The Partisan Divide on Issues

[pbrower2a]

(06-06-2020, 07:24 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-05-2020, 06:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Pushing back, CNN tells of Buffalo officers quit special team after 2 officers suspended for allegedly shoving 75-year-old to ground.

First report lately of the police resisting the new drive for them to reduce excessive use of force.

Let them quit?  Fire them completely?

Self selection has to occur if the anti-social cops need to move on. The alternative is mass firings, and that seems unlikely.  Even NYC and LA, both with histories of bad cops, will opt for ease out over throw out.  Change a few policies, and let the bad to marginal cops decide to comply or quit.  If firing is needed, keep it rare.

I suspect that police work is becoming more attractive. It pays well enough to attract college graduates who think that they can do more good by ameliorating a family argument than by hustling underwear in a store or busting drunk drivers instead of plying drinks to people on the margin of drunkenness. By attracting more college graduates it might attract more people with humanistic learning and values. Police work of attracts authoritarian types who seek to order others about. So you make the swift arrest of drug dealers and haul the suspects to the jail... and maybe some other cop will find illegal substances deposited in the back seat of the squad car. That doesn't take much authoritarianism -- just obedience. Procedures save trouble, and when procedures aren't adequate... attack a cop and die.

It has been fashionable in the recent past to hire 'tough cops' to fit the politics of the time. All cops must at some point confront someone who has done a particularly heinous crime and expect the worst. But much of the time the cop's job is to defuse a bad situation, maybe as the equivalent of a the dog who breaks up a cat fight.   Maybe cops are not quite social workers with a badge, but sometimes that is the role. We need cops who will take that role.  

Cops need to recognize that the safety of someone under arrest is part of the job. That is where the failure occurred. Cops need also take responsibility to monitor dangerous situations for criminal suspects as for themselves. Several cops failed in Minneapolis, or so it seems, one who put a knee on a suspect's throat and three others who did not urge that cop to relax the knee. 

It is easy to forget that as humans we are large, dangerous creatures. We are almost bears by size; we simply lack the horrible claws and teeth of bears. We certainly have the weight, so we can do much harm just by placing it upon another creature in a harsh way. We are also vulnerable at our throats, as is the case for almost all mammals. It may be crude to put it this way, but some of the most effective ways of killing someone involve the throat and neck -- ligature strangulation, throat-cutting, beheading, and of course one of the most venerable ways of execution and suicide... hanging. Hanging either breaks the neck, severs the spinal cord, shuts off the carotid artery, or stops the jugular vein, any of which either stops blood from flowing to the heart or the brain or stops the brain from sending signals to vital organs including most immediately the heart and lungs. I once saw mentions of two animals as possible enemies, and the main principle was the same: protect your neck. The two animals were lions and dogs. I regret that I needed be so explicit in this paragraph.  

Cops need conscience if they are to do their job well. Note well -- one of the favorite jobs for future offenders is... police officer. Just think of the "droogs" in A Clockwork Orange who go from being partners in the criminal violence of "Alex  De Large" to persecuting him as brutal cops on the police force.

[David Horn]

(06-06-2020, 04:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-06-2020, 07:24 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-05-2020, 06:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Pushing back, CNN tells of Buffalo officers quit special team after 2 officers suspended for allegedly shoving 75-year-old to ground.

First report lately of the police resisting the new drive for them to reduce excessive use of force.

Let them quit?  Fire them completely?

Self selection has to occur if the anti-social cops need to move on. The alternative is mass firings, and that seems unlikely.  Even NYC and LA, both with histories of bad cops, will opt for ease out over throw out.  Change a few policies, and let the bad to marginal cops decide to comply or quit.  If firing is needed, keep it rare.

I think it needs to go faster than that. Cops who defend brutality and veiled racism should be fired. Police unions should be handcuffed so they are representing the economic interest of police workers and not defending brutality. I salute the police chiefs and mayors who have said that we don't need these cops on the force. Those who can be educated and retrained might be able to stay.

It's true the bad cops need to be replaced, and that could take a while, but it should not take too long.

Crime is higher in ethnic poor communities, and that creates fear and stress on police. Neighborhood policing by the people who live there is key. More social workers is key. Education of young black guys needs to improve too. Schools in poor ethnic neighborhoods are underfunded. Obviously, these schools should teach students that crime and violence is never justified no matter how poor we are, as well as to teach the real possibilities to succeed in life and help provide the tools. Black musicians,  rap artists, actors and athletes need to teach that lesson through their work too. They are upper class now, and have a responsibility to teach young people to respect the law, as well as to fight the necessary battles against racism, criminal injustice, and class oppression, and the deprivation that happens through Reaganomics.

People are pretty good at reading the tealeaves, when it's THEIR tealeaves. If I'm in it for the power trip, and policies change to make that dangerous to me personally, I'll find the door on my own.  We're talking about bullies here, and bullies also tend to be cowards.

[David Horn]

(06-06-2020, 04:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-03-2020, 07:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Again, this time in Florida, a police officer shoved a peaceful minority protestor and turned a peaceful crowd into a confrontation.  He has been removed from any contact with the public, and the attorney general has opened an investigation.

That has got to become the expected norm.  If the police are the ones to instigate the violence, the system has got to respond to end it.

Exactly so.

Here, we all agree.

[Bob Butler 54]

I saw a cartoon recently.  In it a young kid asked her grandfather if he’d ever wanted to see the demonstrations of the 1960s, the Flu epidemic of 1917, the Civil War and the Great Depression, all at once?  The little guy in the corner said no.    It's amazing that such a little character could generate such large text.  From the grandfather’s expression, he agreed.

Nitpick.  Digging into the Gettysburg campaign, I ran into one story.  Stuart’s force was riding through the Union rear, and captured a northern deserter.  Or so they thought.  I mean, what else could he be, an able bodied man dressed in civilian clothes?  It took some convincing, but the locals finally convinced the southerners that the north had several ways that a rich family could avoid service.  This guy really was legit.

The southerners considered this for a few moments.  Finally, one spoke.  “This bodes ill for our cause.”

Anyway, nitpick, we have not mobilized to the degree we did during the Civil War.  Not even close.  The list might have better included the Civil Rights movement rather than the Civil War, but they had already invoked the 1960s.

But otherwise…

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-07-2020, 07:33 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-06-2020, 04:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-03-2020, 07:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Again, this time in Florida, a police officer shoved a peaceful minority protestor and turned a peaceful crowd into a confrontation.  He has been removed from any contact with the public, and the attorney general has opened an investigation.

That has got to become the expected norm.  If the police are the ones to instigate the violence, the system has got to respond to end it.

Exactly so.

Here, we all agree.

Not clear.  Some of our posters are coming in on the side of the racist, violent cops.  Oh, they don't quite present it that way.  They tiptoe around it.  They are pro Trump and against the looters rather that explicitly advocating racist and violent police behavior, the behavior many are protesting against.  Still.

Many cities are limiting curfews and banning chokeholds for cops.  It is getting to the point of deciding exactly what has to be done to end the problematic behavior.  Any other nominations?

[Bob Butler 54]

This time Virginia.  As reported by CNN, a police officer used his stun gun against a black man who is seen in a video as making no more threatening action than chanting a slogan. Apparently the video was body cam footage, police video.  An officer is being charged with violating the department's use of force policy.

[Bob Butler 54]

Another report from CNN.  Apparently nine members of the city council are aiming to defund and eliminate the city police department.  It is a veto proof majority.  Drastic, but perhaps necessary given their history.

[pbrower2a]

There will be a need to reorganize a police department. Note well that there could be a city-county arrangement, so this might not be as radical as it looks.

Community-based policing works well. The cops often operate a storefront as if it were a business enterprise. Dallas did so in some Asian neighborhoods in which many of the people, recent immigrants from Vietnam and Cambodia, were accustomed to corrupt police. So establish some rapport with the community and develop trust.

[David Horn]

(06-07-2020, 01:38 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-07-2020, 07:33 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-06-2020, 04:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-03-2020, 07:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Again, this time in Florida, a police officer shoved a peaceful minority protestor and turned a peaceful crowd into a confrontation.  He has been removed from any contact with the public, and the attorney general has opened an investigation.

That has got to become the expected norm.  If the police are the ones to instigate the violence, the system has got to respond to end it.

Exactly so.

Here, we all agree.

Not clear.  Some of our posters are coming in on the side of the racist, violent cops.  Oh, they don't quite present it that way.  They tiptoe around it.  They are pro Trump and against the looters rather that explicitly advocating racist and violent police behavior, the behavior many are protesting against.  Still.

Many cities are limiting curfews and banning chokeholds for cops.  It is getting to the point of deciding exactly what has to be done to end the problematic behavior.  Any other nominations?

By 'we', I meant we three, but your point is important. It's hard to know just how far Trump has to go to alienate his most loyal followers.  Supporting police violence seems to be popular among a small but highly ideological minority -- all Trump fans to the death.

[pbrower2a]

(06-08-2020, 09:17 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-07-2020, 01:38 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-07-2020, 07:33 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-06-2020, 04:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-03-2020, 07:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Again, this time in Florida, a police officer shoved a peaceful minority protestor and turned a peaceful crowd into a confrontation.  He has been removed from any contact with the public, and the attorney general has opened an investigation.

That has got to become the expected norm.  If the police are the ones to instigate the violence, the system has got to respond to end it.

Exactly so.

Here, we all agree.

Not clear.  Some of our posters are coming in on the side of the racist, violent cops.  Oh, they don't quite present it that way.  They tiptoe around it.  They are pro Trump and against the looters rather that explicitly advocating racist and violent police behavior, the behavior many are protesting against.  Still.

Many cities are limiting curfews and banning chokeholds for cops.  It is getting to the point of deciding exactly what has to be done to end the problematic behavior.  Any other nominations?

By 'we', I meant we three, but your point is important. It's hard to know just how far Trump has to go to alienate his most loyal followers.  Supporting police violence seems to be popular among a small but highly ideological minority -- all Trump fans to the death.

Unless someone is talking about me -- I am for law and order as a necessary (but far from sufficient) condition for allowing people to have civil liberties. Lawlessness is not liberty, but such is so whatever side one is of the badge, whether a looter or a brutal cop. We need to drum out the bad cops and retrain the rest so that they are less likely to confront when no confrontation is necessary. 

Peaceful demonstrations are necessary for calling elected officials to account when there is no immediate election or when power is entrenched locally in one party or clique. Looting, property destruction, and assaults are not part of a peaceful demonstration... and people who do those things have no reliable friends among peaceful demonstrators. The same camcorder that someone brings to record any incident of police brutality can be turned just as easily on someone smashing a store window to grab something in a display case.

[Bob Butler 54]

One of Maddow’s guests tonight rose an interesting point. He is an academic, among other things having studied other cities who had to restart their police forces from scratch. In almost every union contract is a clause that says the last person hired is the first be let go. If you defund the police, if you take away money enough for them to reduce numbers, you are going to put the younger idealist out of a job while leaving the older folk set in the prejudicial ways in charge.

I’m hearing he is advising the City Council in Milwaukee, with their veto proof nine members out to change things. Basically, you have to totally let go of everybody and start from scratch.

Also, the police unions seem to be more and more being presented as the bad guys. They are used to the violent policing style and will not let go without a fight.

Seems to me they are going to have a fight.

[sbarrera]

(06-08-2020, 10:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: One of Maddow’s guests tonight rose an interesting point.  He is an academic, among other things having studied other cities who had to restart their police forces from scratch.  In almost every union contract is a clause that says the last person hired is the first be let go.  If you defund the police, if you take away money enough for them to reduce numbers, you are going to put the younger idealist out of a job while leaving the older folk set in the prejudicial ways in charge.

I’m hearing he is advising the City Council in Milwaukee, with their veto proof nine members out to change things.  Basically, you have to totally let go of everybody and start from scratch.

Also, the police unions seem to be more and more being presented as the bad guys.  They are used to the violent policing style and will not let go without a fight.

Seems to me they are going to have a fight.

It's come down to a struggle to the finish between the two sides of the partisan divide. You could think of it as part of Cold Civil War. I think the odds favor the Blue State on this one - and it may well require completely eliminating and rebuilding the police forces.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-10-2020, 03:13 PM)sbarrera Wrote:

(06-08-2020, 10:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: One of Maddow’s guests tonight rose an interesting point.  He is an academic, among other things having studied other cities who had to restart their police forces from scratch.  In almost every union contract is a clause that says the last person hired is the first be let go.  If you defund the police, if you take away money enough for them to reduce numbers, you are going to put the younger idealist out of a job while leaving the older folk set in the prejudicial ways in charge.

I’m hearing he is advising the City Council in Milwaukee, with their veto proof nine members out to change things.  Basically, you have to totally let go of everybody and start from scratch.

Also, the police unions seem to be more and more being presented as the bad guys.  They are used to the violent policing style and will not let go without a fight.

Seems to me they are going to have a fight.

It's come down to a struggle to the finish between the two sides of the partisan divide. You could think of it as part of Cold Civil War. I think the odds favor the Blue State on this one - and it may well require completely eliminating and rebuilding the police forces.

I can definitely see replacing the whole force in Minneapolis and perhaps Buffalo.  This accompanied by the federal bill coming out of the House is a good start.  I feel a bit hesitant to defund every police force.

[David Horn]

(06-10-2020, 03:33 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-10-2020, 03:13 PM)sbarrera Wrote:

(06-08-2020, 10:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: One of Maddow’s guests tonight rose an interesting point.  He is an academic, among other things having studied other cities who had to restart their police forces from scratch.  In almost every union contract is a clause that says the last person hired is the first be let go.  If you defund the police, if you take away money enough for them to reduce numbers, you are going to put the younger idealist out of a job while leaving the older folk set in the prejudicial ways in charge.

I’m hearing he is advising the City Council in Milwaukee, with their veto proof nine members out to change things.  Basically, you have to totally let go of everybody and start from scratch.

Also, the police unions seem to be more and more being presented as the bad guys.  They are used to the violent policing style and will not let go without a fight.

Seems to me they are going to have a fight.

It's come down to a struggle to the finish between the two sides of the partisan divide. You could think of it as part of Cold Civil War. I think the odds favor the Blue State on this one - and it may well require completely eliminating and rebuilding the police forces.

I can definitely see replacing the whole force in Milwaukee and perhaps Buffalo.  This accompanied by the federal bill coming out of the House is a good start.  I feel a bit hesitant to defund every police force.

I doubt that replacing the entire force is needed everywhere, but major restructuring, downsizing and the use on non-police 1st responders whenever possible, may be the new model. It's already being used in some smaller cities, and very successfully.

... and I think you mean Minneapolis, not Milwaukee.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-10-2020, 05:40 PM)David Horn Wrote: ... and I think you mean Minneapolis, not Milwaukee.

You mean they are different?  

[David Horn]

(06-10-2020, 05:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-10-2020, 05:40 PM)David Horn Wrote: ... and I think you mean Minneapolis, not Milwaukee.

You mean they are different?  

Advice: avoid that argument in the Upper Midwest. 

[pbrower2a]

What -- are Fort Worth and Fort Wayne more similar to each other than Milwaukee and Minneapolis?

[Classic-Xer]

(06-10-2020, 03:13 PM)sbarrera Wrote:

(06-08-2020, 10:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: One of Maddow’s guests tonight rose an interesting point.  He is an academic, among other things having studied other cities who had to restart their police forces from scratch.  In almost every union contract is a clause that says the last person hired is the first be let go.  If you defund the police, if you take away money enough for them to reduce numbers, you are going to put the younger idealist out of a job while leaving the older folk set in the prejudicial ways in charge.

I’m hearing he is advising the City Council in Milwaukee, with their veto proof nine members out to change things.  Basically, you have to totally let go of everybody and start from scratch.

Also, the police unions seem to be more and more being presented as the bad guys.  They are used to the violent policing style and will not let go without a fight.

Seems to me they are going to have a fight.

It's come down to a struggle to the finish between the two sides of the partisan divide. You could think of it as part of Cold Civil War. I think the odds favor the Blue State on this one - and it may well require completely eliminating and rebuilding the police forces.

Ain't much of struggle between the so called partisan divide at this point with Red America remaining neutral for the most part at this point while  whatever partisan divide or cultural rift that still exists within blue America is being settled. What you've been watching and seeing lately mainly pertains to blue America these days with the other side waiting to see which side of the blue divide prevails as the victor. I hate to say this but if your side doesn't have the balls to control a bunch of radicals nuts and a bunch criminals then you and every other clueless fool who posts here are going to get a taste of what it was like to live in the wild west. That seems to be the direction that the nuts and the criminals want to take blue America at this point and the liberal Democrats seem more eager to appease and cater to their demands then stop them at this point.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-11-2020, 07:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Ain't much of struggle between the so called partisan divide  at this point with Red America remaining  neutral for the most part at this point while  whatever partisan divide or cultural rift that still exists within blue America is being settled. What you've been  watching and seeing lately mainly pertains to blue America these days with the other side waiting to see which side of the blue divide prevails as the victor. I hate to say this but if your side doesn't have the balls to control a bunch of radicals  nuts and a bunch criminals then you and every other clueless fool who posts here are going to get a taste of what it was like to live in the wild west. That  seems to be the direction that the nuts and the criminals want to take blue America at this point and the liberal Democrats seem more eager to appease and cater to their demands then stop them at this point.

The looters and the Bugaboo Bois seem to be fading somewhat.  They seem to be giving up the stage.  Perhaps the few incidents where the protesters turned the violent over to the police contributed, but the protesters have been on center stage alone for the last few days.  The curfews have mostly been dropped, decriminalizing assembly and partitioning for the right of grievances and putting the onus on stopping to the violence on the too violent police.

I have always thought of the reds having a racist element, one that they generally do not push hard, but which Trump by encouraging the KKK, the Neo Nazi, the racist police, and using the military against the American people, has cashed in on.  I suspect the the vehemence of the current protest is in part a reaction against the red resonance with racist attitudes.

But with the exception of Trump and the White House administration, the red celebration of racism seems to have stepped back down in the last few weeks.  Like, when one of the recent protests takes shape, you don’t see the KKK or the Neo Nazi counter demonstrating in favor of racism.  At the moment the voice of the people is for all men being equal under law, and this has taken a crisis heart intensity of resolve.  Well might the reds, Republicans, violent police unions, KKK and Neo Nazi make themselves scarce just now.  If the civics are finally following S&H’s call to redefine what will be acceptable after the crisis, thank you, and it is about time.  If they would only show as strong a reaction against those that ignore the isolation guidelines.

But I see it as the people taking the lead and the Democrats attempting to jump on the bandwagon.  The Republican seem caught between the bandwagon and keeping the racist vote, and thus as you say are pretty much sitting this one out.  They don’t seem to see the culture changing as much of the racist culture is being submerged.

[Eric the Green]

Trump seems to be doubling down hard on his racist and repressive stands. He adamantly crushes demands to rename military bases in the South named after confederate generals. Why make such a big deal out of this? I admit I didn't even know who they were named after. But why make a fuss and why not just go along with the trend?

And when people in Seattle take over an area outside a police station and occupy it and announce they are turning it into a community center, Mr. Drump jumps in and says to Seattle, take back the area or I will do it for you. Despite the criticism he got from his own and other former generals about such rhetoric, he does not apologize but doubles down. Meanwhile he tweets his disdain for those who criticized him. Nothing unusual there.

And he does not agree with taking away criminal immunity from police, even though that is a principle roadblock in the way of reform.

I'm sure there are other examples of Trump double-downs, but those are what come to mind.