The Partisan Divide on Issues

[pbrower2a]

(08-27-2020, 03:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 01:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 01:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 08:14 AM)taramarie Wrote: Whoah this place is really turning to shit. Opening up the door and walking back out and back to animation studies. I will say this. No matter the side, both can and do have extremists. Instead of pointing finger, maybe address ones own flaws and the other side too otherwise it is a back and forth blindness. Good luck America. On the plus side for me, i am getting my green card in a couple of days and will be a European permanent resident as well as a kiwi citizen. Hope all are well here.

Polar opposites don't attract, oil and water doesn't mix, good and evil don't embrace and join hands  and that's what you're seeing here today.

Your platitudes are right... but Donald Trump really is a hideous example of a man and especially a leader. Let's start with how he treats about half of humanity... One well-recognized platitude is "Thou shalt not commit adultery".







If Trump shows such frequent, flagrant disloyalty to a spouse, then what does that say about him? I can understand divorce and remarriage because people can make terrible judgment in marriage. (spouse is abusive or criminal... or frigid).

So, how are his ex wives doing these days? Are there any living off welfare these days? Are there any of their children living off welfare or any of his grand children living off welfare these days?

 
Having seen the effects of the Sexual Revolution... I can assure you that a stable family life is worth far more to a child than is a huge array of electronic goodies, nice clothes, a car paid-for as a present for reaching the legal age for driving, extensive (if chaperoned) travel, and even a first-rate education. I live in Amish country, and I recognize theirs as a world of deprivations that I would find unpleasant in the extreme. On the other hand... they aren't as messed up as many 'English' kids who supposedly get all the advantages. So they are isolated from the really perverse stuff? 

Where I live many of the grocery stores have hitching posts for the horses. Heck, one day this week I was actually at a (brand-name excised) drive through right behind an Old Order Amish family that went out for dinner... in the only going out that I still consider safe. 

Their world offers practically no privacy. Everyone seems to know what everyone else is doing. For real privacy be in an urban crowd in which nobody cares what you are doing unless it does something immediately hurtful. Education is limited to age 16, and there are no electronic entertainments. Maybe they have a radio for news and for weather warnings... and they now have cell phones. But if you are a rake, you don;t belong among them. A hint: the strip club and the 'adult book' store nearest me do not have hitching posts.  


DIVORCE HURTS CHILDREN. 


They become nastier people -- more cynical and manipulative. Kids know the tricks -- when visiting the family of the non-custodial ex, make sure to dress in rags and have too few clothes. Count on nice clothes given by the custodian's father-in-law and mother-in-law. 

To be sure, some marriages are disasters certain to end in divorce -- violent relationships, one spouse fails to grow up while the other does, one falls to addictive behaviors. Some cultural barriers are just too big for the spouses to deal with -- not that they knew so to begin with. 
  
With the qualification of same-sex relationships, the optimal marriage is one man, one wife for life. So marry your high-school sweetheart or college flame, and stay together. I see a big problem in which some man on the fast track to economic success and class privilege marries as a young man a woman who looks as if she could be a Playmate of the Month... only to dump her when they are both around forty for a new model who looks like another Playmate of the Month. His new wife is just slightly older than his oldest child. Talk about a mess! Former Wifey gets a house that she really can't afford to keep and perhaps a five-year-old sports car that poorly suits her needs. He was going to trade the five-year-old sports car anyway. Kids brought up in such a scenario never get to learn the values of loyalty and commitment. They become helpless materialists who could never get ahead without a corrupt advantage... and guess who gets the chance to join the fast track? Yeah, sure, the talented kid who has good college grades and a solid work ethic. (OK, if you believe that I can get you a new 2021 Oldsmobile today!)

[Bob Butler 54]

Rachel Maddow was one of MSNBC's chairs on the Republican convention, part of the same team that covered the Democrats.  At the end of Trump's climax speech she did a summary fact check.  I guess it is as clear of example of how much Trump counts on lies, on creating a false reality for his base.

I noted the chairs, three ladies, seem to have got drunk on peanut butter cups during the convention.  You could not watch, apparently, without laughing.  The criminal event violated the Hatch Act, was a maskless high density super spreader for COVUS, and was saturated with lies.

I am still wondering if the RNC will create a positive or negative 'bounce' in the polls.

[Eric the Green]

(08-28-2020, 07:47 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Rachel Maddow was one of MSNBC's chairs on the Republican convention, part of the same team that covered the Democrats.  At the end of Trump's climax speech she did a summary fact check.  I guess it is as clear of example of how much Trump counts on lies, on creating a false reality for his base.

I noted the chairs, three ladies, seem to have got drunk on peanut butter cups during the convention.  You could not watch, apparently, without laughing.  The criminal event violated the Hatch Act, was a maskless high density super spreader for COVUS, and was saturated with lies.

I am still wondering if the RNC will create a positive or negative 'bounce' in the polls.

Yeah, me too. It's hard to tell until a couple of days later at least. So far, it seemed like Trump got a bounce, according to 538, but now he has lost it. So, we'll see....

[Eric the Green]

(08-27-2020, 03:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how are his ex wives doing these days? Are there any living off welfare these days? Are there any of their children living off welfare or any of his grand children living off welfare these days?

That is the deadliest sin, to a typical Republican like Classic Xer.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-27-2020, 08:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 07:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yep. There are those who are obsessed with looting and violence these days. We also have a political party that's either politically handcuffed for obvious reasons pertaining to race or creed or directly viewed as in cahoots with them as well. And yes, there are those who will resort or support those who resort to violence as a means to detour them or as means to defend themselves, their families, their communities, and so forth. Lets see, we earned our freedom with violence. The Texans earned their freedom with violence. The slaves were freed with violence. The Imperialist Japanese and Nazi Germany were conquered with violence and the Soviet Union was cutoff, isolated and contained by an understanding of America's history and American willingness/preference to fight wars abroad as a means to defend/protect the American homeland. So, whose territory am I in right now?

You are in the Industrial Age.  All the examples you gave are in the Industrial Age.  Well, the exception is containing the Soviet Union, and they fell due to non violence but have reverted to autocratic rule, so I'm not sure if they can be placed reliably as an Information Age culture.  Putin will eventually fall.  We will have to see how he falls.  Will a war be necessary?

In the Information Age you try non violence first, and if it succeeds great.  If you have to escalate, you escalate.  If the government is clinging to the old values is absolutely dedicated to the old values and is unwilling to change, and there is no peaceful way of transferring power, you resort to violence.  

Some still look at the Industrial Age to develop their view of how the universe works.  Some are carried on by their hunter gatherer genes, divide into us and them instinctively, and will use violence freely on the other group as they are bred to do.  When they think Americans, they think some subset of Americans who think like they do.  To them Americans doesn't mean all those who live in America.  America is given a perverted meaning.

I would suggest with my trying to combine turnings, ages, civilizations and behavioral science, I have warned people to be aware of shifting ages.  Thus, you are on my territory.

We do differ on who benefits from violence.  I see Trump as playing the fear card, of dividing Americans into us and them, of playing up the old us and them hunter gatherer instincts.  Biden is trying to unite all Americans who are listening, is trying to resolve things with protest and legislation rather than violence.  As I see a strong possibility that Biden and the Democrats will succeed in using protest and legislation to solve problems like COVID and violent racist policing, there is absolutely no need for violence save as a subtle threat.  

Even Martin Luther King listened occasionally to Malcom X.  Even he let his anger carry him away from time to time.  While I do not endorse the violence, I am not surprised by it.  It is in our nature as humans.  The threat of it enhances the protest and legislate process.  If violence wasn't a background threat, the establishment would be less inclined to cave.  This is not to say I am enthusiastic about wallowing in violence, or think the police shouldn't make it hard on those who choose to walk the violent path.  But, unfortunately, cultures are stubborn.  The more conservative folk will not collapse their privileged perspective as quickly if the violence isn't there.

That does not mean about every four score and seven years a new birth of freedom doesn't come.  You should have picked that up that from turning theory if nothing else.

Well, I think it's pretty clear that the incident with George Floyd and violence that followed benefited Biden and the Democratic establishment early on but as the violence has continued to drag on for whatever reason (complete incompetence, social or racial indifference among Democrats, political gains and financial gains associated with advancement, ideological support) for months the tide seems to have shifted enough to force an old Democrat off his couch and begin opening his mouth and condemning the violence and the people responsible for it like we've been doing for month. I already told you that I'd rather have Churchill than Chamberlain at this point. But, we're different people. I don't know which would be worse for old Biden and his token side kick, being defeated or being hounded, criticized and picked apart by Donald Trump.

[Bob Butler 54]

While Rachel focused on the lying, CNN's SE Cupp described the RNC climax as a 'maskless display of idiocy".

That is, unfortunately, more factual reporting than stating an opinion.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-28-2020, 03:09 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 03:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how are his ex wives doing these days? Are there any living off welfare these days? Are there any of their children living off welfare or any of his grand children living off welfare these days?

That is the deadliest sin, to a typical Republican like Classic Xer.

Yep, there is nothing worse in this world than a lowly deadbeat male who believes he's entitled to something that he can't earn himself. It's to bad that you aren't black and you weren't born in the hood, at least you'd have an excuse.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-27-2020, 03:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 12:01 PM)CH86 Wrote: Those claiming Trump Wants protests to escalate are talking nonsense. The protests do nothing to advance any governmental agenda, and his poll numbers declined by over 10 points when the protests began (they have recovered in the last couple weeks due to the DNC going full SJW with the VP selection). The DNC has far more ulterior motive to stir up renewed protests because if the protests fizzle out before the election many Younger Blacks and Younger Latinos would otherwise be attracted to vote Trump in a fully rational voting process. The DNC has far more motives to continuously stir up tensions and the inevitable irrational thought processes that generates so as to prevent a mass demexit otherwise. It is the scarecrow strategy being implemented here. Biden is weaker than Trump on actual policies, and must change the subject to emotional cultural issues rather than policy.

I think Trump wants to escalate the violence. I assume his people have restrained him a bit, or he is cautious enough not to go whole hog on this. But doing nothing about the cop killings assures more violence will continue on both sides. We see it escalating in Kenosha, and that suits Trump's purpose just fine. The protests have advanced the agenda toward police reform in some places, but no real advancement on virtually anything can happen under the current 40-year-old neo-liberal stalemate in congress. Something has to break through, and I am still holding to my prediction that something will-- if not this year, then during the next 4 years.

Younger black and hispanic voters will not turn toward Trump. You certainly harbor strange notions, Cynic Hero. It must be fun for you living in your own reality. Older folks may turn to Trump, since they are responsive to fear. The protests have helped the Democratic cause, but they happened for sincere reasons. Murders by cops are outrageous violations of our rights, which you CH don't care about.

Biden got a slight bump of about a point from the DNC, and I don't think his VP selection helped or hurt him much. It was a poor selection, and he did limit his choices in order to appeal to his base, but the negative effect of that lies in the future. The bump seems to have evaporated already, and it remains to be seen whether a Trump Bump happens after his blowhard speech tonight. The fears and lies he puts out have a hypnotic effect on the ignorant and poorly informed, poorly-educated portion of the American electorate, which is way too large.

The lack of a Republican platform this year is a flagrant admission that they only "principle" they stand for is fealty to the dear leader. Violating the law by holding the convention at the White House shows that rule of law is not a priority for them either, and that Republicans are fine with breaking the law as long as it is their side doing it. But if Bill Clinton is embarrassed by a private affair there, then he must be impeached by dozens of Republicans who do the same stuff and worse and lie about it too.

He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-28-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

You can on the positive side promote democracy, human rights and equality. On the less abstract level, you can stop murdering them. The Republicans, some of them, do not want to do this. Years of oppression has become a habit. The do not want to stop their assumption of superiority or grant what they take for granted for themselves.

In short, we were bred to see us and them and oppress them. If conservatives want so badly to oppress, is it a wonder that their values are going kapt?

[Classic-Xer]

(08-28-2020, 09:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

You can on the positive side promote democracy, human rights and equality.  On the less abstract level, you can stop murdering them.  The Republicans, some of them, do not want to do this.  Years of oppression has become a habit.  The do not want to stop their assumption of superiority or grant what they take for granted for themselves.

In short, we were bred to see us and them and oppress them.  If conservatives want so badly to oppress, is it a wonder that their values are going kapt?

I don't care what the Democrats pass, as long as we have black citizens and police, we are going to have some incidents between some black people and cops that result in death. I think Tucker Carlson said that we had about eight incidents that occurred across the entire country last year. I'm sorry but that ain't much of a problem in my opinion considering twice as many were killed by each other in Chicago last weekend. You don't know shit. All you know is what the new popular trend on the Democratic side is and which bandwagon you're supposed to jump on and fully support at this point. Personally, I don't think the uppity black mayor of Chicago really cares about the ghetto blacks. I think she places herself and her wife and her wealthier liberal neighbors above them in importance as she lectures us and blames us for not caring about them as much as she, her wife and her neighbors care about them. Fuck her.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-28-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't care what the Democrats pass, as long as we have black citizens and police, we are going to have some incidents between some black people and cops that result in death.

The old values tend to go away in a 4T. If you paid any attention over the years you would know this. The worst problems the culture faces go away. If you want to make yourself part of that, OK, but being the odd man out ain't pretty.

[pbrower2a]

(08-27-2020, 07:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 03:28 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 02:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 02:10 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Braaaaak, buck buck buck.

As I recall, the last time you fucked up and pissed me off and learned where you ranked with me as far as your importance and your overall contribution to society, you hid/disappeared for quite a while afterwards. Oh, and when you returned, you spent more time trying to appeal and trying to be more able to relate and accept bad information or news that directly relates to you and the side that you have chosen and have continued to blindly support regardless of the circumstances or obvious changes that are needed for people other than you or the typical Democratic supporter or Democratic fan  today.

I took a little vacation?  I might have, at that.  If so it was frustration at trying to hold a debate by one who doesn't bother to check against reality.  Still, I have to do something in a time where so many of my other commitments have been canceled by the bug.  I hate to tell you, but it didn't have anything to do with my putting a dent in your self image.  That resulted in a few giggles, nothing more.

Braaaaak, buck buck buck.

I think one differences between how we see the problem is in how we divide among motivations.  I separate groups with different motivations.  The violent racist cops, the federal secret police, the police, the military, Black Lives Matter, the Boogaloo Bois, the KKK, the Neo Nazi, Antifa, the SJWs, the Trumpists, the establishment Republicans, the Tea Party, etc...  In between there is often a blurring of motives.  The more sets of motives one includes, the more your perspective is harder to understand.  The fewer you use, the more the motives are confused.  I'm trying to include enough motivations to be inclusive, but am frustrated when one give for example Black Lives Matter the Boogaloo Bois motives, or assumes Antifa is active when they were opposed to the missing in action KKK and Neo Nazi.  If you lock onto blatant misunderstandings like that, how can there be communication?

You get different sorts of people interested in different things about the turning theory.  Many blues are interested in the possibility of periodic radical change, about a new birth of freedom every four score and seven years.  How does that come about?  What happens to the people who used to share the old values?

On the other hand, there are those obsessed with violence.   You are a prime example.  Xenakis is concerned with xenophobia as it used to exist in the Industrial Age, and does not care or seem to notice that we are not in that age anymore.  S&H made many insightful observations about what happened in the past.  They are sloppy about asking if the observations are true anymore.  If violence used to be necessary to make changes, is it truly necessary anymore?  If you can institute a change with non violence, is it prudent to try that first?

Yet many fans are in one way or another obsessed by the violence rich observation of past times.  They welcome the possibility of violence without noticing the periodic new births of freedom.  I for one am expecting a new birth of freedom.

I think that is much of the difference between us.  Some will see a 4T coming and be fascinated by the possibility of violence.  Others, so long as they can get their new birth of freedom, will use violence only as a last resort.  It could prove necessary if the old thinking is enough in opposition to listening to the new values.  They might refuse to hear.  The might refuse to change.  You have to change to get a new birth of freedom.

Right now, I see a path to get the new birth of freedom while avoiding the violence.  That seems the obvious win.  To one who is obsessed with the dream of violence and doesn't care about a new birth of freedom?  He wouldn't want see it.

Fortunately...  Braaaaak, buck buck buck.

Yep. There are those who are obsessed with looting and violence these days. We also have a political party that's either politically handcuffed for obvious reasons pertaining to race or creed or directly viewed as in cahoots with them as well. And yes, there are those who will resort or support those who resort to violence as a means to detour them or as means to defend themselves, their families, their communities, and so forth. Lets see, we earned our freedom with violence. The Texans earned their freedom with violence. The slaves were freed with violence. The Imperialist Japanese and Nazi Germany were conquered with violence and the Soviet Union was cutoff, isolated and contained by an understanding of America's history and American willingness/preference to fight wars abroad as a means to defend/protect the American homeland. So, whose territory am I in right now?

Let me discuss some reliable constituencies for the Democratic party as it now stands.

1. The Black bourgeoisie, a/k/a the Talented Tenth in the time of Booker T. Washington. This group has expanded, but much of it still is employed in government, or if it is not in government employment, relies heavily upon public payments for serving people on welfare, such as defense attorneys, grocery-store owners whose customers rely heavily upon food aid, medical providers who may get much of their income from Medicaid or Medicare (which means that it is more concerned with keeping Big Government serving people than cutting taxes). 

The biggest fault that white racists can find with them is that they do the worst possible thing (by racist standards)  to white people -- marrying them and having children by them. These people have much influence upon poor blacks as the only people that poor blacks can generally trust. 

As a rule the Black Bourgeoisie is well-educated, indeed better-educated than America as a whole. Trump is the most anti-intellectual President ever, but that will apply to other groups that I mention. 

2. Middle-class Hispanics not of Cuban origin. They were drifting R as they assimilated into Anglo culture, although they might have found Obama particularly attractive as someone who embraced diversity. Then came Trump, who said horrible things. White racists can't distinguish middle-class Hispanics from poor Hispanics. Such people, when meeting the Hispanic wife of some unambiguously white person might think that "Mrs. Maria (nee Gonzalez) Hansen" is "the maid" and demand that "the maid" get "Mrs. Hansen" instead. (OK, if you are black or Hispanic, it might be a good idea to never wear casual clothing at home". Middle-class Hispanics not of Cuban origin know enough that antipathy toward poor Hispanics can easily extend to them. The Democrats better serve the interests of non-Cuban Hispanics in elevating poor Hispanics. 

3. East and Southeast Asians. OK, so you are unlikely to confuse Koreans and Filipinos, but at least there is some cultural connection. As groups they are model minorities... and paradoxically, model minorities are the people most at risk from anger-laden, nativist populism. See also Jews. More successful than Americans as a whole, and often associated with cultures difficult for self-described "real Americans" to understand and relate, they may rightly see themselves as objects of hatred when the economy collapses. Note well that in the last economic meltdown, politicians of both sides of the mainstream Democratic-Republic divide stayed clear of ethnic and religious bigotry more likely to create victims than solutions. Incarceration of Japanese-Americans in World War II and anti-Chinese bigotry in some other places (like Indonesia in 1965 for Communism and in 1998 for being excessively-successful as capitalists... there's another group that has had such used against them) is a warning. It is far easier to get along as a minority and avoid massacres and persecutions if that minority is oppressed and exploited because it will get protection by those who benefit from such oppression and exploitation. But if they prosper they are targets for looting and robbery should social stability break down.

4. South Asians. Separated from East and Southeast Asians because they would never be confused by appearance or culture with East and Southeast Asians. They might be safe when the other is under threat -- or vice-versa. Otherwise what I said about East and Southeast Asians applies. 

5. Muslim Americans. Aside from African-American converts, generally better off than Americans as a whole. Islamophobia is real, and our current President has turned the burner up on that bigotry without obvious cause for doing so. They were trending R; that is over under Trump. 

6. Jews.  It's hard to believe that anyone can still incorporate conspiracy theories about Jews plotting to take over the world and establish a "Jew [sic!] World Order" in which they alone take all the desirable opportunities (there simply aren't enough Jews to do that), or, should they fail at that, bring about "Jewish Bolshevism" to ruin everyone else in anger. If anyone is still foolish enough to believe that individual successes of Jews in everything from small business to law to music to academia to politics to cultural creation are not the result of individual effort... well, there are hucksters still peddling antisemitic garbage. Until the two left-wing causes of Bolshevism and Black Power emerged, mistreatment of Jews ordinarily came from conservative, traditionalist figures who preferred to keep all the fruits of agricultural and industrial productivity to themselves without competition from people unlike themselves as well as any challenges of the agrarian or industrial proletariat against plutocracy. Conservatives like Churchill, Thatcher, and either Bush did avoid antisemitism and get clean records from Jews. On the other hand, conservatives demanding an inequitable, repressive, conformist society from the Inquisitors to Russian tsars to Nazis to the KKK have typically been hostile to Jews and Judaism. Judaism has never been a perfectly-safe way of life even if it is far superior to Jew-haters in ethical, scientific, and philosophical content. 

Jews probably were drifting R in part because of converts who accepted the religion but could never assimilate the ways of the shtetl and because America was largely becoming safer to be a Jew. Then comes the Alt-Right with so hideous an appeal as "Jews will not replace us!" Enough said.  

6. LGBT people. To put it tamely, homophobia is not a family value; it is a dangerous attitude. Even if you are straight it should scare the Hell out of you because gay-bashers are unlikely to believe your protest that you are straight. The problem isn't that you aren't 'straight' enough; the problem is the violent hatred. Gay-bashing is lawless behavior, and more Americans are coming to that conclusion. There are still people who have yet to recognize that homophobia has no ethical defense. LGBT rights means that people of the same gender can love each other and get away with it -- if consenting adults. Mainstream LGBT people of course sacrificed the child-molesting pervs, so I don't know where the child-molesting pervs go except to prison.  

Donald Trump is a corrupt bigot with a loose hold on rationality and no morals.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-28-2020, 10:32 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't care what the Democrats pass, as long as we have black citizens and police, we are going to have some incidents between some black people and cops that result in death.

The old values tend to go away in a 4T.  If you paid any attention over the years you would know this.  The worst problems the culture faces go away.  If you want to make yourself part of that, OK, but being the odd man out ain't pretty.

What values do you see going away? Do you see the rule of law going away? Do you see our values going away? You better think harder than you normally do because you're response may determine whether you live or die because it's pretty clear that it's my group who are going to be the decision makers because you've already determined that we are the strongest group in the United States of America today. I see a political party that's now mainly Progressive that seems to be of on the verge of imploding and I see the other party seems to have transitioned enough to take its place and stabilize most of the country.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-29-2020, 12:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: 1. The Black bourgeoisie, a/k/a the Talented Tenth in the time of Booker T. Washington. This group has expanded, but much of it still is employed in government, or if it is not in government employment, relies heavily upon public payments for serving people on welfare, such as defense attorneys, grocery-store owners whose customers rely heavily upon food aid, medical providers who may get much of their income from Medicaid or Medicare (which means that it is more concerned with keeping Big Government serving people than cutting taxes). 

The biggest fault that white racists can find with them is that they do the worst possible thing (by racist standards)  to white people -- marrying them and having children by them. These people have much influence upon poor blacks as the only people that poor blacks can generally trust. 

As a rule the Black Bourgeoisie is well-educated, indeed better-educated than America as a whole. Trump is the most anti-intellectual President ever, but that will apply to other groups that I mention. 

Biden's group. I assume that this is the group that saved Joe Biden from being eliminated from contention and determined the color of skin of his running mate as well. I don't know how well educated they are compared to my older brother or someone like Rani or several other successful professionals with college degrees that I happen to know personally as well. I assume they weren't fond of the idea of having a white communist/socialist believing Jew associated with global interests that may not match their interests in charge of deciding who gets the most tax dollars and so forth when they know what they're going to get with Biden. In short, the big government side is as greedy when it comes to money as the private sector side. The main difference is the private sector side owns its money. Now, you have some private sectors on your side like Nancy's husband and so forth. Now, if you were to have to choose between providing welfare programs or water that people can drink knowing we can no longer afford both, which one would you pick? I'd like to see if you'd pick the same one as me. Now, shit happens as we all know and there's always a chance that we might need welfare. I've had shit happen with me a few times where I came close to needing welfare.

[Eric the Green]

(08-28-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 09:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

You can on the positive side promote democracy, human rights and equality.  On the less abstract level, you can stop murdering them.  The Republicans, some of them, do not want to do this.  Years of oppression has become a habit.  The do not want to stop their assumption of superiority or grant what they take for granted for themselves.

In short, we were bred to see us and them and oppress them.  If conservatives want so badly to oppress, is it a wonder that their values are going kapt?

I don't care what the Democrats pass, as long as we have black citizens and police, we are going to have some incidents between some black people and cops that result in death.

Why do you say this?

Quote:I think Tucker Carlson said that we had about eight incidents that occurred across the entire country last year. I'm sorry but that ain't much of a problem in my opinion considering twice as many were killed by each other in Chicago last weekend.

I don't trust Tucker Carlson as a reporter; he is biased.

By quantity, this may not seem like much of a problem, if your figures are right. But it happens often enough that blacks are afraid to walk the streets for fear of being killed by police. Also, racial profiling causes many to be pulled over, and the fear that they may be shot or otherwise hurt or killed is always there. And this is threatening, damaging and hurtful to black people. Because of this, black people are angry and on edge about these frequent and continuing incidents.

The way I look at it, if police can pull over and kill somebody for no reason, as happens to many black people, that is a violation of my rights. Chief of Staff Mark Meadows said this week on PBS that he is not black, so he can't relate to how black people feel about this threat. But that just shows racial bias. We are all human beings, so it is not hard to relate to the threat of being stopped and killed by police for no reason. And it happens to whites too, as Michael Bell personally related about his son in 2004 in Kenosha tonight on Democracy Now. If police can do this, and get away with it (as they have usually done up until now), then I am concerned that we might live in a police state. Many share my concern.

Quote:You don't know shit. All you know is what the new popular trend on the Democratic side is and which bandwagon you're supposed to jump on and fully support at this point. Personally, I don't think the uppity black mayor of Chicago really cares about the ghetto blacks. I think she places herself and her wife and her wealthier liberal neighbors above them in importance as she lectures us and blames us for not caring about them as much as she, her wife and her neighbors care about them. Fuck her.

Political alliances are necessary in order to accomplish anything. So white liberals and black liberals must join together and work together and support each other's aims and concerns in order to win. And a liberal philosophy joins us together in mutual understanding.

[Eric the Green]

(08-28-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 03:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 12:01 PM)CH86 Wrote: Those claiming Trump Wants protests to escalate are talking nonsense. The protests do nothing to advance any governmental agenda, and his poll numbers declined by over 10 points when the protests began (they have recovered in the last couple weeks due to the DNC going full SJW with the VP selection). The DNC has far more ulterior motive to stir up renewed protests because if the protests fizzle out before the election many Younger Blacks and Younger Latinos would otherwise be attracted to vote Trump in a fully rational voting process. The DNC has far more motives to continuously stir up tensions and the inevitable irrational thought processes that generates so as to prevent a mass demexit otherwise. It is the scarecrow strategy being implemented here. Biden is weaker than Trump on actual policies, and must change the subject to emotional cultural issues rather than policy.

I think Trump wants to escalate the violence. I assume his people have restrained him a bit, or he is cautious enough not to go whole hog on this. But doing nothing about the cop killings assures more violence will continue on both sides. We see it escalating in Kenosha, and that suits Trump's purpose just fine. The protests have advanced the agenda toward police reform in some places, but no real advancement on virtually anything can happen under the current 40-year-old neo-liberal stalemate in congress. Something has to break through, and I am still holding to my prediction that something will-- if not this year, then during the next 4 years.

Younger black and hispanic voters will not turn toward Trump. You certainly harbor strange notions, Cynic Hero. It must be fun for you living in your own reality. Older folks may turn to Trump, since they are responsive to fear. The protests have helped the Democratic cause, but they happened for sincere reasons. Murders by cops are outrageous violations of our rights, which you CH don't care about.

Biden got a slight bump of about a point from the DNC, and I don't think his VP selection helped or hurt him much. It was a poor selection, and he did limit his choices in order to appeal to his base, but the negative effect of that lies in the future. The bump seems to have evaporated already, and it remains to be seen whether a Trump Bump happens after his blowhard speech tonight. The fears and lies he puts out have a hypnotic effect on the ignorant and poorly informed, poorly-educated portion of the American electorate, which is way too large.

The lack of a Republican platform this year is a flagrant admission that they only "principle" they stand for is fealty to the dear leader. Violating the law by holding the convention at the White House shows that rule of law is not a priority for them either, and that Republicans are fine with breaking the law as long as it is their side doing it. But if Bill Clinton is embarrassed by a private affair there, then he must be impeached by dozens of Republicans who do the same stuff and worse and lie about it too.

He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

The Republicans did not say he is running on the same platform as in 2016. To say this would contradict his (false) claim that he has fulfilled his promises. There is no platform at all, period. The lack of a Republican platform this year is a flagrant admission that they only "principle" they stand for is fealty to the dear leader. They just assume that they will support whatever he dictates.

You can look up what Biden proposes on his website, and I'm sure the Democratic Party platform is probably available online by now as well. I can't do all your homework for you, and I'm sure we have spelled out what the Democratic Party offers here by now anyway. I can't help it if conservatives have bad memories or don't read.

[Eric the Green]

(08-28-2020, 05:20 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 03:09 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 03:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how are his ex wives doing these days? Are there any living off welfare these days? Are there any of their children living off welfare or any of his grand children living off welfare these days?

That is the deadliest sin, to a typical Republican like Classic Xer.

Yep, there is nothing worse in this world than a lowly deadbeat male who believes he's entitled to something that he can't earn himself. It's to bad that you aren't black and you weren't born in the hood, at least you'd have an excuse.

Not being a typical Republican, I think there are a lot worse things in this world. Like tyranny and violation of human rights, for one thing. And destruction of our environment, for another. And poverty, for another.

And yet you wrote in another post that you had some hard times and may have gone on welfare yourself. The fact is, welfare safety nets protect us all. Yes, water is a first priority, but welfare protection is worth supporting.

I don't disagree with provisions that people who get welfare who can work should seek work, if the requirements are not too onerous, like the requirements we currently have since Gingrich, or the scapegoating of welfare mothers that I've seen you and others do. And a universal basic income guarantee is something to consider, especially in an automated economy. But that would not be for a few deadbeat males, but for everyone equally.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-29-2020, 12:18 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: What values do you see going away?

I see the systematic racial violence going away in policing.  I see the ignoring of problems and science going away, with problems like COVID and global warming.  In a 4T you decisively solve problems rather than pretending they do not exist.  Not much can happen with the White House and senate blocking reform, but that seems on path to change.

But I have said this many times, and you have declined to hear many times.  But, you are ideologically blind and simply do not listen to what you would not care to hear.

(08-29-2020, 12:18 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do you see the rule of law going away?

No.  Again, and I realize your ideological blindness makes it hard for you to listen to what I have said many times before, the way to handle protest is to give people what they demand rather than use violence to suppress their desires.  Non violence can work with government that listens.  Violence given our hunter gatherer gene pool will tend to surface if the government is not listening.  Many folks would prefer to avoid violence, especially in the Information Age, save as a last resort.  This means we have to be patient a few months more.  Not all believe we have reached the last resort yet.

This is especially true if you are pushing for Democracy, human rights and equality.  I have often heard people mention justice lately, which I traditionally haven't, but it could be added.   If you are striving for racial oppression and a huge division of wealth you get into trouble.

(08-29-2020, 12:18 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do you see our values going away?

Many of them.  Racial violent policing.  Small government and reduced domestic spending as a way of keeping America not great.  The special privilege and place of certain elites and races.  The division of wealth.  

These are not the only things rural conservatives care about.  Living in low population areas where many problems do not exist, it is natural for some to value independence over cooperation.  Where there are wide open spaces and low population density, many problems are less visible, and thus people are less inclined to act on them.  

The belief that there are no weapons worth regulating, that the militia is the proper defense for a free state, is apt to stick, even if it contradicts the needs of modern people living in dense areas.  There is room for compromise and in an era of real problem solving it might even happen, but if you need military grade weapons to go target shooting, hunt deer or protect yourself, that seems somewhat excessive.  If the founding fathers thought there existed no weapons that the general public should not wield in an age where natives walked the woods and enemy ships prowled the waters, they had not conceived of nukes.  Times have changed.  Some people haven't.

[pbrower2a]

(08-29-2020, 01:59 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 12:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: 1. The Black bourgeoisie, a/k/a the Talented Tenth in the time of Booker T. Washington. This group has expanded, but much of it still is employed in government, or if it is not in government employment, relies heavily upon public payments for serving people on welfare, such as defense attorneys, grocery-store owners whose customers rely heavily upon food aid, medical providers who may get much of their income from Medicaid or Medicare (which means that it is more concerned with keeping Big Government serving people than cutting taxes). 

The biggest fault that white racists can find with them is that they do the worst possible thing (by racist standards)  to white people -- marrying them and having children by them. These people have much influence upon poor blacks as the only people that poor blacks can generally trust. 

As a rule the Black Bourgeoisie is well-educated, indeed better-educated than America as a whole. Trump is the most anti-intellectual President ever, but that will apply to other groups that I mention. 

Biden's group. I assume that this is the group that saved Joe Biden from being eliminated from contention and determined the color of skin of his running mate as well. I don't know how well educated they are compared to my older brother or someone like Rani or several other successful professionals with college degrees that I happen to know personally as well. I assume they weren't fond of the idea of having a white communist/socialist believing Jew associated with global interests that may not match their interests in charge of deciding who gets the most tax dollars and so forth when they know what they're going to get with Biden. In short, the big government side is as greedy when it comes to money as the private sector side. The main difference is the private sector side owns its money. Now, you have some private sectors on your side like Nancy's husband and so forth. Now, if you were to have to choose between providing welfare programs or water that people can drink knowing we can no longer afford both, which one would you pick? I'd like to see if you'd pick the same one as me. Now, shit happens as we all know and there's always a chance that we might need welfare. I've had shit happen with me a few times where I came close to needing welfare.

At this point the American economy has so much productive potential that it no longer needs mass poverty as a threat to keep people from being malingerers. Although any ideological connection to Marxism is suspect, which may have made Bernie Sanders unelectable in the end, Biden is well connected to familiar Democrats by ideology and loyalties. That has nothing to do with Sanders' Jewish origin. As a German-American and a nominal Christian I am astonished to discover how close I am by morality and culture to the Ashkenazim, the Yiddish-speaking Jews. Because of my morals, if I had to choose between being a Jew and being a Nazi I would convert to Judaism because Judaism would compromise far less of what I believe in. Let's start with "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me", which precludes any personality cult for any despot, "Thou shalt not steal", "Thou shalt not commit adultery", and above all else "Thou shalt not kill" -- all commandments established by Judaism that Christianity never rejected. Donald Trump may not be a Nazi, but he has (like all extreme narcissists) himself as a near-god; he is a thief, a serial adulterer, and a killer. If he is not culpable of murder, then he is seemingly culpable of negligent homicide on a scale now approaching 200,000. I hate to use the Stalinist smear of "enemy of the People" to describe anyone, but that is not so much a derisive smear of a political enemy as a conclusion of his behavior.    

Donald Trump aligned himself to people who share the same belief in the obnoxiousness of capitalism that Marxists claim is inevitable in capitalism -- that capitalism mandates a hierarchical, repressive, inequitable, and soul-crushing order on behalf of people dedicated more to their sybaritic indulgence than to any service to humanity. The difference between the Marxist strawman of a capitalist who lords it over the proletariat as a monopolistic or semi-feudal exploiter  and the monopolistic or semi-feudal exploiter is that the exploiter that the Marxist condemns endorses the dehumanizing aspects of capitalism as a desirable end in itself. People who value "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" inherent as a mandatory set of virtues invariably oppose a hierarchical, repressive, inequitable, soul-crushing order whether such is chattel slavery, Bolshevism, or fascism (which encompasses Mussolini's original Fascismo, Nazism, Ku Kluxism, Ba'athism, and ISIS). Much of the Great Struggle is not so much one nation against another as it is the value of human life against an ideology that seems to have found something "higher" which in fact degrades Humanity.

All that keeps us from facing the prospect of a third term of Barack Obama is the 22nd Amendment... but nothing says that we cannot elect the political figure most closely connected to Barack Obama. Obama chose Biden for ideological compatibility and for not having any semblance of self-enrichment through political life -- and not for swinging a state (Delaware is a lock, and it has the minimum of three electoral votes). After nearly four years of Donald Judas Iscariot Trump as President, a connection to Barack Obama, one of the best peacetime Presidents that we ever had, Barack Obama looks very good. Except for not being a conservative, Barack Obama is a model through his probity and respect for precedent and protocol about as good a model of a conservative leader as America can have. 

Kamala Harris has a fine legal mind, and after a President who has acted as if the decencies of rule of law and separation of powers are personal options, that is exactly what we need as an antidote to the toxic perversion of 240 years of a heritage of Constitutional government is a President and Vice-President who believe without qualification that the rule of law and separation of powers are not so much luxuries to be cast off when inconvenient as they are necessities that separate liberty from despotism.   

Is Biden perfect? Maybe not. He is at the age at which anyone can meet the Grim reaper, although I see him  in far better physical and mental health than Trump. Biden has enough judgment to decide at some point that he is not up to the job. For that reason alone I see him as a one-term President. He is the sort of leader with which we are familiar, someone who does not create problems and does not allow them to fester. Unlike Donald Trump, whose one act of alleged expression of piety was a sick sham, Joe Biden is a man of faith. That may not be my faith, but given a choice between a man who has himself as a near-god (witness the personality cult around Donald Trump) and a man of faith, I will find it easy to vote for the Christian this time. We have the choice between freedom and fascism this time.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-29-2020, 04:23 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 09:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

You can on the positive side promote democracy, human rights and equality.  On the less abstract level, you can stop murdering them.  The Republicans, some of them, do not want to do this.  Years of oppression has become a habit.  The do not want to stop their assumption of superiority or grant what they take for granted for themselves.

In short, we were bred to see us and them and oppress them.  If conservatives want so badly to oppress, is it a wonder that their values are going kapt?

I don't care what the Democrats pass, as long as we have black citizens and police, we are going to have some incidents between some black people and cops that result in death.

Why do you say this?

Quote:I think Tucker Carlson said that we had about eight incidents that occurred across the entire country last year. I'm sorry but that ain't much of a problem in my opinion considering twice as many were killed by each other in Chicago last weekend.

I don't trust Tucker Carlson as a reporter; he is biased.

By quantity, this may not seem like much of a problem, if your figures are right. But it happens often enough that blacks are afraid to walk the streets for fear of being killed by police. Also, racial profiling causes many to be pulled over, and the fear that they may be shot or otherwise hurt or killed is always there. And this is threatening, damaging and hurtful to black people. Because of this, black people are angry and on edge about these frequent and continuing incidents.

The way I look at it, if police can pull over and kill somebody for no reason, as happens to many black people, that is a violation of my rights. Chief of Staff Mark Meadows said this week on PBS that he is not black, so he can't relate to how black people feel about this threat. But that just shows racial bias. We are all human beings, so it is not hard to relate to the threat of being stopped and killed by police for no reason. And it happens to whites too, as Michael Bell personally related about his son in 2004 in Kenosha tonight on Democracy Now. If police can do this, and get away with it (as they have usually done up until now), then I am concerned that we might live in a police state. Many share my concern.

Quote:You don't know shit. All you know is what the new popular trend on the Democratic side is and which bandwagon you're supposed to jump on and fully support at this point. Personally, I don't think the uppity black mayor of Chicago really cares about the ghetto blacks. I think she places herself and her wife and her wealthier liberal neighbors above them in importance as she lectures us and blames us for not caring about them as much as she, her wife  and her neighbors care about them. Fuck her.

Political alliances are necessary in order to accomplish anything. So white liberals and black liberals must join together and work together and support each other's aims and concerns in order to win. And a liberal philosophy joins us together in mutual understanding.

The cops don't have a license or the freedom to pull someone over and kill them for any reason. Our cops aren't a bunch of gangsters. You often portray them that way but they aren't that way at all. Dude, every time you open that dumb WHITE mouth of yours and talk like you're some dumb street nigger/cracker who doesn't seem to know any better than they hear from some dumb street slug/ deadbeat or seem to care about anything important who doesn't seem to have an understanding of values, sense of values or a sense of morality, all you do is lower yourself and decrease your importance (value) and influence further in the eyes of those who do, like you and your politicians are doing right now. Now, if you want to refute then go ahead and refute as I continue to do what I can do here or any where else in this country as I'm proving every day. How long did it take me to reverse the coarse and completely turn the tables, eliminate your protections and turn liberal into a bad word. About a year or two maybe? So, what was the odds of someone like me coming in green and being able to shift/swing/disrupt/disorganize a rather large liberal website and force the hand of an absent forum owner. Like I said, you are talking to an old American rebel/ liberator/ defender who will blow your head off and terrorize your politicians if we have to go there and I hope Barrack Obama and Nancy Pelosi are reading this because fair is fair in our country and she isn't immune and neither is Barrack or his beautiful wife. Two can play the same game as Trump has proven and if liberal based shit ( I don't care how ugly or pretty or sexy or wealthy or how well educated the liberal sit is these days) continues then they're going to have to accept the consequences of being directly associated with all the liberal shit that we see and accept personal financial responsibility for all of it. I'm sorry but the Liberals are the only people I know that can make millions of dollars talking shit out their ass and any business who listens to them, bends to their will or goes along with them deserves to lose millions/billions of dollars.