The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Classic-Xer]

(08-09-2020, 08:48 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Good people don't prejudge legal cases with calls for sentences before judgment is passed in a court of law, let alone call for a sentence more severe than is prescribed in statute. Good people do not say that they could shoot someone on  Fifth Avenue and still have respectability. Good people do not talk about grabbing women by their "kitty-cats". Back to Ike... a soldier who grabbed a woman or girl by her "kitty-cat" without her consent or assumed consent would face a court martial.  

   

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I'm the first to admit that Trump isn't a saint. As far as I know, Trump never pretended to be one either. You should also know by now that I'm not one either. I'm sorry but the Democrats suck and the Democrats have sucked my entire adult life and the Republicans haven't sucked as bad.
Plus, you should know that you're talking to a US taxpayer who has been working and paying taxes during his teenage years and entire adult life. So, spare me the sermon on the use and benefits associated with my tax dollars.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-10-2020, 12:26 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm the first to admit that Trump isn't a saint.

First? I'll admit you may have that opinion, but I imagine a lot would contest for the honor of first. More people than claim to be Sparticus?

[Bob Butler 54]

I have noted that the civil rights movement began in a high, but climaxed in the awakening. Later, the Black Lives Matter movement came in a crisis.

It seems to me that protests and demands against racism is periodic, but the period is not at all that of the S&H cycles. It is natural that anger against racism comes in spurts, that one will only remain silent and take it for so long. This factor can be stronger than the S&H cycles. It is happens when it happens, and doesn’t wait for a particular national mood.

Comments?

[pbrower2a]

(08-10-2020, 12:26 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 08:48 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Good people don't prejudge legal cases with calls for sentences before judgment is passed in a court of law, let alone call for a sentence more severe than is prescribed in statute. Good people do not say that they could shoot someone on  Fifth Avenue and still have respectability. Good people do not talk about grabbing women by their "kitty-cats". Back to Ike... a soldier who grabbed a woman or girl by her "kitty-cat" without her consent or assumed consent would face a court martial.   

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I'm the first to admit that Trump isn't a saint.As far as I know, Trump never pretended to be one either.

He certainly has proved himself to be a rogue, has he not? If I were looking to hire someone for a responsible position, even it the responsibility goes little further than that of not abusing customers and not stealing from an employer (retail sales clerk), I wouldn't hire him. He would be a sexual-harassment lawsuit waiting to happen, which could even be more harmful to my business than a significant embezzlement. If he led a platoon and I had him as a subordinate officer I would be concerned about his unit committing rapes under the fog of war, if not perpetrating a massacre of the style of My Lai. If I were an academic dean and he had impressive credentials I would have concern that females would get better grades than men -- and the same strain of VD. Maybe one can get away with more if one is the star or the boss... then again, look what happened to Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby.

Even bad guys can praise themselves, as does Damon Runyon's "Big Julie" from "East Cicero, Illinoise" in Guys and Dolls:

"Toity-tree arrests and no convictions"

   

Quote:You should also know by now that I'm not one either. I'm sorry but the Democrats suck and the Democrats have sucked my entire adult life and the Republicans haven't sucked as bad.

I have admitted to a terrible flaw as a human being. I admit my inadequacy as a person. I am not sure that I would trade some of my intellect for not having Asperger's syndrome because, I admit, I am little more than my intellect. DMS-V does not recognize homosexuality as a mental illness, and it certainly does not have "being black". I would rather be black or gay than have Asperger's syndrome so that I could have some semblance of a normal life. I would not choose anything else in the DMS-V, which includes the extreme, pathological narcissism of Donald Trump. I have no desire to hurt people... and I have disappointed many people that I know or have known. 

You are an extreme cynic about politics. I wish you would discover something else, something that to you is more life-affirming. I can state what I believe: most people, whatever their origin or social class are good people. Boring? Maybe -- but I can imagine far worse. I am sure that I am about as crashing a bore as you will find. Human institutions often elevate the worst in nature, and we must watch all of them, whether government, business, religious bodies, fraternal organizations, or private schools. Just look at what has happened to the Boy Scouts of America. It got the message -- but too late. 

As far as I am concerned the 'stars' and 'bosses' carry huge responsibility to not do bad things to people. If I were a star I might say something like:

"Maybe I can get away with a lot because I am (Tom Hanks, Mick Jagger, Simon Rattle, Steven King [the author], etc.), but some day I might not get away with it. I've seen some people do some really-stupid stuff out of arrogance, thinking that they can get away with it because they are who they are. No, I am just as human as you are, and I have my responsibilities, too. There's always someone in the news media who would love to make a name for himself by tearing me down".
    

Quote: 
Plus, you should know that you're talking to a US taxpayer who has been working and paying taxes during his teenage years and entire adult life. So, spare me the sermon on the use and benefits associated with  my tax dollars.

Just don't be a hypocrite if you call the cops on someone breaking into your car after driving to or from the Mall of America on (which branch of I-35 do you use in the Twin Cities?) Don't be a hypocrite if you call the fire department when someone's brush fire goes out of control -- or your neighbor's house catches fire (the fire department might not get there fast enough to save the house that catches fire first, but it can save the neighbors' houses, on e of which is yours.

So you started paying taxes when you were a teenager? Congratulations for not needing a college degree to do what you do.

[Eric the Green]

(08-09-2020, 07:30 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 03:46 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 02:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You must think that we live in a country like France or Germany where democracy alone determines it's national leaders and priorities.  Guess what, we don't live in a country that's set up like either of them. Here's what we are going do eventually, we are eventually going to boot a blue state or two or some blue cities from the American union and see what happens to them.

Meanwhile, here on Earth One, a lot of formerly red people are turning blue.

You ought to check every once in a while against reality before you start sharing daydreams.

Really?? I don't know a red voter who is turning blue. But, I do know several middle aged blues who are turning more red or already turned red a while ago. I assume an uppity old liberal college boy like yourself doesn't spend as much quality time interacting with fowl mouthed middle of the road/middle American college people and regular working class people these days. I think you better start checking reality vs relying on popular opinion and whatever the liberals who are paid to tell you what you want to hear are saying these days. You don't seem like the type who can handle bad news or handle accepting that you're wrong either.

You're right about me. You've been speaking with a modern day American Revolutionary who doesn't think much of the revolutionaries associated with Democratic side or think much of the Democratic party itself. People like me don't give a shit about popular opinion and tend to go by the results they see or project. You're FUCKED EITHER WAY AT THIS POINT. Do you prefer to go down with a Democrat at the helm or spared by a Republican. Dude, I don't care if Bumbling Biden and the Bumbling party run by a bunch of money/power hungry Jackasses go down hard and results in more chaos. Oh, and if our kids are called upon to serve and go in and clean up your party's fucking mess. I hope you and every other blue fool knows when its time to swallow your fucking tongue, accept reality and look the other way for you own sake.

It's always amazing to me that you and other Republicans can say that in the light of Citizens United. Have you ever heard of it? And other decisions and policies. Every supreme court judge in that case who voted to keep money in politics was appointed by a Republican president; every judge who voted to keep it out was appointed by a Democrat. Always it is the case that when proposals to take more money out of politics come up, Democrats vote for them and Republicans strenuously opposed them. The same with Wall Street Reform. So who are the money hungry Jackasses?

If you want the facts about who is turning blue and who's not, you'd better look at the polls that I post here instead of talking to a few of your neighbors out in exurban Minneapolis.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-10-2020, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If you want the facts about who is turning blue and who's not, you'd better look at the polls that I post here instead of talking to a few of your neighbors out in exurban Minneapolis.

Isn't going to happen. Accepting the facts is unacceptable given his ideological biases. He would have to think, which would be difficult to unacceptable.

[David Horn]

(08-10-2020, 02:11 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-10-2020, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If you want the facts about who is turning blue and who's not, you'd better look at the polls that I post here instead of talking to a few of your neighbors out in exurban Minneapolis.

Isn't going to happen.  Accepting the facts is unacceptable given his ideological biases.  He would have to think, which would be difficult to unacceptable.

Full honesty: sometime following the November elections we'll get tallies and answers.  Unless the data are so skewed that they are now effectively worthless, the overall winner will be the Democratic Party, with the Presidency, House retention, and enough Senate seats to hold that body as well.  But at the moment, this is still tentative.  Some bizarre October surprise is still possible, and being outrageous is a Trump feature.

[Eric the Green]

(08-09-2020, 04:39 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 12:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 10:32 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 07:39 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The AP has protesters breaking into the police union building and setting it on fire.  

So much for peaceful protest?

If they find that the 'protestors' are really members of the actual protest, then Trump just got handed campaign material beyond his dreams.  If, on the other hand, they determine that the 'protestors' are outside agitators, the opposite occurs.  I assume that both the authorities and the protest leaders are working this very hard.

Possibly so. According to Lichtman, though, such "social unrest" reflects badly on the incumbent party.

If LBJ ('68) is the model, then that's certainly true.  If it's Nixon ('72), then why did he get reelected in a landslide?

I don't know if the social unrest key was turned against Nixon in 1972. Demonstrations and riots pretty much died down a year or two before that. But even if so, Nixon probably had enough Keys in his favor. Watergate had not erupted yet, so he didn't have the scandal key against him yet. That was turned against the Republicans for the 1976 election in which they were turned out of office.

I just reviewed the Lichtman Keys for 1972 here:
http://generational-theory.com/forum/thr...l#pid55919

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-10-2020, 03:38 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-10-2020, 02:11 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-10-2020, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If you want the facts about who is turning blue and who's not, you'd better look at the polls that I post here instead of talking to a few of your neighbors out in exurban Minneapolis.

Isn't going to happen.  Accepting the facts is unacceptable given his ideological biases.  He would have to think, which would be difficult to unacceptable.

Full honesty: sometime following the November elections we'll get tallies and answers.  Unless the data are so skewed that they are now effectively worthless, the overall winner will be the Democratic Party, with the Presidency, House retention, and enough Senate seats to hold that body as well.  But at the moment, this is still tentative.  Some bizarre October surprise is still possible, and being outrageous is a Trump feature.

Yes. Agreed. Any thinking person would agree with your assessment. Still, we are talking about Classic.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-10-2020, 05:14 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-10-2020, 03:38 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-10-2020, 02:11 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-10-2020, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If you want the facts about who is turning blue and who's not, you'd better look at the polls that I post here instead of talking to a few of your neighbors out in exurban Minneapolis.

Isn't going to happen.  Accepting the facts is unacceptable given his ideological biases.  He would have to think, which would be difficult to unacceptable.

Full honesty: sometime following the November elections we'll get tallies and answers.  Unless the data are so skewed that they are now effectively worthless, the overall winner will be the Democratic Party, with the Presidency, House retention, and enough Senate seats to hold that body as well.  But at the moment, this is still tentative.  Some bizarre October surprise is still possible, and being outrageous is a Trump feature.

Yes.  Agreed.  Any thinking person would agree with your assessment.  Still, we are talking about Classic.

You're funny. Classic still thinks for a living and still spends time doing some thinking and some not so pretty/ raw posting here. Dude, I'd have to be able think like you or be dumb enough or idealistic enough or poor enough or ignorant enough or black enough or woman enough or hate Trump or hate America enough or hate the Republican or someone on the Republican side or have a government job and great benefits or a government contract that I'm really interested in order for me to go along which ain't going happen. Do know what else I see that I haven't seen before, I see a bunch of familiar faces and names of customers running for office this year. Dude, I've seen your dumb Millenials who aren't any smarter than your dumb Gen X or dumb Boomers or dumb Silents. I mean how smart do you have to be to be viewed as the one of the best of the dumb people.

[pbrower2a]

(08-09-2020, 07:30 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 03:46 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 02:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You must think that we live in a country like France or Germany where democracy alone determines it's national leaders and priorities.  Guess what, we don't live in a country that's set up like either of them. Here's what we are going do eventually, we are eventually going to boot a blue state or two or some blue cities from the American union and see what happens to them.

Meanwhile, here on Earth One, a lot of formerly red people are turning blue.

You ought to check every once in a while against reality before you start sharing daydreams.

Really?? I don't know a red voter who is turning blue. But, I do know several middle aged blues who are turning more red or already turned red a while ago. I assume an uppity old liberal college boy like yourself doesn't spend as much quality time interacting with fowl mouthed middle of the road/middle American college people and regular working class people these days. I think you better start checking reality vs relying on popular opinion and whatever the liberals who are paid to tell you what you want to hear are saying these days. You don't seem like the type who can handle bad news or handle accepting that you're wrong either.

Even I admit to frequently using conservative arguments against Donald Trump. We liberals have run out of new liberal arguments. The old ones remain valid. Even the impeachment of Donald Trump was what one would have expected conservatives to use against in some hypothetical case a liberal who sold out national security out of a misguided belief that some totalitarian state is a friend to be imitated. 

YouTube has plenty of videos showing people until recently reliably Republican in their vote baring their consciences while defending their old values while saying that they will vote for Joe Biden to defend those old values.   

Quote:You're right about me. You've been speaking with a modern day American Revolutionary who doesn't think much of the revolutionaries associated with Democratic side or think much of the Democratic party itself.

May I suggest that you get a copy of Eric Hoffer's The True Believer, a guide to political fanatics more likely to swing from one expression of fanatical, extremist politics to the supposed antipodes of his recent position rather than rejoining the sane, humane mainstream. As Hoffer puts it.

The opposite of a raging fascist is not a raging Communist. The opposite of a raging fascist is a sober liberal. Hoffer could explain why fascists and Nazis could become obedient servants of the Commies. The Commies of eastern Europe recruited from among rank-and-file the Hlinka Guard of Slovakia, the Iron Guard of Romania, the Arrow Cross of Hungary, and the Ustase of Croatia to be the brutal secret police of Commie regimes. Before that, fascists were often former extreme Leftists, including Commies. 

If you wonder who would be the most willing servants of a Commie regime in America, then look no further than the KKK.  What? The ideology is so dissimilar? Maybe the extremists are so cold and unfeeling that they need extremism to be convinced that they have identity in their beliefs. Hoffer has been dead for over forty years, but just take another look at what he says and you find fascistic brutes who served Satan Hussein going over to the similarly inhuman ISIS.  A sober liberal has rock-solid principles against which to judge public officials who turn police dogs and water cannons upon peaceful protesters. 

Another group that, I regret to say, is prone to not having any real beliefs is often the police and  Armed Services who simply obey the orders of those who pay and feed them while giving them spiffy uniforms and impressive weapons. Maybe in America and some other democracies they get the chance to understand what they are defending, but all in all most revolutions are decided (think of the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia and the Nazi takeover in Germany) when the people seizing power pay the soldiers and police. In Russia most went from being obedient servants of the Tsar to being fully committed to Lenin and his Bolsheviks within one year. 

Hoffer also tells us that the line between "revolutionary" and "reactionary" isn't so stark as most of us want to believe. Consider the Révolution nationale of Marshal Philippe Pétain. Pétain repudiated democracy, allowed a personality cult to form around him, and promoted a ferocious assault upon the French Jews. But in his "revolution" he promoted a back-to-the-land movement out of distrust of working-class toilers in modern industry. Somehow he saw himself as leader of a revolution against 'decadent' Britain, urban life, the Jews, liberalism, weakened faith, and of course democracy. 



The peasant who believes in authoritarian religion and leadership is the cornerstone of the "new" France even if technological and economic modernity needs fewer peasants and more industrial workers, clerks, and small-scale (disproportionately Jewish, of course, as is the usual case in most of the West) entrepreneurs. The truly-modern world is a place of inquiry that might disquiet people who harbor obsolete ideas and prejudices. 



In contrast to the lofty "Liberty, Equality, and Brotherhood" is the banal "work, family, and fatherland"... a rejection of capitalism, self-interest, socialist tendencies, democracy, and of course the usual target of inhuman fascism -- the Jews. Vichy France, the Petinist regime, offers stability based upon brainwashed discipline in the schools, (dictatorial) order", thrift (in view of the absence of any safety net), and courage as exemplified in some perverse legion. 

Yes, it is change, and it is radical. You might fittingly ask yourself whether your division between people living in America as "real Americans" as opposed to... I dunno... "fake" Americans or others who do not deserve to be treated as Americans and will thus be treated as aliens with no rights including any expectation of decency is a wholesome idea. What you suggest has been tried in a country with many parallels to America, and that effort to reshape that country turned out quite badly.       
     

Quote:People like me don't give a shit about popular opinion and tend to go by the results they see or project. You're F---ED EITHER WAY AT THIS POINT.

So popular opinion is wonderful when it leads to the rise of Reagan (but not Obama!), the TEA Party, and Donald Trump? Sure, popular opinion can be very wrong, which explains why we have constitutional protections against mob rule. Example: lynch mobs reliably make their decisions by popular vote within the mob. We also have Constitutional protections against a despotic or dictatorial President, and those protections typically gut his authority. Your view on politics is "my way or the highway". That's how Nero, Ivan the Terrible, Lenin, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Trujillo, Castro, Duvalier (either one), Kim (whether il-Sung, Jong-il, or Jong-un), Qaddafi, Pinochet, Videla, Satan Hussein, Mengistu, or Idi A-merderin' did things. 

Despotism and dictatorship are more effective at running up a body count than at serving the people even if the tyrannical leadership has some good intentions and fitting reforms. 

Concentration camps, shooting pits, and torture chambers will be no better in America than they were in the Third Reich for having the name "American" attached to them any more than Ted Bundy was a nicer person for being American than... oh, pick your national entity as a contrast.  

 

Quote:Do you prefer to go down with a Democrat at the helm or spared by a Republican.

Even if it were true it would be like choosing between getting COVID-19 or being bitten by a rattlesnake. Both can kill, and both can leave one badly messed up (rattlesnake bites often culminate in amputations). If we can't have another FDR, then the best that we can hope for is someone with the temperament of an Eisenhower or an Obama. It will be a while before we have the likes of a Kennedy who challenges us to do the equivalent of reaching for the stars again. We have too many practical problems to deal with yet, and the Millennial Generation is at least fifteen years from achieving political dominance. It is getting there. 

Most Americans would settle for another Obama at this point. He didn't create too many problems for us as a nation. If someone like Trump has the power to spare one personally from the worst, then we must ask whether anyone deserves the arbitrary power to do the worst to people.  

Quote:Dude, I don't care if Bumbling Biden and the Bumbling party run by a bunch of money/power hungry Jackasses go down hard and results in more chaos. Oh, and if our kids are called upon to serve and go in and clean up your party's fucking mess. I hope you and every other blue fool knows when its time to swallow your (expletive deleted) tongue, accept reality and look the other way for you own sake.

Much of American politics is setting the national budget, which explains why the Ways and Means Committee is one of the most powerful committees in Congress.  At this point the Democratic Party is far more rational, and it has principles other than the enrichment, indulgence, and power of selfish elites who see themselves as the sole measure of human merit. 

The next effective conservative Republican President will be a conservative version of Barack Obama (ethnicity and origin irrelevant) -- something like Eisenhower. Donald Trump is an unmitigated disaster, someone who demonstrates as clearly as is possible the hazard of electing an unprincipled, ignorant, selfish demagogue devoid of any ethical values.

[David Horn]

(08-10-2020, 07:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... I mean how smart do you have to be to be viewed as the one of the best of the dumb people.

You might ask your wife.

[pbrower2a]

(08-11-2020, 08:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-10-2020, 07:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... I mean how smart do you have to be to be viewed as the one of the best of the dumb people.

You might ask your wife.

People can be very smart and believe some incredibly-silly things. Think of all the intellectual effort poured into such folly as eugenics, "scientific" racism, young-earth creationism, Afrocentrism, postmodernism, Marxism-Leninism,creating 'new' religions, and Holocaust denial. One can put much intellectual effort into some completely-worthless effort such as creating an artificial language (Surprise! I could do that!)


Esperanto is sort-of-OK for what it promises. No, I am not speaking of commercial failures such as novels that could never sell. Writing, composing, and performing are low-input, high-reward activities as extreme gambles. Most screenplays are worthless.

As far as that goes, twelve-tone music is close to the category of useless efforts so far as I can tell. I can easily remember a fairly long phrase of music much longer than some twelve-tone row, but try getting me to remember that twelve-tone row. 

Truth be told, more often we have hunger pangs and will settle for a hamburger... or we need to use a toilet. Or gasoline for the commute. It doesn't take much of a brain to herd cattle around, to butcher them in a slaughterhouse, to separate the meat from the bones and put it into packages, to ship it to a store or warehouse, or to take a patty and hamburger bun with perhaps some toppings, and hand the finished product to a customer. It doesn't take much effort or thought to clean a toilet. We might not like working at such a level of intellectual stupidity, but most industrial and commercial processes seem to operate on the principle "Keep it simple, stupid!"

Maybe people put huge amounts of effort into worthless efforts than being satisfied with modest pay at a job that requires that one do little thinking because someone else has already done that. That may explain cranks who pretend to be very bright yet fall far short of the standards appropriate for academia or the highly-refined level of accomplishment necessary for creative work. So people paint portraits with strange violations of the laws of of perspective. That is not an odd vision; that is incompetence.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-11-2020, 08:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-10-2020, 07:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... I mean how smart do you have to be to be viewed as the one of the best of the dumb people.

You might ask your wife.

Are you insulting me or my wife or both?

[Classic-Xer]

(08-11-2020, 04:39 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(08-11-2020, 08:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-10-2020, 07:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... I mean how smart do you have to be to be viewed as the one of the best of the dumb people.

You might ask your wife.

People can be very smart and believe some incredibly-silly things. Think of all the intellectual effort poured into such folly as eugenics, "scientific" racism, young-earth creationism, Afrocentrism, postmodernism, Marxism-Leninism,creating 'new' religions, and Holocaust denial. One can put much intellectual effort into some completely-worthless effort such as creating an artificial language (Surprise! I could do that!)


Esperanto is sort-of-OK for what it promises. No, I am not speaking of commercial failures such as novels that could never sell. Writing, composing, and performing are low-input, high-reward activities as extreme gambles. Most screenplays are worthless.

As far as that goes, twelve-tone music is close to the category of useless efforts so far as I can tell. I can easily remember a fairly long phrase of music much longer than some twelve-tone row, but try getting me to remember that twelve-tone row. 

Truth be told, more often we have hunger pangs and will settle for a hamburger... or we need to use a toilet. Or gasoline for the commute. It doesn't take much of a brain to herd cattle around, to butcher them in a slaughterhouse, to separate the meat from the bones and put it into packages, to ship it to a store or warehouse, or to take a patty and hamburger bun with perhaps some toppings, and hand the finished product to a customer. It doesn't take much effort or thought to clean a toilet. We might not like working at such a level of intellectual stupidity, but most industrial and commercial processes seem to operate on the principle "Keep it simple, stupid!"

Maybe people put huge amounts of effort into worthless efforts than being satisfied with modest pay at a job that requires that one do little thinking because someone else has already done that. That may explain cranks who pretend to be very bright yet fall far short of the standards appropriate for academia or the highly-refined level of accomplishment necessary for creative work. So people paint portraits with strange violations of the laws of of perspective. That is not an odd vision; that is incompetence.

How about urban gentrification?

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-10-2020, 07:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You're funny. Classic still thinks for a living and still spends time doing some thinking and some not so pretty/ raw  posting here. Dude, I'd have to be able think like you or be dumb enough or idealistic enough or poor enough or ignorant enough or black enough  or woman enough or hate Trump or hate America enough or hate the Republican or someone on the Republican side or have a government job and great benefits or a government contract that I'm really interested in order for me to go along which ain't going happen. Do know what else I see that I haven't seen before, I see a bunch of familiar faces and names of customers running for office this year. Dude, I've seen your dumb Millenials who aren't any smarter than your dumb Gen X or dumb Boomers or dumb Silents. I mean how smart do you have to be to be viewed as the one of the best of the dumb people.

It is not simply intelligence or the lack thereof.  In one’s youth, one builds a world view and associated values.  These can be seen as a short cut.  One need not fully understand a problem, but force fit it into how you perceive the world works, and what you believe you should work towards.  Once a human builds a world view and values, he is highly defensive of them and seldom will change them unless he is confronted with a situation were what he has always ‘thought’ no longer works anymore.

A 4T is a time when this failure of the old values happens to a lot of people.  A lot of people who were committed to the red world view and values are looking at Trump and rejecting the old perspective. He promised to drain the swamp and instead became the chief alligator.  He encourage the KKK and Neo Nazis to come to the fore and practice their racism, thus triggering the Black Lives Matter response.  He has rejected and bypassed many of the checks and balances written in the Constitution.

Like I was waiting for the old values to collapse in the crisis heart, but how?  The theory predicted it.  How would it happen?  I wonder no longer.

Still, this has not been enough to shift everybody.  Most are elitist or racist enough to ride Trump into the ground.  Prior crises required totally burned out Atlanta, Berlin and Hiroshima to make folks consider if the old way is truly the route to be pursued.  With the lack of crisis war triggers, how would we get the equivalent ability of a burned out city to make the conservatives reconsider?

I believe there is a place for the conservatives.  I believe the Republican Voters Against Trump,  Lincoln Project and VoteVets are leaving a more than respectable place for a conservative thought pattern which will throw away the racist and elitist components of the Republican Party.  It may take some years, but it might well come.

But cities will not burn, at least not like Atlanta, Berlin or Hiroshima.  COVID is not so blatant.  Trump’s murders are more abstract, just numbers.

But there are always people who cling to the old perspective.  They just don’t matter anymore.

[David Horn]

(08-11-2020, 08:07 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-11-2020, 08:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-10-2020, 07:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... I mean how smart do you have to be to be viewed as the one of the best of the dumb people.

You might ask your wife.

Are you insulting me or my wife or both?

Normally, you don't ask the dumb one.

[pbrower2a]

(08-11-2020, 08:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-11-2020, 04:39 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(08-11-2020, 08:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-10-2020, 07:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... I mean how smart do you have to be to be viewed as the one of the best of the dumb people.

You might ask your wife.

People can be very smart and believe some incredibly-silly things. Think of all the intellectual effort poured into such folly as eugenics, "scientific" racism, young-earth creationism, Afrocentrism, postmodernism, Marxism-Leninism,creating 'new' religions, and Holocaust denial. One can put much intellectual effort into some completely-worthless effort such as creating an artificial language (Surprise! I could do that!)


Esperanto is sort-of-OK for what it promises. No, I am not speaking of commercial failures such as novels that could never sell. Writing, composing, and performing are low-input, high-reward activities as extreme gambles. Most screenplays are worthless.

As far as that goes, twelve-tone music is close to the category of useless efforts so far as I can tell. I can easily remember a fairly long phrase of music much longer than some twelve-tone row, but try getting me to remember that twelve-tone row. 

Truth be told, more often we have hunger pangs and will settle for a hamburger... or we need to use a toilet. Or gasoline for the commute. It doesn't take much of a brain to herd cattle around, to butcher them in a slaughterhouse, to separate the meat from the bones and put it into packages, to ship it to a store or warehouse, or to take a patty and hamburger bun with perhaps some toppings, and hand the finished product to a customer. It doesn't take much effort or thought to clean a toilet. We might not like working at such a level of intellectual stupidity, but most industrial and commercial processes seem to operate on the principle "Keep it simple, stupid!"

Maybe people put huge amounts of effort into worthless efforts than being satisfied with modest pay at a job that requires that one do little thinking because someone else has already done that. That may explain cranks who pretend to be very bright yet fall far short of the standards appropriate for academia or the highly-refined level of accomplishment necessary for creative work. So people paint portraits with strange violations of the laws of of perspective. That is not an odd vision; that is incompetence.

How about urban gentrification?

A shell game in which poor people get displaced. 

I remind you that American suburbs that once had very rural character have lost that. In come the apartment complexes and as a result the traffic jams. Suburban housing that WWII vets bought with VA loans has approached the end of its useful life, as has the infrastructure such as streets and sewers. 

We may be seeing a pattern more characteristic of European cities in which the industry finds its ways into the suburbs and so do the industrial workers while the big city centers become the obvious living area for white-collar workers.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-12-2020, 09:33 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: A shell game in which poor people get displaced. 

I remind you that American suburbs that once had very rural character have lost that. In come the apartment complexes and as a result the traffic jams. Suburban housing that WWII vets bought with VA loans has approached the end of its useful life, as has the infrastructure such as streets and sewers. 

We may be seeing a pattern more characteristic of European cities in which the industry finds its ways into the suburbs and so do the industrial workers while the big city centers become the obvious living area for white-collar workers.

Well, I see the cities becoming/ turning into hubs for all kinds of nasty illegal activity that Americans associate with the third world as the rest of the country recognizes it, votes to do the complete opposite and begins cracking down on all sorts of illegal activity. We are already living in two countries right now. The borders just haven't been clearly defined and established yet. Dude, I have rural/ working class characteristics like the vast majority of Americans still have today. I'm going to to give you a hint. You need to learn to be more respectful towards others these days and quit coming across as uppity, snide and prude like your parents, sibling? and the folks that you hang out with here. Do you know the difference between the mentality of a coddled  American immigrant who has been promised or granted special protections and the American citizen whose American ancestors, American grand parents, American parents, American siblings have worked or fought (not literally) for everything they have their entire lives. If you don't know, I'd suggest that you start learning the difference because that's what your side (the Democratic side) is dealing with today.  This election is going to symbolize a parting of ways and result in a massive parting of ways between values and no values. This is going to boil down to America's choice or the Liberal's choice and your the poor person with the mental handicap who doesn't understand that or realize it which I do feel sorry about but know that I can't do anything about at this point.

[Eric the Green]

(08-12-2020, 03:09 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-12-2020, 09:33 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: A shell game in which poor people get displaced. 

I remind you that American suburbs that once had very rural character have lost that. In come the apartment complexes and as a result the traffic jams. Suburban housing that WWII vets bought with VA loans has approached the end of its useful life, as has the infrastructure such as streets and sewers. 

We may be seeing a pattern more characteristic of European cities in which the industry finds its ways into the suburbs and so do the industrial workers while the big city centers become the obvious living area for white-collar workers.

Well, I see the cities becoming/ turning into hubs for all kinds of nasty illegal activity that Americans associate with the third world as the rest of the country recognizes it, votes to do the complete opposite and begins cracking down on all sorts of illegal activity. We are already living in two countries right now. The borders just haven't been clearly defined and established yet. Dude, I have rural/ working class characteristics like the vast majority of Americans still have today. I'm going to to give you a hint. You need to learn to be more respectful towards others these days and quit coming across as uppity, snide and prude like your parents, sibling? and the folks that you hang out with here. Do you know the difference between the mentality of a coddled American immigrant who has been promised or granted special protections and the American citizen whose American ancestors, American grand parents, American parents, American siblings have worked or fought (not literally) for everything they have their entire lives. If you don't know, I'd suggest that you start learning the difference because that's what your side (the Democratic side) is dealing with today.  This election is going to symbolize a parting of ways and result in a massive parting of ways between values and no values. This is going to boil down to America's choice or the Liberal's choice and you're the poor person with the mental handicap who doesn't understand that or realize it which I do feel sorry about but know that I can't do anything about at this point.

It's your red state areas that insist on having all the guns and thus have more violent illegal activity.

There is no difference between new and old immigrants, and you had better start accepting that and stop calling the new immigrants coddled, or you are going to be left out of the new America. I know it's an adjustment for us whities, but you will live in a more globalized society whether you like it or not, and yours and Trump's racist walls won't stop this.