11-02-2019, 12:25 AM
(10-31-2019, 08:59 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:(10-27-2019, 10:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: But on all surveys, I am found on the Left, and so are all Greens, and I am of course a Green, and am on the Left, not the Right, so it doesn't seem to fit your system. All counter-culturalists and inclusivists are green.
Sustainability is an absolute requirement if we are to survive. It's what the word means. It means survival into the future, not just today.
You obfuscate a lot by erasing the boundary between reasonable and mystical or fanatical aspects of environmentalism. The former are just common sense, the latter are theocracy. Or maybe Gaiacracy, if my inner wordsmith is allowed to have a little fun.
Any cause or interest can be taken to fanatical extremes. I guess that we might not agree where the "boundary" is. And of course I think "mystical" is not only just fine, it's the cat's meow
Quote:Quote:We will indeed all starve unless ecology and economy become one and the same, because the Earth, our Divine Mother, is certainly our source of life and prosperity.
"We will indeed all starve unless theology and economy become one and the same, because Jesus, our Divine Father, is certainly our source of life and prosperity." Doesn't sound like something Jerry Falwell could say? Now you probably start seeing why I see parallels between theocrats and radical greens.
I would not say I have crossed your boundary.
Quote:Quote:the higher the level of religious commitment (as measured by self-reports of religion's personal importance, frequency of religious service attendance, and frequency of prayer), the lower the level of environmental concern.....
It confirms my reasoning. Some fear the Last Judgement and the wrath of Jesus, others fear global environmental apocalypse and the wrath of Gaia. Both stem from similar emotional impulses.
Maybe you missed the point of my quotes? It's the anti-environmentalists who are the religious fanatics, according to the facts.
Quote:Quote:The peace process has failed because of Israel.
The French and the Brits have pulled out of Africa in the 1960s. Did the nationalist regimes there become peaceful democrats? I'm quite sure Fatah and Hamas would remain thuggish autocrats without Israel.
The regimes in Africa of today were not organized to defeat the French and British. Fatah and Hamas were organized to defeat Israel. And these are not the same people. Unwarranted conclusion. Israel cannot blame Hamas for the horrible way it treats the people of Gaza, or the extreme advantage it has over them. Today, some of the regimes of Africa are better. So are the Palestinians of the West Bank, who have done their best to try to get along and create peace, while Israel continues to steal their land and confine them.
Quote:Democracy in America is also under threat, not surprising during a 4T. I believe both American and Israeli democratic culture is strong enough to withhold it.
We can hope
Quote:I see there is racism in Israel, but the racism in Arab countries is much worse. Remember most Jews living in Arab countries were also expelled. If Jewish racism is flu, then Arab racism is cholera. We should get rid of cholera first, then we'll debate how to get rid of flu.Only after the creation of Israel, which they abhorred. Before that, those two religions got along better than Christians ever had with anyone else.
Quote:I'm not preaching whataboutism, every Israeli Jew should re-examine their attitude to minorities and stop looking down on non-violent minority members.
Japan also experienced a devastating defeat in the 1940s, a nuclear disaster. They got over it and are now one of world's most modernized societies. Cannot the Arabs got over the creation of Israel and focused on modernizing themselves? How long should the struggle go on before they admit defeat? Will it be still going on in 2048? 2148?
Probably, because Israel stubbornly believes it has a right to all Palestinian land, and holds back the Arabs in that land with its oppression and theft. The circumstances are different. After conquering Japan, after Japan attacked it, the USA remodeled it, and then soon left. Israel was not attacked by Palestine (it was vice versa; the Jews came and took over THEIR land and expelled them from it), Israel never left Palestine, and Israel has not remodeled Palestine but just subdued it. Israel today believes it has the right to mistreat any people it pleases, because of how bad Jews were treated in the past. Japan didn't have that attitude after 1945.
Quote:Quote:There are many Arab states. You can't demand that the Arabs be all part of one state.
Why should people in the 21st century identify by labels such as Jew, Arab, British, Irish, Polish etc. rather than being just global citizens? If we have to, why should we invent sub-ethnic identities like Palestinian instead of using broader, more inclusive terms like Arab?
I agree, but it's tough for most people even in the USA to realize this, or even people on this forum. It's harder when you are being oppressed by another nation that steals your land and blockades your coast and borders.
Quote:Quote:You have a 5 category system, and that's fine if that's your concept. I just don't think it can be a circle, and there's not much inter-relation that I can see between the various sectors or their placements in your diagram, and there's no clear left vs. right paradigm in it. Many folks don't think that polarity is valid anymore, and that's probably a valid point; but I still do. Survey results on the political compass still show a predominant preference along what is actually the left-right spectrum (lower left vs. upper right on the political compass)
Broadly, Yellow and Blue are Right, Purple and Red are Left and Brown can be both. Putin is a right-wing nationalist, but Saddam was a lefty. "Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party". A lot of 1960s nationalist movements were left-leaning, including the IRA and ETA.
But I also see parallels between the attitudes found on Left and the Right. Just like some Leftists excuse Arab thugs, Trumpers excuse Putin. Some Leftists think we should restrain ourselves in name of the environment just like some Christians want to refrain from conspicuous consumption because it offends Jesus.
Best of luck with your studies and categories. It's fun to find some order in apparent chaos.
I have a bit of trouble though with saying Yellow is Right and then putting it at the top