The GOP Has Been HIJACKED!

[Kinser79]

(05-19-2016, 11:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: When the aide linked to a pump-and-dump shyster is exposed, then Donald Trump is going to melt down politically.

How many times has this been promised? Enough for The Onion to make a parody of it.

http://www.theonion.com/article/will-be-...nerv-52002

Quote:Here's your nationalist demagogue connected to the worst possible foreigner (an economic criminal!) , someone willing to break up families because an older sibling is an illegal alien and a younger sibling is a US-born citizen... the hypocrisy reeks as badly as a run-over skunk.

I'm going to demand a source for that statement otherwise you're talking out of your ass as usual.

[Kinser79]

(05-20-2016, 10:12 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(05-19-2016, 11:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: When the aide linked to a pump-and-dump shyster is exposed, then Donald Trump is going to melt down politically.

Here's your nationalist demagogue connected to the worst possible foreigner (an economic criminal!)  , someone willing to break up families because an older sibling is an illegal alien and a younger sibling is a US-born citizen... the hypocrisy reeks as badly as a run-over skunk.

I'll step it up a bit. I will go on record accusing at least some of the key enablers and supporters of Trump of being either SVR operatives or false flag, arms' length recruits of the SVR.

Trump may well be a Manchurian Candidate, designed by the Kremlin to impart destruction from within, and, to try and turn the US into the type of "Icebreaker" that Nazi Germany was vis a vis WW2 and the Russian conquests immediately following it.

One thing I will point out, though, is, it is highly unlikely that this op, if it is what I think it may be, could ever be as "successful" (from the Kremlin PoV) as was Nazi Germany in terms of the "Icebreaker" standpoint. The US is (thankfully) not quite as fucked up as Wiemar was and therefore unlikely to become a true Nazi Germany clone. But the heck if the Kremlin would not attempt something here, at this point in time. The SCO know that sleepy America is waking from our slumber. They must strike prior to 2020 or hold indefinitely.

Let me ask you something Alphabet Soup...do your fillings also contain tracking devices for the CIA? This entire post sounds like the kind of conspiracy theories that are dreamed up by paranoid schizophrenics.

Simply put Russia is in no position demographically or economically to empire build, and even if they were they'd be more likely to be worried about taking back the Central Asian Stans and Ukraine and Belarus first. And that doesn't even get into the fact that they should be undergoing a 2T within the next 5-10 years.

That said, it may only be natural that you respond with paranoia because you cannot possibly fathom that the Establishment GOP has failed and the Establishment Dems only offer more gridlock. There simply is no possibility in your mind that Americans have woken up and find that the 'vision' offered by the Establishment is unacceptable.

[pbrower2a]

(05-20-2016, 10:12 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(05-19-2016, 11:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: When the aide linked to a pump-and-dump shyster is exposed, then Donald Trump is going to melt down politically.

Here's your nationalist demagogue connected to the worst possible foreigner (an economic criminal!)  , someone willing to break up families because an older sibling is an illegal alien and a younger sibling is a US-born citizen... the hypocrisy reeks as badly as a run-over skunk.

I'll step it up a bit. I will go on record accusing at least some of the key enablers and supporters of Trump of being either SVR operatives or false flag, arms' length recruits of the SVR.

Trump may well be a Manchurian Candidate, designed by the Kremlin to impart destruction from within, and, to try and turn the US into the type of "Icebreaker" that Nazi Germany was vis a vis WW2 and the Russian conquests immediately following it.

One thing I will point out, though, is, it is highly unlikely that this op, if it is what I think it may be, could ever be as "successful" (from the Kremlin PoV) as was Nazi Germany in terms of the "Icebreaker" standpoint. The US is (thankfully) not quite as fucked up as Wiemar was and therefore unlikely to become a true Nazi Germany clone. But the heck if the Kremlin would not attempt something here, at this point in time. The SCO know that sleepy America is waking from our slumber. They must strike prior to 2020 or hold indefinitely.

I do not trust Vladimir Putin. The SVR is the successor of the KGB, and it is still best described as the mailed fist under the velvet glove. What has changed is that as the SVR it has abandoned its veneer of Marxism in favor of Russian nationalism.

I doubt that Putin wishes to see America as a direct enemy. It would be well enough for Putin's interests if the United States became an Evil Empire that scares its long-time allies into seeking ties to Russia as somehow less objectionable.

The US is less fcuked up than Weimar Germany in part because racist nationalism goes only so far in a country with so many obvious minorities. However different Asians, Latinos, and blacks may be, they know enough to not turn against each other on behalf of white racists. Add to this -- American Jews know how the racist game played the last time, and they are not going to let it happen in America as it did in Germany. It is not enough to be a Model Minority as the German Jews were before 1933; the Model Majority must make clear that the rest of the society is far better off with that minority intact than taking away its assets on the cheap.

Beginning with Karl Rove, ruthless people have found the seams in our Constitutional system and have chosen to exploit those for their own questionable purposes. In the past, those who knew where those seems lay caviled at the thought of exploiting them. Today we have people who see power solely as a game to be played and not as an opportunity to serve Americans.

Part of the necessary conclusion of this Crisis Era is the closing of those seams. Another part is changing our educational system so that it again promotes humanistic values.

[pbrower2a]

(05-20-2016, 10:26 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(05-20-2016, 10:12 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(05-19-2016, 11:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: When the aide linked to a pump-and-dump shyster is exposed, then Donald Trump is going to melt down politically.

Here's your nationalist demagogue connected to the worst possible foreigner (an economic criminal!)  , someone willing to break up families because an older sibling is an illegal alien and a younger sibling is a US-born citizen... the hypocrisy reeks as badly as a run-over skunk.

I'll step it up a bit. I will go on record accusing at least some of the key enablers and supporters of Trump of being either SVR operatives or false flag, arms' length recruits of the SVR.

Trump may well be a Manchurian Candidate, designed by the Kremlin to impart destruction from within, and, to try and turn the US into the type of "Icebreaker" that Nazi Germany was vis a vis WW2 and the Russian conquests immediately following it.

One thing I will point out, though, is, it is highly unlikely that this op, if it is what I think it may be, could ever be as "successful" (from the Kremlin PoV) as was Nazi Germany in terms of the "Icebreaker" standpoint. The US is (thankfully) not quite as fucked up as Wiemar was and therefore unlikely to become a true Nazi Germany clone. But the heck if the Kremlin would not attempt something here, at this point in time. The SCO know that sleepy America is waking from our slumber. They must strike prior to 2020 or hold indefinitely.

Let me ask you something Alphabet Soup...do your fillings also contain tracking devices for the CIA?  This entire post sounds like the kind of conspiracy theories that are dreamed up by paranoid schizophrenics.  

Simply put Russia is in no position demographically or economically to empire build, and even if they were they'd be more likely to be worried about taking back the Central Asian Stans and Ukraine and Belarus first.  And that doesn't even get into the fact that they should be undergoing a 2T within the next 5-10 years.

That said, it may only be natural that you respond with paranoia because you cannot possibly fathom that the Establishment GOP has failed and the Establishment Dems only offer more gridlock.  There simply is no possibility in your mind that Americans have woken up and find that the 'vision' offered by the Establishment is unacceptable.

Some advice: quit talking about people and talk instead about issues and realities. The issue is not X_4AD_84; it is instead whether the Republican politicians can be trusted with American freedom and with peace.

Of course the Establishment GOP has failed because it promised a "Christian and Corporate State" and delivered only the "corporate" part. It cultivated demagoguery and put us at risk of a really-bad demagogue. Establishment Democrats have been more cautious and more modest in their appeals.

America had much less political gridlock when the Democrats had the Presidency, the House, and the Senate, if for only two years.

[Kinser79]

(05-20-2016, 11:47 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Some advice: quit talking about people and talk instead about issues and realities.

I have some advice for you as well. Read what I post before giving me advice.

Quote: The issue is not X_4AD_84;

No, it becomes an issue when he posts some delusional drivel that Trump is a SVR (that is Russian Foreign Intelligence btw) plan. Seriously if there were any evidence for that at all do you think HRC wouldn't pounce on it? Since she hasn't it is only logical to conclude that there is no evidence for that.

Quote: it is instead whether the Republican politicians can be trusted with American freedom and with peace.

Well Trump isn't a politician, he really isn't even a Republican either---so... Anyway we do know that Clinton can't be trusted with anything. Like I said the GOP could run a potted house plant against her and win.

Quote:Of course the Establishment GOP has failed because it promised a "Christian and Corporate State" and delivered only the "corporate" part. It cultivated demagoguery and put us at risk of a really-bad demagogue. Establishment Democrats have been more cautious and more modest in their appeals.

Actually Establishment Democrats are offiering us a corporate state minus the Christian part. The only person that the Dems have that is worth voting for besides Sanders is Warren and she isn't running so....

Considering that the choice is between a Christian Corporate State with the Establishment GOP and a Corporate State with the Establishment Dems I see very little difference. Say what you will, but Trump isn't the Establishment and that is why he frustrates the Establishment so.

Quote:America had much less political gridlock when the Democrats had the Presidency, the House, and the Senate, if for only two years.

Yes, and in those two years instead of passing much needed and necessary reform they decided instead to pass a massive give away to insurance companies instead. If anything that tells me that the Democrats can't be trusted with money, I already know Shillary can't be trusted with Peace what with voting for invading Iraq and all.

[radind]

In my opinion the majority in both parties is now Secular , not Christian. There was a time in history when Christians were the majority , but that time is past.
Cruz tried to make a case for some version of Christianity, but the GOP did not want that this round. I am glad that Cruz is out.
The GOP insider establishment is only concerned about their personal power and is rightfully afraid of Trump.

[pbrower2a]

(05-20-2016, 01:54 PM)radind Wrote: In my opinion the majority in both parties is now Secular , not Christian. There was a time in history when Christians were the majority , but that time is past.
Cruz tried to make a case for some version of Christianity, but the GOP did not want that this round. I am glad that Cruz is out.
The GOP insider establishment is only concerned  about their personal power and is rightfully afraid of Trump.

You have that right.

The GOP Establishment has never shown a willingness to sacrifice elite indulgence on behalf of Fundamentalist Christianity. It has made promises and blamed Democrats for the failure to implement the promises of school prayer, creationism, an abortion ban, and the outlawing of homosexuality.

[Mikebert]

(05-17-2016, 04:33 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: How can anyone praise the brutality of Chinese or Russian leadership?

Cynic Hero was a fascist before Trump made it hip.

[Mikebert]

[Anthony '58]You mean like the near full employment (1.9% jobless rate) we had in 1926 - two years after we essentially cut of all immigration?

[Mike]You mean compared to the 2.4% in 1923, 1.4% in 1919 and 1.7% in 1906?

[Mikebert]

Kinser, it is foolish for you to make the case for Trump here.  It was not that long ago when you were saying a Trump presidency would be so bad it would trigger the revolution.  Now you are saying it would be a good thing.  

Whether or not Trump will be bad for the country exists independently of your opinion.  It does not change just because you change your mind.

[radind]

Will the GOP unite or divide and dissipate?

Quote:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...ty-divide/

This year’s GOP presidential battle isn’t the first – or even the deepest – party divide

… "1912: After former President Theodore Roosevelt failed to wrest the GOP nomination from his hand-picked successor, William H. Taft, he and his supporters bolted the Republicans and formed their own Progressive Party. As the Progressive nominee, Roosevelt performed better than any other third-party candidate in the post-Civil War era – he won 4.1 million popular votes (27.4%) and 88 electoral votes, out-polling Taft in both cases. But the bitter GOP split cleared the way for Woodrow Wilson to become just the second Democrat in 56 years to win the White House.”…

[Kinser79]

(05-20-2016, 02:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(05-20-2016, 01:54 PM)radind Wrote: In my opinion the majority in both parties is now Secular , not Christian. There was a time in history when Christians were the majority , but that time is past.
Cruz tried to make a case for some version of Christianity, but the GOP did not want that this round. I am glad that Cruz is out.
The GOP insider establishment is only concerned  about their personal power and is rightfully afraid of Trump.

You have that right.

The GOP Establishment has never shown a willingness to sacrifice elite indulgence on behalf of Fundamentalist Christianity. It has made promises and blamed Democrats for the failure to implement the promises of school prayer, creationism, an abortion ban, and the outlawing of homosexuality.

School Prayer is already legal. Just because the Teaching Staff and Administration cannot initiate prayer there is no prohibitions on students initiating prayer. We actually do have Muslims where I live yes they do their prayers when required to by their religion without leaving school. Trust me kids do pray on test days.

Creationism is stupid, the very fact that on the human body the play area is right next to the sewage treatment facility only demonstrates that if there was a designer they weren't that intelligent. Never mind the fact that FACT of evolution is the very basis of all modern biology.

Banning abortion would only serve to drive the practice underground. This is potentially dangerous as you'll have people trying to solve that problem with coat hangers or worse having people taking dangerous concoctions of herbal remedies probably without the assistance of an experienced herbalist. Drinking a tincture of penny-royal will make a woman miscarry but taking too much of it will cause her to bleed to death when she does. Abortion is a necessary evil and the Christians are either going to have to learn to tolerate it or perhaps we could give them a state, fence it off and let them fend for themselves.

Outlawing homosexuality would only result in a law that is flagrantly broken and unenforceable. The US just got rid of its sodomy laws, none of them was really enforceable, that being said most people don't think the state has a role in what two consenting adults do in their bedroom. Much like most people don't think the state has a role in a woman's vagina.

(05-20-2016, 02:48 PM)Mikebert Wrote: Kinser, it is foolish for you to make the case for Trump here.  It was not that long ago when you were saying a Trump presidency would be so bad it would trigger the revolution.  Now you are saying it would be a good thing.  

Whether or not Trump will be bad for the country exists independently of your opinion.  It does not change just because you change your mind.

Because I've changed my mind I can say that it would be a good thing. Furthermore, those statements were based on wishful thinking that the material conditions for a revolution were there--they are not and never were there. Also the material basis for Marxism-Leninism is ebbing away. One either changes with the times or gets stuck in the past (like many of the Boomers here who still seem to be stuck in the 1990s).

Trump may be bad for the country, but Hillary is infinitely worse: We know her, she's been in DC since 1992 at least. She has all the worst impulses of the Establishment GOP and all of the worst impulses of the Establishment Dems. The worst people have managed to say about Trump with a shred of evidence is he sometimes says mean things on the internet. I'll take my chances with him.

I recommend reading the article I quoted in the first post of page 4 of this thread.

[radind]

(05-20-2016, 09:17 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(05-20-2016, 02:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(05-20-2016, 01:54 PM)radind Wrote: In my opinion the majority in both parties is now Secular , not Christian. There was a time in history when Christians were the majority , but that time is past.
Cruz tried to make a case for some version of Christianity, but the GOP did not want that this round. I am glad that Cruz is out.
The GOP insider establishment is only concerned  about their personal power and is rightfully afraid of Trump.

You have that right.

The GOP Establishment has never shown a willingness to sacrifice elite indulgence on behalf of Fundamentalist Christianity. It has made promises and blamed Democrats for the failure to implement the promises of school prayer, creationism, an abortion ban, and the outlawing of homosexuality.

School Prayer is already legal.  Just because the Teaching Staff and Administration cannot initiate prayer there is no prohibitions on students initiating prayer.  We actually do have Muslims where I live yes they do their prayers when required to by their religion without leaving school.  Trust me kids do pray on test days.

Creationism is stupid, the very fact that on the human body the play area is right next to the sewage treatment facility only demonstrates that if there was a designer they weren't that intelligent.  Never mind the fact that FACT of evolution is the very basis of all modern biology.

Banning abortion would only serve to drive the practice underground.  This is potentially dangerous as you'll have people trying to solve that problem with coat hangers or worse having people taking dangerous concoctions of herbal remedies probably without the assistance of an experienced herbalist.  Drinking a tincture of penny-royal will make a woman miscarry but taking too much of it will cause her to bleed to death when she does.  Abortion is a necessary evil and the Christians are either going to have to learn to tolerate it or perhaps we could give them a state, fence it off and let them fend for themselves.

Outlawing homosexuality would only result in a law that is flagrantly broken and unenforceable.  The US just got rid of its sodomy laws, none of them was really enforceable, that being said most people don't think the state has a role in what two consenting adults do in their bedroom.  Much like most people don't think the state has a role in a woman's vagina.

(05-20-2016, 02:48 PM)Mikebert Wrote: Kinser, it is foolish for you to make the case for Trump here.  It was not that long ago when you were saying a Trump presidency would be so bad it would trigger the revolution.  Now you are saying it would be a good thing.  

Whether or not Trump will be bad for the country exists independently of your opinion.  It does not change just because you change your mind.

Because I've changed my mind I can say that it would be a good thing.  Furthermore, those statements were based on wishful thinking that the material conditions for a revolution were there--they are not and never were there.  Also the material basis for Marxism-Leninism is ebbing away.  One either changes with the times or gets stuck in the past (like many of the Boomers here who still seem to be stuck in the 1990s).

Trump may be bad for the country, but Hillary is infinitely worse:  We know her, she's been in DC since 1992 at least.  She has all the worst impulses of the Establishment GOP and all of the worst impulses of the Establishment Dems.  The worst people have managed to say about Trump with a shred of evidence is he sometimes says mean things on the internet.  I'll take my chances with him.

I recommend reading the article I quoted in the first post of page 4 of this thread.

 None of this changes my assessment that the country is now primarily a secular society. Christians will feel increasing pressure to adapt or go underground. 
I don't see Trump as religious at all, but  I don't expect him to attack Christianity.
If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.

[Kinser79]

(05-20-2016, 09:50 PM)radind Wrote:  None of this changes my assessment that the country is now primarily a secular society.

Socially the US is primarily secular, and has been primarily secular for a very long time. Part of the benefit of freedom of religion is that the state doesn't impose religious doctrine on anyone and religious institutions do not impose their doctrines on the state. Coupling the church (and by that I mean religion in general) to the state corrupts both.

Quote: Christians will feel increasing pressure to adapt or go underground. 

I doubt that will happen. Christianity is ebbing as a political and social force and has been for a while. The fact of the matter is that the mainline forms of Christianity are not a threat to the state so the state has no reason to be a threat to them.

Quote:I don't see Trump as religious at all, but  I don't expect him to attack Christianity.

He isn't religious at all, and even Sanders who is Jewish wouldn't attack Christianity. They both think the country has bigger problems than the perhaps least offensive of the Abrahamic Religions.

Quote:If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.

HRC is a threat to human values, period. Full Stop.

[radind]

(05-20-2016, 10:05 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(05-20-2016, 09:50 PM)radind Wrote:  None of this changes my assessment that the country is now primarily a secular society.

Socially the US is primarily secular, and has been primarily secular for a very long time.  Part of the benefit of freedom of religion is that the state doesn't impose religious doctrine on anyone and religious institutions do not impose their doctrines on the state.  Coupling the church (and by that I mean religion in general) to the state corrupts both.

Quote: Christians will feel increasing pressure to adapt or go underground. 

I doubt that will happen.   Christianity is ebbing as a political and social force and has been for a while.  The fact of the matter is that the mainline forms of Christianity are not a threat to the state so the state has no reason to be a threat to them.

Quote:I don't see Trump as religious at all, but  I don't expect him to attack Christianity.

He isn't religious at all, and even Sanders who is Jewish wouldn't attack Christianity.  They both think the country has bigger problems than the perhaps least offensive of the Abrahamic Religions.

Quote:If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.

HRC is a threat to human values, period.  Full Stop.

What the secular state does depends on whether or not the state enforces their secular values on others in the same way they seem to fear  that religious groups would do if given the opportunity.  It seems to me that the government is increasingly forcing compliance with their secular views. For the majority  who are secular ,this seems OK. 
I am concerned about too much imposition of  government power and would prefer a much smaller government in general.

[Cynic Hero '86]

We need actual reform, Trump is our best hope for that since the DNC is determined to steal the primary from Sanders.

[TnT]

(05-20-2016, 09:50 PM)radind Wrote: If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.

Let's see, Christian values, what would those be?

1. Self-righteousness
2. Sanctimony
3. A never-ending desire to make OTHER PEOPLE adhere to standards they don't live up to.
4. A multiple millenium history of bloodshed for those who wish to be left alone.
5. Intolerance of other "religions."
6. A belief system that simply staggers the intellect.

Well, that's probably enough.  And yes, it would be nice if there could be increasing pressure against the above.

[Kinser79]

(05-21-2016, 06:48 PM)TnT Wrote:

(05-20-2016, 09:50 PM)radind Wrote: If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.

Let's see, Christian values, what would those be?

1. Self-righteousness
2. Sanctimony
3. A never-ending desire to make OTHER PEOPLE adhere to standards they don't live up to.
4. A multiple millenium history of bloodshed for those who wish to be left alone.
5. Intolerance of other "religions."
6. A belief system that simply staggers the intellect.

Well, that's probably enough.  And yes, it would be nice if there could be increasing pressure against the above.

You do realize that this also describes the other two Abrahamic religions right. Of the three Christianity is perhaps the least offensive.

[radind]

People build false strawmen and proceed to burn them down, nothing accomplished.

[radind]

The article below makes a case that the current secular majority essentially operates much the same as a religion with its own dogma. I know that the secular group will not agree with this concept but the operational effect is still there, in my opinion

Quote:http://www.the-american-interest.com/201...-religion/
The Rise of Secular Religion

… "American liberalism, it is often remarked, amounts to a secular religion: it has its own sacred texts and taboos, Crusades and Inquisitions. The political correctness that undergirds it, meanwhile, can be traced back to the past century’s liberal Protestantism..”…

… "Joseph Bottum, by contrast, examines post-Protestant secular religion with empathy, and contends that it gained force and staying power by recasting the old Mainline Protestantism in the form of catechistic worldly categories: anti-racism, anti-gender discrimination, anti-inequality, and so forth. What sustains the heirs of the now-defunct Protestant consensus, he concludes, is a sense of the sacred, but one that seeks the security of personal salvation through assuming the right stance on social and political issues. Precisely because the new secular religion permeates into the pores of everyday life, it sustains the certitude of salvation and a self-perpetuating spiritual aura. Secularism has succeeded on religious terms. That is an uncommon way of understanding the issue, and a powerful one”… "his new book a new and invaluable contribution to our understanding of America’s frame of mind. Just what is a secular religion, and how does it shape the spiritual lives of its adherents? Bottum deftly peels the layers off the onion of liberal thinking to reveal its Protestant provenance and inherited religious sensibility.”…

… “Neither the Evangelicals nor the Catholics, either separately or in their uneasy, occasional alliances, had the wherewithal to replace the post-Protestant center at the peak of its cultural authority, … “…Joseph Bottum’s treatise so disturbing.  He does not see a way back. …   It is a work of great importance that should be read, re-read and debated by the literate public, believers and non-believers alike. ”