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(06-13-2016, 01:50 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The fact is that we read those 14 points during the Bush-Cheney administration, and many of us thought then that we were on the verge of fascism because so many of them applied to the USA. And especially the last point, which put Bush in office.
Beware of preparing to fight the last war. In my opinion the majority worldview in the US is now some form of secularism and Christianity is now a minority religion. I don't see fascism in the USA, but I am am concerned about a tyranny of the majority ( the secularist majority).
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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06-13-2016, 12:59 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2016, 01:03 PM by Eric the Green.)
(06-13-2016, 12:36 PM)radind Wrote: (06-13-2016, 01:50 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The fact is that we read those 14 points during the Bush-Cheney administration, and many of us thought then that we were on the verge of fascism because so many of them applied to the USA. And especially the last point, which put Bush in office.
Beware of preparing to fight the last war. In my opinion the majority worldview in the US is now some form of secularism and Christianity is now a minority religion. I don't see fascism in the USA, but I am am concerned about a tyranny of the majority ( the secularist majority).
And I am more concerned about the Christian majority. It is they and not secularists who threaten freedom of religion.
Again, I just seem to have a keen grasp of the obvious. It is my only virtue, perhaps. And it's also obvious (as demonstrated here) how many people cannot grasp the obvious.
8.Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
As in Karl Rove's famous strategy: just get the religious right's support, and that will get us elected. Worked in 2004.
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(06-13-2016, 12:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-13-2016, 12:36 PM)radind Wrote: (06-13-2016, 01:50 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The fact is that we read those 14 points during the Bush-Cheney administration, and many of us thought then that we were on the verge of fascism because so many of them applied to the USA. And especially the last point, which put Bush in office.
Beware of preparing to fight the last war. In my opinion the majority worldview in the US is now some form of secularism and Christianity is now a minority religion. I don't see fascism in the USA, but I am am concerned about a tyranny of the majority ( the secularist majority).
And I am more concerned about the Christian majority. It is they and not secularists who threaten freedom of religion.
Again, I just seem to have a keen grasp of the obvious. It is my only virtue, perhaps. And it's also obvious (as demonstrated here) how many people cannot grasp the obvious.
This is where we have a different perception about the current situation. In my opinion, Christianity is now in the minority and not a threat . The secularist are the real majority and a potential threat. The secularists can practice their dogma in same manner as religions.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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06-13-2016, 01:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2016, 01:25 PM by Eric the Green.)
(06-13-2016, 01:05 PM)radind Wrote: (06-13-2016, 12:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-13-2016, 12:36 PM)radind Wrote: (06-13-2016, 01:50 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The fact is that we read those 14 points during the Bush-Cheney administration, and many of us thought then that we were on the verge of fascism because so many of them applied to the USA. And especially the last point, which put Bush in office.
Beware of preparing to fight the last war. In my opinion the majority worldview in the US is now some form of secularism and Christianity is now a minority religion. I don't see fascism in the USA, but I am am concerned about a tyranny of the majority ( the secularist majority).
And I am more concerned about the Christian majority. It is they and not secularists who threaten freedom of religion.
Again, I just seem to have a keen grasp of the obvious. It is my only virtue, perhaps. And it's also obvious (as demonstrated here) how many people cannot grasp the obvious.
This is where we have a different perception about the current situation. In my opinion, Christianity is now in the minority and not a threat . The secularist are the real majority and a potential threat. The secularists can practice their dogma in same manner as religions.
And that is where I explained to you before. Don't conceive a threat where none exists. Others have different worldviews than your own, which permit behavior that you oppose. That is not a threat, nor does it mean they are imposing their religion on you. Get used to it. Gays exist and they have monogamous relationships. They always have and always will. Get over your revulsion against people who are different. Revulsion against people who are different caused a massacre in which 50 people died this week.
Truly, it's time to question worldviews that put people down. Where is the threat? Obviously, worldviews that brand people who are different as wrong, is a threat to everyone. It could directly result in your death, thanks also to our lax gun laws. I wonder how you can continue to hold on to your dislike or disapproval of people who are different, in the face of the obvious deadly results of that sort of view.
Respect gays, and uphold their rights!
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Secularism = the constitution. Freedom of religion. Equal rights to all regardless of religion or lack thereof.
"Biblical" Christian world view = misinterpretation of the Bible. Put downs of people of other religions, saying Christ is "the way." Restrictions on people who violate the norms of the Bible, AS interpreted only by the mis-labelled "Biblical" Christians. Support for worldviews that foster hate and murder.
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(06-13-2016, 01:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Secularism = the constitution. Freedom of religion. Equal rights to all regardless of religion or lack thereof.
"Biblical" Christian world view = misinterpretation of the Bible. Put downs of people of other religions, saying Christ is "the way." Restrictions on people who violate the norms of the Bible, AS interpreted only by the mis-labelled "Biblical" Christians. Support for worldviews that foster hate and murder.
In spite of your assertions, the USA is now primarily secular. What I claim as my worldview, you put down to misinterpretation of the Bible. I clearly disagree with you , but have the right ( so far) to my interpretation. My worldview does not foster hate and murder.
It take a few more years to see which of us is proved to be correct, based on actual outcomes.
We remain at stalemate
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(06-13-2016, 07:29 PM)radind Wrote: (06-13-2016, 01:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Secularism = the constitution. Freedom of religion. Equal rights to all regardless of religion or lack thereof.
"Biblical" Christian world view = misinterpretation of the Bible. Put downs of people of other religions, saying Christ is "the way." Restrictions on people who violate the norms of the Bible, AS interpreted only by the mis-labelled "Biblical" Christians. Support for worldviews that foster hate and murder.
In spite of your assertions, the USA is now primarily secular. What I claim as my worldview, you put down to misinterpretation of the Bible. I clearly disagree with you , but have the right ( so far) to my interpretation. My worldview does not foster hate and murder.
It take a few more years to see which of us is proved to be correct, based on actual outcomes.
We remain at stalemate
I have already proved the falsehood of your world view. You are unable to defend it.
Do you support full rights for gays/LGBT people, or not?
Do you deny that the shooter did not?
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06-13-2016, 07:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2016, 07:49 PM by Eric the Green.)
I mean, really?
75% of Americans identify with a Christian religion
Christian identification is down from 80% in 2008
5% of Americans identify with a non-Christian religion, little changed
http://www.gallup.com/poll/187955/percen...-high.aspx
Secularity
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularity
Secularity (adjective form secular,[1] from Latin saecularis meaning "worldly" or "temporal") is the state of being separate from religion, or of not being exclusively allied with or against any particular religion.
For instance, one can regard eating and bathing as examples of secular activities, because there may not be anything inherently religious about them. Nevertheless, some religious traditions see both eating and bathing as sacraments, therefore making them religious activities within those world views. Saying a prayer derived from religious text or doctrine, worshipping through the context of a religion, and attending a religious school are examples of religious (non-secular) activities.
A related term, "secularism", involves the principle that government institutions and their representatives should remain separate from religious institutions, their beliefs, and their dignitaries. Most businesses and corporations, and some governments, operate on secular lines.
Simple Definition of secular
- : not spiritual : of or relating to the physical world and not the spiritual world
- : not religious
- : of, relating to, or controlled by the government rather than by the church
Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/secular
Full Definition of secular
- 1a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns>
- b : not overtly or specifically religious <secular music>
- c : not ecclesiastical or <secular courts> <secular landowners>
- 2: not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation <a secular priest>
- 3a : occurring once in an age or a century
- b : existing or continuing through ages or centuries
- c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration <secular inflation>
Interestingly, this forum is about the saeculum, which is the same as definition #3a here.
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(06-13-2016, 01:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-13-2016, 01:05 PM)radind Wrote: (06-13-2016, 12:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-13-2016, 12:36 PM)radind Wrote: (06-13-2016, 01:50 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The fact is that we read those 14 points during the Bush-Cheney administration, and many of us thought then that we were on the verge of fascism because so many of them applied to the USA. And especially the last point, which put Bush in office.
Beware of preparing to fight the last war. In my opinion the majority worldview in the US is now some form of secularism and Christianity is now a minority religion. I don't see fascism in the USA, but I am am concerned about a tyranny of the majority ( the secularist majority).
And I am more concerned about the Christian majority. It is they and not secularists who threaten freedom of religion.
Again, I just seem to have a keen grasp of the obvious. It is my only virtue, perhaps. And it's also obvious (as demonstrated here) how many people cannot grasp the obvious.
This is where we have a different perception about the current situation. In my opinion, Christianity is now in the minority and not a threat . The secularist are the real majority and a potential threat. The secularists can practice their dogma in same manner as religions.
And that is where I explained to you before. Don't conceive a threat where none exists. Others have different worldviews than your own, which permit behavior that you oppose. That is not a threat, nor does it mean they are imposing their religion on you. Get used to it. Gays exist and they have monogamous relationships. They always have and always will. Get over your revulsion against people who are different. Revulsion against people who are different caused a massacre in which 50 people died this week.
Truly, it's time to question worldviews that put people down. Where is the threat? Obviously, worldviews that brand people who are different as wrong, is a threat to everyone. It could directly result in your death, thanks also to our lax gun laws. I wonder how you can continue to hold on to your dislike or disapproval of people who are different, in the face of the obvious deadly results of that sort of view.
Respect gays, and uphold their rights!
I respect all people who are created in the image of God. So I reject your term of 'dislike'. There are some behaviors that I consider contrary to what I understand Christianity to be.
I fully realize that those with a Biblical worldview are clearly now in the minority. I do have to accept the fact that the secular majority will do whatever they choose.( I do not have to approve).
The massacre should be condemned by all.
It is the secular majority in general that I am concerned about( not the gays). It appears to me that the secularists operate with religious zeal and I do not expect religious liberty to survive for the Christian minority.
It appears that neither us is likely to change their views of the world.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(06-13-2016, 07:35 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-13-2016, 07:29 PM)radind Wrote: (06-13-2016, 01:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Secularism = the constitution. Freedom of religion. Equal rights to all regardless of religion or lack thereof.
"Biblical" Christian world view = misinterpretation of the Bible. Put downs of people of other religions, saying Christ is "the way." Restrictions on people who violate the norms of the Bible, AS interpreted only by the mis-labelled "Biblical" Christians. Support for worldviews that foster hate and murder.
In spite of your assertions, the USA is now primarily secular. What I claim as my worldview, you put down to misinterpretation of the Bible. I clearly disagree with you , but have the right ( so far) to my interpretation. My worldview does not foster hate and murder.
It take a few more years to see which of us is proved to be correct, based on actual outcomes.
We remain at stalemate
I have already proved the falsehood of your world view. You are unable to defend it.
Do you support full rights for gays/LGBT people, or not?
Do you deny that the shooter did not?
You can make all the assertions you want. I will stand behind my worldview and I expect you to stand behind yours.
I do not think that the behavior of gays/LGBT is condoned by the Bible. I also don't agree with killing unborn babies.
So, on the political front I will try to vote for those who are more in line with Christian views. In the future, I may not have anyone to vote for.
The shooter had no respect for people and committed an evil act. It does appear that this may have been an Islamic terrorists attack.
It is one thing to not approve of certain behavior, and it is quite another to hate or murder other people. In my view of Christianity , there is no room for hate, much less for murder.
Quote:Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. ( 1 John 3:15, ESV)
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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06-13-2016, 11:53 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-14-2016, 12:04 AM by Eric the Green.)
(06-13-2016, 08:16 PM)radind Wrote: (06-13-2016, 07:35 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-13-2016, 07:29 PM)radind Wrote: (06-13-2016, 01:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Secularism = the constitution. Freedom of religion. Equal rights to all regardless of religion or lack thereof.
"Biblical" Christian world view = misinterpretation of the Bible. Put downs of people of other religions, saying Christ is "the way." Restrictions on people who violate the norms of the Bible, AS interpreted only by the mis-labelled "Biblical" Christians. Support for worldviews that foster hate and murder.
In spite of your assertions, the USA is now primarily secular. What I claim as my worldview, you put down to misinterpretation of the Bible. I clearly disagree with you , but have the right ( so far) to my interpretation. My worldview does not foster hate and murder.
It take a few more years to see which of us is proved to be correct, based on actual outcomes.
We remain at stalemate
I have already proved the falsehood of your world view. You are unable to defend it.
Do you support full rights for gays/LGBT people, or not?
Do you deny that the shooter did not?
You can make all the assertions you want. I will stand behind my worldview and I expect you to stand behind yours.
Your worldview may work fine for you, but for the less stable, it conditions hate and murder. You stand behind your worldview, but you have no valid or rational defense for it.
Quote:I do not think that the behavior of gays/LGBT is condoned by the Bible. I also don't agree with killing unborn babies.
You don't support gay rights. That attitude conditions homophobia and assaults on gays among some people. The Bible is not the constitution. Fetuses are not necessarily babies. Christians don't get to repeal the constitution, or to interpret it. That's up to the congress and the courts.
Quote:So, on the political front I will try to vote for those who are more in line with Christian views. In the future, I may not have anyone to vote for.
Liberals also vote for those who are more in line with Christian views. Just not your version of Christian.
Quote:The shooter had no respect for people and committed an evil act. It does appear that this may have been an Islamic terrorists attack.
Not, it does NOT so appear. At most the shooter was influenced by what he read and how he was brought up.
Respect gay people.
Quote:It is one thing to not approve of certain behavior, and it is quite another to hate or murder other people. In my view of Christianity , there is no room for hate, much less for murder.
Quote:Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. ( 1 John 3:15, ESV)
[/quote]
You say you don't hate gay people, but you don't want them to have the same rights as others. You are repelled by their behavior simply because it's different from yours. The shooter was also repelled by their behavior. As if kissing someone is wrong.
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(06-13-2016, 07:45 PM)radind Wrote: I respect all people who are created in the image of God. So I reject your term of 'dislike'. There are some behaviors that I consider contrary to what I understand Christianity to be.
I fully realize that those with a Biblical worldview are clearly now in the minority. I do have to accept the fact that the secular majority will do whatever they choose.( I do not have to approve).
The massacre should be condemned by all.
It is the secular majority in general that I am concerned about( not the gays). It appears to me that the secularists operate with religious zeal and I do not expect religious liberty to survive for the Christian minority.
It appears that neither us is likely to change their views of the world.
How do you expect secularists to take away religious liberty from the Christian minority, ( besides the strange ways you mentioned before that I blew out of the water?)
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06-14-2016, 12:02 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-14-2016, 12:02 AM by Eric the Green.)
(06-13-2016, 12:36 PM)radind Wrote: Beware of preparing to fight the last war.
Armageddon? Are you saying that secularism's rise, and the defense of human rights against Christian claims that discrimination against gays should be allowed, will bring it on?
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06-14-2016, 02:51 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-14-2016, 03:47 AM by pbrower2a.)
(06-14-2016, 12:49 AM)taramarie Wrote: The bible is twisted to suit people's agendas all the time. It used to be used to justify slavery. Now it is used to oppress gays. You cannot go round picking and choosing what parts suit your agenda then ignore other parts you probably have done which the bible also states is an abomination. You better PRAY the bible lies and heaven is a fantasy because if not you are going to hell if you do any of the things it says is an abomination. Look to my link for reference. You can hate them all you like because the bible is against them....but look to your actions first. Never mind what they are doing and especially do not prevent them from having the equality you already enjoy. I am sure you would be pissed if you went through what they have and continue to go through. But who cares right? As long as your rights are valued and put before anyone elses. Hate them all you like but you should not get preferential rights over another who is different from you.
As a moral code the Bible creates problems. Much of the text proves to be rigid rules of ritual behavior and dietary ( kashrut) rules that few people have the ability to follow, and that have little value as a moral code. To be sure, Orthodox Jews can be wonderful people -- but for acting upon conscience, and not for rejecting pork and shellfish or meals that consist of meat and dairy.
Nothing in the Bible says anything about child abuse, slavery, narcotics, or drunk driving (addendum: being evil or undesirable).
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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Exodus 21:16 ESV
Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.
I can live with that.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(06-14-2016, 12:02 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-13-2016, 12:36 PM)radind Wrote: Beware of preparing to fight the last war.
Armageddon? Are you saying that secularism's rise, and the defense of human rights against Christian claims that discrimination against gays should be allowed, will bring it on?
I don't know what you mean by 'Armageddon?'.
By the last war , I mean that you write about concern for the Christian majority when there is no longer a Christian majority. There is a Christian minority with a secularist majority.
My concern is that the secularist majority will not tolerate Christians values.
I am for religious liberty and respect for all.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(06-14-2016, 02:51 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (06-14-2016, 12:49 AM)taramarie Wrote: The bible is twisted to suit people's agendas all the time. It used to be used to justify slavery. Now it is used to oppress gays. You cannot go round picking and choosing what parts suit your agenda then ignore other parts you probably have done which the bible also states is an abomination. You better PRAY the bible lies and heaven is a fantasy because if not you are going to hell if you do any of the things it says is an abomination. Look to my link for reference. You can hate them all you like because the bible is against them....but look to your actions first. Never mind what they are doing and especially do not prevent them from having the equality you already enjoy. I am sure you would be pissed if you went through what they have and continue to go through. But who cares right? As long as your rights are valued and put before anyone elses. Hate them all you like but you should not get preferential rights over another who is different from you.
As a moral code the Bible creates problems. Much of the text proves to be rigid rules of ritual behavior and dietary (kashrut) rules that few people have the ability to follow, and that have little value as a moral code. To be sure, Orthodox Jews can be wonderful people -- but for acting upon conscience, and not for rejecting pork and shellfish or meals that consist of meat and dairy.
Nothing in the Bible says anything about child abuse, slavery, narcotics, or drunk driving (addendum: being evil or undesirable).
My understanding is that Christians live under the New Testament( not OT law). A good summary is in the following.
Quote:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” ( MT 22:37-40 ESV)
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(06-14-2016, 04:02 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Exodus 21:16 ESV
Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.
I can live with that.
Slavery is clearly wrong. However, Christians do live under the New Testament, not the Old Testament.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(06-13-2016, 11:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-13-2016, 07:45 PM)radind Wrote: I respect all people who are created in the image of God. So I reject your term of 'dislike'. There are some behaviors that I consider contrary to what I understand Christianity to be.
I fully realize that those with a Biblical worldview are clearly now in the minority. I do have to accept the fact that the secular majority will do whatever they choose.( I do not have to approve).
The massacre should be condemned by all.
It is the secular majority in general that I am concerned about( not the gays). It appears to me that the secularists operate with religious zeal and I do not expect religious liberty to survive for the Christian minority.
It appears that neither us is likely to change their views of the world.
How do you expect secularists to take away religious liberty from the Christian minority, (besides the strange ways you mentioned before that I blew out of the water?)
Through the courts. I do not accept your analysis.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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06-14-2016, 09:38 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-14-2016, 09:40 AM by Eric the Green.)
(06-14-2016, 06:03 AM)radind Wrote: (06-13-2016, 11:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-13-2016, 07:45 PM)radind Wrote: I respect all people who are created in the image of God. So I reject your term of 'dislike'. There are some behaviors that I consider contrary to what I understand Christianity to be.
I fully realize that those with a Biblical worldview are clearly now in the minority. I do have to accept the fact that the secular majority will do whatever they choose.( I do not have to approve).
The massacre should be condemned by all.
It is the secular majority in general that I am concerned about( not the gays). It appears to me that the secularists operate with religious zeal and I do not expect religious liberty to survive for the Christian minority.
It appears that neither us is likely to change their views of the world.
How do you expect secularists to take away religious liberty from the Christian minority, (besides the strange ways you mentioned before that I blew out of the water?)
Through the courts. I do not accept your analysis.
What would the courts rule that would take away your religious liberty (again, other than what we already discussed) ?
Saying "through the courts" does not answer my question. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear. I didn't mean what institution would act; I meant what liberties would be taken away.
I understand that you "do have to accept the fact that the secular majority will do whatever they choose.( I do not have to approve)." If you don't approve, what actions would you support in order to alter what the secular majority does?
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