The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-04-2020, 11:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You're associated with an agenda set by elites and racists. I've run into/ seen more racist minorities associated with progressive politics than KKK and Neo Nazi's these days. Nope, it's not a good thing to ignore these problems and let these problems get even worse and become a major problem for Democrats. I don't tolerate racism that exists on the progressive side and I don't bow down or submit to their form of pressure either. So, who are you helping?

The twin cities are an odd case, a center for Black Lives Matter. While I haven’t encountered the minority blacks who are reacting to the killer cops, I am somewhat sympathetic with their cause and the long history of white racist abuse. I am not surprised that there has been a reaction. When your people are being killed by official forces, is it possible to over react? I personally sympathize, but that does not make me want to project racist thought patterns on all whites.

Still, the Black Lives Matter isn’t a driving force behind Democratic politics these days. Oh, the Democrats will show sympathy and pick up votes as a result of the killer cops, as if this makes up for the state sponsored deadly racism. Still, it is hardly the same degree of influence that the Republicans have with their pro racist and elitist policies.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-04-2020, 05:36 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 04:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: … I want to shake the typical person from the middle of the country and demand he wake up, to ask who he is really helping.

Excellent point, though a futile one.  I'm afraid the media programming on that side of the divide has been more than just successful.  It's created a true faux reality.  I live in an area where this magical thinking is the norm, and it's freaky to say the least.  Then again, I'm used to it, and don't return-fire when things are said that are undeniably wrong.  A word of warning: you don't have to drink the Kool-Aid to have it affect you.

I see what you mean.  Some of the people in the middle of the country are apt to be hopeless.

[pbrower2a]

(02-04-2020, 11:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 04:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 03:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The SJW's, the globalists/so called global citizens  and the Quasi Socialists are the ones with the most influence and causing the most  trouble for the Democratic side these days.

My three basic problems with the conservative movement are a habitual alliance between the establishment Republicans and the Elites, the racist element, and the small government theory that we should not work on things that need to be done.  I have not exactly been shy to denounce all three.  I note you are not an advocate of the racist or elites elements.  The Tea Party is an attempt to free the conservative base from elites.  I noted a prior post where you admitted it is not a good thing to let problems sit around and get worse.  You have denounced racism a number of times.

In theory, we should be on the same side.

My problem is that many in the middle of the country pursue the agenda set by the elites and racists.  While in many ways the Tea Party is ahead of the Democrats in fighting elite influence, still the elite influence is sending jobs abroad to the profit of a few, and that in fighting the minorities the racists ended up hurting the poor of the Xers and Millennials.  If you didn’t start saving way back when the influence of the Progressive Era was still strong, you find the fruit of your labor going to the elites instead of a retirement account.

I want to shake the typical person from the middle of the country and demand he wake up, to ask who he is really helping.

You're associated with an agenda set by elites and racists. I've run into/ seen more racist minorities associated with progressive politics than KKK and Neo Nazi's these days. Nope, it's not a good thing to ignore these problems and let these problems get even worse and become a major problem for Democrats. I don't tolerate racism that exists on the progressive side and I don't bow down or submit to their form of pressure either. So, who are you helping?

As a general racists are equal-opportunity... haters. Haters in minority groups would hate people in other minority groups. Let's put it this way: when it comes to the three most visible minorities -- blacks, Hispanics, and Asians -- they seem to be in lockstep on politics despite huge cultural differences between them. 

Contempt for Trump policies is not anti-white racism any more than contempt for the Mafia is anti-white (or specifically anti-Italian) or contempt for MS-13 is anti-Hispanic. People are right to show disdain for vile rogues. The most anti-Mafia people that you will ever meet are Italian-Americans. I can't say the same about Nazis and German-Americans, as it is in bad form to co-opt the suffering of others for selfish reasons.
 
From what I know of the progressive side, it might be anti-capitalist, but definitely not anti-white. White people are welcome to share in the struggle against the fascistic plutocracy that Donald Trump seeks to create. Both fascism and plutocracy are inconsistent with the democratic tradition. I'll be satisfied with "capitalism with a human face", which is far better than the inhuman monstrosity we now have.  

Note well: there is no one American tradition. Ask the First Peoples. Ask Hispanics in the Southwest whether they think that their traditions are less valid than some WASP tradition. Note well: the Hispanics can assimilate WASPs into their culture. The culture of the descendants of black slaves in America formed here. Irish-Americans picked and chose here. 

We do not have so much traditionalists and radical rejections of tradition; we have multiple traditions in place. In America, no lasting tradition is more valid than another. It can be one's own tradition as a birthright or even a choice. Maybe some subcultures are not valid, especially criminal subcultures. But if it is strictly ethnicity, any ethnicity can have a winning culture in America.

[David Horn]

(02-04-2020, 08:14 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 05:36 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 04:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: … I want to shake the typical person from the middle of the country and demand he wake up, to ask who he is really helping.

Excellent point, though a futile one.  I'm afraid the media programming on that side of the divide has been more than just successful.  It's created a true faux reality.  I live in an area where this magical thinking is the norm, and it's freaky to say the least.  Then again, I'm used to it, and don't return-fire when things are said that are undeniably wrong.  A word of warning: you don't have to drink the Kool-Aid to have it affect you.

I did start early enough that the influence of the progressive era was still strong.  I am not effected personally.  I just see the disaster to the Republicans coming when it all breaks down.  As the Great Republican said, “You can’t fool all of the people, all of the time.”

Another good point.  The GOP has made political manipulation into an art form.  They've suppressed voting in so many ways, it's hard to keep score.  Now, they're trying to overload the judiciary with judges who will look the other way when they do it.  But at some point, demographics kicks in, and the blow back will not be pretty.  I would like to be around to see it, but I suspect it's still a ways away.  If we get Trump again or, worse, a milquetoast Democrat who gets rolled again by the Republicans, this could go on for another decade … or even longer.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-05-2020, 11:30 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 08:14 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 05:36 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 04:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: … I want to shake the typical person from the middle of the country and demand he wake up, to ask who he is really helping.

Excellent point, though a futile one.  I'm afraid the media programming on that side of the divide has been more than just successful.  It's created a true faux reality.  I live in an area where this magical thinking is the norm, and it's freaky to say the least.  Then again, I'm used to it, and don't return-fire when things are said that are undeniably wrong.  A word of warning: you don't have to drink the Kool-Aid to have it affect you.

I did start early enough that the influence of the progressive era was still strong.  I am not effected personally.  I just see the disaster to the Republicans coming when it all breaks down.  As the Great Republican said, “You can’t fool all of the people, all of the time.”

Another good point.  The GOP has made political manipulation into an art form.  They've suppressed voting in so many ways, it's hard to keep score.  Now, they're trying to overload the judiciary with judges who will look the other way when they do it.  But at some point, demographics kicks in, and the blow back will not be pretty.  I would like to be around to see it, but I suspect it's still a ways away.  If we get Trump again or, worse, a milquetoast Democrat who gets rolled again by the Republicans, this could go on for another decade … or even longer.

I agree, the eventual racial blow back won't be pretty for the petty small minded liberal Democrats living in the cities.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-05-2020, 04:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 11:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You're associated with an agenda set by elites and racists. I've run into/ seen more racist minorities associated with progressive politics than KKK and Neo Nazi's these days. Nope, it's not a good thing to ignore these problems and let these problems get even worse and become a major problem for Democrats. I don't tolerate racism that exists on the progressive side and I don't bow down or submit to their form of pressure either. So, who are you helping?

The twin cities are an odd case, a center for Black Lives Matter.  While I haven’t encountered the minority blacks who are reacting to the killer cops, I am somewhat sympathetic with their cause and the long history of white racist abuse.  I am not surprised that there has been a reaction.    When your people are being killed by official forces, is it possible to over react?  I personally sympathize, but that does not make me want to project racist thought patterns on all whites.

Still, the Black Lives Matter isn’t a driving force behind Democratic politics these days.  Oh, the Democrats will show sympathy and pick up votes as a result of the killer cops, as if this makes up for the state sponsored deadly racism.  Still, it is hardly the same degree of influence that the Republicans have with their pro racist and elitist policies.

Black Lives Matter didn't have much legs/ support beyond Minneapolis/St.Paul. The killer cops? Listen you old fascist pig hater, you shouldn't demonize those who are paid to serve and protect you.

[beechnut79]

(02-05-2020, 08:45 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 11:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 04:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 03:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The SJW's, the globalists/so called global citizens  and the Quasi Socialists are the ones with the most influence and causing the most  trouble for the Democratic side these days.

My three basic problems with the conservative movement are a habitual alliance between the establishment Republicans and the Elites, the racist element, and the small government theory that we should not work on things that need to be done.  I have not exactly been shy to denounce all three.  I note you are not an advocate of the racist or elites elements.  The Tea Party is an attempt to free the conservative base from elites.  I noted a prior post where you admitted it is not a good thing to let problems sit around and get worse.  You have denounced racism a number of times.

In theory, we should be on the same side.

My problem is that many in the middle of the country pursue the agenda set by the elites and racists.  While in many ways the Tea Party is ahead of the Democrats in fighting elite influence, still the elite influence is sending jobs abroad to the profit of a few, and that in fighting the minorities the racists ended up hurting the poor of the Xers and Millennials.  If you didn’t start saving way back when the influence of the Progressive Era was still strong, you find the fruit of your labor going to the elites instead of a retirement account.

I want to shake the typical person from the middle of the country and demand he wake up, to ask who he is really helping.

You're associated with an agenda set by elites and racists. I've run into/ seen more racist minorities associated with progressive politics than KKK and Neo Nazi's these days. Nope, it's not a good thing to ignore these problems and let these problems get even worse and become a major problem for Democrats. I don't tolerate racism that exists on the progressive side and I don't bow down or submit to their form of pressure either. So, who are you helping?

As a general racists are equal-opportunity... haters. Haters in minority groups would hate people in other minority groups. Let's put it this way: when it comes to the three most visible minorities -- blacks, Hispanics, and Asians -- they seem to be in lockstep on politics despite huge cultural differences between them. 

Contempt for Trump policies is not anti-white racism any more than contempt for the Mafia is anti-white (or specifically anti-Italian) or contempt for MS-13 is anti-Hispanic. People are right to show disdain for vile rogues. The most anti-Mafia people that you will ever meet are Italian-Americans. I can't say the same about Nazis and German-Americans, as it is in bad form to co-opt the suffering of others for selfish reasons.
 
From what I know of the progressive side, it might be anti-capitalist, but definitely not anti-white. White people are welcome to share in the struggle against the fascistic plutocracy that Donald Trump seeks to create. Both fascism and plutocracy are inconsistent with the democratic tradition. I'll be satisfied with "capitalism with a human face", which is far better than the inhuman monstrosity we now have.  

Note well: there is no one American tradition. Ask the First Peoples. Ask Hispanics in the Southwest whether they think that their traditions are less valid than some WASP tradition. Note well: the Hispanics can assimilate WASPs into their culture. The culture of the descendants of black slaves in America formed here. Irish-Americans picked and chose here. 

We do not have so much traditionalists and radical rejections of tradition; we have multiple traditions in place. In America, no lasting tradition is more valid than another. It can be one's own tradition as a birthright or even a choice. Maybe some subcultures are not valid, especially criminal subcultures. But if it is strictly ethnicity, any ethnicity can have a winning culture in America.

Capitalism with a human face? Isn’t that what we had during the first quarter century following WWII? Then the mote lunatic fringe of capitalism began taking over. Slowly at first, then accelerating from the Reagan years onward.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-05-2020, 02:17 PM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 08:45 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 11:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 04:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 03:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The SJW's, the globalists/so called global citizens  and the Quasi Socialists are the ones with the most influence and causing the most  trouble for the Democratic side these days.

My three basic problems with the conservative movement are a habitual alliance between the establishment Republicans and the Elites, the racist element, and the small government theory that we should not work on things that need to be done.  I have not exactly been shy to denounce all three.  I note you are not an advocate of the racist or elites elements.  The Tea Party is an attempt to free the conservative base from elites.  I noted a prior post where you admitted it is not a good thing to let problems sit around and get worse.  You have denounced racism a number of times.

In theory, we should be on the same side.

My problem is that many in the middle of the country pursue the agenda set by the elites and racists.  While in many ways the Tea Party is ahead of the Democrats in fighting elite influence, still the elite influence is sending jobs abroad to the profit of a few, and that in fighting the minorities the racists ended up hurting the poor of the Xers and Millennials.  If you didn’t start saving way back when the influence of the Progressive Era was still strong, you find the fruit of your labor going to the elites instead of a retirement account.

I want to shake the typical person from the middle of the country and demand he wake up, to ask who he is really helping.

You're associated with an agenda set by elites and racists. I've run into/ seen more racist minorities associated with progressive politics than KKK and Neo Nazi's these days. Nope, it's not a good thing to ignore these problems and let these problems get even worse and become a major problem for Democrats. I don't tolerate racism that exists on the progressive side and I don't bow down or submit to their form of pressure either. So, who are you helping?

As a general racists are equal-opportunity... haters. Haters in minority groups would hate people in other minority groups. Let's put it this way: when it comes to the three most visible minorities -- blacks, Hispanics, and Asians -- they seem to be in lockstep on politics despite huge cultural differences between them. 

Contempt for Trump policies is not anti-white racism any more than contempt for the Mafia is anti-white (or specifically anti-Italian) or contempt for MS-13 is anti-Hispanic. People are right to show disdain for vile rogues. The most anti-Mafia people that you will ever meet are Italian-Americans. I can't say the same about Nazis and German-Americans, as it is in bad form to co-opt the suffering of others for selfish reasons.
 
From what I know of the progressive side, it might be anti-capitalist, but definitely not anti-white. White people are welcome to share in the struggle against the fascistic plutocracy that Donald Trump seeks to create. Both fascism and plutocracy are inconsistent with the democratic tradition. I'll be satisfied with "capitalism with a human face", which is far better than the inhuman monstrosity we now have.  

Note well: there is no one American tradition. Ask the First Peoples. Ask Hispanics in the Southwest whether they think that their traditions are less valid than some WASP tradition. Note well: the Hispanics can assimilate WASPs into their culture. The culture of the descendants of black slaves in America formed here. Irish-Americans picked and chose here. 

We do not have so much traditionalists and radical rejections of tradition; we have multiple traditions in place. In America, no lasting tradition is more valid than another. It can be one's own tradition as a birthright or even a choice. Maybe some subcultures are not valid, especially criminal subcultures. But if it is strictly ethnicity, any ethnicity can have a winning culture in America.

Capitalism with a human face? Isn’t that what we had during the first quarter century following WWII? Then the mote lunatic fringe of capitalism began taking over. Slowly at first, then accelerating from the Reagan years onward.

No, we had legal segregation and women largely reserved to the sole role of bearing and raising children and an economic system largely controlled by a group of American industrialists, Democratic politicians and labor unions.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-05-2020, 02:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Black Lives Matter didn't have much legs/ support beyond Minneapolis/St.Paul. The killer cops? Listen you old fascist pig hater, you shouldn't demonize those who are paid to serve and protect you.

There are good cops, and there are bad cops.  I got caught up in a doozy of a case that involved some bad ones.  (Would you believe that my tenant has a copy of her own death certificate?  She is known in certain circles as the dead lady?)  There are enough good cops (and good lawyers, and good judges, and good medical people) that we seem at the moment to have the upper hand.  

But, anyway, you cannot make me believe now that both types do not exist, and the bad cops cannot and should not be fought.  You just have to be patient. Anything involving lawyers seems to take years. You have to have enough money to lawyer up. The bad lawyer didn't plan on me - a former engineer with no family or expensive hobbies - on opposing lawyers, on the DNA test that proved who the undead lady was.

I discovered that justice was expensive, only to find out that this was half of a proverb in legal circles. The other half is that injustice costs a little more.

But resisting can be done.  Mostly, the undead lady is too stubborn to pick on.  The real necessity in cases like this is that you have to be too stubborn to quit.  Stepping over the legal line leaves you really really vulnerable, and really really desperate. We have reached the really desperate phase. My advice to the undead lady was that she had them by the balls. Pull and twist.

Some people really are demons.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-05-2020, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: No, we had legal segregation and women largely reserved to the sole role of bearing and raising children and an economic system largely controlled by a group of American industrialists, Democratic politicians and labor unions.

You have it mostly backwards.  The Republicans have always been the party of the elite, of the robber barons.  Back in the progressive era, the unions were at their peak, and there was enough lack of labor that the corporations had to offer significant benefits.  In the conservative era, jobs were sent abroad, automation cut jobs, union laws were weakened, and benefits were eliminated by a lot of jobs being made part time.  All this was done mostly by conservatives working through the Republican Party for the advantage of the elites and corporations.  This resulted among other things in the tremendous division of wealth.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-05-2020, 04:27 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: No, we had legal segregation and women largely reserved to the sole role of bearing and raising children and an economic system largely controlled by a group of American industrialists, Democratic politicians and labor unions.

You have it mostly backwards.  The Republicans have always been the party of the elite, of the robber barons.  Back in the progressive era, the unions were at their peak, and there was enough lack of labor that the corporations had to offer significant benefits.  In the conservative era, jobs were sent abroad, automation cut jobs, union laws were weakened, and benefits were eliminated by a lot of jobs being made part time.  All this was done mostly by conservatives working through the Republican Party for the advantage of the elites and corporations.  This resulted among other things in the tremendous division of wealth.

Yes, yes, yes, the Republicans are the bad guys and the Democrats are the good guys and that's the way it's been and will always be in your opinion. One can assume that your partisan view will never change. Lets see, the Democrats have completely lost the support of half the country right now.Plus, there is a portion of the country that no longer identifies with the Democratic party and see's it as being no better than the Republican party. Do you understand this? Do you understand the negative impact that reality is going to eventually have on the liberal/Democratic side down the road? I assume that you have way more wealth than the typical welfare recipient. Is that a problem for you or me? It's not a problem for me or us for that matter. I assume that you have way more wealth than the illegal immigrant or the poor refuge does or the illegal immigrants kid or their American born kid too. Is that my problem or more your problem these days too. Why is Trump doing what some conservative Democrat should have been doing instead of a liberal Democrat who was elected to do the opposite and maintain the elitist status quo and why are liberal Democrats so pissed that we are rejecting them and basically slitting their throats politically.

[Marypoza]

(02-05-2020, 05:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 04:27 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: No, we had legal segregation and women largely reserved to the sole role of bearing and raising children and an economic system largely controlled by a group of American industrialists, Democratic politicians and labor unions.

You have it mostly backwards.  The Republicans have always been the party of the elite, of the robber barons.  Back in the progressive era, the unions were at their peak, and there was enough lack of labor that the corporations had to offer significant benefits.  In the conservative era, jobs were sent abroad, automation cut jobs, union laws were weakened, and benefits were eliminated by a lot of jobs being made part time.  All this was done mostly by conservatives working through the Republican Party for the advantage of the elites and corporations.  This resulted among other things in the tremendous division of wealth.

Yes, yes, yes, the Republicans are the bad guys and the Democrats are the good guys and that's the way it's been and will always be in your opinion. One can assume that your partisan view will never change. Lets see, the Democrats have completely lost the support of half the country right now.Plus, there is a portion of the country that no longer identifies with the Democratic party and see's it as being no better than the Democratic party. Do you understand this? Do you understand the negative impact that reality is going to eventually have on the liberal/Democratic side down the road? I assume that you have way more wealth than the typical welfare recipient. Is that a problem for you or me? It's not a problem for me or us for that matter. I assume that you have way more wealth than the illegal immigrant or the poor refuge does or the illegal immigrants kid or their American born kid too. Is that my problem or more your problem these days too. Why is Trump doing what some conservative Democrat should have been doing instead of a liberal Democrat who was elected to do the opposite and maintain the elitist status quo and why are liberal Democrats so pissed that we are rejecting them and basically slitting their throats politically.

-- they're both corrupt

[Classic-Xer]

(02-05-2020, 04:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 02:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Black Lives Matter didn't have much legs/ support beyond Minneapolis/St.Paul. The killer cops? Listen you old fascist pig hater, you shouldn't demonize those who are paid to serve and protect you.

There are good cops, and there are bad cops.  I got caught up in a doozy of a case that involved some bad ones.  (Would you believe that my tenant has a copy of her own death certificate?  She is known in certain circles as the dead lady?)  There are enough good cops (and good lawyers, and good judges, and good medical people) that we seem at the moment to have the upper hand.  

But, anyway, you cannot make me believe now that both types do not exist, and the bad cops cannot and should not be fought.  You just have to be patient.  Anything involving lawyers seems to take years.  You have to have enough money to lawyer up.  The bad lawyer didn't plan on me, a former engineer with no family or expensive hobbies, on opposing lawyers, on the DNA test that proved who the undead lady was.  

I discovered that justice was expensive, only to find out that this was half of a proverb in legal circles.  The other half is that injustice costs a little more.  

But resisting can be done.  Mostly, the undead lady is too stubborn to pick on.  The real necessity in cases like this is that you have to be too stubborn to quit.  

Some people really are demons.

Yes, there are good cops and bad cops and the systems do a pretty good job at sorting them out. I found it odd that so many so called liberals were so quick to ignore the American right of due process altogether and convict and label cops as killers/murderers for shooting some black person back in the day. Man, we experienced a string of cop related shootings and a string of cop related murders while on duty going on at the same time. We heard a lot about the negro related shootings by cops but didn't hear much about the cops who were being murdered/gunned down at the same time. I suppose the liberal media that was driving black lives matter at the time and the city politicians who took their side without knowing any facts will most likely be held accountable/liable for their deaths.

[pbrower2a]

(02-05-2020, 02:17 PM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 08:45 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 11:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 04:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 03:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The SJW's, the globalists/so called global citizens  and the Quasi Socialists are the ones with the most influence and causing the most  trouble for the Democratic side these days.

My three basic problems with the conservative movement are a habitual alliance between the establishment Republicans and the Elites, the racist element, and the small government theory that we should not work on things that need to be done.  I have not exactly been shy to denounce all three.  I note you are not an advocate of the racist or elites elements.  The Tea Party is an attempt to free the conservative base from elites.  I noted a prior post where you admitted it is not a good thing to let problems sit around and get worse.  You have denounced racism a number of times.

In theory, we should be on the same side.

My problem is that many in the middle of the country pursue the agenda set by the elites and racists.  While in many ways the Tea Party is ahead of the Democrats in fighting elite influence, still the elite influence is sending jobs abroad to the profit of a few, and that in fighting the minorities the racists ended up hurting the poor of the Xers and Millennials.  If you didn’t start saving way back when the influence of the Progressive Era was still strong, you find the fruit of your labor going to the elites instead of a retirement account.

I want to shake the typical person from the middle of the country and demand he wake up, to ask who he is really helping.

You're associated with an agenda set by elites and racists. I've run into/ seen more racist minorities associated with progressive politics than KKK and Neo Nazi's these days. Nope, it's not a good thing to ignore these problems and let these problems get even worse and become a major problem for Democrats. I don't tolerate racism that exists on the progressive side and I don't bow down or submit to their form of pressure either. So, who are you helping?

As a general racists are equal-opportunity... haters. Haters in minority groups would hate people in other minority groups. Let's put it this way: when it comes to the three most visible minorities -- blacks, Hispanics, and Asians -- they seem to be in lockstep on politics despite huge cultural differences between them. 

Contempt for Trump policies is not anti-white racism any more than contempt for the Mafia is anti-white (or specifically anti-Italian) or contempt for MS-13 is anti-Hispanic. People are right to show disdain for vile rogues. The most anti-Mafia people that you will ever meet are Italian-Americans. I can't say the same about Nazis and German-Americans, as it is in bad form to co-opt the suffering of others for selfish reasons.
 
From what I know of the progressive side, it might be anti-capitalist, but definitely not anti-white. White people are welcome to share in the struggle against the fascistic plutocracy that Donald Trump seeks to create. Both fascism and plutocracy are inconsistent with the democratic tradition. I'll be satisfied with "capitalism with a human face", which is far better than the inhuman monstrosity we now have.  

Note well: there is no one American tradition. Ask the First Peoples. Ask Hispanics in the Southwest whether they think that their traditions are less valid than some WASP tradition. Note well: the Hispanics can assimilate WASPs into their culture. The culture of the descendants of black slaves in America formed here. Irish-Americans picked and chose here. 

We do not have so much traditionalists and radical rejections of tradition; we have multiple traditions in place. In America, no lasting tradition is more valid than another. It can be one's own tradition as a birthright or even a choice. Maybe some subcultures are not valid, especially criminal subcultures. But if it is strictly ethnicity, any ethnicity can have a winning culture in America.

Capitalism with a human face? Isn’t that what we had during the first quarter century following WWII? Then the more lunatic fringe of capitalism began taking over. Slowly at first, then accelerating from the Reagan years onward.

True. That is better than what we ended up with. Maybe the fault lies in the concentration of extreme narcissists in the economic and administrative elites. There are not the "peace, love, dope" people; these are the ones who sold out to the Establishment of the time and became even worse.  If the ideal of management-labor relations of the 1950's was the idea that a breadwinner could support a family, the more recent ideal is that people work as long and as hard as possible for bare survival... a primitive ideal that should have died long ago.

[Eric the Green]

(02-05-2020, 06:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 04:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 02:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Black Lives Matter didn't have much legs/ support beyond Minneapolis/St.Paul. The killer cops? Listen you old fascist pig hater, you shouldn't demonize those who are paid to serve and protect you.

There are good cops, and there are bad cops.  I got caught up in a doozy of a case that involved some bad ones.  (Would you believe that my tenant has a copy of her own death certificate?  She is known in certain circles as the dead lady?)  There are enough good cops (and good lawyers, and good judges, and good medical people) that we seem at the moment to have the upper hand.  

But, anyway, you cannot make me believe now that both types do not exist, and the bad cops cannot and should not be fought.  You just have to be patient.  Anything involving lawyers seems to take years.  You have to have enough money to lawyer up.  The bad lawyer didn't plan on me, a former engineer with no family or expensive hobbies, on opposing lawyers, on the DNA test that proved who the undead lady was.  

I discovered that justice was expensive, only to find out that this was half of a proverb in legal circles.  The other half is that injustice costs a little more.  

But resisting can be done.  Mostly, the undead lady is too stubborn to pick on.  The real necessity in cases like this is that you have to be too stubborn to quit.  

Some people really are demons.

Yes, there are good cops and bad cops and the systems do a pretty good job at sorting them out. I found it odd that so many so called liberals were so quick to ignore the American right of due process altogether and convict and label cops as killers/murderers for shooting some black person back in the day. Man, we experienced a string of cop related shootings and a string of cop related murders while on duty going on at the same time. We heard a lot about the negro related shootings by cops but didn't hear much about the cops who were being murdered/gunned down at the same time. I suppose the liberal media that was driving black lives matter at the time and the city politicians who took their side without knowing any facts will most likely be held accountable/liable for their deaths.

We hear about shootings of police by people as surely as we hear about police shootings of innocent people. Mostly people who shoot cops get the full brunt of the law while police who murder people get off scot free.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-05-2020, 06:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yes, there are good cops and bad cops and the systems do a pretty good job at sorting them out. I found it odd that so many so called liberals were so quick to ignore the American right of due process altogether and convict and label cops as killers/murderers for shooting some black person back in the day. Man, we experienced a string of cop related shootings and a string of cop related murders while on duty going on at the same time. We heard a lot about the negro related shootings by cops but didn't hear much about the cops who were being murdered/gunned down at the same time. I suppose the liberal media that was driving black lives matter at the time and the city politicians who took their side without knowing any facts will most likely be held accountable/liable for their deaths.

In the twin city’s case, the good cops did not do enough sitting on the bad cops, and a small war started.  It seems to be winding down.  It will not wind down fully until the bad cops are no longer as protected by the law that they feel that they can get away literally with murder.  As is, the good and bad cops are both in the line of fire.

If the whole people can not respect the official laws to create justice, they will eventually take justice in their own hands.  While official justice makes room for racism, the war won't cease.

[pbrower2a]

(02-05-2020, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 02:17 PM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 08:45 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 11:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-04-2020, 04:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: My three basic problems with the conservative movement are a habitual alliance between the establishment Republicans and the Elites, the racist element, and the small government theory that we should not work on things that need to be done.  I have not exactly been shy to denounce all three.  I note you are not an advocate of the racist or elites elements.  The Tea Party is an attempt to free the conservative base from elites.  I noted a prior post where you admitted it is not a good thing to let problems sit around and get worse.  You have denounced racism a number of times.

In theory, we should be on the same side.

My problem is that many in the middle of the country pursue the agenda set by the elites and racists.  While in many ways the Tea Party is ahead of the Democrats in fighting elite influence, still the elite influence is sending jobs abroad to the profit of a few, and that in fighting the minorities the racists ended up hurting the poor of the Xers and Millennials.  If you didn’t start saving way back when the influence of the Progressive Era was still strong, you find the fruit of your labor going to the elites instead of a retirement account.

I want to shake the typical person from the middle of the country and demand he wake up, to ask who he is really helping.

You're associated with an agenda set by elites and racists. I've run into/ seen more racist minorities associated with progressive politics than KKK and Neo Nazi's these days. Nope, it's not a good thing to ignore these problems and let these problems get even worse and become a major problem for Democrats. I don't tolerate racism that exists on the progressive side and I don't bow down or submit to their form of pressure either. So, who are you helping?

As a general racists are equal-opportunity... haters. Haters in minority groups would hate people in other minority groups. Let's put it this way: when it comes to the three most visible minorities -- blacks, Hispanics, and Asians -- they seem to be in lockstep on politics despite huge cultural differences between them. 

Contempt for Trump policies is not anti-white racism any more than contempt for the Mafia is anti-white (or specifically anti-Italian) or contempt for MS-13 is anti-Hispanic. People are right to show disdain for vile rogues. The most anti-Mafia people that you will ever meet are Italian-Americans. I can't say the same about Nazis and German-Americans, as it is in bad form to co-opt the suffering of others for selfish reasons.
 
From what I know of the progressive side, it might be anti-capitalist, but definitely not anti-white. White people are welcome to share in the struggle against the fascistic plutocracy that Donald Trump seeks to create. Both fascism and plutocracy are inconsistent with the democratic tradition. I'll be satisfied with "capitalism with a human face", which is far better than the inhuman monstrosity we now have.  

Note well: there is no one American tradition. Ask the First Peoples. Ask Hispanics in the Southwest whether they think that their traditions are less valid than some WASP tradition. Note well: the Hispanics can assimilate WASPs into their culture. The culture of the descendants of black slaves in America formed here. Irish-Americans picked and chose here. 

We do not have so much traditionalists and radical rejections of tradition; we have multiple traditions in place. In America, no lasting tradition is more valid than another. It can be one's own tradition as a birthright or even a choice. Maybe some subcultures are not valid, especially criminal subcultures. But if it is strictly ethnicity, any ethnicity can have a winning culture in America.

Capitalism with a human face? Isn’t that what we had during the first quarter century following WWII? Then the mote lunatic fringe of capitalism began taking over. Slowly at first, then accelerating from the Reagan years onward.

No, we had legal segregation and women largely reserved to the sole role of bearing and raising children and an economic system largely controlled by a group of American industrialists, Democratic politicians and labor unions.

There was even a movie just after WWII, Gentleman's Agreement, about discrimination against Jews in getting hotel rooms. Of all people and of all times!

[Classic-Xer]

(02-05-2020, 09:50 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 06:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yes, there are good cops and bad cops and the systems do a pretty good job at sorting them out. I found it odd that so many so called liberals were so quick to ignore the American right of due process altogether and convict and label cops as killers/murderers for shooting some black person back in the day. Man, we experienced a string of cop related shootings and a string of cop related murders while on duty going on at the same time. We heard a lot about the negro related shootings by cops but didn't hear much about the cops who were being murdered/gunned down at the same time. I suppose the liberal media that was driving black lives matter at the time and the city politicians who took their side without knowing any facts will most likely be held accountable/liable for their deaths.

In the twin city’s case, the good cops did not do enough sitting on the bad cops, and a small war started.  It seems to be winding down.  It will not wind down fully until the bad cops are no longer as protected by the law that they feel that they can get away literally with murder.  As is, the good and bad cops are both in the line of fire.

If the whole people can not respect the official laws to create justice, they will eventually take justice in their own hands.  While official justice makes room for racism, it won’t happen.

You're right, people who have no faith in law enforcement or law makers to do right by them will eventually take justice in their own hands. BTW, that can work both ways which you don't seem to quite grasp and understand these days.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-05-2020, 08:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 06:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 04:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-05-2020, 02:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Black Lives Matter didn't have much legs/ support beyond Minneapolis/St.Paul. The killer cops? Listen you old fascist pig hater, you shouldn't demonize those who are paid to serve and protect you.

There are good cops, and there are bad cops.  I got caught up in a doozy of a case that involved some bad ones.  (Would you believe that my tenant has a copy of her own death certificate?  She is known in certain circles as the dead lady?)  There are enough good cops (and good lawyers, and good judges, and good medical people) that we seem at the moment to have the upper hand.  

But, anyway, you cannot make me believe now that both types do not exist, and the bad cops cannot and should not be fought.  You just have to be patient.  Anything involving lawyers seems to take years.  You have to have enough money to lawyer up.  The bad lawyer didn't plan on me, a former engineer with no family or expensive hobbies, on opposing lawyers, on the DNA test that proved who the undead lady was.  

I discovered that justice was expensive, only to find out that this was half of a proverb in legal circles.  The other half is that injustice costs a little more.  

But resisting can be done.  Mostly, the undead lady is too stubborn to pick on.  The real necessity in cases like this is that you have to be too stubborn to quit.  

Some people really are demons.

Yes, there are good cops and bad cops and the systems do a pretty good job at sorting them out. I found it odd that so many so called liberals were so quick to ignore the American right of due process altogether and convict and label cops as killers/murderers for shooting some black person back in the day. Man, we experienced a string of cop related shootings and a string of cop related murders while on duty going on at the same time. We heard a lot about the negro related shootings by cops but didn't hear much about the cops who were being murdered/gunned down at the same time. I suppose the liberal media that was driving black lives matter at the time and the city politicians who took their side without knowing any facts will most likely be held accountable/liable for their deaths.

We hear about shootings of police by people as surely as we hear about police shootings of innocent people. Mostly people who shoot cops get the full brunt of the law while police who murder people get off scot free.

Define murder...I understand that liberals with dunce caps have a hard time with the meanings of words they use these days. Do you really deserve to have a decent police force these days? I don't think so. Personally, I don't think a third rate group of people/politicians deserve to have a first rate police force these days.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-05-2020, 05:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yes, yes, yes, the Republicans are the bad guys and the Democrats are the good guys and that's the way it's been and will always be in your opinion. One can assume that your partisan view will never change. Lets see, the Democrats have completely lost the support of half the country right now.Plus, there is a portion of the country that no longer identifies with the Democratic party and see's it as being no better than the Republican party. Do you understand this? Do you understand the negative impact that reality is going to eventually have on the liberal/Democratic side down the road? I assume that you have way more wealth than the typical welfare recipient. Is that a problem for you or me? It's not a problem for me or us for that matter. I assume that you have way more wealth than the illegal immigrant or the poor refuge does or the illegal immigrants kid or their American born kid too. Is that my problem or more your problem these days too. Why is Trump doing what some conservative Democrat should have been doing instead of a liberal Democrat who was elected to do the opposite and maintain the elitist status quo and why are liberal Democrats so pissed that we are rejecting them and basically slitting their throats politically.

Well, once the Republicans of Lincoln’s time were the party of industrial development and the abolitionists.  The Democrats were the party of slavers and the agricultural land owners.  At that point, the Whiggish arrow of progress was clearly pointing in the direction of the Republicans.  So, no, the Republican position has been in flux for as long as there were Republicans.  They went all the way from abolitionists to the Southern Strategy, from isolationists to the party of military strength, from what is good for General Motors is good for America, to refusing General Motors a loan.  Both parties changed significantly over the years.

Perhaps the Machine Democrats of the north were a major step in the evolution of the parties.  As I said, Tammany Hall used to send people to meet the immigrants, to tell them where they could find a place to live, where they could find a job, and tell them who to vote for.   The Democrats thus began representing the common laborer, the Republicans the establishment factory owners.  

The New Deal was another such milestone.  The war on poverty was another.  The civi rights efforts of the 1950s and 1960s was another.

If you asked me if by LBJ’s time the Democrats had held the Congress so long that it began to become inefficient and corrupt, you would find me agreeing.  If when the jobs were being shipped overseas someone pointed out that the robber barons were donating to both Republicans and Democrats, and the politicians who agreed on how wonderful globalism was are still viewed with skepticism and suspicion, I would agree with you.  It is not that one side was always good, the other always bad.

But today the elite and racist elements have created a Fox Fiction, a way of selling the middle of the country that government for the elites and racists is best.  A lot of people from the middle of the country buy into the propaganda, do not let themselves see what is going on.

I don’t see this as lasting indefinitely.  Every time the Republicans get in power they ruin the economy.  (It's the economy, stupid.  The Great Recession.)  They persistently attack things like benefits, jobs, labor unions and voting rights which give the working man a chance.  The elite / racist elements are obvious enough to be seen.

But if you buy into the Fox alternate reality, if you do not look for the obvious links, you fall into their trap.  If you lie as long and as much as Trump, folks will become very skeptical of what you say.  It has not happened enough yet.

One of the more interesting parts of the impeachment inquiry was the glimpse into the myth of the deep state.  You got to see some of the establishment pros of the Ukraine experts, and of the politicians common in the administration.  If you are familiar with the testimony, you found the established pros of the deep state were heroic, loyal to US policy, and responded to subpoena.  It was the politicians who were corrupt, in the loop, trying to work a ‘drug deal’, and part of the cover up.  This, the constant lies, the ‘OK Boomer’ meme, leave me hopeful the the moderates and independents that have driven the see saw might abandon the Fox vision and a new progressive era will result.

That does not imply that I am rooting for a corrupt or inefficient government.  Keep an eye towards that.  It has always happened before, and I expect it will happen again if you leave any group in power for too long.

But you have to know a difference between a government for the racists and elitists and a government for the people.  You have to let go of the false reality.