’s self.

In that it is a sort of perfect storm.

The other thing is the timing.  It seems to be leaving enough time that by the election it will be absolutely clear that something has to be done and that the selfish people trying to live in the past blew it.

I think that is enough?

That's the hinge on this gate: 'we' or 'me'!  The 'me' crowd is getting more invested in magical thinking by the day, so let's agree that they aren't the source of a solution to this problem or any problem that needs a coordinated response.  They are also a relatively large contingent, so they can't be ignored.  Since they will fight any coordinated effort as an infringement on their right to do as they damn well please, it's hard to see anything more effective than muddle.  4Ts aren't about muddle.  Scary!

A lot of those "Me" folks were born in the 70's, which were once known as the "Me Decade".  

What we need is a "We Decade".

In theory, the Millennials were expected to fill that role, but too many live in the virtual world to be reliable advocates (to say nothing of actors) in the real world.  Of course, that can change quickly, and may be changing outside my range of vision for all I know. What I don't see is a real leader of any generation who can move us forward.  Bernie Sanders gave it a good shot, but came up short twice.  No one else is viable.

I think the times will make a leader.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-02-2020, 02:24 PM)Mickey123 Wrote:

(06-02-2020, 01:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-02-2020, 12:10 PM)Isoko Wrote: The crisis though is not over...it is only just beginning...

The boomers are aging out.  People keep trying to extend the crisis beyond the time when boomers are in the prophet-nomad-civic configuration, but I am willing to bet that when the bug is beat, people will be ready to lock down the solution, shut down the old values, and get materialistic again.  In other words, they will switch to the high attitude.

In terms of the boomers being in the leadership position, we are towards the end.

This is impossible.  You can't magically go from an unraveling culture to a high culture with almost no transition.

If we're near the end, the only way we can get there soon is with a massive explosion of blinding violence and chaos.  The U.S. doesn't get out of this crisis without a civil or revolutionary war.  The coronavirus is nothing.

Why not?  It has always been so before.  After Yorktown, Appomattox Court House and the World War II surrenders there were wind downs to the crisis as the never again documents were written, then we went into the high configuration.  Poof.  Magic.

With nukes being prominent, there are fewer trigger events.  Nothing is apt to set us off again.  While the US didn’t go though a classic crisis war, they thoroughly stressed and exhausted both the regulars and reserves in Bush 43’s wars.  There is a reluctance to put boots on the ground again, a perception that violence does not solve problems but makes them worse.  This will do nicely as the equivalent of a crisis war in making a repeat unlikely.

I know some are obsessed by violence.  To them, the S&H theory is an excuse for their fantasies.  I am less blinded by an assumption that the Industrial Age and the Information Age are identical.  I care about turnings, ages and civilizations all, and find the S&H crowd’s obsession with turnings limiting.  The basic pattern of ages has shifted.  You cannot assume that what was true in one age will hold true in the next.  You need to observe and verify patterns continuing and watch for the shifts which ought to be expected.

War was cost effective for much of the Industrial Age.  A conflict would start as soon as the economy was in good shape again, and someone greedy thought they had an advantage.  Nukes made it much less so, and changed a lot of things.  Some are obsessed with violence, and decline to see the change.