The Maelstrom of Violence

[Bob Butler 54]

While for the most part the insurgent protests did not emerge during the inauguration, there were some protests and violence in Portland.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-21-2021, 02:07 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-20-2021, 01:14 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 12:20 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 12:54 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The federal regeneracy is going to fall flat on its face. Trump had less than a month to try and prove the impossible pertaining to mass voter fraud. The Supreme Court decided it was best for them to remain neutral. You better get your facts straight because the Democrats are the only game in town and the only group left to blame at this point. We may decide to keep it that way and leave the party for the barbarians to finish off. Welcome to the 4T. The beginning of the end of the Democratic party as a whole starts this Wednesday.

Massive voter fraud can't be easily hidden, so yes, one month was more than enough time to find evidence -- any evidence -- yet none was found.

It can be hidden when elections laws are changed illegally and left as is for the most part and the voter turn out is much higher on both sides than normal across the entire country. Okay. You won by default because the numbers weren't heavily skewed. You elected a President who is mentally incompetent and you have a VP who isn't there because she's great or she's popular or she was really good at governing a state or managing anything important (including her own Presidential campaign) . So, what should happen to you and the others here who didn't use their brains, didn't listen, didn't care and those who are dumb enough or desperate enough or greedy enough or deviant enough to go along with electing Biden.

So changing laws, or their interpretation at least, is illegal when your side loses, but perfectly fine when you win. Got it!  And of course, challenges to state lawsfrom our of state are great under those same rules. Apparently the courts, including courts overseen by RW judges, don't agree.

C-Xer Wrote:Here's the deal, you are about to face the wrath of the American people and about to experience a repeat of American history and the Democrats are probably (maybe there's enough worth while Democrats left who are willing to fall on their swords to prevent the inevitable collision between the Left and the American right) on the verge of being removed by force or left to be over run by an angry hoard of barbarians that it created as the rest of America watches. Either way, your time (the time of the Progressive  Democrats) is coming to an end. In short, you have met your match. Eric has met his match and PB and Bob will prove to be worthless non factors when the all the violence and disruption starts.

You seem to love threatening the wrath of the "American people", yet your side lost.  So who are the 81 Million if not Americans?

As an aside: only 1%+/- of the MAGA voters are in the game.  90+% of those loudmouths are all talk.  Of the remaining ~10%, most are incompetent at revolutionary action, so you have maybe 2% of 1% who will act.  That's about the number that attacked Congress, and they sucked at it.

Aren't you all talk? Aren't the bulk of you all talk? I talk some but not nearly as much as all of you guys talk here. I spend more time doing than sitting on my ass talking dude. I also spend more of my time talking to people face to face and settling disputes face to face or on a phone than I spend writing stuff with people like you, writing responses, writing predictions and trying to show and explain the difference between the way American see things and the Democrats see things to you and others here.

Our side barely lost a heavily rigged election that had illegal election law changes along with the assistance of tech giants, cable news giants, national channel giants who were hammering us, calling us this and that, banning us and shutting us up, partisan Democrats controlling national debates, partisan Democrats as moderators directly participating in debates along with Biden, withholding information for several months and billions being spent by oligarch's, Chinese nationalists, Russian nationalists, European nationalists and Uber-elites supporting all sorts of anarchist groups doing as they please for several months. So, what do you think, should we continue to support and continue being nice or begin to the pull the plug and become more divisive and disruptive and threatening than before and cause the Democratic system fail and watch as millions of Democratic beliefs and dreams are shattered. Dude, we are still standing and we are all still united under the America first banner and there are no limitations on we can do as a group either.

I was working on a boiler in the home of a leftist today. I had to listen to a bunch of Democrats talking to themselves on NPR for a couple of hours today. I'd say the Democrats are pretty high on themselves and out of touch with reality as far as the rest of the country goes and where the rest of the country is at right now. It's to bad they don't have anyone other than themselves to listen to or ask questions, listen to or learn from these days other themselves and those who agree with them. So, who is paying for NPR these day? Is the Democratic party paying for it or is America paying still paying for it? Who is paying for PBS? The Democrats or America?

BTW, the percent who sucked succeeded in scaring the shit out of bunch of careless Democratic politicians with big mouths but little substance and caused/forced them to overact and go into coccoon mode and revealed their true nature and true color as well. I figure that was all that was needed/intended for now. I didn't hear anything about any violence that took place outside of Washington DC on inauguration day other than the constant violence occurring in Portland and Seattle that's been going on several months.

[pbrower2a]

It is impossible to prove a non-existent fraud. There is less shadiness in the 2020 Presidential election than there was in 2000. Still we have ways in which to define who wins and does not in accordance with the laws that include procedures for administering the election and counting the votes. In all of the states that were close there have been opportunities for both Parties to clamp down on any possibility of electoral fraud through

• tampering with machines
  
• forged ballots introduced into electoral devices
  
• falsification of voting results
  
• ineligible votes (such as by the deceased)
  
• intimidation of voters
  
• people voting in multiple places
  

This time we had a possible cheat, and it was a non-human participant: COVID-19, a literal threat to anyone who appeared at the polls. COVID-19 is about as welcome at a polling place as is an armed militia that threatens voters with such a message as "VOTE HERE AND DIE". Law enforcement could clear out a militia with such a message, but it can't remove the SARS-2 virus.

Extended time for voting and absentee ballots without excuses can not drive COVID-19 away, but it can certainly keep people from deciding to not vote. If there is any perception that COVID-19 discriminates against any ethnic minority, then states have every right to protect that minority. If it is white people -- likewise.

There were law suits by people associated with the Trump campaign, and they fell flat.  Some states had recounts as mandated by law. Those worked against Trump. 

So you tell me where the cheat was and what the cheat was. So the count came in slow?

Let's take a look at another election. Yes, it was obvious on November 4, 2008  that if Obama amassed 193 electoral votes by 11 PM he was going to win the Presidency because Obama was seen as sure to win California, Hawaii, Oregon, and Washington with their 77 electoral votes.  At 8:59 ET Obama had amassed 102 electoral votes. Quick calls in several states (MI, MN, NY, RI, and WI) put Obama at 175. There were plenty of states that were close and not yet called, and some yet to even close their polling. 

At 9:23 PM, about everyone concluded that the Republicans had run out of votes in Ohio, and Obama was going to win Ohio. That put Obama at 185. It's over except for waiting for the votes to come in from the West Coast. Well, we know the rest. 

It took two days to count the votes to decide North Carolina, and fifteen days to count the vote in Missouri. Slow counting is possible. Quick calls indicate that the margin is large enough that only a fool would deny the final result. Slow counts indicate a tight margin. Votes counted late (in some states the absentee ballots had to be counted last, and those paradoxically included the first ballots cast) count as much as those cast on Election Day. 

States counted their votes in different orders. Biden started out with leads in Florida, Ohio, and Texas, all of which he lost. 

Yes, yes, yes... I know that you are disappointed with the result. Well guess how I felt in 2016? Elections don't all go our way, do they? Maybe the 74 million who voted for Trump were more convinced that Trump was the necessary choice for a "real America" as you describe it and that the 81 million who voted against him acted in treachery, malice, or delusion (if that is how you see it). That is not how we decide an election.

[Eric the Green]

(01-21-2021, 07:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-21-2021, 02:07 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-20-2021, 01:14 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 12:20 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 12:54 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The federal regeneracy is going to fall flat on its face. Trump had less than a month to try and prove the impossible pertaining to mass voter fraud. The Supreme Court decided it was best for them to remain neutral. You better get your facts straight because the Democrats are the only game in town and the only group left to blame at this point. We may decide to keep it that way and leave the party for the barbarians to finish off. Welcome to the 4T. The beginning of the end of the Democratic party as a whole starts this Wednesday.

Massive voter fraud can't be easily hidden, so yes, one month was more than enough time to find evidence -- any evidence -- yet none was found.

It can be hidden when elections laws are changed illegally and left as is for the most part and the voter turn out is much higher on both sides than normal across the entire country. Okay. You won by default because the numbers weren't heavily skewed. You elected a President who is mentally incompetent and you have a VP who isn't there because she's great or she's popular or she was really good at governing a state or managing anything important (including her own Presidential campaign) . So, what should happen to you and the others here who didn't use their brains, didn't listen, didn't care and those who are dumb enough or desperate enough or greedy enough or deviant enough to go along with electing Biden.

So changing laws, or their interpretation at least, is illegal when your side loses, but perfectly fine when you win. Got it!  And of course, challenges to state lawsfrom our of state are great under those same rules. Apparently the courts, including courts overseen by RW judges, don't agree.

C-Xer Wrote:Here's the deal, you are about to face the wrath of the American people and about to experience a repeat of American history and the Democrats are probably (maybe there's enough worth while Democrats left who are willing to fall on their swords to prevent the inevitable collision between the Left and the American right) on the verge of being removed by force or left to be over run by an angry hoard of barbarians that it created as the rest of America watches. Either way, your time (the time of the Progressive  Democrats) is coming to an end. In short, you have met your match. Eric has met his match and PB and Bob will prove to be worthless non factors when the all the violence and disruption starts.

You seem to love threatening the wrath of the "American people", yet your side lost.  So who are the 81 Million if not Americans?

As an aside: only 1%+/- of the MAGA voters are in the game.  90+% of those loudmouths are all talk.  Of the remaining ~10%, most are incompetent at revolutionary action, so you have maybe 2% of 1% who will act.  That's about the number that attacked Congress, and they sucked at it.

Aren't you all talk? Aren't the bulk of you all talk? I talk some but not nearly as much as all of you guys talk here. I spend more time doing than sitting on my ass talking dude. I also spend more of my time talking to people face to face and settling disputes face to face or on a phone than I spend writing stuff with people like you, writing responses, writing predictions and trying to show and explain the difference between the way American see things and the Democrats see things to you and others here.

Our side barely lost a heavily rigged election that had  illegal election law changes along with the assistance of tech giants, cable news giants, national channel giants who were  hammering us, calling us this and that, banning us and shutting us up, partisan Democrats controlling national debates, partisan Democrats as moderators directly participating in debates along with Biden, withholding information for several months and billions being spent by oligarch's, Chinese nationalists, Russian nationalists, European nationalists and Uber-elites supporting all sorts of anarchist groups doing as they please for several months. So, what do you think, should we continue to support and continue being nice  or begin to the pull the plug and become more divisive and disruptive and threatening than before and cause  the Democratic system fail  and watch as millions of Democratic beliefs and dreams are shattered. Dude, we are still standing and we are all still united under the America first banner and there are no limitations on we can do as a group either.

I was  working on a boiler in the home of a leftist today. I had to listen to a bunch of Democrats talking to themselves on NPR for a couple of hours today. I'd say the Democrats are pretty high on themselves and out of touch with reality as far as the rest of the country goes and where the rest of the country is at right now. It's to bad they don't have anyone other than themselves to listen to or ask questions, listen to or learn from these days other themselves and those who agree with them. So, who is paying for NPR these day? Is the Democratic party paying for it or is America paying still paying for it? Who is paying for PBS? The Democrats or America?

BTW, the percent who sucked succeeded in scaring the shit out of bunch of careless Democratic politicians with big mouths but little substance and caused/forced them to overact and go into coccoon mode and revealed their true nature and true color as well. I figure that was all that was needed/intended for now. I didn't hear anything about any violence that took place outside of Washington DC on inauguration day other than the constant violence occurring in Portland and Seattle that's been going on several months.

Biden talks a lot about unity these days. Maybe he can convince McConnell to do the right thing, he thinks. Today McConnell tells him he made a couple of wrong decisions. He chose stopping the pipeline and rejoining the Paris Agreement as his wrong decisions out of the 17 he made; the very two things which I think are the most important decisions Biden made. McConnell implied these decisions put the new bipartisan unity in peril. And I think, we've got to stop McConnell. Where is the unity, then? How do we stop guys like you Classic Xer and guys like Mitch who want to pollute the world and boil it over so humans can no longer support civilization here? Speaking of boilers? How do we settle this? How do we get you guys out of power? How do we take your jobs away, dependent as you are on this effort to destroy our world?

[Classic-Xer]

(01-21-2021, 08:27 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It is impossible to prove a non-existent fraud. There is less shadiness in the 2020 Presidential election than there was in 2000. Still we have ways in which to define who wins and does not in accordance with the laws that include procedures for administering the election and counting the votes. In all of the states that were close there have been opportunities for both Parties to clamp down on any possibility of electoral fraud through

• tampering with machines
  
• forged ballots introduced into electoral devices
  
• falsification of voting results
  
• ineligible votes (such as by the deceased)
  
• intimidation of voters
  
• people voting in multiple places
  

This time we had a possible cheat, and it was a non-human participant: COVID-19, a literal threat to anyone who appeared at the polls. COVID-19 is about as welcome at a polling place as is an armed militia that threatens voters with such a message as "VOTE HERE AND DIE". Law enforcement could clear out a militia with such a message, but it can't remove the SARS-2 virus.

Extended time for voting and absentee ballots without excuses can not drive COVID-19 away, but it can certainly keep people from deciding to not vote. If there is any perception that COVID-19 discriminates against any ethnic minority, then states have every right to protect that minority. If it is white people -- likewise.

There were law suits by people associated with the Trump campaign, and they fell flat.  Some states had recounts as mandated by law. Those worked against Trump. 

So you tell me where the cheat was and what the cheat was. So the count came in slow?

Let's take a look at another election. Yes, it was obvious on November 4, 2008  that if Obama amassed 193 electoral votes by 11 PM he was going to win the Presidency because Obama was seen as sure to win California, Hawaii, Oregon, and Washington with their 77 electoral votes.  At 8:59 ET Obama had amassed 102 electoral votes. Quick calls in several states (MI, MN, NY, RI, and WI) put Obama at 175. There were plenty of states that were close and not yet called, and some yet to even close their polling. 

At 9:23 PM, about everyone concluded that the Republicans had run out of votes in Ohio, and Obama was going to win Ohio. That put Obama at 185. It's over except for waiting for the votes to come in from the West Coast. Well, we know the rest. 

It took two days to count the votes to decide North Carolina, and fifteen days to count the vote in Missouri. Slow counting is possible. Quick calls indicate that the margin is large enough that only a fool would deny the final result. Slow counts indicate a tight margin. Votes counted late (in some states the absentee ballots had to be counted last, and those paradoxically included the first ballots cast) count as much as those cast on Election Day. 

States counted their votes in different orders. Biden started out with leads in Florida, Ohio, and Texas, all of which he lost. 

Yes, yes, yes... I know that you are disappointed with the result. Well guess how I felt in 2016? Elections don't all go our way, do they? Maybe the 74 million who voted for Trump were more convinced that Trump was the necessary choice for a "real America" as you describe it and that the 81 million who voted against him acted in treachery, malice, or delusion (if that is how you see it). That is not how we decide an election.

The Supreme Court refused to get involved. So, its impossible to prove either way until the Supreme Court gets involved and makes a ruling on whether the use of courts to change state election laws in 2020 was legal or not. I suspect there will be a court decision on that issue by 2022. It's going to have to be done to keep the county together because the alternative is going to be a national split and an American war being fought where most of them live. If I were them, I'd ask myself which side is the bulk of the military related to and which side has supported them and how many of them with be left to protect them from the mob and vote accordingly.

Do you know how many Democratic/Biden votes were added due to all the illegal law changes? Do you know how to tell the difference between what would have been an illegal vote and a legal vote now that they've all been counted and declared legal votes? So, I don't really care about the result at this point. The decision has already been made by the political class (the political establishments) and everyone directly associated with them in DC and it's already been determined as legal by all of them. The result has been signed, sealed, delivered and declared official and there's nothing that can be done about it because it's a done deal.  

We know every Democrat and every Democratic lifestyle and every Democratic life is some how related or directly attached to the Democratic party and its existence one way or another. We know there are some Rhino's who are now in the same boat with the Democratic party whether they like it or not at this point. Ain't like that on the Republican side, the lives and lifestyles of the bulk of the Republican base are all directly attached to the American Constitution and the existence of the American country/state. So, that's pretty much where we are at as far as the national divide that exists within the country today. It appears that Biden has embraced Woke culture and will govern as Woke instead of a traditional Democrat. I assume that he's already prepping for his early departure and getting things ready for Kamala to become our next President or the first female Woke President.

[pbrower2a]

(01-22-2021, 04:49 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-21-2021, 08:27 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It is impossible to prove a non-existent fraud. There is less shadiness in the 2020 Presidential election than there was in 2000. Still we have ways in which to define who wins and does not in accordance with the laws that include procedures for administering the election and counting the votes. In all of the states that were close there have been opportunities for both Parties to clamp down on any possibility of electoral fraud through

• tampering with machines
  
• forged ballots introduced into electoral devices
  
• falsification of voting results
  
• ineligible votes (such as by the deceased)
  
• intimidation of voters
  
• people voting in multiple places
  

This time we had a possible cheat, and it was a non-human participant: COVID-19, a literal threat to anyone who appeared at the polls. COVID-19 is about as welcome at a polling place as is an armed militia that threatens voters with such a message as "VOTE HERE AND DIE". Law enforcement could clear out a militia with such a message, but it can't remove the SARS-2 virus.

Extended time for voting and absentee ballots without excuses can not drive COVID-19 away, but it can certainly keep people from deciding to not vote. If there is any perception that COVID-19 discriminates against any ethnic minority, then states have every right to protect that minority. If it is white people -- likewise.

There were law suits by people associated with the Trump campaign, and they fell flat.  Some states had recounts as mandated by law. Those worked against Trump. 

So you tell me where the cheat was and what the cheat was. So the count came in slow?

Let's take a look at another election. Yes, it was obvious on November 4, 2008  that if Obama amassed 193 electoral votes by 11 PM he was going to win the Presidency because Obama was seen as sure to win California, Hawaii, Oregon, and Washington with their 77 electoral votes.  At 8:59 ET Obama had amassed 102 electoral votes. Quick calls in several states (MI, MN, NY, RI, and WI) put Obama at 175. There were plenty of states that were close and not yet called, and some yet to even close their polling. 

At 9:23 PM, about everyone concluded that the Republicans had run out of votes in Ohio, and Obama was going to win Ohio. That put Obama at 185. It's over except for waiting for the votes to come in from the West Coast. Well, we know the rest. 

It took two days to count the votes to decide North Carolina, and fifteen days to count the vote in Missouri. Slow counting is possible. Quick calls indicate that the margin is large enough that only a fool would deny the final result. Slow counts indicate a tight margin. Votes counted late (in some states the absentee ballots had to be counted last, and those paradoxically included the first ballots cast) count as much as those cast on Election Day. 

States counted their votes in different orders. Biden started out with leads in Florida, Ohio, and Texas, all of which he lost. 

Yes, yes, yes... I know that you are disappointed with the result. Well guess how I felt in 2016? Elections don't all go our way, do they? Maybe the 74 million who voted for Trump were more convinced that Trump was the necessary choice for a "real America" as you describe it and that the 81 million who voted against him acted in treachery, malice, or delusion (if that is how you see it). That is not how we decide an election.

The Supreme Court refused to get involved. So, its impossible to prove either way until the Supreme Court gets involved and makes a ruling on whether the  use of courts to change state election laws in 2020 was legal or not. I suspect there will be a court  decision on that issue  by 2022. It's going to have to be done to keep the county together because the alternative is going to be a national split and an American  war being fought where most of them live. If I were them, I'd ask myself which side is the bulk of the military related to and which side has supported them and how many of them with be left to protect them from the mob and vote accordingly.

"No standing". One of the lawsuits was Texas against Pennsylvania, in which Texas pols claimed that the Pennsylvania count was wrong. The Supreme Court refused to hear the case because no evidence suggested that Texas had any right to challenge Pennsylvania's vote. Pennsylvania did nothing to disenfranchise Texas voters.  

Quote:Do you know how many Democratic/Biden votes were added due to all the illegal law changes? Do you know how to tell the difference between what would have been an illegal vote and a legal vote now that they've all been counted and declared legal votes?  So, I don't really care about the result at this point. The decision has already been made by the political class (the political establishments) and everyone directly associated with them in DC and it's already been determined as legal by all of them. The result has  been signed, sealed, delivered and declared official and there's nothing that can be done about it because it's a done deal.

 
No; I have no idea. Voter participation went up greatly for the 2018 midterm election; this should be a portent.  Except for Iowa, all states that gave a plurality of their Congressional votes to Democrats in contested races went for Biden in 2020. The Millennial Generation had been relatively light in voting before 2018; that is over. Millennial voters are about 20% more D than R, and they were the bulk of the new voters supplanting older voters (55+) dying off who on the whole were about 5% more R than D. About 1.6% of the electorate quits voting due either to death or debility, and that alone explains the shift in the popular vote. That was enough to swing Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. That was enough to derail the "Trump Train".  

Quote:We know every Democrat and every Democratic lifestyle and every Democratic life is some how related or directly attached to the Democratic party and  its existence one way or another. We know there are some RINO's who are now in the same boat with the Democratic party whether they like it or not at this point. Ain't like that on the Republican side, the  lives and lifestyles of the bulk of the Republican base  are all directly attached to the American Constitution and the existence of the American country/state. So, that's pretty much where we are at as far as the national divide that exists within the country today. It appears that Biden has embraced Woke culture and will govern as Woke instead of a traditional Democrat. I assume that he's already prepping for his early departure and getting things ready for Kamala to become our next President or the first female Woke President.

We Democrats have a wider variety of ways of life than you give us credit for. There is no particularly "Democratic" lifestyle, and many of us identify ourselves in different ways. We recognize the same Constitution and the same flag. We weren't the ones who stormed the Capitol. It's the same country whether one is in Union City, California; Union City, New Jersey; or Union City, Tennessee.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-22-2021, 12:30 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-22-2021, 04:49 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-21-2021, 08:27 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It is impossible to prove a non-existent fraud. There is less shadiness in the 2020 Presidential election than there was in 2000. Still we have ways in which to define who wins and does not in accordance with the laws that include procedures for administering the election and counting the votes. In all of the states that were close there have been opportunities for both Parties to clamp down on any possibility of electoral fraud through

• tampering with machines
  
• forged ballots introduced into electoral devices
  
• falsification of voting results
  
• ineligible votes (such as by the deceased)
  
• intimidation of voters
  
• people voting in multiple places
  

This time we had a possible cheat, and it was a non-human participant: COVID-19, a literal threat to anyone who appeared at the polls. COVID-19 is about as welcome at a polling place as is an armed militia that threatens voters with such a message as "VOTE HERE AND DIE". Law enforcement could clear out a militia with such a message, but it can't remove the SARS-2 virus.

Extended time for voting and absentee ballots without excuses can not drive COVID-19 away, but it can certainly keep people from deciding to not vote. If there is any perception that COVID-19 discriminates against any ethnic minority, then states have every right to protect that minority. If it is white people -- likewise.

There were law suits by people associated with the Trump campaign, and they fell flat.  Some states had recounts as mandated by law. Those worked against Trump. 

So you tell me where the cheat was and what the cheat was. So the count came in slow?

Let's take a look at another election. Yes, it was obvious on November 4, 2008  that if Obama amassed 193 electoral votes by 11 PM he was going to win the Presidency because Obama was seen as sure to win California, Hawaii, Oregon, and Washington with their 77 electoral votes.  At 8:59 ET Obama had amassed 102 electoral votes. Quick calls in several states (MI, MN, NY, RI, and WI) put Obama at 175. There were plenty of states that were close and not yet called, and some yet to even close their polling. 

At 9:23 PM, about everyone concluded that the Republicans had run out of votes in Ohio, and Obama was going to win Ohio. That put Obama at 185. It's over except for waiting for the votes to come in from the West Coast. Well, we know the rest. 

It took two days to count the votes to decide North Carolina, and fifteen days to count the vote in Missouri. Slow counting is possible. Quick calls indicate that the margin is large enough that only a fool would deny the final result. Slow counts indicate a tight margin. Votes counted late (in some states the absentee ballots had to be counted last, and those paradoxically included the first ballots cast) count as much as those cast on Election Day. 

States counted their votes in different orders. Biden started out with leads in Florida, Ohio, and Texas, all of which he lost. 

Yes, yes, yes... I know that you are disappointed with the result. Well guess how I felt in 2016? Elections don't all go our way, do they? Maybe the 74 million who voted for Trump were more convinced that Trump was the necessary choice for a "real America" as you describe it and that the 81 million who voted against him acted in treachery, malice, or delusion (if that is how you see it). That is not how we decide an election.

The Supreme Court refused to get involved. So, its impossible to prove either way until the Supreme Court gets involved and makes a ruling on whether the  use of courts to change state election laws in 2020 was legal or not. I suspect there will be a court  decision on that issue  by 2022. It's going to have to be done to keep the county together because the alternative is going to be a national split and an American  war being fought where most of them live. If I were them, I'd ask myself which side is the bulk of the military related to and which side has supported them and how many of them with be left to protect them from the mob and vote accordingly.

"No standing". One of the lawsuits was Texas against Pennsylvania, in which Texas pols claimed that the Pennsylvania count was wrong. The Supreme Court refused to hear the case because no evidence suggested that Texas had any right to challenge Pennsylvania's vote. Pennsylvania did nothing to disenfranchise Texas voters.  

Quote:Do you know how many Democratic/Biden votes were added due to all the illegal law changes? Do you know how to tell the difference between what would have been an illegal vote and a legal vote now that they've all been counted and declared legal votes?  So, I don't really care about the result at this point. The decision has already been made by the political class (the political establishments) and everyone directly associated with them in DC and it's already been determined as legal by all of them. The result has  been signed, sealed, delivered and declared official and there's nothing that can be done about it because it's a done deal.

 
No; I have no idea. Voter participation went up greatly for the 2018 midterm election; this should be a portent.  Except for Iowa, all states that gave a plurality of their Congressional votes to Democrats in contested races went for Biden in 2020. The Millennial Generation had been relatively light in voting before 2018; that is over. Millennial voters are about 20% more D than R, and they were the bulk of the new voters supplanting older voters (55+) dying off who on the whole were about 5% more R than D. About 1.6% of the electorate quits voting due either to death or debility, and that alone explains the shift in the popular vote. That was enough to swing Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. That was enough to derail the "Trump Train".  

Quote:We know every Democrat and every Democratic lifestyle and every Democratic life is some how related or directly attached to the Democratic party and  its existence one way or another. We know there are some RINO's who are now in the same boat with the Democratic party whether they like it or not at this point. Ain't like that on the Republican side, the  lives and lifestyles of the bulk of the Republican base  are all directly attached to the American Constitution and the existence of the American country/state. So, that's pretty much where we are at as far as the national divide that exists within the country today. It appears that Biden has embraced Woke culture and will govern as Woke instead of a traditional Democrat. I assume that he's already prepping for his early departure and getting things ready for Kamala to become our next President or the first female Woke President.

We Democrats have a wider variety of ways of life than you give us credit for. There is no particularly "Democratic" lifestyle, and many of us identify ourselves in different ways. We recognize the same Constitution and the same flag. We weren't the ones who stormed the Capitol. It's the same country whether one is in Union City, California; Union City, New Jersey; or Union City, Tennessee.

PB, if this trend continues, the D's aren't going to matter to the R's because the D's and R's will be living in separate countries. The D's don't recognize the Constitution or the rule of law or respect/represent the flag either. A portion of them do but I'd say that most D's don't these days. I'd say that you're a borderline American D at best these days. In reality, you are a member of a group of Democrats and that's it. Is America the same country as it was at the turn of the last century? Is America still a developing nation with a shorter history or is America a developed nation with a longer history today? How many Americans care if George Washington owned slaves? How many Democrats either want or believe that America ought to get rid of George Washington because he owned slaves? You and every other Democrat better wake up and start thinking like Americans because you're all being judged by millions of Americans today. The GOP has pretty much been sidelined and the D's are pretty much facing a very large American population right now.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-22-2021, 04:23 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-21-2021, 07:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-21-2021, 02:07 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-20-2021, 01:14 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 12:20 PM)David Horn Wrote: Massive voter fraud can't be easily hidden, so yes, one month was more than enough time to find evidence -- any evidence -- yet none was found.

It can be hidden when elections laws are changed illegally and left as is for the most part and the voter turn out is much higher on both sides than normal across the entire country. Okay. You won by default because the numbers weren't heavily skewed. You elected a President who is mentally incompetent and you have a VP who isn't there because she's great or she's popular or she was really good at governing a state or managing anything important (including her own Presidential campaign) . So, what should happen to you and the others here who didn't use their brains, didn't listen, didn't care and those who are dumb enough or desperate enough or greedy enough or deviant enough to go along with electing Biden.

So changing laws, or their interpretation at least, is illegal when your side loses, but perfectly fine when you win. Got it!  And of course, challenges to state lawsfrom our of state are great under those same rules. Apparently the courts, including courts overseen by RW judges, don't agree.

C-Xer Wrote:Here's the deal, you are about to face the wrath of the American people and about to experience a repeat of American history and the Democrats are probably (maybe there's enough worth while Democrats left who are willing to fall on their swords to prevent the inevitable collision between the Left and the American right) on the verge of being removed by force or left to be over run by an angry hoard of barbarians that it created as the rest of America watches. Either way, your time (the time of the Progressive  Democrats) is coming to an end. In short, you have met your match. Eric has met his match and PB and Bob will prove to be worthless non factors when the all the violence and disruption starts.

You seem to love threatening the wrath of the "American people", yet your side lost.  So who are the 81 Million if not Americans?

As an aside: only 1%+/- of the MAGA voters are in the game.  90+% of those loudmouths are all talk.  Of the remaining ~10%, most are incompetent at revolutionary action, so you have maybe 2% of 1% who will act.  That's about the number that attacked Congress, and they sucked at it.

Aren't you all talk? Aren't the bulk of you all talk? I talk some but not nearly as much as all of you guys talk here. I spend more time doing than sitting on my ass talking dude. I also spend more of my time talking to people face to face and settling disputes face to face or on a phone than I spend writing stuff with people like you, writing responses, writing predictions and trying to show and explain the difference between the way American see things and the Democrats see things to you and others here.

Our side barely lost a heavily rigged election that had  illegal election law changes along with the assistance of tech giants, cable news giants, national channel giants who were  hammering us, calling us this and that, banning us and shutting us up, partisan Democrats controlling national debates, partisan Democrats as moderators directly participating in debates along with Biden, withholding information for several months and billions being spent by oligarch's, Chinese nationalists, Russian nationalists, European nationalists and Uber-elites supporting all sorts of anarchist groups doing as they please for several months. So, what do you think, should we continue to support and continue being nice  or begin to the pull the plug and become more divisive and disruptive and threatening than before and cause  the Democratic system fail  and watch as millions of Democratic beliefs and dreams are shattered. Dude, we are still standing and we are all still united under the America first banner and there are no limitations on we can do as a group either.

I was  working on a boiler in the home of a leftist today. I had to listen to a bunch of Democrats talking to themselves on NPR for a couple of hours today. I'd say the Democrats are pretty high on themselves and out of touch with reality as far as the rest of the country goes and where the rest of the country is at right now. It's to bad they don't have anyone other than themselves to listen to or ask questions, listen to or learn from these days other themselves and those who agree with them. So, who is paying for NPR these day? Is the Democratic party paying for it or is America paying still paying for it? Who is paying for PBS? The Democrats or America?

BTW, the percent who sucked succeeded in scaring the shit out of bunch of careless Democratic politicians with big mouths but little substance and caused/forced them to overact and go into coccoon mode and revealed their true nature and true color as well. I figure that was all that was needed/intended for now. I didn't hear anything about any violence that took place outside of Washington DC on inauguration day other than the constant violence occurring in Portland and Seattle that's been going on several months.

Biden talks a lot about unity these days. Maybe he can convince McConnell to do the right thing, he thinks. Today McConnell tells him he made a couple of wrong decisions. He chose stopping the pipeline and rejoining the Paris Agreement as his wrong decisions out of the 17 he made; the very two things which I think are the most important decisions Biden made. McConnell implied these decisions put the new bipartisan unity in peril. And I think, we've got to stop McConnell. Where is the unity, then? How do we stop guys like you Classic Xer and guys like Mitch who want to pollute the world and boil it over so humans can no longer support civilization here? Speaking of boilers? How do we settle this? How do we get you guys out of power? How do we take your jobs away, dependent as you are on this effort to destroy our world?

How many times have we seen something done or passed in a moment that is determined to be unconstitutional later on? OK. We are basically in the in between period right now. The Supreme court is going to have to rule on it or run the risk of doing nothing about it and watching as history repeats itself again on a much larger scale. What's a government like that worth? Is it worth 5 trillion a year? Maybe, if you're a worthless Democrat or a big government Democrat or a Woke Democrat or a socialist Democrat or a Wall Street Democrat? How do we settle this? We don't settle this, we leave this to play out and pull the plug and move on with most of the country. I think its pretty clear that we aren't coming out of this in one piece.

Yep. Biden talks a lot but doesn't appear to be thinking much and it's already beginning to show and his fitness is already being questioned. Biden ran on rejoining the Paris Agreement so that shouldn't be a surprise. He also mentioned having an interest in depleting oil production and phasing out oil production altogether during one of the debates which could have been viewed as a ploy that turned out to be true and more serious that surprised McConnell. It shouldn't have, Trump got it out of him and nailed him on it. McConnell made the mistake of relying on laurels that no longer exist in politics today. The same mistake McCain made with Obama in 08' as well. The same mistake the GOP made in 2016 and 2020 as well. Like I've mentioned before, the American right are on to you and the Democrats and we won't be making the same mistakes as them. I see that we are going to be dealing with a Woke administration lead by a token queen backed up by another token queen. Well, I'm pretty sure American cancel culture has the free to do whatever it takes to annihilate them (a political cult). It may be a bit scary, but that is what the American right has the power to do and that's the reason why the American Right is here and why it's so large these days.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-21-2021, 05:45 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It's state governments that are dispensing the vaccine as allocated to the states. The States are not producing the vaccine. Essential workers and vulnerable people get it first. 

I notice your hatred toward people who are the wrong sort of American to you. The media have been good so far about not making deaths from COVID-19 an issue of ethnicity or political orientation. Even so, the numbers are horrible, and those so far indict the former President whose name need not be mentioned. .

Ain't much a person can do about COVID deaths when there wasn't a vaccine available and completely locking down people and shutting down everything was impossible/unthinkable. I wish Biden was in office at the time to prove it to you but he wasn't at the time. I could be like you and go ape shit over every death that occurs this year and every flare up or new strain that shows up or manages to sneak in that results in deaths while Biden/Harris are in office now that the world knows that the do nothing Democrats and immigrant (legal or not) friendly Democrats are back in charge. Personally speaking, I knew more people who died of heart failure and cancer than I know who died of COVID and I know a lot of people who have had COVID and people who were classified as high risk who had it too. I guess, I must be affiliated and directly associated with stronger and more healthier people than you and others here. My wife knew a couple but they were constantly at risk of dying and struggling to live and suffering from very serious problems.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-21-2021, 12:33 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-20-2021, 06:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You keep talking about the collapse of conservative values that I refer to as traditional American values that are directly related to you and much of the Democratic population that exists today. The Democratic party has now been placed in charge of its own fate and the fate of a portion of the country ( the people directly related to it and the people reliant on it and those who have greatly benefited from being related) that it currently controls.

The values I see as ready to collapse include racism, sexism, elitism, anti science, and the use of lies to create political fantasies.

There is much positive that is associated with the cavalier, rural, conservative part of America.  The above factors are not among them.

Now you have not loudly advocated any of them.  You may have been fooled by some of the lies.  You have have bought into the conservative fantasies.  But you don't seem to spend a lot of time ranting in favor of the questionable traits of the Republican Party.

I see a struggle about to commence for what is left of the Republican Party.  A few days ago, I believe Trump had the advantage over the Establishment and traditional conservatives.  Now, with the lack of people showing up for Trump's goodbye at Andrews, I am not so sure.  January 6th's big crowds, Trump flags and fanatic loyalty to Trump was totally missing.  The expected insurgencies didn't materialize.  Biden was able to set the tone.

Now if conservatives could let go of Trump, if the rejection of the establishment and the elites that was featured in the Tea Party days could return, if the Lincoln Project and similar disgruntled conservatives could bring together the remnants of the party...

We'll have to see.

Racism isn't going to collapse as long as the Democrats continue to support it and continue to promote it and continue exploit it like I've been telling you. The Democrats have a problem with racist minded blacks and a problem with black demagogues and black lawyers associated with them exploiting racist beliefs that insight riots and other criminal activity. And a problem with people like you and others here jump on band wagons and associate everything bad that happens related to blacks with racism. Your playing with fire dude. The Democrats also have a problem with elitism. What's going on with Face Book and Twitter and a group of corporations and the problem with Democratic leadership and its college educated base and it's inability to relate or appeal to normal folks proves it. Look at you, you're WEIRD and act like being WEIRD some how grants a higher status over me because I'm normal. I could out wit you at every turn, match you tit for tat argument wise and even cut you off and make you look like a complete moron or jerk but as long as you view yourself being a member of the WEIRD group then you'll always remain above everyone else.

[pbrower2a]

Wear masks. Avoid crowds. Do social distancing. Wash hands for twenty seconds.

Think of how high the death toll would be if more people hadn't done the right things. President Biden is trying to do on a national scale what President Trump didn't do in a timely manner.  That itself would have stopped the plague by now, vaccine or not.

It may be paradoxical, but I refuse to go along with the attitude that one of the vilest of all people in history expressed. One of the nastiest assessments by anyone not wearing a swastika armband was this:




One death is a tragedy. A million is a statistic. Josef Stalin. 

....I have sought to humanize the people who die, which is tough to do when one does not see people die of COVID-19. Start with the obvious. I have compared  death tolls to various disasters, to wars, and to the sizes of cities. As one gets into the zone of the cities fortieth to fiftieth in the population of the United States the cities spread out in frequency. If I haven't mentioned a new comparison of cities it is because the next city on the list is about 20,000 larger than the last one that I mentioned. 

COVID-19 is a lonely way of death when it kills. It is usually tucked away in a medical ward because it is so contagious. I've been around people dying of congestive heart failure, lupus, complications of diabetes, cirrhosis, Parkinsonism, and of course cancer. None of those are contagious. AIDS is contagious, but it is contagious largely from certain forms of contact. If you want to know how I want to go -- basically, without a clue that I am about to die. OK, maybe enough time in which to kiss up to the Almighty.

Donald Trump may not quite be a murderer, but he is certainly culpable in negligent homicide on a grand scale. For that he is evil. For his sake, may he have the same opportunity as the condemned have on Death Row to atone for his monstrous sins before facing Divine Judgment. I hope that he finds Jesus if that is what it takes to keep him from going to Hell. He's not going to find anything else. Forget the fire and brimstone... the worst aspect of Hell is the company... like Nazis and Stalinists.

[beechnut79]

(01-22-2021, 08:23 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Wear masks. Avoid crowds. Do social distancing. Wash hands for twenty seconds.

Think of how high the death toll would be if more people hadn't done the right things. President Biden is trying to do on a national scale what President Trump didn't do in a timely manner.  That itself would have stopped the plague by now, vaccine or not.

It may be paradoxical, but I refuse to go along with the attitude that one of the vilest of all people in history expressed. One of the nastiest assessments by anyone not wearing a swastika armband was this:




One death is a tragedy. A million is a statistic. Josef Stalin. 

....I have sought to humanize the people who die, which is tough to do when one does not see people die of COVID-19. Start with the obvious. I have compared  death tolls to various disasters, to wars, and to the sizes of cities. As one gets into the zone of the cities fortieth to fiftieth in the population of the United States the cities spread out in frequency. If I haven't mentioned a new comparison of cities it is because the next city on the list is about 20,000 larger than the last one that I mentioned. 

COVID-19 is a lonely way of death when it kills. It is usually tucked away in a medical ward because it is so contagious. I've been around people dying of congestive heart failure, lupus, complications of diabetes, cirrhosis, Parkinsonism, and of course cancer. None of those are contagious. AIDS is contagious, but it is contagious largely from certain forms of contact. If you want to know how I want to go -- basically, without a clue that I am about to die. OK, maybe enough time in which to kiss up to the Almighty.

Donald Trump may not quite be a murderer, but he is certainly culpable in negligent homicide on a grand scale. For that he is evil. For his sake, may he have the same opportunity as the condemned have on Death Row to atone for his monstrous sins before facing Divine Judgment. I hope that he finds Jesus if that is what it takes to keep him from going to Hell. He's not going to find anything else. Forget the fire and brimstone... the worst aspect of Hell is the company... like Nazis and Stalinists.

Just noticed that spam seems to be reappearing on a couple of the sub-forums.

[pbrower2a]

(01-22-2021, 08:54 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: Just noticed that spam seems to be reappearing on a couple of the sub-forums.

Yup. False documents again. Considering the trouble that false documents can get people into... someone has some repenting to do after getting banned.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-22-2021, 08:23 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Wear masks. Avoid crowds. Do social distancing. Wash hands for twenty seconds.

Think of how high the death toll would be if more people hadn't done the right things. President Biden is trying to do on a national scale what President Trump didn't do in a timely manner.  That itself would have stopped the plague by now, vaccine or not.

It may be paradoxical, but I refuse to go along with the attitude that one of the vilest of all people in history expressed. One of the nastiest assessments by anyone not wearing a swastika armband was this:




One death is a tragedy. A million is a statistic. Josef Stalin. 

....I have sought to humanize the people who die, which is tough to do when one does not see people die of COVID-19. Start with the obvious. I have compared  death tolls to various disasters, to wars, and to the sizes of cities. As one gets into the zone of the cities fortieth to fiftieth in the population of the United States the cities spread out in frequency. If I haven't mentioned a new comparison of cities it is because the next city on the list is about 20,000 larger than the last one that I mentioned. 

COVID-19 is a lonely way of death when it kills. It is usually tucked away in a medical ward because it is so contagious. I've been around people dying of congestive heart failure, lupus, complications of diabetes, cirrhosis, Parkinsonism, and of course cancer. None of those are contagious. AIDS is contagious, but it is contagious largely from certain forms of contact. If you want to know how I want to go -- basically, without a clue that I am about to die. OK, maybe enough time in which to kiss up to the Almighty.

Donald Trump may not quite be a murderer, but he is certainly culpable in negligent homicide on a grand scale. For that he is evil. For his sake, may he have the same opportunity as the condemned have on Death Row to atone for his monstrous sins before facing Divine Judgment. I hope that he finds Jesus if that is what it takes to keep him from going to Hell. He's not going to find anything else. Forget the fire and brimstone... the worst aspect of Hell is the company... like Nazis and Stalinists.

I think its pretty clear that wearing masks, avoiding crowds, social distancing and washing hands didn't prevent the death of over 400,000 Americans. The Chinese Regime is culpable of negligent homicide on a grand scale. I get the impression that you forget who is ultimately responsible for the COVID 19 pandemic. Are you working for China or passing on their propaganda or what? I know that the Democrats would rather suck up and kiss their ass and let bygones be bygones and get back to business as usual but that's going to be hard to do as we continue to take on losses even with the Democratic version of Moses in power.

[pbrower2a]

(01-22-2021, 11:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-22-2021, 08:23 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Wear masks. Avoid crowds. Do social distancing. Wash hands for twenty seconds.

Think of how high the death toll would be if more people hadn't done the right things. President Biden is trying to do on a national scale what President Trump didn't do in a timely manner.  That itself would have stopped the plague by now, vaccine or not.

It may be paradoxical, but I refuse to go along with the attitude that one of the vilest of all people in history expressed. One of the nastiest assessments by anyone not wearing a swastika armband was this


One death is a tragedy. A million is a statistic. -- Josef Stalin. 

....I have sought to humanize the people who die, which is tough to do when one does not see people die of COVID-19. Start with the obvious. I have compared  death tolls to various disasters, to wars, and to the sizes of cities. As one gets into the zone of the cities fortieth to fiftieth in the population of the United States the cities spread out in frequency. If I haven't mentioned a new comparison of cities it is because the next city on the list is about 20,000 larger than the last one that I mentioned. 

COVID-19 is a lonely way of death when it kills. It is usually tucked away in a medical ward because it is so contagious. I've been around people dying of congestive heart failure, lupus, complications of diabetes, cirrhosis, Parkinsonism, and of course cancer. None of those are contagious. AIDS is contagious, but it is contagious largely from certain forms of contact. If you want to know how I want to go -- basically, without a clue that I am about to die. OK, maybe enough time in which to kiss up to the Almighty.

Donald Trump may not quite be a murderer, but he is certainly culpable in negligent homicide on a grand scale. For that he is evil. For his sake, may he have the same opportunity as the condemned have on Death Row to atone for his monstrous sins before facing Divine Judgment. I hope that he finds Jesus if that is what it takes to keep him from going to Hell. He's not going to find anything else. Forget the fire and brimstone... the worst aspect of Hell is the company... like Nazis and Stalinists.

I think its pretty clear that wearing masks, avoiding crowds, social distancing and washing hands didn't prevent the death of over 400,000 Americans. The Chinese Regime is culpable of negligent homicide on a grand scale. I get the impression that you forget who is ultimately responsible for the COVID 19 pandemic. Are you working for China or passing on their propaganda or what? I know that the Democrats would rather suck up and kiss their ass and let bygones be bygones and get back to business as usual but that's going to be hard to do as we continue to take on losses even with the Democratic version of Moses in power.

I may be alive because I wore a mask, avoided crowds, did social distancing, and washed my hands for twenty seconds or more after any pretext. I know well the source of the SAES-2 virus that inflicts COVID-19... and I am going to fault China for weak regulation of its 'wet markets'. China is still relatively new to free markets, and some free markets are inappropriate. Someone butchered a bat, and bats are among the worst animal vectors for infection in existence. (The blue-ring octopus kills with a venom that is really a powerful bacterium; a Komodo dragon has a witch's brew of infectious diseases in its bite with the bite leading to sepsis; bites by monkeys and great apes are dangerous because.. well, we are great apes and are vulnerable to their germs as we aren't to those of cats and dogs). I can't imagine eating dog or cat meat, both of which are (or have been) available on the open market in China, so I would avoid any Chinese 'wet market'. 

China? Negligent homicide on a large scale? With the Uighurs and Tibetans it is murder. The real killer in China in decades since the Communist takeover (and really before) is famine. That seems to be over.  China can clamp down on destructive behavior more harshly and effectively than the USA can... well, it is no democracy, and it is willing to use the death penalty against economic crimes. OK, I endorse the death penalty for human trafficking, which is a modern-day slave trade. 

The problem is not that America has democracy and China doesn't. The United States can clamp down on a clear and present danger quickly and effectively, as it did after 9/11. This said, George W. Bush may not have been the wisest President that we ever had, but he was at least amenable to people with knowledge far better and more reliable than his own. Donald Trump has failed catastrophically as a leader, encouraging people to act upon their impulses when such overpower wise choices.

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-22-2021, 11:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think its pretty clear that wearing masks, avoiding crowds, social distancing and washing hands didn't prevent the death of over 400,000 Americans.

It is pretty clear that not wearing masks, avoiding crowds, social distancing and washing hands caused many of those deaths.

[pbrower2a]

(01-23-2021, 04:42 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-22-2021, 11:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think its pretty clear that wearing masks, avoiding crowds, social distancing and washing hands didn't prevent the death of over 400,000 Americans.

It is pretty clear that not wearing masks, avoiding crowds, social distancing and washing hands caused many of those deaths.

It is not as easy as it sounds. The world under a pandemic is scary, boring, frustrating, and lonely. Some of us have plenty of habits to break, and plenty of things that we do with little thought to assess for their safety. COVID-19 is as dangerous as warfare, having a similar death toll -- at least by American standards. This time, as in war, the people putting their lives on the line are not largely young men who would otherwise be doing raw labor but instead have a uniform and a gun and orders to keep firing at the Enemy until relieved of duty or either killed or wounded. 

Soldiers at war are under rigid discipline, and finding a way in which to evade that is the severe crime of desertion that has often been cause for execution. One keeps fighting and facing the Enemy gunfire because one more fears the commanding officer, soldiers in the rear ordered to shoot anyone retreating, or a court martial and some degrading treatment that may result in a horrible way to die. 

Like war, COVID-19 is unnatural. As with soldiers, most of us will return to more normal lives after the menace is gone... but not until then. Vaccines were rushed, so they may not be 100% effective. 90% effectiveness will be enough to create an effective "herd immunity". As for going back to normal there will be places to go, things to do, and people to visit. 

COVID-19 will be one of the arch-villains in American history, and Donald Trump will be seen almost as America's quisling for having practically collaborated with an enemy that has killed 400,000 people in America and counting.

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-23-2021, 11:21 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Like war, COVID-19 is unnatural.

Nitpick.  War has been part of human interaction throughout the ages.  It is, unfortunately, part of our natural behavior.  It was cost effective, at least for the winners, though the late Industrial Age.  Even then we are only slowly learning to avoid it.

I would add that pandemics are natural too.  They have happened throughout history.

The new normal of the Information Age should not make us forget what came before.  Abolishing war and plagues is a work in progress.

But I agree with most of the post.

[pbrower2a]

The COVID-19 pandemic is 'unnatural' in that such a pandemic supposedly does not fester in an advanced industrial society with a sophisticated political system -- until it does. AIDS at the least was associated (after some other means of infection) with abnormal behavior such as IV drug use or extreme excess of sexuality.

Because of nukes, war has become less attractive even in countries with large military establishments. One of the supreme ironies is that the leaders who dislike war (Lincoln, FDR, Churchill, George H W Bush) conduct it most effectively. The fire-breathing militarists (Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Nasser, Saddam Hussein) bungle it in their arrogant claims of their mastery of history. One of the old causes of war in which some king got angry with another king over some insult. The despots are now mostly dictators and not kings. If it takes gunboat diplomacy to keep the peace (some cranky dictator says. "maybe I shouldn't let drug dealers use my country as a way station, or maybe it's a bad idea to persecute people for their ethnicity or religion"... fine. Maybe that prevents war... and drug trafficking or persecutions.

[David Horn]

Edited for clarity (see red text)

(01-23-2021, 04:42 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-22-2021, 11:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think its pretty clear that wearing masks, avoiding crowds, social distancing and washing hands didn't prevent the death of over 400,000 Americans.

It is pretty clear that not wearing masks, not avoiding crowds, not social distancing and not washing hands caused many of those deaths.