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(02-20-2017, 04:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You can't go by anything global research says. The Ukrainians rose up in Kiev and forced out their corrupt, Putin clone, because they wanted a Western orientation, not a NAZI one. Putin is just trying to suppress them and stir up trouble. But McCain, we know he's a neo-con, prone to militarist attitudes. Maybe he's a good foil to Trump, but mainly because Trump is just a fool and a Putin tool just like the one that the Ukrainians forced out.
OK, I guess it's OK to go back to a what was old is new again. Let's go back to 1962 and have Russia arm Cuba with nukes or let Cuba reassign Guantanamo to Russia. After all, if the US can meddle in Ukraine, then it's only fair that Russia be allowed to pal around with Cuba.
---Value Added 
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(02-20-2017, 04:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-20-2017, 02:34 PM)Marypoza Wrote: (02-20-2017, 02:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-20-2017, 12:30 PM)Marypoza Wrote: (02-18-2017, 10:59 PM)TnT Wrote: There are a lot of moving parts here. Given the equivocal nature of Trump's relationships with Putin and Russia, one can't help but wonder what might be on the menu for other eastern European countries in the face of the possibility of Trump thinking he can "make a deal" with Putin or whatever the hell is in Trump's head.
If, on the other hand, some serious posturing were done in the Ukraine, Putin might take pause in his re-taking/rebuilding the good old USSR.
Sure, it's risky. Everything is risky. So is allowing Putin to do whatever the hell he wants to do. And Trump may be the guy to allow that.
So, if you were President, what would be YOUR overall strategy in projecting, or not projecting, the U.S.'s perspective into the world at large?
-- l pretty much agree with Rags- we need to stay/butt out (whichever applies) of other countries affairs. I've always found it hypocritical that the Govt- this so-called bastion of democracy- props up dictators & thugs, occasionally even overthrowing a democratically elected govt (hello Chile, Honduras, to name 2 off the top of my head) & now this misadventure in the Ukraine. l generally consider it hyperbolic when folx compare your run of the mill garden variety thug to Hitler, but in the case of these Ukranians there might be something to it considering their daddies & grandaddies were probably working for the Real Thing back in the day. And McStain, et al, is propping up this scheisse. Pretty disgusting imho
The Ukrainians, like the Syrians, have thrown out a Russian-backed corrupt (though not as brutal) dictator, and now Putin continues to foment a pro-Russian revolt in Eastern Ukraine. He has gobbled up Crimea in violation of international law. Putin is an aggressive tyrant, and he can't be allowed to gobble up more territory without some blowback.
I guess under Trump he has some level of free reign to challenge the West. We'll see how far that goes. Right now I don't think the USA is supplying the Ukrainian government against the czarist rebels in the East, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure we should back them, or not, myself, with arms, as McCain wants. But Ukraine is not a NATO ally, so there's little likelihood that the USA would go to war to defend Ukraine, should Putin invade.
-- If l'm understanding this correctly, McStain is pimping these clowns:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraines-ne...ii/5373773
You can't go by anything global research says.
-- why not?
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(02-20-2017, 05:21 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-20-2017, 04:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You can't go by anything global research says. The Ukrainians rose up in Kiev and forced out their corrupt, Putin clone, because they wanted a Western orientation, not a NAZI one. Putin is just trying to suppress them and stir up trouble. But McCain, we know he's a neo-con, prone to militarist attitudes. Maybe he's a good foil to Trump, but mainly because Trump is just a fool and a Putin tool just like the one that the Ukrainians forced out.
OK, I guess it's OK to go back to a what was old is new again. Let's go back to 1962 and have Russia arm Cuba with nukes or let Cuba reassign Guantanamo to Russia. After all, if the US can meddle in Ukraine, then it's only fair that Russia be allowed to pal around with Cuba.
I guess that's up to Putin. And it's up to Trump if we meddle in Ukraine or not. Since Trump is Putin's tool, this latter looks unlikely.
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(02-20-2017, 06:20 PM)Marypoza Wrote: (02-20-2017, 04:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-20-2017, 02:34 PM)Marypoza Wrote: (02-20-2017, 02:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-20-2017, 12:30 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- l pretty much agree with Rags- we need to stay/butt out (whichever applies) of other countries affairs. I've always found it hypocritical that the Govt- this so-called bastion of democracy- props up dictators & thugs, occasionally even overthrowing a democratically elected govt (hello Chile, Honduras, to name 2 off the top of my head) & now this misadventure in the Ukraine. l generally consider it hyperbolic when folx compare your run of the mill garden variety thug to Hitler, but in the case of these Ukranians there might be something to it considering their daddies & grandaddies were probably working for the Real Thing back in the day. And McStain, et al, is propping up this scheisse. Pretty disgusting imho
The Ukrainians, like the Syrians, have thrown out a Russian-backed corrupt (though not as brutal) dictator, and now Putin continues to foment a pro-Russian revolt in Eastern Ukraine. He has gobbled up Crimea in violation of international law. Putin is an aggressive tyrant, and he can't be allowed to gobble up more territory without some blowback.
I guess under Trump he has some level of free reign to challenge the West. We'll see how far that goes. Right now I don't think the USA is supplying the Ukrainian government against the czarist rebels in the East, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure we should back them, or not, myself, with arms, as McCain wants. But Ukraine is not a NATO ally, so there's little likelihood that the USA would go to war to defend Ukraine, should Putin invade.
-- If l'm understanding this correctly, McStain is pimping these clowns:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraines-ne...ii/5373773
You can't go by anything global research says.
-- why not?
Because it's conspiracy theory and not fact-based. I have seen their site before. No need for me ever to visit it again. Total crap.
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(02-20-2017, 02:25 PM)Marypoza Wrote: (02-20-2017, 02:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-17-2017, 05:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If a grey champion can have no principles or conscience, I guess that would work. Someone who can't see an alligator more than once out of a dozen tries.
I meant John McCain.
-- do you mean he has no principles or conscience, or he can't see the gators?
That's exactly the same thing.
Quote:I think he's just your run of the mill douche myself
Pretty much. Maybe not as bad as most of the GOP. But that says very little.
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(02-21-2017, 12:16 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-20-2017, 06:20 PM)Marypoza Wrote: (02-20-2017, 04:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-20-2017, 02:34 PM)Marypoza Wrote: (02-20-2017, 02:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Ukrainians, like the Syrians, have thrown out a Russian-backed corrupt (though not as brutal) dictator, and now Putin continues to foment a pro-Russian revolt in Eastern Ukraine. He has gobbled up Crimea in violation of international law. Putin is an aggressive tyrant, and he can't be allowed to gobble up more territory without some blowback.
I guess under Trump he has some level of free reign to challenge the West. We'll see how far that goes. Right now I don't think the USA is supplying the Ukrainian government against the czarist rebels in the East, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure we should back them, or not, myself, with arms, as McCain wants. But Ukraine is not a NATO ally, so there's little likelihood that the USA would go to war to defend Ukraine, should Putin invade.
-- If l'm understanding this correctly, McStain is pimping these clowns:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraines-ne...ii/5373773
You can't go by anything global research says.
-- why not?
Because it's conspiracy theory and not fact-based. I have seen their site before. No need for me ever to visit it again. Total crap.
-- l'll have to muck around in there some. That article l linked to was making my eyes glaze over so l assumed it was legit
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(02-20-2017, 12:30 PM)Marypoza Wrote: (02-18-2017, 10:59 PM)TnT Wrote: (02-17-2017, 04:12 PM)Marypoza Wrote: (02-17-2017, 04:04 PM)TnT Wrote: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-...da0aa5e7a1
I'm currently voting for John McCain as Grey Champion. Lord knows I disagree with him on a host of issues, but I don't doubt his good faith affection for the best for our country.
-- You are aware that McStain is pimping a Ukrainian war
http://news.antiwar.com/2017/02/03/sens-...offensive/
-- l'm sticking with Bernie
There are a lot of moving parts here. Given the equivocal nature of Trump's relationships with Putin and Russia, one can't help but wonder what might be on the menu for other eastern European countries in the face of the possibility of Trump thinking he can "make a deal" with Putin or whatever the hell is in Trump's head.
If, on the other hand, some serious posturing were done in the Ukraine, Putin might take pause in his re-taking/rebuilding the good old USSR.
Sure, it's risky. Everything is risky. So is allowing Putin to do whatever the hell he wants to do. And Trump may be the guy to allow that.
So, if you were President, what would be YOUR overall strategy in projecting, or not projecting, the U.S.'s perspective into the world at large?
-- l pretty much agree with Rags- we need to stay/butt out (whichever applies) of other countries affairs. I've always found it hypocritical that the Govt- this so-called bastion of democracy- props up dictators & thugs, occasionally even overthrowing a democratically elected govt (hello Chile, Honduras, to name 2 off the top of my head) & now this misadventure in the Ukraine. l generally consider it hyperbolic when folx compare your run of the mill garden variety thug to Hitler, but in the case of these Ukranians there might be something to it considering their daddies & grandaddies were probably working for the Real Thing back in the day. And McStain, et al, is propping up this scheisse. Pretty disgusting imho
Putin is a threat to all Western democracies and your sucking up to him is disgusting. We need to double on Ukraine, bring them into NATO and arm them. All you isolationist fools can scream bloody murder all I care.
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(02-21-2017, 07:50 AM)Odin Wrote: (02-20-2017, 12:30 PM)Marypoza Wrote: (02-18-2017, 10:59 PM)TnT Wrote: (02-17-2017, 04:12 PM)Marypoza Wrote: (02-17-2017, 04:04 PM)TnT Wrote: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-...da0aa5e7a1
I'm currently voting for John McCain as Grey Champion. Lord knows I disagree with him on a host of issues, but I don't doubt his good faith affection for the best for our country.
-- You are aware that McStain is pimping a Ukrainian war
http://news.antiwar.com/2017/02/03/sens-...offensive/
-- l'm sticking with Bernie
There are a lot of moving parts here. Given the equivocal nature of Trump's relationships with Putin and Russia, one can't help but wonder what might be on the menu for other eastern European countries in the face of the possibility of Trump thinking he can "make a deal" with Putin or whatever the hell is in Trump's head.
If, on the other hand, some serious posturing were done in the Ukraine, Putin might take pause in his re-taking/rebuilding the good old USSR.
Sure, it's risky. Everything is risky. So is allowing Putin to do whatever the hell he wants to do. And Trump may be the guy to allow that.
So, if you were President, what would be YOUR overall strategy in projecting, or not projecting, the U.S.'s perspective into the world at large?
-- l pretty much agree with Rags- we need to stay/butt out (whichever applies) of other countries affairs. I've always found it hypocritical that the Govt- this so-called bastion of democracy- props up dictators & thugs, occasionally even overthrowing a democratically elected govt (hello Chile, Honduras, to name 2 off the top of my head) & now this misadventure in the Ukraine. l generally consider it hyperbolic when folx compare your run of the mill garden variety thug to Hitler, but in the case of these Ukranians there might be something to it considering their daddies & grandaddies were probably working for the Real Thing back in the day. And McStain, et al, is propping up this scheisse. Pretty disgusting imho
Putin is a threat to all Western democracies and your sucking up to him is disgusting. We need to double on Ukraine, bring them into NATO and arm them. All you isolationist fools can scream bloody murder all I care.
-- dude!! Take your meds
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(02-21-2017, 02:07 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-21-2017, 10:09 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: BRING ON WWIII, WHEW!!!
Isolationism worked really good in 1936 ... then it worked even better in 1938.
/sarc
It's always 1938 somewhere. 
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(02-21-2017, 02:04 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-17-2017, 04:04 PM)TnT Wrote: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-...da0aa5e7a1
I'm currently voting for John McCain as Grey Champion. Lord knows I disagree with him on a host of issues, but I don't doubt his good faith affection for the best for our country.
He's probably the lead Grey Champion. There are probably multiple ones. Younger Silents and older Boomers.
No-one acquiesing to the worst cabinet appointments and the worst domestic policies in the history of The West can possibly be called a grey champion, despite his stepping into the breach of some of Drump's foreign policy lunacy. This 4T is going to be primarily domestic, and a grey champion is not someone who upholds all the wrong domestic policies and co-hires wolves to guard chicken coops.
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02-21-2017, 04:31 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-21-2017, 04:32 PM by Odin.)
(02-21-2017, 11:14 AM)Marypoza Wrote: -- dude!! Take your meds
Nah, it's more like seeing horrible shit going on in Bosnia and Rwanda on the news as a kid has a way of making a person instinctively despise isolationism.
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02-21-2017, 10:26 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-21-2017, 10:27 PM by SomeGuy.)
(02-21-2017, 04:31 PM)Odin Wrote: (02-21-2017, 11:14 AM)Marypoza Wrote: -- dude!! Take your meds
Nah, it's more like seeing horrible shit going on in Bosnia and Rwanda on the news as a kid has a way of making a person instinctively despise isolationism.
Don't worry, I am sure the next generation will look at the horrors of WWIII (to say nothing of Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.) and instinctively despise interventionism. Why, I bet you could even call it a generational difference, when the time comes. 
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(02-21-2017, 10:26 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: (02-21-2017, 04:31 PM)Odin Wrote: (02-21-2017, 11:14 AM)Marypoza Wrote: -- dude!! Take your meds
Nah, it's more like seeing horrible shit going on in Bosnia and Rwanda on the news as a kid has a way of making a person instinctively despise isolationism.
Don't worry, I am sure the next generation will look at the horrors of WWIII (to say nothing of Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.) and instinctively despise interventionism. Why, I bet you could even call it a generational difference, when the time comes.
You know that WW2 is why isolationists are made fun of and compared to Neville Chamberlain, right?
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(02-22-2017, 08:04 AM)Odin Wrote: (02-21-2017, 10:26 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: (02-21-2017, 04:31 PM)Odin Wrote: (02-21-2017, 11:14 AM)Marypoza Wrote: -- dude!! Take your meds
Nah, it's more like seeing horrible shit going on in Bosnia and Rwanda on the news as a kid has a way of making a person instinctively despise isolationism.
Don't worry, I am sure the next generation will look at the horrors of WWIII (to say nothing of Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.) and instinctively despise interventionism. Why, I bet you could even call it a generational difference, when the time comes.
You know that WW2 is why isolationists are made fun of and compared to Neville Chamberlain, right?
Yup, and as all Americans know, WWII is at least 50% of ALL HISTORY THAT MATTERS. Go to your local B & N, you'll see. The History section will probably be divided something like this:
1. War (Namely WWII, the Civil War, Vietnam, WWI, everything else)
2. 'MURCA (Nuff said)
3. Everything else ('cause maybe your kid has to do a book report or something)
Seems reasonable to me. 
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