The Partisan Divide on Issues

[David Horn]

(07-23-2020, 01:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-22-2020, 06:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The National Guard was not needed to stop a few youths from throwing a firework or painting graffiti. That's all they were doing until Trump's goons showed up.

There's no-one better to quote than MLK. Disregarding what he says makes you look like.....
because you have forgotten what the true greatness of America IS.

I know, it's all Trumps fault as usual. I doubt Trump would stick his neck out over something minor. So, why doesn't the governor send in the national guard like he should and has the authority to do right now instead of doing nothing as usual and pointing his finger and blaming Trump. Why do Democrats act like teenage boys and girls? I'll give them credit they're all pretty much equal.  As I've mentioned before, I have a close friend who gave up on the Democratic party and there are about twenty million or so Democratic voters like him these days. You're not going to hear anything from them until November. Like I said, this is going to boil down to Liberal Culture vs American Culture.

First, the mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark.  The citizens of Portland seem OK with that, so why is it Trump's business how loud they get?  Oh yeah, there's an election coming, his numbers are in the tank, and he needs fear-mongering because it's all he's got.  Next he'll try Chicago and Kansas City because they are being overrun by guns (I wonder why that is   ). 

It's all street theater with real lives at stake -- not his, of course. Cadet Bone Spurs knows how to avoid a fight where he has to actually, you know, participate!

[pbrower2a]

(07-23-2020, 01:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-22-2020, 06:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The National Guard was not needed to stop a few youths from throwing a firework or painting graffiti. That's all they were doing until Trump's goons showed up.

There's no-one better to quote than MLK. Disregarding what he says makes you look like.....
because you have forgotten what the true greatness of America IS.

I know, it's all Trumps fault as usual. I doubt Trump would stick his neck out over something minor. So, why doesn't the governor send in the national guard like he should and has the authority to do right now instead of doing nothing as usual and pointing his finger and blaming Trump. Why do Democrats act like teenage boys and girls? I'll give them credit they're all pretty much equal.  As I've mentioned before, I have a close friend who gave up on the Democratic party and there are about twenty million or so Democratic voters like him these days. You're not going to hear anything from them until November. Like I said, this is going to boil down to Liberal Culture vs American Culture.

States rights. The States have the right to act against despotic conduct of a President, a general, or some political clique in the defense of liberties established in the Constitution. 



The current Presidency seems to be treating the Boll of Rights as an irrelevancy when it gets in its way, denying people those rights when the exercise of those rights gets in the way of his agenda and his self-image. Trump is doing things that neither of us would have tolerated under any prior President, Congress has not delegated him such powers because those are not the authority of Congress to delegate to him.

Beyond any question, the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments prohibit despotic behavior by Governors and legislatures even if elected and that they have decided that they can violate the Constitution.  The States can interpret the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments to treat illegal encroachments of power by the federal government. as violations of State law. The federal government has extensive power due to the Interstate Commerce and General Welfare clauses to regulate state activity but no right to establish any agency of law enforcement or delegate to any existing agency the prerogative to delegate to an existing agency the authority to violate the Constitution of the United States. Yes, the federal government can have law enforcement agencies to deter, prevent, and punish on-the-job behavior of federal employees contrary to federal law; to do much the same against activities attempting to use the agencies of the federal government to violate the law (which explains the Postal Inspectors against mail fraud and shipment of illegal material such as drugs or child pornography through the mails); to apprehend fugitives who exploit state lines (the FBI typically uses the pretext of interstate flight to avoid prosecution); military police to apprehend AWOL soldiers and sailors, enforce the lawful regulations of the Armed Services, and to enforce compliance with federal laws; protection of federal property and secrets (I have worked for the US Census, and I am legally precluded from leaking any information that I received as part of my work, I will not even identify where I went to do Census work); and protection of federal employees on the job from criminal acts such as assault or murder.

Over more than two hundred years, America has much precedent in establishing the meaning of the Bill of Rights. At the same time the histories of other political orders demonstrate what is possible when rights similar to those enshrined in our Constitution are abridged and denied -- when governments close media outlets for criticizing the Leadership or its enforcers, when it discriminates against minorities (a practice commonplace in American history until proved unacceptable by the Courts), when it takes property without compensation or a mockery of compensation or strips people of the ability to enjoy the benefits of property ownership and custody, when governments do horrible things to people who dissent with the Leader of the time... this can involve lynch mobs that the government authorizes due to neglect or malign collaboration or the official misconduct of agencies of law enforcement. A police force with powers not granted by statutory law or acting with nebulous authority begins to suggest something that we can all consider un-American: a secret police. 

I have suggested that there are over three hundred ways in which to be American (OK, many of those are effective duplicates) but I have rarely discussed what is un-American. An Okhrana (Imperial Russia), OVRA (fascist Italy), Gestapo, Kempeitai, Cheka/OGPU/NKVD/KGB, Stasi, Securitate, BOSS (Apartheid-era South Africa), SAVAK (imperial Iran), Tontons Macoute (Haitian dictatorships of the Duvalier family), State Research Unit (Uganda under Idi Amurderin'), Mukhabarat (Iraq under Satan Hussein), or Comites de la Defesa de la Revolucion (Castro's Cuba) is un-Constitutional and thus un-American. Say what you want about Obama, but he never came close to doing any of the egregions assaults upon civil liberties that Donald Trump has done. Maybe we liberals have never been tested for stunts that this President has done; Trump is unique to the Presidency. OK, some of us remember "Tricky Dick" doing shady things, but in the end the system turned against such deeds as breaking into the office of the psychiatrist of Daniel Ellsberg to get dirt on a critic.   

Surely you would no more tolerate a liberal President using unidentifiable agents of law enforcement to make unwarranted arrests of political dissidents. So would we. Maybe I can't speak for conservatives, but I can look at the statements of some conservatives that hold such gross misconduct by the President, through order or acquiescence of the President against such behavior. We liberals rarely get to use such statements against the people for whom we vote. Sure, Donald Trump can state that our refusal to go along with his dream to "Make America Great Again" is disorderly contempt toward a lawfully-elected President.

Does it tell you something that one of Donald Trump's rivals in the 2016 Republican primaries, John Kasich (R-OH), an undeniable conservative and former Governor of a high-profile state, is endorsing Joe Biden? Kasich is a conservative on economic and social issues... but he must see something terribly wrong with the inchoate dictatorship forming in the Trump Presidency. Kasich is a conservative and not a fascist. 

Protection of civil liberties, due process, the rule of law, and governmental accountability is definitively American, and despotic rule is contrary to over two hundred years of American political heritage. Indeed our American Revolution was possible only because King George III denied people in the American colonies rights that they assumed that they had, whether one sees those as God-given or inherent in human nature. Civil liberties, due process, the rule of law, and  governmental accountability may no longer be particularly American, but their denial offends the sensibilities of people across lines of class, gender, ethnicity, national origin, age, sexual orientation, cultural identity, and even one's position on the political spectrum. 

The despotic tendencies of this President must not stand. Nobody can reasonably expect lockstep acquiescence with the next President any more than with the previous President, and our wannabe dictator is no exception. 

ABORT FASCISM NOW!

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I agree, both sides value life. Life is a common value that both side share. So, what all goes into life (peoples lives) these days? I assume that you and I have much different lives. Me, I own a business and I have a family to support which requires a lot of time and effort on my behalf. I'm out there working and interacting with people every day with the exception of typical slow times of the year and occasional opportunities to take a breather and catch up on paperwork or spend time doing this during patches of mild weather like now.

As a software guy, I had a small fixed group of team members that I had to interact with rather than clients which you deal with for a brief time then might not see again for quite a while.  Quite different in a way.  I got to know better a handful of people who were similar to me.

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Our governor spent more time bouncing between his constituencies and pleasing his constituencies than he spent worrying about the impacts on the lives of working people and small business's and so forth. You know what, the more I get to know the Democrats, the more I can't stand the Democrats. To be honest, by the time we get out of this financial mess, we are going to be in debt up to our eye balls if not over our head. Bob, the writing is on the wall. The United States as we know it, is not coming out this crisis the way it is today. We both agree on that. If you're lucky, you'll be dead before the shit hits the fan. Now, you can stick with selling/playing liberal kumbaya, love and peace, live and let live and continue supporting liberal peacekeepers for Democratic presidents whose main purpose is to keep an old party that's half rotten together. Now, you may not be in the rotten half of the party. You too seem like a decent level headed person at times too. You worked for what you have and stashed away as much as you could to set yourself up for retirement which explains the reason why the economy doesn't seem to matter to you at this point. You may have flirted with Marxism but you didn't stick with Marxism and embraced the American way. I'll make you a deal. You keep the crazy liberal comments to yourself, I'll keep the comments about future violence to myself. One other thing relating to the violence that I speak of, it's not an empty threat, it's a real threat that at least wise enough to know where the border was between blue and red. I'm going to share some real life information with you, the looters and rioters stopped a few miles from my home because there was a heavily armed group of residents who were waiting for them. I had neighborhood duty. Like I said, I believe the American people are mainly ahead of the people running Washington, DC.

I agree that many politicians serve the elites rather than the people who elect them.  I see the Republicans as being slightly worse that way, but both parties are in it.

I still do not recognize myself or the other blues I know in how you describe them.  You persist in creating wild strawmen, the easier to not have to confront the real motives of your opposition and keep your imaginings alive.  To the extent that you keep preaching bogus information, I will likely enough keep countering it.

Armed neighborhood watches are a good supplement to the racist violent police who are more interested in going after protestors than enforcing the law.  I would clearly prefer that vigilante justice were not necessary, that the police would do their jobs, but as long as they keep the racist violent approach to the community, the vigilante groups will be necessary.

The old unraveling approach took the benefits of increased production efficiency, steered to much of the profits into a huge wealth difference between the elites and the working people, froze the length of the work week and retirement age, minimized things like benefits and labor unions which attempted to steer wages towards the working man, minimized domestic spending aimed at helping the working man and focused on the manufacture of luxuries.  I would think all this will have to be rethought.  The elitism and racism of the Republican Party does not make me think they are likely to be the ones to do the rethinking.

Your mind set is locked into denying this, that the Democrats are the ones who are closer to the working man than the elites.  As a result, you create bogus Democratic motivations which as a blue leaning guy I do not recognize.  They do not represent what I really perceive and value.  Repeatedly pointing this out seems to not effect you.  I am persistent too, though.

[David Horn]

(07-23-2020, 11:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The old unraveling approach took the benefits of increased production efficiency, steered to much of the profits into a huge wealth difference between the elites and the working people, froze the length of the work week and retirement age, minimized things like benefits and labor unions which attempted to steer wages towards the working man, minimized domestic spending aimed at helping the working man and focused on the manufacture of luxuries.  I would think all this will have to be rethought.  The elitism and racism of the Republican Party does not make me think they are likely to be the ones to do the rethinking...

An excellent description of the current state and its effects. Why this is not obvious to most working people is a mystery. Then again, it might not be. In fact, it may be aspirational: getting high enough in the pecking order to get in on the kleptocracy. I can't find any other excuse. In a way, that would be better, because the realization is already there. When the aspiration becomes untenable, maybe then we get real change. We may be there ... finally.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-23-2020, 09:44 AM)David Horn Wrote: First, the mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark.  The citizens of Portland seem OK with that, so why is it Trump's business how loud they get?  Oh yeah, there's an election coming, his numbers are in the tank, and he needs fear-mongering because it's all he's got.  Next he'll try Chicago and Kansas City because they are being overrun by guns (I wonder why that is   ). 

It's all street theater with real lives at stake -- not his, of course. Cadet Bone Spurs knows how to avoid a fight where he has to actually, you know, participate!

The mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark, mark and claim territory, wreck/destroy peoples property, threaten and kill people too. It would be nice if they were just dogs. Unfortunately, the dogs are humans with rights and legal protections who know the legal restrictions pertaining to law enforcement. I met one at a Bush rally. Can you imagine, a Liberal kid from some place with no sense of respect or values of his own feeling free to pick on and intimidate an elderly woman who happened to be a retired nurse about your age and my mother. Yes, I'm familiar with the shit that Liberal culture produces and sends to Democratic cities/strong holds to aggravate American culture. Hint: They didn't have a political identity back then. I assume Liberal culture is buying into its own hype and making believers of themselves too. I keep telling you that Liberal culture is pretty much on it's own at this point.

I listened to a real liberal (an American lefty who happened to be a black middle aged woman ) associated with the Black Lives Matter movement in Las Vegas. As old Biden would say, she seemed decent, articulate and appealing to main stream middle Americans like me which must have been rare for Democratic black people back in 08'. She seemed pretty level headed or down home as we say and she seemed like an straight shooter too. According to her, Congress has a very narrow window of opportunity to get something decent (practical and mutually beneficial) passed before something mind blowing occurs and window is closed for along time. Do you know what I think, I think she knows that I'm right about America because she's hearing what we (real Americans) are saying and she knows we aren't bluffing or posting empty threats and or showing any signs of clinging to or sticking with old laurels associated with the past. To be blunt, the politicians are spending trillions of billionaire and millionaire and American business dollars of those who do not exist and a zillion dollar economy that doesn't exist either.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-23-2020, 11:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I agree, both sides value life. Life is a common value that both side share. So, what all goes into life (peoples lives) these days? I assume that you and I have much different lives. Me, I own a business and I have a family to support which requires a lot of time and effort on my behalf. I'm out there working and interacting with people every day with the exception of typical slow times of the year and occasional opportunities to take a breather and catch up on paperwork or spend time doing this during patches of mild weather like now.

As a software guy, I had a small fixed group of team members that I had to interact with rather than clients which you deal with for a brief time then might not see again for quite a while.  Quite different in a way.  I got to know better a handful of people who were similar to me.

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Our governor spent more time bouncing between his constituencies and pleasing his constituencies than he spent worrying about the impacts on the lives of working people and small business's and so forth. You know what, the more I get to know the Democrats, the more I can't stand the Democrats. To be honest, by the time we get out of this financial mess, we are going to be in debt up to our eye balls if not over our head. Bob, the writing is on the wall. The United States as we know it, is not coming out this crisis the way it is today. We both agree on that. If you're lucky, you'll be dead before the shit hits the fan. Now, you can stick with selling/playing liberal kumbaya, love and peace, live and let live and continue supporting liberal peacekeepers for Democratic presidents whose main purpose is to keep an old party that's half rotten together. Now, you may not be in the rotten half of the party. You too seem like a decent level headed person at times too. You worked for what you have and stashed away as much as you could to set yourself up for retirement which explains the reason why the economy doesn't seem to matter to you at this point. You may have flirted with Marxism but you didn't stick with Marxism and embraced the American way. I'll make you a deal. You keep the crazy liberal comments to yourself, I'll keep the comments about future violence to myself. One other thing relating to the violence that I speak of, it's not an empty threat, it's a real threat that at least wise enough to know where the border was between blue and red. I'm going to share some real life information with you, the looters and rioters stopped a few miles from my home because there was a heavily armed group of residents who were waiting for them. I had neighborhood duty. Like I said, I believe the American people are mainly ahead of the people running Washington, DC.

I agree that many politicians serve the elites rather than the people who elect them.  I see the Republicans as being slightly worse that way, but both parties are in it.

I still do not recognize myself or the other blues I know in how you describe them.  You persist in creating wild strawmen, the easier to not have to confront the real motives of your opposition and keep your imaginings alive.  To the extent that you keep preaching bogus information, I will likely enough keep countering it.

Armed neighborhood watches are a good supplement to the racist violent police who are more interested in going after protestors than enforcing the law.  I would clearly prefer that vigilante justice were not necessary, that the police would do their jobs, but as long as they keep the racist violent approach to the community, the vigilante groups will be necessary.

The old unraveling approach took the benefits of increased production efficiency, steered to much of the profits into a huge wealth difference between the elites and the working people, froze the length of the work week and retirement age, minimized things like benefits and labor unions which attempted to steer wages towards the working man, minimized domestic spending aimed at helping the working man and focused on the manufacture of luxuries.  I would think all this will have to be rethought.  The elitism and racism of the Republican Party does not make me think they are likely to be the ones to do the rethinking.

Your mind set is locked into denying this, that the Democrats are the ones who are closer to the working man than the elites.  As a result, you create bogus Democratic motivations which as a blue leaning guy I do not recognize.  They do not represent what I really perceive and value.  Repeatedly pointing this out seems to not effect you.  I am persistent too, though.

[Eric the Green]

(07-23-2020, 01:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-22-2020, 06:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The National Guard was not needed to stop a few youths from throwing a firework or painting graffiti. That's all they were doing until Trump's goons showed up.

There's no-one better to quote than MLK. Disregarding what he says makes you look like.....
because you have forgotten what the true greatness of America IS.

I know, it's all Trumps fault as usual. I doubt Trump would stick his neck out over something minor.

But that's just what he did.
Trump is not a person who has any sense of what is needed. It's not all Trump's fault, but Trump is almost always faulty. Distinction there.

Quote: So, why doesn't the governor send in the national guard like he should and has the authority to do right now instead of doing nothing as usual and pointing his finger and blaming Trump. Why do Democrats act like teenage boys and girls? I'll give them credit they're all pretty much equal. As I've mentioned before, I have a close friend who gave up on the Democratic party and there are about twenty million or so Democratic voters like him these days. You're not going to hear anything from them until November. Like I said, this is going to boil down to Liberal Culture vs American Culture.

I think the polls can pick up most people. They are going to be more careful this time after being 2 or 3% wrong last time.

Like you said, you don't define "American culture," so you have yet to say anything about that.

[David Horn]

(07-23-2020, 03:44 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 09:44 AM)David Horn Wrote: First, the mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark.  The citizens of Portland seem OK with that, so why is it Trump's business how loud they get?  Oh yeah, there's an election coming, his numbers are in the tank, and he needs fear-mongering because it's all he's got.  Next he'll try Chicago and Kansas City because they are being overrun by guns (I wonder why that is   ). 

It's all street theater with real lives at stake -- not his, of course. Cadet Bone Spurs knows how to avoid a fight where he has to actually, you know, participate!

The mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark, mark and claim  territory, wreck/destroy peoples property, threaten and kill  people too. It would be nice if they were just dogs. Unfortunately, the dogs are humans with rights and legal protections who know the legal  restrictions pertaining to law  enforcement. I met one at a Bush rally. Can you imagine, a Liberal kid from some place with no sense of respect or values of his own  feeling free to pick on and intimidate    an elderly woman who happened to be a retired nurse about your age  and    my mother.   Yes, I'm familiar with the shit that Liberal culture produces and sends to Democratic cities/strong holds  to aggravate American culture. Hint: They didn't have a political identity back then. I assume Liberal culture is buying into its own hype and making believers of themselves too. I keep telling you that Liberal culture is pretty much on it's own at this point.

According to the locals, including the authorities among others, The protests were relatively small, noisy and peaceful. It only got bad once the stormtroopers arrived and start acting the part. As far as your hurt feelings, understand that the protests are a faint shadow of the bad things that have happened to Black and Native American people in the past and present. If it made you uncomfortable, then that was the purpose. No one, including your retired nurse, has special agency to float above the crowd. On the other hand, some few individuals have gotten WAY out of hand, but the only protestor who has killed anyone is the guy in Charlottesville who ran down counter protestors with his car, and he's a skinhead.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I listened to a real liberal (an American lefty who happened to be a black middle aged woman ) associated with the Black Lives Matter movement in Las Vegas. As old Biden would say, she seemed decent, articulate and appealing to main stream middle Americans like me which must have been rare for Democratic black people back  in 08'. She seemed pretty level headed or down home as we say  and she  seemed like an straight shooter too. According to her, Congress has a very narrow window of opportunity to get something decent (practical and mutually beneficial) passed before something mind blowing occurs and window is closed for along time. Do you know what I think, I think she knows that I'm right about America because she's hearing what we (real Americans) are saying and she knows we aren't bluffing or posting empty threats and or showing any signs of clinging to or sticking with old  laurels associated with the past. To be blunt, the politicians are spending trillions of billionaire and millionaire and American business dollars of those  who do not exist and a zillion dollar economy that doesn't exist either.

I suspect she was warning folks like you that THEIR patience was running out, and rioting can be the result. Note: she isn't going to riot, but young hotheads certainly might. This all started in 1619. After 400 years of waiting for fair treatment, expecting even more patience is unrealistic.

[Bob Butler 54]

CNN has Trump cancelling the Jacksonville Florida part of the Republican convention.  He claims the time is just not right for a large indoor group of people packed close together.  

Well, duh...

[David Horn]

(07-23-2020, 04:50 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: CNN has Trump cancelling the Jacksonville Florida part of the Republican convention.  He claims the time is just not right for a large indoor group of people packed close together.  

Well, duh...

I guess his Alzheimer's test gave him cover to be "smart". Of course, the locals were going to cancel it if he and the GOP decided to go ahead, so some face saving was included at no additional cost.

[Eric the Green]

(07-23-2020, 01:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-22-2020, 06:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The National Guard was not needed to stop a few youths from throwing a firework or painting graffiti. That's all they were doing until Trump's goons showed up.

There's no-one better to quote than MLK. Disregarding what he says makes you look like.....
because you have forgotten what the true greatness of America IS.

I know, it's all Trumps fault as usual. I doubt Trump would stick his neck out over something minor. So, why doesn't the governor send in the national guard like he should and has the authority to do right now instead of doing nothing as usual and pointing his finger and blaming Trump. Why do Democrats act like teenage boys and girls? I'll give them credit they're all pretty much equal.  As I've mentioned before, I have a close friend who gave up on the Democratic party and there are about twenty million or so Democratic voters like him these days. You're not going to hear anything from them until November. Like I said, this is going to boil down to Liberal Culture vs American Culture.

I would not totally discount the hidden vote in America for the right-wing side of the culture war. Voters did come out of the woodwork to vote for Trump in 2016 and thereby shift the national popular vote about 2 points from where the pre-election polls indicated, from 4% + Democratic to 2% + Democratic. This happened especially in Florida and the Rust Belt northern tier of swing states.

But it will only take a shift of 1 or 2 % this time to shift 4 of these states Democratic again. Florida now favors Biden by 7 points, Wisconsin by 6, Michigan by almost 8, and Pennsylvania by 6 and a half. Even in Ohio Biden now leads by 2 points. Biden is a stronger candidate than Hillary was, in spite of his age.

Last time, Trump's appeal to voters in these 5 states was not mainly cultural. He ran well-produced ads in the Rust Belt swing states that appealed to the working class that was suffering in those states. His promised to end free trade was very appealing to workers in the declining industrial small towns and small cities in those states. He also sold them on the idea, the way Reagan did, that his trickle-down policies would stoke the economy. To some extent, his tax cuts kept the economic recovery begun by Obama going. But in truth, the economy in Trump's term was not better than during Obama's second term. Trickle-down economics, tariffs, and stopping immigration are what Trump promised. It's reasonable to suppose that Trump did not quite deliver on these. Free trade is about the same as what it was before, and immigration was never a real economic problem in these states to begin with. Trickle-down doesn't trickle.

So Trump's attempt now to appeal to those who reject removal of confederate statues and renaming bases and his anti-immigration policy may not be enough to offset the now-failing economy due to his failure to lead on covid. He may be delivering on culture-war symbols, and gaining some support by stoking fears of non-existent riots and temporary crime waves and blaming them on left-wing radicals and anti-police protesters. But denial of the right to protest may not be what the swing voters want, and the killing of unarmed black people by police has increased concern among whites for better race relations and police reform, and Trump trails Biden 2-1 on that issue. The fear he preys upon may not be greater than the real fear due to an out-of-control pandemic about which Trump appears helpless and in denial.

[Bob Butler 54]

CNN Reports that the Justice Department is opening an investigation into the use of force in Portland and Washington.

Doesn't the inspector general know that investigating anything that Trump wants is a good way to get fired?

[Bob Butler 54]

CNN again opines that the Lincoln Project is remaking US politics.

Right now the Lincoln crowd are backing Biden.  In the long term they may pick up the pieces after the Trump and establishment Republicans run the party into the ground.  We have projected that after the Republicans discredit themselves, they will remake themselves into something else.  It may be that the Lincoln Project is that something else.  They might bring back something like the old conservatism, the conservative conservatism, that advocates for the Constitution, careful responsible economics and abhors Trump style selfishness and corruption. 

Worth watching them as more than a sign that the Republicans are falling apart, are fighting amongst each other.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-23-2020, 11:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I agree, both sides value life. Life is a common value that both side share. So, what all goes into life (peoples lives) these days? I assume that you and I have much different lives. Me, I own a business and I have a family to support which requires a lot of time and effort on my behalf. I'm out there working and interacting with people every day with the exception of typical slow times of the year and occasional opportunities to take a breather and catch up on paperwork or spend time doing this during patches of mild weather like now.

As a software guy, I had a small fixed group of team members that I had to interact with rather than clients which you deal with for a brief time then might not see again for quite a while.  Quite different in a way.  I got to know better a handful of people who were similar to me.

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Our governor spent more time bouncing between his constituencies and pleasing his constituencies than he spent worrying about the impacts on the lives of working people and small business's and so forth. You know what, the more I get to know the Democrats, the more I can't stand the Democrats. To be honest, by the time we get out of this financial mess, we are going to be in debt up to our eye balls if not over our head. Bob, the writing is on the wall. The United States as we know it, is not coming out this crisis the way it is today. We both agree on that. If you're lucky, you'll be dead before the shit hits the fan. Now, you can stick with selling/playing liberal kumbaya, love and peace, live and let live and continue supporting liberal peacekeepers for Democratic presidents whose main purpose is to keep an old party that's half rotten together. Now, you may not be in the rotten half of the party. You too seem like a decent level headed person at times too. You worked for what you have and stashed away as much as you could to set yourself up for retirement which explains the reason why the economy doesn't seem to matter to you at this point. You may have flirted with Marxism but you didn't stick with Marxism and embraced the American way. I'll make you a deal. You keep the crazy liberal comments to yourself, I'll keep the comments about future violence to myself. One other thing relating to the violence that I speak of, it's not an empty threat, it's a real threat that at least wise enough to know where the border was between blue and red. I'm going to share some real life information with you, the looters and rioters stopped a few miles from my home because there was a heavily armed group of residents who were waiting for them. I had neighborhood duty. Like I said, I believe the American people are mainly ahead of the people running Washington, DC.

I agree that many politicians serve the elites rather than the people who elect them.  I see the Republicans as being slightly worse that way, but both parties are in it.

I still do not recognize myself or the other blues I know in how you describe them.  You persist in creating wild strawmen, the easier to not have to confront the real motives of your opposition and keep your imaginings alive.  To the extent that you keep preaching bogus information, I will likely enough keep countering it.

Armed neighborhood watches are a good supplement to the racist violent police who are more interested in going after protestors than enforcing the law.  I would clearly prefer that vigilante justice were not necessary, that the police would do their jobs, but as long as they keep the racist violent approach to the community, the vigilante groups will be necessary.

The old unraveling approach took the benefits of increased production efficiency, steered to much of the profits into a huge wealth difference between the elites and the working people, froze the length of the work week and retirement age, minimized things like benefits and labor unions which attempted to steer wages towards the working man, minimized domestic spending aimed at helping the working man and focused on the manufacture of luxuries.  I would think all this will have to be rethought.  The elitism and racism of the Republican Party does not make me think they are likely to be the ones to do the rethinking.

Your mind set is locked into denying this, that the Democrats are the ones who are closer to the working man than the elites.  As a result, you create bogus Democratic motivations which as a blue leaning guy I do not recognize.  They do not represent what I really perceive and value.  Repeatedly pointing this out seems to not effect you.  I am persistent too, though.

Bob, my mind isn't locked and I don't live in a state of denial either. We know longer trust or believe in each other. So, what else is new?

[Classic-Xer]

(07-23-2020, 06:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I would not totally discount the hidden vote in America for the right-wing side of the culture war. Voters did come out of the woodwork to vote for Trump in 2016 and thereby shift the national popular vote about 2 points from where the pre-election polls indicated, from 4% + Democratic to 2% + Democratic. This happened especially in Florida and the Rust Belt northern tier of swing states.

But it will only take a shift of 1 or 2 % this time to shift 4 of these states Democratic again. Florida now favors Biden by 7 points, Wisconsin by 6, Michigan by almost 8, and Pennsylvania by 6 and a half. Even in Ohio Biden now leads by 2 points. Biden is a stronger candidate than Hillary was, in spite of his age.

Last time, Trump's appeal to voters in these 5 states was not mainly cultural. He ran well-produced ads in the Rust Belt swing states that appealed to the working class that was suffering in those states. His promise to end free trade was very appealing to workers in the declining industrial small towns and small cities in those states. He also sold them on the idea, the way Reagan did, that his trickle-down policies would stoke the economy. To some extent, his tax cuts kept the economic recovery begun by Obama going. But in truth, the economy in Trump's term was not better than during Obama's second term. Trickle-down economics, tariffs, and stopping immigration are what Trump promised. It's reasonable to suppose that Trump did not quite deliver on these. Free trade is about the same as what it was before, and immigration was never a real economic problem in these states to begin with. Trickle-down doesn't trickle.

So Trump's attempt now to appeal to those who reject removal of confederate statues and renaming bases and his anti-immigration policy may not be enough to offset the now-failing economy due to his failure to lead on covid. He may be delivering on culture-war symbols, and gaining some support by stoking fears of non-existent riots and temporary crime waves and blaming them on left-wing radicals and anti-police protesters. But denial of the right to protest may not be what the swing voters want, and the killing of unarmed black people by police has increased concern among whites for better race relations and police reform, and Trump trails Biden 2-1 on that issue. The fear he preys upon may not be greater than the real fear due to an out-of-control pandemic about which Trump appears helpless and in denial.

Well, illegal immigration is an economic problem. Why is an illegal immigrant doing the work of a poor American reliant upon welfare or a lazy couch potato should be doing? Granted, we probably aren't paying for the lazy liberal couch potato yet. The Obama recovery was a slow recovery that didn't recover very much over 8 years. So, how far was Clinton up in the polls the day before the election? As far as Biden, I've seen enough of Biden to know that he's not up for the task that lays ahead? My buddy who has been a loyal Democrat since he's been old enough to vote is voting for Trump. As far as the polls, I think you're seeing all the liberal hype and lack of seeing Biden in action is being reflected in the polls right now.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-24-2020, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:  Bob, my mind isn't locked and  I don't live in a state of denial either. We know longer trust or  believe in each other. So, what else is new?

You keep spouting a false set of motivations that you attribute to Democrats to justify your belief set.  I don't recognize these motivations in myself or the other liberals I know.  You do this in a way that I believe your mind is locked and in a state of denial.

What can I say?

[Eric the Green]

(07-24-2020, 01:34 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 06:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I would not totally discount the hidden vote in America for the right-wing side of the culture war. Voters did come out of the woodwork to vote for Trump in 2016 and thereby shift the national popular vote about 2 points from where the pre-election polls indicated, from 4% + Democratic to 2% + Democratic. This happened especially in Florida and the Rust Belt northern tier of swing states.

But it will only take a shift of 1 or 2 % this time to shift 4 of these states Democratic again. Florida now favors Biden by 7 points, Wisconsin by 6, Michigan by almost 8, and Pennsylvania by 6 and a half. Even in Ohio Biden now leads by 2 points. Biden is a stronger candidate than Hillary was, in spite of his age.

Last time, Trump's appeal to voters in these 5 states was not mainly cultural. He ran well-produced ads in the Rust Belt swing states that appealed to the working class that was suffering in those states. His promise to end free trade was very appealing to workers in the declining industrial small towns and small cities in those states. He also sold them on the idea, the way Reagan did, that his trickle-down policies would stoke the economy. To some extent, his tax cuts kept the economic recovery begun by Obama going. But in truth, the economy in Trump's term was not better than during Obama's second term. Trickle-down economics, tariffs, and stopping immigration are what Trump promised. It's reasonable to suppose that Trump did not quite deliver on these. Free trade is about the same as what it was before, and immigration was never a real economic problem in these states to begin with. Trickle-down doesn't trickle.

So Trump's attempt now to appeal to those who reject removal of confederate statues and renaming bases and his anti-immigration policy may not be enough to offset the now-failing economy due to his failure to lead on covid. He may be delivering on culture-war symbols, and gaining some support by stoking fears of non-existent riots and temporary crime waves and blaming them on left-wing radicals and anti-police protesters. But denial of the right to protest may not be what the swing voters want, and the killing of unarmed black people by police has increased concern among whites for better race relations and police reform, and Trump trails Biden 2-1 on that issue. The fear he preys upon may not be greater than the real fear due to an out-of-control pandemic about which Trump appears helpless and in denial.

Well, illegal immigration is an economic problem. Why is an illegal immigrant doing the work of a poor American reliant upon welfare or a lazy couch potato should be doing? Granted, we probably aren't paying for the lazy liberal couch potato yet. The Obama recovery was a slow recovery that didn't recover very much over 8 years. So, how far was Clinton up in the polls the day before the election? As far as Biden, I've seen enough of Biden to know that he's not up for the task that lays ahead? My buddy who has been a loyal Democrat since he's been old enough to vote is voting for Trump. As far as the polls, I think you're seeing all the liberal hype and lack of seeing Biden in action is being reflected in the polls right now.

You missed the point I was making. Immigrants are not moving in any numbers to Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. They go to Texas, California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Colorado, Louisiana....

The poor illegal immigrant is not threatening your job or that of a middle class uneducated white guy. Poor illegal immigrants seeking asylum are not on welfare in any greater numbers than lazy white liberal couch potatoes or anyone else. Immigrants boost the economy by providing more workers, consumers and entrepreneurs. Poor immigrants take jobs that whites don't want, and bosses hire them because they can't find others.

Clinton was up 4% in the polls; she won the popular vote by 2%. The point is, Trump won those 3 Rust Belt states that made the difference by 1%. It won't take a big shift to send him back to Trump Tower. 

The Obama recovery was slow, but any good result that Trump got was due to what Obama did. You could give Trump credit for tax cuts, since that's all you Republicans want or care about, economically. But tax cuts don't make much difference anymore (not to mention piling up the national debt), and so Trump's term was not more prosperous than Obama's second term, although recovery was starting to be felt by more people in Trump's term until his mismanagement of covid.

Biden garbled words in the debates, but since then he has been strong. David Brooks interviewed him and said he was the same Biden as in the past. Trump is a mental case and is aging just as fast as Biden. Trump does not put out meaningful sentences. He has no principles, and as George Will said there isn't much crockery left in the china cabinet for him to break. It's funny though how Trump is still dumping on Biden for staying in his basement. It's just another hilarious example of how Trump misuses slogans to deceive the people. Nothing he ever says is true.

[pbrower2a]

(07-23-2020, 04:49 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 03:44 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 09:44 AM)David Horn Wrote: First, the mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark.  The citizens of Portland seem OK with that, so why is it Trump's business how loud they get?  Oh yeah, there's an election coming, his numbers are in the tank, and he needs fear-mongering because it's all he's got.  Next he'll try Chicago and Kansas City because they are being overrun by guns (I wonder why that is   ). 

It's all street theater with real lives at stake -- not his, of course. Cadet Bone Spurs knows how to avoid a fight where he has to actually, you know, participate!

The mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark, mark and claim  territory, wreck/destroy peoples property, threaten and kill  people too. It would be nice if they were just dogs. Unfortunately, the dogs are humans with rights and legal protections who know the legal  restrictions pertaining to law  enforcement. I met one at a Bush rally. Can you imagine, a Liberal kid from some place with no sense of respect or values of his own  feeling free to pick on and intimidate    an elderly woman who happened to be a retired nurse about your age  and    my mother.   Yes, I'm familiar with the shit that Liberal culture produces and sends to Democratic cities/strong holds  to aggravate American culture. Hint: They didn't have a political identity back then. I assume Liberal culture is buying into its own hype and making believers of themselves too. I keep telling you that Liberal culture is pretty much on it's own at this point.

According to the locals, including the authorities among others, The protests were relatively small, noisy and peaceful.  It only got bad once the stormtroopers arrived and start acting the part. As far as your hurt feelings, understand that the protests are a faint shadow of the bad things that have happened to Black and Native American people in the past and present. If it made you uncomfortable, then that was the purpose.  No one, including your retired nurse, has special agency to float above the crowd.  On the other hand, some few individuals have gotten WAY out of hand, but the only protestor who has killed anyone is the guy in Charlottesville who ran down counter protestors with his car, and he's a skinhead.

We have never seen this sort of behavior by federal law enforcement before. It has typically been state and local police that have misbehaved.  Federal law enforcement has typically enforced federal law on federal property, investigated crimes committed by and against federal employees (including members of the Armed Services) in the performance of their duties; using the mail or interstate commerce (I would guess that lots of people in a federal penitentiary are there for mail fraud, bank fraud, or wire fraud because many fraudulent activities involve the use of the mail, the 'wires', or the banks -- with the consent of telecommunications companies and the financial institutions to such laws because fraudulent activities are bad business for them); violation of federal regulations in industry; and of course being a criminal fugitive especially if interstate flight to avoid prosecution. If you ever remember the TV show The FBI you will remember that the typical Bad Guy was charged with serious offenses typically against state law and "interstate flight to avoid prosecution". The latter offense is the pretext for FBI pursuit, and the FBI usually drops that charge once the perpetrator is delivered to the state in which he committed a more serious crime such as murder, rape, arson, kidnapping, or armed robbery. 

Law enforcement by federal authorities has been limited on the assumption that states themselves can adequately determine what the crimes are and try and punish offenders. Most of us know the rules. Offending the sensibilities of the President is not a crime, as the First Amendment clearly shows... although this President acts as a blatant exception.  Mark my words: something is going to go terribly wrong with a serious injury or a death as the result of some unconstitutional exercise of force, and such an incident will potentially go to the US Supreme Court. 

A hint on the judgment: Chief Justice Roberts always lets precedent decide a case.           

Classic-Xer Wrote:I listened to a real liberal (an American lefty who happened to be a black middle aged woman ) associated with the Black Lives Matter movement in Las Vegas. As old Biden would say, she seemed decent, articulate and appealing to main stream middle Americans like me which must have been rare for Democratic black people back  in 08'. She seemed pretty level headed or down home as we say  and she  seemed like an straight shooter too. According to her, Congress has a very narrow window of opportunity to get something decent (practical and mutually beneficial) passed before something mind blowing occurs and window is closed for along time. Do you know what I think, I think she knows that I'm right about America because she's hearing what we (real Americans) are saying and she knows we aren't bluffing or posting empty threats and or showing any signs of clinging to or sticking with old  laurels associated with the past. To be blunt, the politicians are spending trillions of billionaire and millionaire and American business dollars of those  who do not exist and a zillion dollar economy that doesn't exist either.

I suspect she was warning folks like you that THEIR patience was running out, and rioting can be the result.  Note: she isn't going to riot, but young hotheads certainly might.  This all started in 1619.  After 400 years of waiting for fair treatment, expecting even more patience is unrealistic.[/quote]

Americans generally accept that Donald Trump has no chance of winning honestly in November and will thus be rendered irrelevant. I almost expect a Constitutional Amendment delineating the official powers of federal law enforcement to areas and situations in which federal law enforcement have been accepted in the past -- the military, Indian Reservations, interstate commerce, federal regulations, federal employees doing their work, and federal property. Trump has chosen to establish an irresponsible federal police to enforce his political will. That has been done in many countries of a wide variety of governmental forms, and such has never worked out well. 

Even in America, if in only one State, Mississippi, with its own equivalent of the Gestapo or KGB in its "State Sovereignty Commission" intended to frustrate opposition to the official policy of segregation with the resulting degradation of the lives of black people within the state, it has gone badly. 

Donald Trump acts as if he needs despotic power to achieve his ends and serve those that he deluded with his slogan "Make America Great Again".No President before Trump has ever had such power. Such power kills democracy or its chance of emergence.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-24-2020, 03:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-24-2020, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:  Bob, my mind isn't locked and  I don't live in a state of denial either. We know longer trust or  believe in each other. So, what else is new?

You keep spouting a false set of motivations that you attribute to Democrats to justify your belief set.  I don't recognize these motivations in myself or the other liberals I know.  You do this in a way that I believe your mind is locked and in a state of denial.

What can I say?

What can you say at this point? I was watching/listening to an informative discussion by a group of different people on Fox today. The Fox show is called Outnumbered in case you'd care to watch. The discussion was about the current state that America is in right now. Now keep in mind, the discussion was between a group of various cable news people who live and work in the Washington Belt Way. The discussion was between a member of CPAC, a couple of economic analysts/ experts, a main stream American show host and a Democratic political strategist. The show host who I highly respect as a person that you would never think that I would respect based on your beliefs, said something that resonated with me as the others were acknowledging is prime for what the Liberal's want so to speak. In other words, they acknowledged we are 4T and the Liberal's have the bulk of the advantage right now. What she said that resonated with me and reminded the three about the culture that they're related too and their heritage.  She took over and she said to them, we are Americans and Americans know how to fight there way out of things. You gotta love that about America.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-24-2020, 01:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: What can you say at this point? I was watching/listening to an informative discussion by a group of different people on Fox today. The Fox show is called Outnumbered in case you'd care to watch. The discussion was about the current state that America is in right now. Now keep in mind, the discussion was between a group of various cable news people who live and work in the Washington Belt Way. The discussion was between a member of CPAC, a couple of economic analysts/ experts, a main stream American show host and a Democratic political strategist. The show host who I highly respect as a person that you would never think that I would respect based on your beliefs, said something that resonated with me as the others were acknowledging is prime for what the Liberal's want so to speak. In other words, they acknowledged we are 4T and the Liberal's have the bulk of the advantage right now. What she said that resonated with me and reminded the three about the culture that they're related too and their heritage.  She took over and she said to them, we are Americans and Americans know how to fight there way out of things. You gotta love that about America.

I ought to pick up a few Fox programs to counter the MSNBC shows I have been watching.  Hopefully Outnumbered is in a right time slot.  If nothing else, COVUS 19 has given me enough time.

And I might be worried if the reds had a recent habit of rejecting election results.  I quite believe the rural militias would go violent if the government tried to void the Second Amendment.

But it seems quite a few reds see now how it is a good idea to solve problems.  Whether it is the virus that Trump did a bad job of solving, the people rejecting violent racial policing, or the general corruption shown in the impeachment and elsewhere, Biden numbers are going up and the people that support him had to come from somewhere.  Trump and the Republicans have just discredited themselves.  There are many reasons the old values are tanking.

Now there are some reds who have drunk too much cool aid.  They don’t care how many Americans the Republicans have killed.  They don’t care about the violence committed against Americans.  They don’t care about how corrupt the Republican are visible as being.  They are ideologically blind and determined to go down with the ship.

And, sure, Americans don’t normally go down without a fight.  This might be bothersome if they had a cause to fight for.  Are they going to risk everything for selfishness?  Maybe they believe intensely in corruption?  Maybe they are willing to die for racism?  

In a crisis it is natural to be willing to sacrifice for the common good, for the old values to be recognized with revulsion and be rejected.  The movement is happening.  Most are willing to move with the times.

But some have a locked mind and are in a state of denial.