01-04-2017, 06:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2017, 06:34 PM by Eric the Green.)
(01-04-2017, 05:57 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(01-03-2017, 07:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The blue folk are trying to "impose" awareness of reality and hope for the future. The red folk insist on their illusions.
The belief that one's own side has reality and a solid basis to move towards a healthy future, while the other side has illusions, is not unique to either faction. Mind you, we need more fact checkers. I don't know if Trump doesn't care whether his lies are obvious lies, or whether his grip on reality is lost.
(01-03-2017, 07:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: They don't like having them taken away. And the greatest illusion of all, though one among many, is that they need a gun, Bob. That one's for you
Humans divide into groups. If they aren't careful, they can come to disrespect the other group to the point that the other guy's right to life and property become lost. One gets war and strife. See Syria. See Chicago. Again, I allow myself to daydream occasional of a Roddenberry Federation style benign culture where strife has become obsolete. We aren't seeing it in my life time. Thus, we need defense, and for many this means self defense.
What will it take to get rid of the strife? One direction to push is freedom from want. There has to be enough resources for all and a culture that makes sure that all get a least the basics. If there is not enough to go around, humans tend to form groups that will seize enough for their own to have enough.
The other culture can't be demonized. It should be perceived as worthy of respect rather than worthy of scorn and violence. The world can't be divided between Us and Them with strong efforts to portray Them as insane, evil, stupid, or etc...
The above two paragraphs are among the reasons I lean progressive. I favor an inclusive economy, safety nets, and respect for minorities.
And I distrust demonization and hate, even by fellow progressives... perhaps especially by people who portray themselves as progressive. They are poisoning the message.
In rural areas, the response time for government provided security is often perceived of as too slow, in part due to distance. People perceive the ideal necessary practical defense differently as the situation is different. The certainties you are locked in on don't apply everywhere. This is before one considers the weight of culture and tradition. People will not move off of basic values regarding a life and death survival situation, with these values handed down for generations, unless the values have been observed to have clearly failed. They have not been observed to have clearly failed.
As you say, reprising our views is pretty futile if it is measured by the likelihood of either of us changing the other's mind. However, not everyone who disagrees with you is evil, insane or stupid. They have a culture they perceive of has having worked for a long time and is still working. If you try to come in from the outside and make major changes to said culture for no good valid reason its members can perceive, [understatement] there will be resistance. [/understatement]
It's like Tom Lehrer said,
"I'm sure you'd agree we ought to love one another, and I know there are people in the world who do not love their fellow human beings, and I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT!" -- Tom Lehrer, 1965
It's hard to observe brotherhood. But labelling people as bad in one way or another is not the most polite or effective form of communication.
"National Make Fun of the Handicapped Week" (I think we can nominate a new chairman for THAT cause lol)
It's more than a little amusing however that you throw in "no good valid reason." There's every good reason that the southern and rural American culture needs to make "major changes" to their culture they "perceive is working for them," to the extent that it indeed is divisive and violent (and loves the modern efficient tools of violence as a cult obsession), and is imposing its culture upon the rest of us-- which it is doing with the strong help of its Republican representatives in our government. And to the peril and disadvantage of all of us, including themselves.
It will take realization on their own part to change this "culture" in those ways. Meanwhile, there's a contest, called our current 4T, and in this 4T, it is necessary to defeat them politically. We are losing, currently. What that means, first of all, is not to change them so much, but to mobilize the opposing culture, which we now call blue. I do believe our republic and world hang in the balance of that mobilization, and that victory, in this 4T Crisis. That IS the 4T Crisis, in fact! So, "no valid reason" is about as far from reality as it can be. But it's true, how much of the opposing culture itself can be changed, may not amount to much. It will have to be forced to go along however, politically, in the union as a whole at least, if we are to survive. Or, perhaps, to separate off again, so that the rest of us CAN do some of what needs to be done.
Of course, as I should have made clear by now, this does not include a government program to forcibly take away all guns from everyone. There is a suitable compromise. The problem with that is, one side is willing to compromise; the other side isn't. So to get our compromise, and thus save some lives, it will be necessary for the blue side to win.