Are Millennials Cemented as Civics/Heroes Yet?

[Eric the Green]

(03-11-2022, 12:51 AM)JasonBlack Wrote: Overall I'd say millennials are quite Civic. The one glaring inconsistency is that civic responsibility is all about responsibility to your country. It's not that millennials are an extremely selfish generation (this is an unfair criticism that gets levied on us, but generally, it's not true), but that they often place the greater good of the entire world above their own country and families.

There is no difference. Many Millennials realize that the threat of climate breakdown is a threat to the whole world and that includes our country. They understand that many issues can't be restricted by national border.

Quote:The Ukraine fiasco is a good example. Like....really? Now is the time you want to go to war? At precisely the moment where it will cost your own people nothing but sacrifices with no payoff? Fighting moral crusades over gas while your own countrymen are in the worst depression in almost 100 years? Civics are supposed to support their people and their country, yet millennials walk around in perpetual guilt. I get some level of "why can't we have healthcare like Sweden?" or "Why can't we have work weeks like Australia?", but it's gotten to the point where people view their own country with shame and almost...want us to fail. I know not all of them are like this, but that such a large swathe feel this way is, at the very least, unusual for a Civic gen.

I disagree. The Ukraine invasion by Putin is a direct threat to our freedom and democracy. He has directly threatened the USA by putting his nuclear forces on high alert and declaring economic war. Millennials are not saying they want to go to war. They support the actions of ALL concerned people-- to impose severe sanctions on Russia and Putin and his oligarchs and to send all kinds of aid to Ukraine. This violation of the norms of behavior by nations encourages the many other dictators in this terrible crisis of increasing tyranny around the world to do the same.

It is not a matter of guilt. Many millennials see that other countries care about their citizen's health and their treatment of workers, and that the USA does not. They are exactly right. We are the most backward developed nation in the world by far, and millennials are civically-informed enough to know this, and to take action. This is desire for our nation to succeed, not to fail.

Quote:On a more positive note, one thing I will say is that they seem to be finally waking up to a kind of "wholesomeness" that American culture has lost touch with since the boom, and, even into their 30s, many of the more intellectually honest ones are open minded to changing their minds and adopting values they've only come to truly understand later in life. The "red pill" community is a good example of this. It's not that everything they believe is good (some of it is kinda disgusting, and I say this as a conservative), but that it started with cringe, immature PUAs from the 2000s and gradually grew into a more nuanced understanding of evolutionary psychology and history that has had some more positive offshoots as well (say what you will about horny bastards desperate for sex, it's a desire that lends itself to a kind of pragmatism and adaptability stemming from necessity). Coming full circle, sbarrera made a comment about how being a hero often means being a victim who is sacrificed for the greater good. I would add to that that most heroes don't set out choosing to be heroes. They get forced into it out of necessity, and forced to develop the character and skills necessary to make it through to the other side. It could be what we're seeing is that millennials could indeed be a "heroic" generation, just one comprised of...very late bloomers.

They are that. But many of us Boomers really felt liberated and elevated by the social and spiritual movements that our generation experienced in our youth. The best of us do, at any rate. Younger generations have a distorted view of those times painted by the media and conservative propaganda. I celebrate and revere those times. Millennials who understand this are blest.

[JasonBlack]

(03-11-2022, 05:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is no difference. Many Millennials realize that the threat of climate breakdown is a threat to the whole world and that includes our country. They understand that many issues can't be restricted by national border.

And the main problem therewith is their insistence on punishing their countrymen for excessive fossil fuel usage before viable, cost-effective alternatives are available. More on that below. 

in a word: 

Quote:I disagree. The Ukraine invasion by Putin is a direct threat to our freedom and democracy. He has directly threatened the USA by putting his nuclear forces on high alert and declaring economic war. Millennials are not saying they want to go to war. They support the actions of ALL concerned people-- to impose severe sanctions on Russia and Putin and his oligarchs and to send all kinds of aid to Ukraine. This violation of the norms of behavior by nations encourages the many other dictators in this terrible crisis of increasing tyranny around the world to do the same.

It is not a matter of guilt. Many millennials see that other countries care about their citizen's health and their treatment of workers, and that the USA does not. They are exactly right. We are the most backward developed nation in the world by far, and millennials are civically-informed enough to know this, and to take action. This is desire for our nation to succeed, not to fail.

I might be getting off topic here, moving from the realm of intentions/generation characteristics to specific policy, but even a cursory look at Russia's history compared to the US will tell you that's a terrible idea. 
1) Russia is used to authoritarian, top-down decrees on people's behavior in a way the US isn't.
2) They have never had a friendly international neighbor in over 1000 years. The Russian mindset is one of continual mistrust, paranoia and readiness to do battle. 
3) Suffering is in their blood. The Russians have turned stoicism into an artform. Even in the 21st century, "life is pain" is a very real concept to the Russian people, who are used to famines, harsh inland Winters, wars and violent outbreaks. 
4) One thing I will grant millennials: they are much more aware of the deficiencies of American infrastructure than older generations, especially our lack of efficient public transit. It is precisely for this reason that we are perhaps the country in the world most dependent on oil. We're also among the most dependent on satellite technology and internet usage, and any disruption thereof could potentially throw off an entire production line. I would like to see many more advancements in the field of alternative energy. We've made a good bit of progress so far, but until we do, we can't afford $10 gasoline the way public transit-rich Europe can. Timing and specifics are everything.
5) Russia is a strongly patriotic country where you look out for your own at all costs. America is more divided than it has ever been in the nation's history. They have the morale to get through this. We do not. 

Quote:They are that. But many of us Boomers really felt liberated and elevated by the social and spiritual movements that our generation experienced in our youth. The best of us do, at any rate. Younger generations have a distorted view of those times painted by the media and conservative propaganda. I celebrate and revere those times. Millennials who understand this are blest.

Sorry....what? Left and liberal-leaning journalists outnumber conservative journalists by a ratio of about 4 to 1 (source: professor Gad Saad). In 2022, even the corporations are leaning heavily to the left as far as media is concerned, which is something I would have thought oxymoronic even 10 years ago. Granted, much of what they're actually doing is still quite capitalistic, but the rhetoric most millennials have been exposed to over the last 14 years has been disproportionately left-leaning, not capitalistic, and least of all conservative.

[David Horn]

(03-11-2022, 10:32 AM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 05:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is no difference. Many Millennials realize that the threat of climate breakdown is a threat to the whole world and that includes our country. They understand that many issues can't be restricted by national border.

And the main problem therewith is their insistence on punishing their countrymen for excessive fossil fuel usage before viable, cost-effective alternatives are available.

True, though not as true as you might expect. Why do we lack alternatives? First, the energy consortium has done everything it can to keep us where we are, and they managed to convince Joe Sixpack that his pickup truck would be replaced by a microcar is they didn't get their way. The same applies to home HVAC, with threats of hyper-expensive electricity. Another problem is NIMBYism, and I don't have a good solution to that short of outright build-by-decree.

The other problem is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, which is a lefty problem. Here, you're right. Sorry, but we need a lot of optins other than solar and wind, or this doesn't get resolved.

I'll leave the other topics to other posts.

[galaxy]

(03-11-2022, 05:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: They are that. But many of us Boomers really felt liberated and elevated by the social and spiritual movements that our generation experienced in our youth. The best of us do, at any rate. Younger generations have a distorted view of those times painted by the media and conservative propaganda. I celebrate and revere those times. Millennials who understand this are blest.

It's all well and good to appreciate those times for what they were, but it's also important to recognize that those times are in many ways responsible, at least indirectly, for the current times. No turning can continue forever, especially not a 2T, which is perhaps the least sustainable of all of them. It's interesting to me that you have such positive feelings about the 2T still, because the social and spiritual movements of the 1960s and 1970s, as positive as they were (at least at the beginning), were ultimately responsible for creating the very neoliberalism you are so vocally against. These two things are inseparable. They are one event and must be understood as such.

This is why many Millennials feel negatively toward this time. It is not just the time that created the ideology that this generation perceives as responsible for many of the problems of today - it's also the time when society appears to have collectively decided "well, it looks like we're driving in the right general direction, I guess we don't need this anymore" and thrown the steering wheel out the window. And this worked fine for a few decades (3T), but Millennials are now the generation that has been saddled with the responsibility - through no fault of their own - of desperately trying to reattach the steering wheel as fast as possible while the Car Of Society is careening toward a cliff, and the Boomers are fighting it every step of the way, because they're either planning to jump out or expecting to be dead before the car reaches the cliff.

This is where Millennial anti-2Tism comes from. It is the perspective of people who have experienced only negative effects of 2T, never the positive parts.

So, all of this to say...it's important to try to step outside of one's own generational biases, and appreciate all turnings for what they are, in full. All turnings are "morally neutral." They are good and bad equally, and none should be celebrated more than any other. This is a crucial point of the theory.

The times you celebrate and revere cannot occur in isolation. There is always another side to the coin, and it can't be ignored.

[JasonBlack]

(03-11-2022, 11:25 AM)David Horn Wrote: True, though not as true as you might expect. Why do we lack alternatives? First, the energy consortium has done everything it can to keep us where we are, and they managed to convince Joe Sixpack that his pickup truck would be replaced by a microcar is they didn't get their way. The same applies to home HVAC, with threats of hyper-expensive electricity.

imo, research into alternative energy has produced a range of possible options, but the emphasis here is on the "cost-effective" bit, which we have not reached apart from limited applications of solar and various procedures to produce ethanol....which requires more energy to produce than it gives off when used. The low end for electric cars is something like $30,000 a year: over a year's salary for about 1/3 of the country.

Quote:Another problem is NIMBYism, and I don't have a good solution to that short of outright build-by-decree.

exactly

Quote:The other problem is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, which is a lefty problem. Here, you're right. Sorry, but we need a lot of optins other than solar and wind, or this doesn't get resolved.

I'll leave the other topics to other posts.

on that we can agree. personally I'm bullish on nuclear.

[Eric the Green]

(03-11-2022, 01:44 PM)galaxy Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 05:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: They are that. But many of us Boomers really felt liberated and elevated by the social and spiritual movements that our generation experienced in our youth. The best of us do, at any rate. Younger generations have a distorted view of those times painted by the media and conservative propaganda. I celebrate and revere those times. Millennials who understand this are blest.

It's all well and good to appreciate those times for what they were, but it's also important to recognize that those times are in many ways responsible, at least indirectly, for the current times. No turning can continue forever, especially not a 2T, which is perhaps the least sustainable of all of them. It's interesting to me that you have such positive feelings about the 2T still, because the social and spiritual movements of the 1960s and 1970s, as positive as they were (at least at the beginning), were ultimately responsible for creating the very neoliberalism you are so vocally against. These two things are inseparable. They are one event and must be understood as such.

Long reply; sorry

My view at the time, and I still basically think this, that a society is not really functioning unless it is in 2T all the time.

I totally disagree, and have said so here many times, that the Awakening was responsible for neoliberalism. The Awakening was cultural and spiritual, and politically progressive. Neoliberalism did not originate and grow out of boomer youth movements and other spiritual and cultural movements of those times nor out of the social reform movements of those times. The latter especially are the opposite of neoliberalism. NO, they are NOT one event, and MUST be understood separately, and in fact as opposites.

Neoliberalism has a specific origin among economic thinkers who were concerned about growing totalitarian trends in the 1940s. It originates then, and not in the 1960s. The founders of neoliberalism are Hayek, Mises, Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman. Specific academic locations were involved, especially Vienna and Chicago. Older GI gen member Howard Jarvis (also a John Birch Society member and organizer) can also be considered a founder, because his anti property tax initiative in California started a nationwide tax revolt in 1978 that Reagan took over in 1980 and brought into power. Thatcher brought it to power in the UK in 1979, and Helmut Kohl in West Germany about this time.

Boomer cultural creatives and hippies did not create an economic theory against taxes and regulations on business, nor the trickle-down economics theory. That was done by economists and politicians. It came to power in the late 2T, but that was a period of the first major reaction against the Awakening. I call it the Sleepening, and also included the "white awakening" in pop music (lousy cynical punk, heavy metal styles), and religion back in politics (the moral majority, the Ayatollah's revolution in Iran, the Jonestown massacre and Moscone/Milk killings). But its power was tenuous until Reagan's re-election in 1984, when it was definitely established as the ideology of the 3T, and it has the traits of a 3T unravelling, and it took firm hold when Reagan convinced the people that it was Morning in America.

Quote:This is why many Millennials feel negatively toward this time. It is not just the time that created the ideology that this generation perceives as responsible for many of the problems of today - it's also the time when society appears to have collectively decided "well, it looks like we're driving in the right general direction, I guess we don't need this anymore" and thrown the steering wheel out the window. And this worked fine for a few decades (3T), but Millennials are now the generation that has been saddled with the responsibility - through no fault of their own - of desperately trying to reattach the steering wheel as fast as possible while the Car Of Society is careening toward a cliff, and the Boomers are fighting it every step of the way, because they're either planning to jump out or expecting to be dead before the car reaches the cliff.

This is where Millennial anti-2Tism comes from. It is the perspective of people who have experienced only negative effects of 2T, never the positive parts.

NO, it is NOT why many feel negatively toward this time. It is because the reforms and proposals of the 2T were resisted by neoliberalism and during the 3T. If Millennials blame the 2T, they need to redirect this toward the 3T, or at least toward the ANTI-Awakening of circa 1979-1980, which in that sense you could say the ANTI-Awakening (Sleepening) was part of the late 2T. Indeed, in the late/ending period of the 2T and early 3T society more and more decided we didn't need the older kind of liberalism anymore, but I'd say the final decision was made in 1984, because at first nothing changed about the deep recession that we were in and trickle-down economics had not yet SEEMED (falsely) to get the economy going again. Reagan was a very powerful and charismatic actor-politician, with a very high horoscope score as a USA presidential candidate. He was destined to win, and the USA adopting neoliberalism was in large part due to the simple fact that Reagan was a more skilled candidate than Jimmy Carter or Walter Mondale.

Boomers are a divided generation. Probably a slim majority of us adopted neoliberalism and turned their backs on the higher realizations, and also on the reform movements of the 2T (environmentalism, the peace movement, equality movements, consumer protection movements, social-spending movements, etc.). The Boomers who helped energize those movements (many led by mid-life Silents or late GI Generation members) did not create neoliberalism, but some became Yuppies and adopted neoliberalism in circa 1984. The S&H authors pointed out that that was the year when people of all living generations decided to go along with the prevailing materialism and conservatism and follow the charming actor onto the road that leads off the cliff. The problems understood and protested and the created reforms by the Boomers of the actual Awakening (circa 1964-1980) (rather than the Sleepening) are still the agenda of our 4T today. That's because neoliberalism caused them to be blocked for 40 years and counting.

Quote:So, all of this to say...it's important to try to step outside of one's own generational biases, and appreciate all turnings for what they are, in full. All turnings are "morally neutral." They are good and bad equally, and none should be celebrated more than any other. This is a crucial point of the theory.

The times you celebrate and revere cannot occur in isolation. There is always another side to the coin, and it can't be ignored.

So, YOU step out of your biases too. And it's true, younger generations today are generally ignorant and misled about the Awakening culture.

I know that appreciating all the turnings is part of the theory. I understand the point; there's no cycle without all its phases. But I dissent to a degree from this. The cycle is largely dysfunctional (including the 2T, actually). It's better than no progress at all, which is what society was like before saecula started. But the turnings only exist because either people resist the movements that bring progress in the 2T-- because the powers-that-be resist (that is directly where neoliberalism came from, and how it was financed)-- or because of other harmful ideologies like materialism which have so dominated American society, and maybe others. A healthy society is one in which spirituality, enlightened religion and creativity are cultivated and developed all the time, not just in spectacular and explosive early and middle 2Ts as in the USA. I understand that is my opinion, and not necessarily Mr. Howe's, nor was it Strauss's.

It's not that I don't see the flaws in the Awakening culture. I do, but it's partly those flaws (like rampant drug abuse, exaggerated innocent rebellion, angry protests, etc), and the abrupt arrival of new lifestyles that disrupted old patterns that were hard to adjust to (like feminism, sexual revolution/free love, racial integration, neglect of children, gay rights, etc.), that helped make the Awakening fail and thus create the reaction in the 3T and among Xers. And this is all largely due in turn to the general on-going inferiority of American society; it's crass commercialism and competitiveness and its astounding ignorance of the spiritual nature of life and its higher purposes. Neoliberalism had a ready-made soil in the USA, where rugged individualism and capitalism were so well-entrenched already and where similar ideologies had already prevailed and dominated two previous 3Ts and 1Ts.

Millennials do not resent the Boomers as much as you say. They have adopted many of their causes, because neoliberalism caused these causes to be blocked for over 40 years. That block is why we are going off a cliff now, not the movements of the Awakening. Boomers in many cases have also been slow to retire and move over and give up their status, wealth and power, and many Millennials do resent this. Neoliberalism has created a society in which upward financial mobility has been largely lost and the middle class shrunk.

Of course, neoliberalism has an appeal to all generations. It is an easy sell, and many Millennials also adopt and vote for it, especially in the southern and red states. So do many early cohort Boomers, and especially Silents and Jones Boomers and most younger and middle cohort Xers. Who likes "the government"? "Freedom" "Government is the problem, not the solution" "lower taxes will allow job creaters to stimulate the economy and the benefits will trickle down from them"; all very tempting slogans. Who likes to pay taxes? What an easy sell; just abandon all civic responsibility and the magic of the market will just work on its own. And it has great appeal in the USA because of its history so far.

The Awakening of the 60s and 70s was an attempt to move the USA off this path toward a genuinely healthy society. But it's hard to do, not only because of the habits and resistance, but because that new path is too hard for Americans brought up in this crass commercial society to live out. It was easy for market capitalism to co-opt the boomer youth styles; American capitalism is adept at selling what's "cool." The USA is a nation of salespeople. "Dollar trappers, no past, no future" as Oswald Spengler described it over 100 years ago. We needed that "movement toward a new America". We still do need it.

The hippes talked about "doing your own thing." It was people doing their own thing, more-or-less like the others in their group. It was "everybody get together, try to love one another right now" too. At a deeper level, the human potential movement that powered the 2T, and is largely forgotten today among Millennials, was geared toward discovering the inner core of the genuine self, spiritually connected to a larger Being, out of which fulfilled living comes; rather than being led around by an implanted inner gyroscope of social programming about what success is in a commercial and conformist and glamour-driven society (so dominant in the 1T that preceeded the 2T). Some people seeking this inner discovery in the Awakening were later coopted by the false individualism of neoliberalism (Jerry Rubin is a famous example), which really just brought back the same conformity to the "greed is good" commercial programming about material and financial success through competition so dominant in American society during previous 1T and 3T periods. Discovering inner power and confidence and the "power of positive thinking" was already applied to commercial rugged-individualist competition culture in the USA long before the Awakening, and some yuppies applied it again in the same way during its 3T revival in the 1980s. Donald Trump is a famous adopter of this philosophy. But it's not the same thing.

In All in the Family terms, Archie Bunker was the GI veteran, and GI generation. Michael Stivic was the protester, the Boomer. Now you are saying Archie Bunker was the Boomer, and Michael is the Millennial, with no difference at all.

[Eric the Green]

(03-11-2022, 10:32 AM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 05:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is no difference. Many Millennials realize that the threat of climate breakdown is a threat to the whole world and that includes our country. They understand that many issues can't be restricted by national border.

And the main problem therewith is their insistence on punishing their countrymen for excessive fossil fuel usage before viable, cost-effective alternatives are available. More on that below. 

in a word: 

Quote:I disagree. The Ukraine invasion by Putin is a direct threat to our freedom and democracy. He has directly threatened the USA by putting his nuclear forces on high alert and declaring economic war. Millennials are not saying they want to go to war. They support the actions of ALL concerned people-- to impose severe sanctions on Russia and Putin and his oligarchs and to send all kinds of aid to Ukraine. This violation of the norms of behavior by nations encourages the many other dictators in this terrible crisis of increasing tyranny around the world to do the same.

It is not a matter of guilt. Many millennials see that other countries care about their citizen's health and their treatment of workers, and that the USA does not. They are exactly right. We are the most backward developed nation in the world by far, and millennials are civically-informed enough to know this, and to take action. This is desire for our nation to succeed, not to fail.

I might be getting off topic here, moving from the realm of intentions/generation characteristics to specific policy, but even a cursory look at Russia's history compared to the US will tell you that's a terrible idea. 
1) Russia is used to authoritarian, top-down decrees on people's behavior in a way the US isn't.
2) They have never had a friendly international neighbor in over 1000 years. The Russian mindset is one of continual mistrust, paranoia and readiness to do battle. 
3) Suffering is in their blood. The Russians have turned stoicism into an artform. Even in the 21st century, "life is pain" is a very real concept to the Russian people, who are used to famines, harsh inland Winters, wars and violent outbreaks. 
4) One thing I will grant millennials: they are much more aware of the deficiencies of American infrastructure than older generations, especially our lack of efficient public transit. It is precisely for this reason that we are perhaps the country in the world most dependent on oil. We're also among the most dependent on satellite technology and internet usage, and any disruption thereof could potentially throw off an entire production line. I would like to see many more advancements in the field of alternative energy. We've made a good bit of progress so far, but until we do, we can't afford $10 gasoline the way public transit-rich Europe can. Timing and specifics are everything.
5) Russia is a strongly patriotic country where you look out for your own at all costs. America is more divided than it has ever been in the nation's history. They have the morale to get through this. We do not. 

Funny.

We are going to need to rediscover our morale. That's what we Americans have done in every 4T. It's time now again.

We are not going to pay $10 for gasoline. If prices are going up, don't blame sanctions. The prices are set by speculators. Pricing has been taken out of the hands of the people and given to these traders, who set prices by expected events, and the companies greatly benefit and profit from letting the traders jack up prices.

The idea that renewables and electric vehicles etc. are not yet sufficiently available is no excuse. Americans voted to make them unavailable. It was never a technical issue; it was a political issue. They need to be made available NOW. We are not dependent on Russian oil. That is not why prices are going up. They are set globally, and expectation of low supply in Europe is pushing traders to jack up the prices. But there are temporary replacements for Russian gas and oil while renewables are being developed. The Middle East can pump more and so can the USA. Europe understands that being dependent on Russian gas needs to end, and renewables replace them. Turning off this Russian spiggot will cripple the Russian economy, force Putin to resign, and force the Russians to find another way to get by than selling gas to Germany.

Neoliberalism has made it impossible for a 4T mindset to function. It's true, electric cars are expensive. So then why don't we give subsidies and tax credits so more middle class and poorer people can buy them? Why is there not a shop on every corner to convert old gas guzzlers to electric? Why don't we invest more in mass transit? Because the free market believers don't want us to raise taxes, that's why. Because government bureaucracy never works, they say. Because government is the problem, they say.

Suffering is in the Russians' blood? Fine, make them suffer. They put this monster in power. It appears the Russians are mostly not interested in this invasion. Putin is not able to summon his country to this battle. The sanctions will hit the oligarchs the hardest. The harder the better. Putin needs to feel enormous pain. The Russians need to be taught a lesson. They need to be stopped by whatever means are necessary. I don't care what their history is. We have our own history to deal with. We need to summon the will to work together again. We do this now or we go out of business and die. We do it in 4Ts. That's the nature of turnings. They are extreme and even dysfunctional. We go from extreme to extreme.

Millennials are a civic generation. This crisis and others of today are bringing out their civic qualities. This is not guilt. This is willingness to understand real-world problems and to act on them.

Quote:

Quote:They are that. But many of us Boomers really felt liberated and elevated by the social and spiritual movements that our generation experienced in our youth. The best of us do, at any rate. Younger generations have a distorted view of those times painted by the media and conservative propaganda. I celebrate and revere those times. Millennials who understand this are blest.

Sorry....what? Left and liberal-leaning journalists outnumber conservative journalists by a ratio of about 4 to 1 (source: professor Gad Saad). In 2022, even the corporations are leaning heavily to the left as far as media is concerned, which is something I would have thought oxymoronic even 10 years ago. Granted, much of what they're actually doing is still quite capitalistic, but the rhetoric most millennials have been exposed to over the last 14 years has been disproportionately left-leaning, not capitalistic, and least of all conservative.

I don't agree; whether journalists are more liberal/left or not, the media owners are conservatives and they run the show. Education has been crippled, including removal of civics classes. The bosses have forced people to put their nose to the grindstone to earn a pittance. They have no ability to think critically. THey have to think about bare necessities. Americans have been largely enchanted and deceived by various false ideologies. Neoliberalism/Reaganomics is top of the list. For 40 years the idea that the government could not solve problems and lower taxes would work instead has become so engrained that nothing constructive has been done in America for 40 years. Millennials and Xers have indeed a distorted and limited view of Awakening culture, and that's not only propaganda against the Awakening-era liberal movements by neoliberalism/reaganomics, but propaganda distorting the liberating culture of boomer youth and silent mid-lifers that awakened us to new life. It is seen instead as merely following the pleasure principle, which of course seeing it that way makes it easy for the commercial capitalists and salesmen to coopt and apply in the advertising.

[JasonBlack]

"They need to be made available NOW"
I would be agreeable to this if it actually became the discourse of conversation (among the public at least. You've probably talked about it at length), but at the moment, everyone is focused on what not to do rather than what to do. We're too focused on "ban this", "stop doing that", "we need to cancel that", with no "do this instead".

[pbrower2a]

(03-11-2022, 12:51 AM)JasonBlack Wrote: Overall I'd say millennials are quite Civic. The one glaring inconsistency is that civic responsibility is all about responsibility to your country. It's not that millennials are an extremely selfish generation (this is an unfair criticism that gets levied on us, but generally, it's not true), but that they often place the greater good of the entire world above their own country and families.

The Millennial Generation (unless its cohorts extends significantly into the Double-Zero Decade)is fully adult. It cannot become anything other than Civic.OK, there has been no shooting war (unless one refers to getting shots to prevent COVID-19). This said, COVID-19 has been a new add-on of mass death, killing about one million Americans. Those resemble deaths on a  scale of a land war on American territory.

I could make the case that the Millennial Generation has met a Crisis with organization and rationality. All that Millennial adults have been unusually slow at is in achieving high office, and then only because of the extended careers of the Silent and early-wave Boomers. When such people are off the scene the openings for Millennial adults will be obvious. It took until 2021 for America to fully elect its first Millennial US Senator.

Quote: The Ukraine fiasco is a good example. Like....really? Now is the time you want to go to war? At precisely the moment where it will cost your own people nothing but sacrifices with no payoff? Fighting moral crusades over gas while your own countrymen are in the worst depression in almost 100 years? Civics are supposed to support their people and their country, yet millennials walk around in perpetual guilt. I get some level of "why can't we have healthcare like Sweden?" or "Why can't we have work weeks like Australia?", but it's gotten to the point where people view their own country with shame and almost...want us to fail. I know not all of them are like this, but that such a large swathe feel this way is, at the very least, unusual for a Civic gen.

Civic generations aren't particularly war-like, but that does not mean that they won't put up a fight. They are the sorts more likely to run from a bar-room brawl...but that is what the Armed Services tell people to do. (OK, I am a Boomer, and I have run from many pointless fights in my time). Millennial adults have no role in promoting the neoliberal economic order that has  made America a low-wage, high-cost country at the expense of young workers who have no stake in the graft.

Quote:On a more positive note, one thing I will say is that they seem to be finally waking up to a kind of "wholesomeness" that American culture has lost touch with since the boom, and, even into their 30s, many of the more intellectually honest ones are open minded to changing their minds and adopting values they've only come to truly understand later in life. The "red pill" community is a good example of this. It's not that everything they believe is good (some of it is kinda disgusting, and I say this as a conservative), but that it started with cringe, immature PUAs from the 2000s and gradually far America grew into a more nuanced understanding of evolutionary psychology and history that has had some more positive offshoots as well (say what you will about horny bastards desperate for sex, it's a desire that lends itself to a kind of pragmatism and adaptability stemming from necessity). Coming full circle, sbarrera made a comment about how being a hero often means being a victim who is sacrificed for the greater good. I would add to that that most heroes don't set out choosing to be heroes. They get forced into it out of necessity, and forced to develop the character and skills necessary to make it through to the other side. It could be what we're seeing is that millennials could indeed be a "heroic" generation, just one comprised of...very late bloomers.

So far America got Donald Trump as President through questionable means and rejected him through honorable means. Trump was a horrible match for Millennial values.Trump appealed to the worst in American politics and showed why electoral success by the worst invariably fails.

[JasonBlack]

Quote:OK, I am a Boomer, and I have run from many pointless fights in my time

More power to you. Patriotism is looking out for your country. Physical combat can be one avenue to do so if the fight is worth it, but 
1) This is the exception rather than the rule. you can also look out for your country by starting a small business, adopting children, planting trees, teaching martial arts...there are a thousand perfectly reasonable ways to do this. The kinds of people who sit around on a forum about historical cycles are not generally going to have the type of temperament which thrives in a warzone (and this includes me).
2) As you imply, most of the time it's pointless, worse than pointless in fact, and even when there is a point, it's often difficult to know in advance.

[Eric the Green]

(03-11-2022, 09:41 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: "They need to be made available NOW"
I would be agreeable to this if it actually became the discourse of conversation (among the public at least. You've probably talked about it at length), but at the moment, everyone is focused on what not to do rather than what to do. We're too focused on "ban this", "stop doing that", "we need to cancel that", with no "do this instead".

Replacing fossil fuels with renewables in response to this Ukraine crisis and its sanctions is being talked about among the public, not just with me. Environmentalists like Bill McKibben are talking about it, and other organizations that send me email are talking about it. The Europeans are talking about it, and President Biden talked about it in his recent speech to the nation. I'm sure it needs to be talked about more. But whether it is or not, by whoever, it IS the need.

[David Horn]

(03-12-2022, 05:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:41 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: "They need to be made available NOW"
I would be agreeable to this if it actually became the discourse of conversation (among the public at least. You've probably talked about it at length), but at the moment, everyone is focused on what not to do rather than what to do. We're too focused on "ban this", "stop doing that", "we need to cancel that", with no "do this instead".

Replacing fossil fuels with renewables in response to this Ukraine crisis and its sanctions is being talked about among the public, not just with me. Environmentalists like Bill McKibben are talking about it, and other organizations that send me email are talking about it. The Europeans are talking about it, and President Biden talked about it in his recent speech to the nation. I'm sure it needs to be talked about more. But whether it is or not, by whoever, it IS the need.

The biggest issue is timing.  We live in a world that expects instant gratification, but that's impossible in most cases.  Yes, I can build an instantly available vicarious experience, but not a real one.  Real takes time, and we're intolerant of delay.  At some point, we, as a society, need to get grounded enough to understand that some things take days, others take weeks and still others, years.  That looks like a Civic project to me.

[beechnut79]

(03-12-2022, 09:34 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-12-2022, 05:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:41 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: "They need to be made available NOW"
I would be agreeable to this if it actually became the discourse of conversation (among the public at least. You've probably talked about it at length), but at the moment, everyone is focused on what not to do rather than what to do. We're too focused on "ban this", "stop doing that", "we need to cancel that", with no "do this instead".

Replacing fossil fuels with renewables in response to this Ukraine crisis and its sanctions is being talked about among the public, not just with me. Environmentalists like Bill McKibben are talking about it, and other organizations that send me email are talking about it. The Europeans are talking about it, and President Biden talked about it in his recent speech to the nation. I'm sure it needs to be talked about more. But whether it is or not, by whoever, it IS the need.

The biggest issue is timing.  We live in a world that expects instant gratification, but that's impossible in most cases.  Yes, I can build an instantly available vicarious experience, but not a real one.  Real takes time, and we're intolerant of delay.  At some point, we, as a society, need to get grounded enough to understand that some things take days, others take weeks and still others, years.  That looks like a Civic project to me.

There is an age old saying relating to this. You may be able to guess what it is. If not I’ll reveal next post.

[JasonBlack]

(03-12-2022, 05:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:41 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: "They need to be made available NOW"
I would be agreeable to this if it actually became the discourse of conversation (among the public at least. You've probably talked about it at length), but at the moment, everyone is focused on what not to do rather than what to do. We're too focused on "ban this", "stop doing that", "we need to cancel that", with no "do this instead".

Replacing fossil fuels with renewables in response to this Ukraine crisis and its sanctions is being talked about among the public, not just with me. Environmentalists like Bill McKibben are talking about it, and other organizations that send me email are talking about it. The Europeans are talking about it, and President Biden talked about it in his recent speech to the nation. I'm sure it needs to be talked about more. But whether it is or not, by whoever, it IS the need.

It's good that people are talking about it, but that doesn't mean we have solutions readily available. I see where people are coming from about the whole modern craze over "instant gratification", but at the same time, when you're talking about whether or not someone is going to be able to afford to commute to work, you really do need an "instant" solution if you don't want to have to double the size of the welfare state.

[linus]

Well, deep respect and humility toward the Ukrainian men and women - young and old (but yeah significantly millennial) - who are defending their country, at great cost to themselves, and their families, and country.

The millennial fighters defending their country are heroes, and will be - and so are the older and younger generations assisted.

[pbrower2a]

Ukraine seems to be doing a remarkably-good job of turning Russian soldiers.

[Eric the Green]

(03-12-2022, 03:00 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(03-12-2022, 05:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:41 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: "They need to be made available NOW"
I would be agreeable to this if it actually became the discourse of conversation (among the public at least. You've probably talked about it at length), but at the moment, everyone is focused on what not to do rather than what to do. We're too focused on "ban this", "stop doing that", "we need to cancel that", with no "do this instead".

Replacing fossil fuels with renewables in response to this Ukraine crisis and its sanctions is being talked about among the public, not just with me. Environmentalists like Bill McKibben are talking about it, and other organizations that send me email are talking about it. The Europeans are talking about it, and President Biden talked about it in his recent speech to the nation. I'm sure it needs to be talked about more. But whether it is or not, by whoever, it IS the need.

It's good that people are talking about it, but that doesn't mean we have solutions readily available. I see where people are coming from about the whole modern craze over "instant gratification", but at the same time, when you're talking about whether or not someone is going to be able to afford to commute to work, you really do need an "instant" solution if you don't want to have to double the size of the welfare state.

We certainly have solutions readily available to the climate change/fossil fuel/sanctions-gas prices crisis. To some extent, they are most easily available now to those who can afford it. But CA had a climate refund for a while that lowered energy costs, and if we can get back to the idea that government help to the poor is a good thing, we could certainly bring poorer people along for this "ride." These solutions, though they are readily available, take a few years to build. Much had been done already under Obama, and will be under Biden if Manchin can get off the dime and vote for the BBBBB. Republicans oppose progress on most things, including this crisis. 

Innovation has been bringing costs down considerably, and will continue to do so. Those who can afford to buy new can buy a new house in CA on which solar panels are required to be built, as well as an electric car. Many people like me live in cities where their energy payment can go exclusively to renewable sources. Blue states have been willing to embrace the solutions, and in some red states solutions are being applied too despite Republican discouragement, because solar and wind power is good business.

[beechnut79]

(03-13-2022, 02:58 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-12-2022, 03:00 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(03-12-2022, 05:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:41 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: "They need to be made available NOW"
I would be agreeable to this if it actually became the discourse of conversation (among the public at least. You've probably talked about it at length), but at the moment, everyone is focused on what not to do rather than what to do. We're too focused on "ban this", "stop doing that", "we need to cancel that", with no "do this instead".

Replacing fossil fuels with renewables in response to this Ukraine crisis and its sanctions is being talked about among the public, not just with me. Environmentalists like Bill McKibben are talking about it, and other organizations that send me email are talking about it. The Europeans are talking about it, and President Biden talked about it in his recent speech to the nation. I'm sure it needs to be talked about more. But whether it is or not, by whoever, it IS the need.

It's good that people are talking about it, but that doesn't mean we have solutions readily available. I see where people are coming from about the whole modern craze over "instant gratification", but at the same time, when you're talking about whether or not someone is going to be able to afford to commute to work, you really do need an "instant" solution if you don't want to have to double the size of the welfare state.

We certainly have solutions readily available to the climate change/fossil fuel/sanctions-gas prices crisis. To some extent, they are most easily available now to those who can afford it. But CA had a climate refund for a while that lowered energy costs, and if we can get back to the idea that government help to the poor is a good thing, we could certainly bring poorer people along for this "ride." These solutions, though they are readily available, take a few years to build. Much had been done already under Obama, and will be under Biden if Manchin can get off the dime and vote for the BBBBB. Republicans oppose progress on most things, including this crisis. 

Innovation has been bringing costs down considerably, and will continue to do so. Those who can afford to buy new can buy a new house in CA on which solar panels are required to be built, as well as an electric car. Many people like me live in cities where their energy payment can go exclusively to renewable sources. Blue states have been willing to embrace the solutions, and in some red states solutions are being applied too despite Republican discouragement, because solar and wind power is good business.

What do the last two Bs in the quintuple B bill stand for? I always though it was simply Build Back Better.

[David Horn]

(03-12-2022, 03:00 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: It's good that people are talking about it, but that doesn't mean we have solutions readily available. I see where people are coming from about the whole modern craze over "instant gratification", but at the same time, when you're talking about whether or not someone is going to be able to afford to commute to work, you really do need an "instant" solution if you don't want to have to double the size of the welfare state.

There is no instant solution to our most serious issues, and most of that is due to the lack of investment over decades. Take the NYC subway system: it's nearly broken -- limping along on infrastructure nearing the end of its life (if not already well past it). There is no finger-snap to fix that, and it's only one of thousands of problems needing attention yesterday. Liberals made fixing things hard, and conservatives were happy doing the nothing they preferred in any case. Well, the bill has arrived. Now what?

[nguyenivy]

(03-13-2022, 09:53 AM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(03-13-2022, 02:58 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-12-2022, 03:00 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(03-12-2022, 05:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:41 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: "They need to be made available NOW"
I would be agreeable to this if it actually became the discourse of conversation (among the public at least. You've probably talked about it at length), but at the moment, everyone is focused on what not to do rather than what to do. We're too focused on "ban this", "stop doing that", "we need to cancel that", with no "do this instead".

Replacing fossil fuels with renewables in response to this Ukraine crisis and its sanctions is being talked about among the public, not just with me. Environmentalists like Bill McKibben are talking about it, and other organizations that send me email are talking about it. The Europeans are talking about it, and President Biden talked about it in his recent speech to the nation. I'm sure it needs to be talked about more. But whether it is or not, by whoever, it IS the need.

It's good that people are talking about it, but that doesn't mean we have solutions readily available. I see where people are coming from about the whole modern craze over "instant gratification", but at the same time, when you're talking about whether or not someone is going to be able to afford to commute to work, you really do need an "instant" solution if you don't want to have to double the size of the welfare state.

We certainly have solutions readily available to the climate change/fossil fuel/sanctions-gas prices crisis. To some extent, they are most easily available now to those who can afford it. But CA had a climate refund for a while that lowered energy costs, and if we can get back to the idea that government help to the poor is a good thing, we could certainly bring poorer people along for this "ride." These solutions, though they are readily available, take a few years to build. Much had been done already under Obama, and will be under Biden if Manchin can get off the dime and vote for the BBBBB. Republicans oppose progress on most things, including this crisis. 

Innovation has been bringing costs down considerably, and will continue to do so. Those who can afford to buy new can buy a new house in CA on which solar panels are required to be built, as well as an electric car. Many people like me live in cities where their energy payment can go exclusively to renewable sources. Blue states have been willing to embrace the solutions, and in some red states solutions are being applied too despite Republican discouragement, because solar and wind power is good business.

What do the last two Bs in the quintuple B bill stand for? I always though it was simply Build Back Better.

Biden's Build Back Better Bill?