Brexit Results

[Eric the Green]

(06-24-2016, 09:49 AM)Drunken Scouser Wrote: The rights and wrongs of this to one side for a second, this is definitely the start of the 4T in the UK. The generations are perfectly aligned for it. By my judgement, the oldest UK Millennials are reaching their mid 20s, the oldest Xers their late 40s and the oldest Boomers their late 60s.

The start was the same as here; 2008. These events are just the fallout from the 2008 crash; the Arab Spring/civil war in Syria and the global recession.

[Odin]

This is going to be an absolute disaster for the UK.

(06-24-2016, 08:45 AM)Bronco80 Wrote: Wow.  The 4T marches on...

OK, fellow S&H readers, what do we make of the generational breakdown here, if anything?

British War Babies and Boomers better hope that that their kids are merciful and don't metaphorically leave them to die on an ice floe.

[Odin]

This stuff genuinely terrifies me, the world wars have shown that Europeans need to have their nationalist stupidity kept under control by the "Eurocrats" they despise or else we will have World War 3.

[Mikebert]

Looks like it is going to be just a blip - no significant impact, according to the "wisdom of the market".    Of course the market could be wrong (but that would be heresy!).

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-24-2016, 01:45 PM)Odin Wrote: This stuff genuinely terrifies me, the world wars have shown that Europeans need to have their nationalist stupidity kept under control by the "Eurocrats" they despise or else we will have World War 3.

How quaint.  And... I suppose you'd just love to bring back Caesar  via DNA replication, eh?

WW3?  Oh yeah that.  You'll get that my pretty if the Neocons keep poking the bear.  Which generation gets drafted to be front and center of nuclear oblivion?  Take a guess my fiend and start glowing.

Ragnarök Wrote:After the long and gruesome war between God, Humans,
and Demons...
Scarred during the dangerous moments in battle, and avoiding total destruction altogether, the Humans, God and Demons entered a long truce

The 1000 years of fragile and forged peace...

In the land of Midgard, the existence of peace eventually led the humans to erase their memories of the scars and hardships of the wars in the past. Not remembering the faults of the past, culture was spreading throughout the land along with selfishness, corruption, and arrogance.

Then one day, strange occurrences started happening, breaking the balance that once existed in Midgard. There came a strange howl from the boundaries that divided the humans, God, and demons; creatures began attacking; increasing earthquakes and hail - and...
The mysterious legend of demons...
As the fragile peace began to fall apart, stories about the parts of Ymir, protecting the peace, began to spread among the adventurers. Forgetting the true nature of it, people set out to seek each of the pieces for their own selfishness, and the wealth that would come with it...

http://www.playragnarok.com/gameguide/storyline.aspx





Play this in y'alls buds while playing Ragnarök on y'alls smell phones.  Y'all will like it, guaranteed



This is to train for the actual event.!.

[Ragnarök_62]

Eric the Green[/quote Wrote:  don't think I agree. TTIP confers many benefits. A trade deal between countries that are on the same level, is not bad. The TPP is bad because it lowers standards and wages for the nation at the higher level (the USA). Tariffs protect a nation from the harmful results of trading with nations at a different level. Europe and the USA have better standards and wages than Vietnam, Malaysia, etc.

OK, I'll be nice and agree with you.  As the proud owner of Exxon-Mobil and Monsanto stawks, I have full faith and confidence that such trade agreements will reward me handsomely.  

Some shareholder intelligence to assess the benefits to Rags from such agreements:


http://www.dw.com/en/greenpeace-ttip-mea...a-19231603
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/02...-worldwide

So, you see Eric, while I oppose such things on matter of principle, I'm fully willing to double down on share purchases thereof to feather my nest is mass quantities.  So, a mere tossing of principles out the window is A-OK with me.
Capice?

Quote:Globalism is only wrong if it is controlled by a few big corporate powers.

uhhhh yeah.  Those trade agreements seal the deal.

Quote: Otherwise, it's just the fact of life today. Hiding from it is wrong.

I know and I hedge my bets accordingly.

Quote:Nations are basically just lines on a map. We already have a party that includes a USIP; it's called Republican under Donald Trump.

I'd venture to say any ABC candidate qualifies in his/her own way.

Quote: A unified Europe in which individual nations still have a lot of control over themselves is the goal here.

Oh, but if any of those trade agreements passes, that goes down the drain. Did you manage to read that letter from Greece I posted?

Quote:It prevents war and boosts the economy of a group of nations that lead the world socially and politically. The freedom of movement and commerce was cool; it was liberation from centuries of barriers.

Could be. However I'm more interested in how Rags gets even more feathers for his nest! I'm more interested in the dispersal of GMO's into Europe myself. Go Monsanto, baby.

Quote:On balance the EU is (or maybe I should say was?) more beneficial than it was oppressive by big banks and corporations.

Have you ever heard of "bail in" ?

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexcha...pean-banks

"All your deposits are, belong to us".

Quote: I say mend it, don't end it. I hope Britain learns its lesson and applies for re-entry in a few years, if the union still exists by then. The economic community dating from 1957 probably still will. But by the time it re-applies, England could be shorn of its "united kingdom." The price of this "rebellion" by old geezers will be two broken unions.

Have you considered that perhaps the era of integration has ended and the era of dissolution has started.
Nothing in this universe is permanent.

Quote:The generational breakdown clearly shows that young people thought the union benefited them and was not "the establishment."

With age comes wisdom, man.

Quote:It was just like here in the USA; older folks are afraid and old-fashioned; deceived by the idea that their identity comes from their nationality or their race. Balderdash; it does not. But the angry old white folks won this election, because they turn out more to vote. Sounds familiar to me; very familiar. The old are keeping the young tied down to the past.

LOL! Rag's identity = US citizen.  From my experience at work, methinks the young are tied down to Ishits.

Quote:Scotland may as well grab a tube of lube if they want to join the EU. Their economy will get strip mined just like a whole lot of other "lesser regions".

Quote:Greece needs to reform itself. It can't blame Germany for imposing austerity; Germany has limits on what it can give to the other nations in trouble because of the recession CAUSED BY Republicans and neo-liberal Democrats in the USA.

1. It's the ECB that's doing the bait and switch.  Cankles Merkel of course a driving force.
2. Pssst.  Eurocrats are the high priests of Neo-liberalism man.  The sooner Eric does a bit of research , the smarter he'll be.

Quote:Things are going so badly now, maybe I'll just do what Pete and Roger recommend: "take a glass of that light brown ale, and a purple pill."

Not really, if TSHTF, my gold stocks will do nicely.

Lyrics Wrote:Money makes me crazy, money makes me insane
Diamonds, silver, gold, and precious steel
I want it all, it's mine to claim
I hold my hands out, I take it all

I want a fistful, fistful of diamonds
I live for the glory and fame
I want a fistful, fistful of diamonds
The millions are calling my name

Fortune come here to me, it's power that rules the game
Seduction of silver and LAWLESS greed
I love it all, I damn the shame
The root of all evil can hear me call

I want a fistful, fistful of diamonds
I live for the glory and fame
I want a fistful, fistful of diamonds
The millions are calling my name

Solitaire, come cast a spell of magic
The smell of green I stack my dollars high
Intoxicating, my mind's wreaking havoc
A famous face, I get what you can't buy

I want a fistful, fistful of diamonds
I live for the glory and fame
I want a fistful, fistful of diamonds
The millions are calling my name

So, either way , it's all awesome.  

TPP, TPIP =  LAWLESS greed.

[Odin]

Turning and turning in the widening gyre

The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand.

The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert

A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,

Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again; but now I know

That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

-W. B Yeats

[pbrower2a]

(06-24-2016, 12:04 PM)The Wonkette Wrote:

(06-24-2016, 11:30 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-24-2016, 08:45 AM)Bronco80 Wrote: Wow.  The 4T marches on...

OK, fellow S&H readers, what do we make of the generational breakdown here, if anything?

Uh, what's the picture supposed to be?  I just see a square with white shapes in it.

Figures showing the breakdown of Brexit votes by age:

18-24 -- 25% favoring out
25-49 -- 44%
50-64 -- 56%
65+   -- 61%

18-24 ... (born after 1991) they see the benefits of the EU.
25-49 ... Millennial and all but the earliest X  (1966-1991)... EU membership 'pragmatic'?
50-64 ... Middle-to-late Boom, very early X (1951-1966)... people still disparaging "The Continent"?
65+, born in 1951 or earlier, mostly Silent and early-to-middle Bioom... they generally don't see the benefit of the EU.

[Odin]

We Have Entered a New Political Era, One in which popular support for the core institutions of liberal democracy can no longer be taken for granted.

Quote:Britain has Brexited. The consequences of Thursday’s vote are momentous. But it is even more important for what it represents: Today, we are entering a new political era—one in which popular support for the core institutions of liberal democracy can no longer be taken for granted.

The practical consequences of Britain’s departure from the European Union are terrifying. Millions of European citizens living in Britain woke up to the disorienting realization that they may soon lose the right to stay in a country they had made their home. The same goes for British citizens living in France, or Spain, or Germany. If politicians fail to ensure that some amount of freedom of movement between Britain and the rest of Europe is preserved, the disruption to the lives of ordinary people will be on a scale practically unprecedented in peacetime. But even if some reasonably humane solution is worked out, the emotional toll exacted by the uncertainty they face will be serious.

At the same time, Brexit will also speed up the continent’s centrifugal forces: England is turning inward. Scotland may well leave the United Kingdom before the decade is over. The uneasy peace in Northern Ireland is being put to a serious, and wholly unnecessary, test. In the coming years, copycat referenda on EU membership are likely to be held in countries at the European core, such as the Netherlands. There can no longer be any doubt that the European Union is in an existential crisis.

Europe’s weakness harms the West as a whole. As the continent lurches from crisis to crisis and sees the gradual rise of populist strongmen on its own shores, it is getting increasingly tempted to make nice with authoritarian leaders in Turkey, Russia, and China. It’s little wonder that, outside Britain, the only triumphant voices to be heard Friday morning are those of Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Vladimir Putin, and the propaganda outlets of ISIS.

These points alone would suffice to make the outcome of Thursday’s referendum the most significant vote in a generation. But its true importance is even bigger than that: The decision of the British electorate to leave the European Union constitutes the most significant rebellion of the citizens of an affluent liberal democracy against their political system since the end of World War II. It signals the beginning of an era in which we can no longer be assured that the citizens of countries from Sweden to the United States will reliably choose liberal democracy over far-right populism and xenophobia.

There are plenty of reasons to be dissatisfied with the European Union as it is currently constituted. The EU leaves the most important decisions to an unelected council of the ministers of its member states, giving ordinary Europeans little control. And countries such as Greece are paying a massive—and seemingly indefinite—price for the faulty construction of the single currency zone. Though I strongly believe that the human and political consequences of the U.K.’s departure from the European Union made a “Leave” vote unconscionable, I have some sympathy for those who advocated Brexit on the basis of sovereignty or in the hope of building a more robust welfare state.

As the polls show, however, those were not the reasons that most supporters of Brexit had in mind. In fact, voters on both sides of the divide had virtually indistinguishable views on such questions as whether “capitalism” was good or bad. But Brexiters had starkly more negative views on issues such as “immigration,” “multiculturalism,” and “social liberalism.” The vote to leave the European Union was not a vote against Europe’s financial elites. It was a vote against civil rights, against ethnic minorities, against immigrants, and against refugees.

This also puts a rather more sinister cast on all the talk of sovereignty. Voters cared some about whether decisions will be taken in London or Brussels in the future. They cared much more about whether checks and balances would continue to stop the people’s righteous anger from expressing itself. What they really want is the freedom to make discriminatory laws against the immigrants and minorities whom the chief proponents of Brexit demonized throughout the campaign.

As my recent research shows, British voters are far from alone in turning against the limits on the popular will that constitute an important element of liberal democracy. Across most countries in North America and Western Europe, voters have grown deeply dissatisfied with the political class. For a rapidly growing number, this dissatisfaction with particular leaders has started to transform into an actual rejection of democratic institutions. Across North America and Western Europe, the number of citizens who say that it is important to live in a democracy is shrinking. At the same time, the number of citizens who are open to making their countries more authoritarian is rising.

This trend is especially striking in the United States. Two decades ago, 1 in 16 Americans believed that Army rule would be a good way to run the country. Today, it is 1 in 6. The picture is even bleaker among the young and affluent: Support for military rule in this group has increased nearly sixfold, from 6 percent to 35 percent.

Obviously, Brexit won’t lead to military rule. Nor is the Pentagon about to assume power in America. Opinion polls need to be interpreted carefully and with a healthy dose of skepticism. But when they show such a stark shift in opinion, it is safe to conclude that something big is going on. That big thing, I fear, is that the citizens of liberal democracies have grown so disenchanted with the status quo that they are willing to put their faith in populist strongmen and radical political experiments.

Two decades ago, far-right populists were electorally insignificant in most of North America and Western Europe. Then, people such as Jörg Haider in Austria, Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, and Marine Le Pen in France celebrated a remarkable string of political successes, establishing their movements as a firm part of their political systems and making their countries less hospitable for immigrants and other minority groups. In countries such as the United States, France, or Sweden, they are now within striking distance of outright majorities. Thursday’s referendum proves that there is no magic firewall that is sure to stop them.

It is worth remembering that David Cameron only called this referendum because he, along with the vast majority of Britain’s political class, was convinced that Brexit would never happen. It is also worth remembering that, 24 hours ago, most polls seemed to point to a victory for the forces of stability.

This should serve as a stark warning to people who are confident that Donald Trump could never be elected president. If he manages to turn the election into a referendum on the status quo, he has every chance of winning—especially since all the evidence suggests that the citizens of liberal democracies have never held the status quo in as much contempt as they do now. If we blindly trust the polls that seem to foretell his defeat, we might be in for an even ruder awakening come November.

35% of well-off Millennials support a military dictatorship? WTF? That is absolutely terrifying.

[Eric the Green]

Interesting that after exiting, the English want to "negotiate" so they can keep some of the benefits of joining the union. I agree with some European officials who say, you voted out, you're out! Britain should get none of the benefits and should suffer all the dislocations. That might discourage other would-be leavers too.

Quote:35% of well-off Millennials support a military dictatorship? WTF? That is absolutely terrifying.

It's surprising. I guess our Cynic Hero is not as all alone in his opinions as we thought.

Of course, calling far right nationalists "populists" is a grave insult to the populists. The original and genuine populists were those who championed the rights and equal opportunity for the population, as opposed to the wealthy and powerful few. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are populists. Donald Trump is definitely NOT. Nowadays the word is used to mean any political movement that's popular. As opposed to what, I wonder? And it means nothing, since ANY movement is therefore "populist" if it gets a lot of support from the population.

[Eric the Green]

(06-24-2016, 06:27 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: uhhhh yeah.  Those trade agreements seal the deal.

No, it depends on which countries are involved, and what they agree to.

Quote:I'd venture to say any ABC candidate qualifies in his/her own way.

And maybe C too, in her own way.

Quote:Oh, but if any of those trade agreements passes, that goes down the drain. Did you manage to read that letter from Greece I posted?

Probably. But no, it depends.

Quote:Could be. However I'm more interested in how Rags gets even more feathers for his nest! I'm more interested in the dispersal of GMO's into Europe myself. Go Monsanto, baby.

What's best for all is best for me.

Quote:Have you considered that perhaps the era of integration has ended and the era of dissolution has started.
Nothing in this universe is permanent.

That's not how it's supposed to be, except maybe for a couple of decades. The long-term trend remains integration. That's the nature of the age we live in. Planets in Aries now tend toward the same direction as in the 1860s. So I understand that; Aries is individualistic. But the age we live in since the 1890s is still globalizing and collectivizing of wealth and power.

Quote:(me) The generational breakdown clearly shows that young people thought the union benefited them and was not "the establishment."

(Rags) With age comes wisdom, man.

Election results in the USA and now in England tell a far different story. NO. And it wasn't true in the sixties either. NO, youth is often wiser.

Yes, it's what I say, and I am correct.

Quote:LOL! Rag's identity = US citizen.  From my experience at work, methinks the young are tied down to Ishits.

I don't remember what Ishits are (i-phones and stuff?), but your identity Rags is yours individually. It is your passions and your unique talents, not what group you belong to. That is just what authority tells you your identity is. Your true identity belongs to you, not the state, religion, race, etc. Identifying as an American or a white boy is just being an authoritarian; in popular parlance, it's fascistic.

Quote:2. Pssst.  Eurocrats are the high priests of Neo-liberalism man.  The sooner Eric does a bit of research , the smarter he'll be.

Neo-liberalism is powered by the Reaganuts here in America. Europe has been far more advanced and socialistic. The right-wing in Europe has been equivalent to center-left here. But NOW we have this nationalist, xenophobic wave. I thought that the Arab Spring refugee wave was a passing thing that Europeans would react to for a while, but get over once it passed. There has been a degree of openness already to immigrants such as Turks and Africans, but it's this wave from Syria that has tipped Europe into xenophobia. It was a lot for them to handle all at once, and there's no end in sight. I'm not real clear on who the immigrants or refugees were specifically that the English are reacting against, but the Arab Spring wave seems to have tipped the balance.

But if the English voted against freedom of movement, then they can't have their cake and eat it too. It will have to end. Europeans in England will have to go home and English in Europe will have to come home. Travel and trade will be just as hard to do with Britain now as it is with Russia or China. You'll need a visa to travel there and a green card to live there. You'll need to show your papers when you get off the chunnel train. England is no longer part of Europe; it's a stuffy, haughty, snobbish and fearful island and should be treated as such. I think the USA and England should not be the close allies we have been, too. I say, fuck 'em.

Quote:TPP, TPIP =  LAWLESS greed.

NO, they are two different deals. But England is now in the back of the priority list. (How do you spell that q word that Obama used?)

[Eric the Green]

Dear Avaazers,

Today is a painful and shocking day for Britain, for Europe, and for our world.

But, in one way, it may have been what we needed.

The progress we have built in our world of openness, tolerance, and interconnection is not something we can take for granted, it must be continuously, vigilantly sustained. The institutions we build to connect us must live in our hearts and minds, not just as bureaucratically functional tools. We need an ethic, spirit and culture of human connection and unity to keep the dark forces of our past - nationalism, racism - at bay.

Much of the campaign for Britain to remain in the EU was fought on fear and dry self-interest - how much money someone stood to lose or make. Our community beautifully brought love and unity to the equation, but it was not enough, this time, to win. A couple of fear-mongering newspaper editors and opportunist politicians helped persuade 51.9% of the public to blame the EU for what ailed them.

But we must not falter now - this is one battle on a larger tapestry and the forces of fear and division are rising - from other nationalisms destroying Europe, to Donald Trump threatening generations of progress on racism and unity in the US, to much more. We must make Brexit a call to arms for our movement, a spark that reignites our passion to defend and renew the project of human peace and unity that our parents and grandparents wisely advanced from their painful experience.

The youth of Britain backed Europe by massive margins, as they also oppose Trump and his ilk. The future is with us, if we can carry the banner long enough to hand it off to the next generations. Let's gather our courage and commitment to fight for the world we all dream of. Click here to share a message of inspiration, solidarity and hope for the road ahead:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/love_will_wi...4f3df87e9d

Over the past weeks our community rose and let its light shine in a beautiful way -- hundreds of thousands of us around Europe met the politics of fear and division with love and unity -- donating for ads and actions that covered the front pages of the media, coming out for love on the streets, calling to remove the editor from a newspaper spewing fear, and making thousands of phone calls to citizens to vote Remain.


Many UK voters - especially older voters in rural areas of England - were persuaded that Europe and the immigration it brought was threatening their communities, freedom and prosperity. Some just wanted any change to the status quo. Much of this had to do with a section of Britain's unscrupulous media who turned themselves into naked propagandists for Brexit. But our broader movement also needs to do better on immigration - ensuring that policy choices about levels of immigration are backed up by hearts and minds. This is a weakness in many countries that movements of fear and division are keen to exploit.

New and serious battles are coming fast -- Trump in the US, Le Pen in France, and Farage in the UK.

But we are a rising and powerful movement. We will meet each of these crusaders trying to drive us apart with our love and determination. And to win we are going to have to get even bigger and better to address the spreading viral cocktail of fear, nationalism and racism.

It is out of these darkest moments that new dawns are born. Jo Cox MP, who was assassinated last week, said "we are far more united and have far more in common than that which divides us." We must now listen to each other, and not let the fear-mongering forces that killed her triumph. To honour her let’s commit to work together to carry her banner of love.

Click to share your own message of unity and power with others. Let’s refuel with solidarity and love for the fights ahead, and show that nothing will stop us.

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/love_will_wi...4f3df87e9d

With hope and gratitude,

Ricken, Alice, Emma, Christoph, Luis, Iain, Mia, Melanie, Fatima, Ben, Allison, Rewan, Adam, Dan and the whole Avaaz team.

[Dan '82]

Turnout by age group

8-24: 36%
25-34: 58%
35-44: 72%
45-54: 75%
55-64: 81%
65+: 83%

An important caveat: the younger voters who did vote are probably skewed towards upper end of the socico-economic ladder and support for remain was also positively correlated with socico-economic status.

[Dan '82]

(06-25-2016, 11:59 AM)Odin Wrote: We Have Entered a New Political Era, One in which popular support for the core institutions of liberal democracy can no longer be taken for granted.

Quote:Britain has Brexited. The consequences of Thursday’s vote are momentous. But it is even more important for what it represents: Today, we are entering a new political era—one in which popular support for the core institutions of liberal democracy can no longer be taken for granted.

The practical consequences of Britain’s departure from the European Union are terrifying. Millions of European citizens living in Britain woke up to the disorienting realization that they may soon lose the right to stay in a country they had made their home. The same goes for British citizens living in France, or Spain, or Germany. If politicians fail to ensure that some amount of freedom of movement between Britain and the rest of Europe is preserved, the disruption to the lives of ordinary people will be on a scale practically unprecedented in peacetime. But even if some reasonably humane solution is worked out, the emotional toll exacted by the uncertainty they face will be serious.

At the same time, Brexit will also speed up the continent’s centrifugal forces: England is turning inward. Scotland may well leave the United Kingdom before the decade is over. The uneasy peace in Northern Ireland is being put to a serious, and wholly unnecessary, test. In the coming years, copycat referenda on EU membership are likely to be held in countries at the European core, such as the Netherlands. There can no longer be any doubt that the European Union is in an existential crisis.

Europe’s weakness harms the West as a whole. As the continent lurches from crisis to crisis and sees the gradual rise of populist strongmen on its own shores, it is getting increasingly tempted to make nice with authoritarian leaders in Turkey, Russia, and China. It’s little wonder that, outside Britain, the only triumphant voices to be heard Friday morning are those of Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Vladimir Putin, and the propaganda outlets of ISIS.

These points alone would suffice to make the outcome of Thursday’s referendum the most significant vote in a generation. But its true importance is even bigger than that: The decision of the British electorate to leave the European Union constitutes the most significant rebellion of the citizens of an affluent liberal democracy against their political system since the end of World War II. It signals the beginning of an era in which we can no longer be assured that the citizens of countries from Sweden to the United States will reliably choose liberal democracy over far-right populism and xenophobia.

There are plenty of reasons to be dissatisfied with the European Union as it is currently constituted. The EU leaves the most important decisions to an unelected council of the ministers of its member states, giving ordinary Europeans little control. And countries such as Greece are paying a massive—and seemingly indefinite—price for the faulty construction of the single currency zone. Though I strongly believe that the human and political consequences of the U.K.’s departure from the European Union made a “Leave” vote unconscionable, I have some sympathy for those who advocated Brexit on the basis of sovereignty or in the hope of building a more robust welfare state.

As the polls show, however, those were not the reasons that most supporters of Brexit had in mind. In fact, voters on both sides of the divide had virtually indistinguishable views on such questions as whether “capitalism” was good or bad. But Brexiters had starkly more negative views on issues such as “immigration,” “multiculturalism,” and “social liberalism.” The vote to leave the European Union was not a vote against Europe’s financial elites. It was a vote against civil rights, against ethnic minorities, against immigrants, and against refugees.

This also puts a rather more sinister cast on all the talk of sovereignty. Voters cared some about whether decisions will be taken in London or Brussels in the future. They cared much more about whether checks and balances would continue to stop the people’s righteous anger from expressing itself. What they really want is the freedom to make discriminatory laws against the immigrants and minorities whom the chief proponents of Brexit demonized throughout the campaign.

As my recent research shows, British voters are far from alone in turning against the limits on the popular will that constitute an important element of liberal democracy. Across most countries in North America and Western Europe, voters have grown deeply dissatisfied with the political class. For a rapidly growing number, this dissatisfaction with particular leaders has started to transform into an actual rejection of democratic institutions. Across North America and Western Europe, the number of citizens who say that it is important to live in a democracy is shrinking. At the same time, the number of citizens who are open to making their countries more authoritarian is rising.

This trend is especially striking in the United States. Two decades ago, 1 in 16 Americans believed that Army rule would be a good way to run the country. Today, it is 1 in 6. The picture is even bleaker among the young and affluent: Support for military rule in this group has increased nearly sixfold, from 6 percent to 35 percent.

Obviously, Brexit won’t lead to military rule. Nor is the Pentagon about to assume power in America. Opinion polls need to be interpreted carefully and with a healthy dose of skepticism. But when they show such a stark shift in opinion, it is safe to conclude that something big is going on. That big thing, I fear, is that the citizens of liberal democracies have grown so disenchanted with the status quo that they are willing to put their faith in populist strongmen and radical political experiments.

Two decades ago, far-right populists were electorally insignificant in most of North America and Western Europe. Then, people such as Jörg Haider in Austria, Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, and Marine Le Pen in France celebrated a remarkable string of political successes, establishing their movements as a firm part of their political systems and making their countries less hospitable for immigrants and other minority groups. In countries such as the United States, France, or Sweden, they are now within striking distance of outright majorities. Thursday’s referendum proves that there is no magic firewall that is sure to stop them.

It is worth remembering that David Cameron only called this referendum because he, along with the vast majority of Britain’s political class, was convinced that Brexit would never happen. It is also worth remembering that, 24 hours ago, most polls seemed to point to a victory for the forces of stability.

This should serve as a stark warning to people who are confident that Donald Trump could never be elected president. If he manages to turn the election into a referendum on the status quo, he has every chance of winning—especially since all the evidence suggests that the citizens of liberal democracies have never held the status quo in as much contempt as they do now. If we blindly trust the polls that seem to foretell his defeat, we might be in for an even ruder awakening come November.

35% of well-off Millennials support a military dictatorship? WTF? That is absolutely terrifying.

As a nationalist, left wing populist this type of response strikes me as overwrought for a few reasons
 
1)     Military dictatorship is not the only alternative to democracy, unelected unaccountable bureaucracy is another alternative and it’s been the form that’s actually been successful in last few decades.  And the opposition to the EU and much of the current populism is a response to that.
2)     It is absurd to claim that the only alternative to multiculturalism, globalism and open borders is fascism. 
3)     I think the globalist; multi-cultural socialism is bound to fail.  Socialism broadly defined requires a high level of social trust and cohesion in order to work while multiculturalism and globalism work best with high levels of individualism.  I view a strong sense of nationalism is an important factor in allowing the masses the challenge the elites.  The few successful left wing parties such as the Scottish National Party and Sinn Féin are also nationalist and populist.

[Dan '82]

Britain’s EU Problem is a London Problem

Quote:Yesterday the UK voted to leave the European Union after thirty years of a halting, sometimes noble, often messy experiment in international cooperation. In my circles—professional, well-educated, Cambridge and London—the principal reaction was incredulity. How could this happen? Who could want this? A natural reaction. In my electoral district, 75 percent voted to Remain. In the hip parts of London where my daughter lives, a similar result. But a look at the electoral map showed (inevitably, given that a substantial majority of England—though only a narrow majority of the UK—voted to Leave) that huge swathes of England outside of London voted by similar proportions to Leave—the poorer areas on the East and South coasts, depressed former industrial districts in the North, though also more prosperous parts of the West Country and the Midlands.

In shorthand, Britain’s EU problem is a London problem. London, a young, thriving, creative, cosmopolitan city, seems the model multicultural community, a great European capital. But it is also the home of all of Britain’s elites—the economic elites of “the City” (London’s Wall Street, international rather than European), a nearly hereditary professional caste of lawyers, journalists, publicists, and intellectuals, an increasingly hereditary caste of politicians, tight coteries of cultural movers-and-shakers richly sponsored by multinational corporations. It’s as if Hollywood, Wall Street, the Beltway, and the hipper neighborhoods of New York and San Francisco had all been mashed together. This has proved to be a toxic combination...



https://www.dissentmagazine.org/blog/bri...on-problem

[Ragnarök_62]

Eric The Green Wrote:No, it depends on which countries are involved, and what they agree to.

I've been discussing the TPIP trade agreements in my discussion of Brexit.  That's the only one.
Look at this again, please.

Wiki Wrote:The contents of the competing proposals as well as of the reports on TTIP negotiations are classified from the public,[6] but after a proposed draft was leaked in March 2014,[7] the European Commission launched a public consultation on a limited set of clauses and in January 2015 published parts of an overview;[8] and subsequently increased security over its secrecy.[6]
[/url]
The [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission]European Commission says that the TTIP would boost the EU's economy by €120 billion, the US economy by €90 billion and the rest of the world by €100 billion.[9] According to Foreign Affairs, TTIP aims to "liberalise one-third of global trade" that, they argue, would create millions of new paid jobs.[10] However, a Guardian article by Dean Baker of the US thinktank Center for Economic and Policy Research[11][12][13] argued that the economic benefits per household would be relatively small,[14] and according to a European Parliament report, impacts on labour conditions range from job gains to job losses, depending on economic model and assumptions used for predictions.[15]

1. It's classified and somebody leaked some goodies on it.  Read the above, it's the EU that's trying to ram this piece of shit in secret.  That is not democracy, that's bought and paid for corporatism.

2. It's like NAFTA and it will never, ever create jobs.

3. The EU was more interested in increased security over its secrecy.  That means the EU is a coven of bought and paid for witches.

Rags Wrote:I'd venture to say any ABC candidate qualifies in his/her own way.

Eric The Green Wrote:And maybe C too, in her own way.

You might want to take a gander of Cankles Clinton's big donor list.  I know I did.  That way I know which stocks to research.  Just look at this jewel, it's HUUUGE.  

Rest assured, if neocon hawk Clinton get's elected, I will be watching defense stocks like a hawk!

* hawk award for Rags

Quote:Oh, but if any of those trade agreements passes, that goes down the drain. Did you manage to read that letter from Greece I posted?

Eric Wrote: Probably. But no, it depends.

Here's the short edition.  The Greek people have been burned by the bailouts. They are upholding their end on enduring austerity.  However any and all bailout funds go the Greece's creditors and they do nothing to reduce Greece's over all debt load.  Since the problem [ debt load] is not getting solved with the EU's so called solution, Rags proposes the Iceland nuclear option, just default and be done with it.  Greece shouldn't give a rat's ass if it causes some EU zone banks to implode.

Quote:

Rags Wrote:Could be. However I'm more interested in how Rags gets even more feathers for his nest! I'm more interested in the dispersal of GMO's into Europe myself. Go Monsanto, baby.

Eric Wrote:What's best for all is best for me.

The way I see it, lots of fat cats and elected officials try to justify "what's best for me" with weasel words.  I prefer to be upfront and just come out and say it bluntly.  Of course Eric should recheck horscope thingies and realize Tauri have an attraction to pecuniary stuff.  

Quote:Have you considered that perhaps the era of integration has ended and the era of dissolution has started.
Nothing in this universe is permanent.

Quote:That's not how it's supposed to be, except maybe for a couple of decades. The long-term trend remains integration. That's the nature of the age we live in. Planets in Aries now tend toward the same direction as in the 1860s. So I understand that; Aries is individualistic. But the age we live in since the 1890s is still globalizing and collectivizing of wealth and power.

After Aries comes Taurus.  That means the whole world will than devote itself to pecuniary goals.  I can hardly wait.

Quote:(me) The generational breakdown clearly shows that young people thought the union benefited them and was not "the establishment."

(Rags) With age comes wisdom, man.

Quote:Election results in the USA and now in England tell a far different story. NO. And it wasn't true in the sixties either. NO, youth is often wiser.

Nope, older folks see that TPIP train coming down the track. The UK got off that train before the inevitable
train wreck.


[/quote]

Quote:Yes, it's what I say, and I am correct.

Whatever.

Quote:LOL! Rag's identity = US citizen.  From my experience at work, methinks the young are tied down to Ishits.

Quote:I don't remember what Ishits are (i-phones and stuff?)

Very good.   Ishits are my generic term for  overpriced electronic gizmos.  Some people buy upgrades which are not necessary.   That's an example of herd behavior.

Quote:, but your identity Rags is yours individually. It is your passions and your unique talents, not what group you belong to. That is just what authority tells you your identity is.

Well, I have to pick a tribe.  I can't choose Swedish because I don't live in Sweden and I can't choose Cherokee because that's incomplete.

Quote:Your true identity belongs to you, not the state, religion, race, etc. Identifying as an American or a white boy is just being an authoritarian; in popular parlance, it's fascistic.

No it isn't.  I just go along to get along on what's  on my birth certificate.  White boy is also incomplete of course.

Quote:2. Pssst.  Eurocrats are the high priests of Neo-liberalism man.  The sooner Eric does a bit of research , the smarter he'll be.

Eric Wrote:Neo-liberalism is powered by the Reaganuts here in America. Europe has been far more advanced and socialistic. The right-wing in Europe has been equivalent to center-left here. But NOW we have this nationalist, xenophobic wave. I thought that the Arab Spring refugee wave was a passing thing that Europeans would react to for a while, but get over once it passed.

1. Has Eric considered Kulturkampf ?
2. Both Bill Clinton in the 1990's [remember the repeal of Glass Steagall? ] and Hillary are both neo liberals.
To paraphrase Nixon, both the Democratic party and the Republican party are all neo-liberals now.  Yes, there are some exceptions like Sanders and emergant shift/realignment segment of Republicans.
http://www.investors.com/politics/editor...ade-party/
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/04/de...ill-117066

So, it's a 4th turning and the eagerly awaited realignment is nigh.  The names may remain the same, but the policies will change.

Quote:There has been a degree of openness already to immigrants such as Turks and Africans, but it's this wave from Syria that has tipped Europe into xenophobia.

There have been rapes you know..
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/346059

So, it is for good reason that resentment is growing.  Feminists are gonna have a hard time.  Either they defend women in Europe AND demand border controls or they discredit themselves.  There is no other way.  That's a nice feature of 4th turnings.  There arise situations where  choices and consequences are demanded.


It was a lot for them to handle all at once, and there's no end in sight. I'm not real clear on who the immigrants or refugees were specifically that the English are reacting against, but the Arab Spring wave seems to have tipped the balance.

Quote:But if the English voted against freedom of movement, then they can't have their cake and eat it too.

The folks who voted Brexit are too damn poor to move anyhow. No loss there.

Quote:It will have to end. Europeans in England will have to go home and English in Europe will have to come home.

Maybe H1-B similars?  I'd like all H1-B's here to go away.  1-way tickets can be awesome at times.

Quote:Travel and trade will be just as hard to do with Britain now as it is with Russia or China. You'll need a visa to travel there and a green card to live there. You'll need to show your papers when you get off the chunnel train.

I've been to Stavanger Norway.  It's no sweat to get a damn passport.  You don't need papers if you have a passport.  I think that's all that will be required.  Norway has no special stuff for US citizens.  Swedes yes.

Quote:England is no longer part of Europe; it's a stuffy, haughty, snobbish and fearful island and should be treated as such. I think the USA and England should not be the close allies we have been, too. I say, fuck 'em.

Awwwww, Eric's disappointed in historical Anglo-Saxon behavior. We're gonna be allies due to historical tribal ties.
Canada, Australia, US, UK, and New Zealand have long lived tribal and historical ties.  Tribal ties are also the main reason our dodos at the state department and defense department can't figure out the Middle East.

Quote:TPP, TPIP =  LAWLESS greed.

Quote:NO, they are two different deals. But England is now in the back of the priority list. (How do you spell that q word that Obama used?)

1. Yes, different deals.
2. Both are huge bull markets for Monsanto and Exxon Mobil though.  Perhaps Eric can feather his nest ... just like Rags.  I can't decide if said trade agreements get ratified, but I can make investment choices based on ratification or non ratification.

[Odin]

Pro-Brexit campaigners were regurgitating Nazi propaganda:

[Odin]

(06-25-2016, 04:29 PM)Dan Wrote: As a nationalist, left wing populist this type of response strikes me as overwrought for a few reasons
 
1)     Military dictatorship is not the only alternative to democracy, unelected unaccountable bureaucracy is another alternative and it’s been the form that’s actually been successful in last few decades.  And the opposition to the EU and much of the current populism is a response to that.
2)     It is absurd to claim that the only alternative to multiculturalism, globalism and open borders is fascism. 
3)     I think the globalist; multi-cultural socialism is bound to fail.  Socialism broadly defined requires a high level of social trust and cohesion in order to work while multiculturalism and globalism work best with high levels of individualism.  I view a strong sense of nationalism is an important factor in allowing the masses the challenge the elites.  The few successful left wing parties such as the Scottish National Party and Sinn Féin are also nationalist and populist.

#1: That is the fault of the national governments rejecting a more democratic EU because they see it as a threat to their sovereignty.

#2: The answer to Capitalist Globalism is Socialist Worker Globalism, not xenophobia and fear of the Other.

#3: You are making the mistake of thinking that the Ethno-Linguistic Nation-State is the only proper source of "social trust and cohesion".

[Odin]

Also, to think that Brexit will improve the condition of working class Brits is wishful thinking. Once the UK is out of the EU it is no longer bound by EU regulations protecting workers, labor unions, and consumers, and there is going to have to be a sea change in UK politics before the UK government itself will give a shit about protecting workers.

[Odin]

Relevant blurb I ran into: