Political compass for the21st century

[Eric the Green]

(06-21-2021, 04:38 AM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 01:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I agree. Your diagram has two social conservative sectors instead of one, and it's like two levels one on top of the other, really. Without those two levels, you can't put Trump where he belongs, which would be yellow but close to the brown sector.

You made it clear you like Nolan's chart more than mine, so why do you comment on this one?

Why not? The other chart is better. I'm glad you have a chart though. I like charts and the goal of seeing the larger picture of things.

Quote:I have made it clear many times that pure theocracy is against nationalism, wanting to make the world one kingdom of God. See Wahhabism or medieval Catholicism. And pure nationalism is against theocracy, e.g. Hitler did not think much of the Vatican, and many SS officers despised the Bible as a Jewish book. In the Arab world nationalists like Saddam are typically quite secular according to the region's standard. At this point it is clear you decided that it doesn't matter for you.

It is clear that Trump is a cusp between yellow and brown on your diagram. The only way you can make your chart work is to make it three-dimensional in the area of nationalism and theocracy.

But yes, I don't think that matters. The larger issue is social conservatism, and theocracy and nationalism are just two ways in which one social group can claim the right to rule over others. But fascism in many places embraces both, as in Italy and Spain. Hitler just created another version of theocracy by championing his pagan religious roots instead of the Bible and the Vatican. And if Nazis called the Bible Jewish, then it shows Nazis are theocratic bigots who hate those of other religions like Jews. Indeed, since the main tenet of Nazism is anti-semitism, and their main enemy was the Jews, that shows that Hitler and Nazism is a religious doctrine. They were fighting over religion, and the Nazis wanted to impose their Aryan religion on others. All nationalists and all theocrats are alike in wanting to set up one world ruled by their own group.

Your world view probably influences your larger picture and your diagram. You being a modernist are going to take particular interest in theocracy, because you are basically anti-religion and see it as feudal, whereas nationalism is modern and nations were originally vehicles for the propagation of modernism. You also put a lot more moralism and cultural values in your diagram compared to the Nolan or political compass, which is more strictly political.

My view of spiral dynamics (planetary dynamics) takes account of the historical difference. Are you familiar with Spiral Dynamics? Interestingly they also use Blue to designate their "traditional authoritarian meme" which is basically religious and theocratic. For the capitalist democracy orientation they use Orange instead of yellow for their "competitive" meme. In planetary dynamics I use Brown for secular, monarchical statism, which is similar to your use of brown. Spiral Dynamics merges together the socialists and the greens under the color Green, which is similar to your red and purple sectors. They use yellow for the most recent meme, integral, which is also similar to your purple inclusivist sector. More on these ideas here: http://philosopherswheel.com/planetarydynamics.html

I agree Saddam is different from the Wahhabis, the IS, Iran, etc. in that he was using the state for modern purposes like economic development and women's rights. Religion was less important for him and his type. He was a statist. As I see the diagram, statists are not necessarily social conservatives. They are in between the socialist and social conservative areas somewhere, opposite to libertarians. But you are welcome to develop your own view which distinguishes between nationalism and theocracy which makes the point of the difference.

Quote:Trumpism makes sense on some other level, though. They just view selfishness as a virtue, both on personal (Yellow) and collective (Brown) level. This is however completely alien to Blue. I cannot imagine Osama bin Laden championing for a "virtue of selfishness".

That shows you have it right on Trumpism, as I said. It makes sense to put him in the yellow sector, but he should be near your blue border since you can't put him near your brown border. And Trump's biggest supporters are Evangelicals, and he appoints them to the Supreme Court.

Quote:In a Marxist view, Blue is feudal, Brown and Yellow are both capitalist, Purple is probably also capitalist, and Red is of course the path to glorious communist future.

That depends. All Marxists and all socialists are not so fanatic and doctrinaire. The totalitarian and authoritarian reds may be, though.