The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-11-2020, 04:10 PM)CH86 Wrote: Capitalism vs Communism has already been tested against each other, Capitalism won. The Main divide today is between those who want to feminize society and turn the citizens into slaves for globalist tycoons and financiers, and those who fight for freedom: and want Men to be Men, and children to have actual childhoods.

Agree that communism is a non starter without a check on the elites and a decent way of distributing wealth.  Even then, they have earned such a bad name for themselves they have a long bit of climbing to do.

I would say the divide is between those who want to keep society masculinized, and those who want to see equality.  Ironically, the oppressors today call their subjection of women, minorities and the common man ‘freedom.’  Somehow, the oppressed don’t see it that way.

[pbrower2a]

(12-11-2020, 09:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 06:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 06:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 07:45 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Somebody predicted Trump wouldn't like Time magazine's person of the year.  That would be Biden and Harris?  Good prediction.  

Is that it? I expected the greatest political duo that mankind has ever seen to receive more than just that award. I expected an Emmy, an Oscar, a Noble Peace Prize, the medal of honor and whatever else is readily available to give them in advance. You have to be appealing to the blue youngsters and the elders who become more childish (blueish) with age. Other than sitting around dreaming and wishing they were more like the Cavaliers or pretending to be Cavaliers or trying to convince the youngsters they are Cavaliers who are better then the Cavaliers, what else do the round heads do with the abundance of time that they all seem to have these days.

I believe the agenda includes curing the pandemic, fighting racism, reducing the imbalance of wealth and saving the planet.  I could add flying to the moon, but the poor economy is putting that on hold.  

Obama's peace prize was early.  People of the year feels more right.  

The pandemic has already been cured and its just a matter of waiting for the delivery of the cure at this point. So, are the Democrats willing to kill thousands while their dragging their feet trying to make Biden look great? I wouldn't put it past them at this point. As far as fighting racism, what's racism look like to you guys these days? A video of  white cop suffocating a black crook during a struggle that took place during an arrest. Is that all you need to see to call it racism and trigger large scale riots and looting and unleash quasi socialists on missions to deface and destroy symbols related to American greatness/progress and attacks institutions associated with American law enforcement and divide a country that you need to remain intact in order to pay all the bills and meet all the obligations and so forth . If you want a war Bob, if you want to wake up and learn every digit is either gone or worthless and we've got the cash, the gold and silver pretty much locked up  then you just continue being stupid and talking stupid, clucking like chickens as you say  and doing what the monkeys are doing so to speak. As far as saving the planet, sucking up and going along and playing patty cake China and trying to out bid Chinese supporter among the UN ain't going to be able to  save the planet.

No, we seem to be at or near "peak death", with the equivalent of a 9/11 attack every day. We have lost the equivalent of such a city as Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, or St. Louis in less than one year from one infectious disease. We are losing the equivalent of our usual annual deaths from motor-vehicle collisions (including with pedestrians) in a week and a half. Considering that much of the road construction or reconstruction now done has the reduction of vehicle collisions and resulting deaths and crippling injuries as an objective and that much of the work of the police is to deter or stop dangerous driving, we do much to keep the vehicle death toll down.

Americans across the political spectrum were angered with 9/11, and rightly so. When the death toll from a disease that we used to believe did not happen in advanced industrial societies came to kill us in large numbers, and the President of the United States gave a catastrophic failure as a response... if one isn't angry about this, then something is terribly wrong with us. If an enemy missile with a hydrogen bomb blasted such a city as Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, or St. Louis and incinerated its people in a few minutes, would you not be calling for war?

OK, OK, OK... you may have never been in any one of those cities. As you know I have been using city populations as measures of the death toll.   Cincinnati is #64, St. Louis is #65, and Pittsburgh is #66. 

OK. I have already mentioned such places as South Bend (#305), Fort Wayne (#77), Toledo (#76), Ann Arbor (#236), Lansing (#240), and Grand Rapids (#113), cities with which I have much familiarity. I hope to hit you hard with a reminder of what city is #63 on the list:







You ought to know this place fairly well. You should know its skyline. I wouldn't, as I have never been there. But it is nothing to sneeze about. It is St. Paul, Minnesota. I assume that you have been there. It has about 308,000 people.   

People are still dying of COVID-19, and dying slowly on a respirator is a lonely way to go. That is how people usually die of COVID-19. The chance of coming back to a full healthy life while on a respirator is surprisingly slight. 

I would not want to experience envenomation from a rattlesnake bite, but I would have a better chance of recovery from that than I would from COVID-19. I turn 65 on Monday, and I am not going to throw away what could be fifteen reasonably-good years just so that I can go around without a mask for a year or so.

Oh... Wikipedia tells me that blacks and Hispanics have been more likely to contract and die of COVID-19. Black lives matter, and COVID-19 has killed far more black people (one of them the country singer Charley Pride) than police brutality. Let's all treat this infernal infection with the brutality that it so deserves, even of our Coward-in-Chief hasn't!

[pbrower2a]

(12-11-2020, 04:10 PM)CH86 Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 03:42 PM)Einzige Wrote:

Quote: When the ruling elite can demand that the common man suffer for the power, gain, and indulgence of rapacious elites... then someone like our friend "Einzige" is right.

This is not what I believe.

I do not have a conspiratorial view of society, in which a capitalist class orchestrates things for nefarious purposes ala the Jews in antisemitic mythology. It is, rather, Capital, a disembodied abstract, which determines the behavior of all humans within capitalist systems, whether capitalist or worker.  It is possible to be a good capitalist who treats her workers very fairly, and indeed to be an egalitarian at heart, and still have ones actions dictated wholly by Capital.

The solution does not lie in traditional leftist organizations like unions or the state, or worker's co-operatives, all of which simply rearrange Capital. The solution is the self-abolition of the working class. This position is a typical left-communist one, not a Stalinist or anarchist one, both of whom we regard as desiring to reproduce a fundamentally capitalist social order.

Capitalism vs Communism has already been tested against each other, Capitalism won. The Main divide today is between those who want to feminize society and turn the citizens into slaves for globalist tycoons and financiers, and those who fight for freedom: and want Men to be Men, and children to have actual childhoods.

Harris personifies this elite drive for feminization. Remember she is the one who wants school hours extended to 6PM and jailed truant Kids parents.

Better feminism than fascism. If it was a choice of the US and Great Britain to  'sissify' Germany, Italy, and Japan so that they would never end up with anti-human, fascist regimes again, then in view of the rarity of aggression of those countries since 1945, such seems like a good idea. 

I do not accept "boys will be boys" as an excuse for bad behavior. If you want to know what is scary, it is the combination of testosterone and anorexia. Males can have anorexia, too, but there may be something to Julius Caesar seeing danger in the 'lean and hungry' look in Shakespeare's play. Some of the mass shooters look as if they were half-starved. Obviously that is no excuse for someone like Herrmann Goering, the fat, morphine-addicted Nazi sociopath... 

Here are some men remarkably similar to America's enemies, at least ideologically, of World War II. Nothing sissy about them:

[David Horn]

(12-13-2020, 08:32 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 04:10 PM)CH86 Wrote: Capitalism vs Communism has already been tested against each other, Capitalism won. The Main divide today is between those who want to feminize society and turn the citizens into slaves for globalist tycoons and financiers, and those who fight for freedom: and want Men to be Men, and children to have actual childhoods.

Agree that communism is a non starter without a check on the elites and a decent way of distributing wealth.  Even then, they have earned such a bad name for themselves they have a long bit of climbing to do.

I would say the divide is between those who want to keep society masculinized, and those who want to see equality.  Ironically, the oppressors today call their subjection of women, minorities and the common man ‘freedom.’  Somehow, the oppressed don’t see it that way.

Let's all agree that neither capitalism nor communism work well.  A true hybrid economy seems to be best, at least for now.  Whether that will still be true when "work" will be done by machines, and people will be doing both much less and much more ... at least I hope that's the case.  On gender issues, feminization is hardly a negative.  Masculine modes center around competition (best case) and strife (more typical than it should be), which only are needed when resources are less than demand.  The feminine model is based on cooperation, and where is the downside to that?

[Bob Butler 54]

CNN talks about an urban myth, that there is lots of voter fraud in the big cities.  Underlying the myth is something we have long talked about.  The demographics are shifting.  It is getting harder for rural voters to defeat urban ones.  Even with gerrymandering, other voter exclusion methods and the old slavery compromises, it is harder for the rural, conservative Republicans to win.

This reinforces my hope that a new maybe three turning progressive era is starting.  So far, the Trump dominance of the Republican Party is holding.  He may keep enough of his influence alive to keep the establishment chained.  Thus far the true conservatives that wish to keep clear of Trump's influence haven't the numbers.  The Democrats might get time to actually solve problems.

I hope so anyway.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-12-2020, 12:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 08:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-07-2020, 03:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-07-2020, 12:56 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You don't think we should have a middle class anymore? You've talked a lot about needing a middle class. You so partisan, you missed your opportunity to help them out. You're screwed dude. I assume that climate change and further enriching tycoons and making black people feel better about themselves is more important to you from a political perspective than helping them save their jobs. I haven't figured out whether your mind is warped or your a two faced piece of crap. Either or, your pretty much screwed at this point. Yep, Trump was defeated but Trump ain't going away anytime soon. If Twitter won't let you speak, you create an alternative to Twitter and play the same game as Twitter and Facebook has played with Conservatives and Donald Trump. Like I've said, you's guys are so stupid it's unbelievable. It's no wonder why you guys get blind sided so much these days.

A society polarized into a few rich people and a proletariat of destitute toilers is typically one famine or one military calamity away from a Jacobin or Bolshevik revolution. 

Beginning with Nixon, who partially revived his activity as a diplomat-in-all-but-name, ex-Presidents have had some involvement in American life after the President unless they went senile (Reagan) or became near-recluses (Dubya). Trump has much to offer his cult, but little to offer anyone else. He is already a sick, stale joke. Contrast Barack Obama, who is welcome almost everywhere in the world. He did little bad and much good, and he says some wise things that people like to hear. Trump is simply a shock jock, someone more likely to offend than to inspire. Trump's style is distinctly 3T, and any practice or trend from the 3T had better be really good to survive through the 4T.

If Trump was simply a shock jock then you wouldn't be in the unenviable position that you're in right now. I already made it through a group of Democrats who were much tougher than you. Oh, and I did it without a major fight or firing a shot so to speak. You weren't around, you wouldn't know what I'm capable of doing and guess what, I'm just one of the millions of Trump supporters. Guess what, Trump got me three supreme court judges and a few hundred lower court judges to balance the lower courts and his loss has given us a couple of chumps with something to prove to play with so to speak. Trump still has a term left and as long as he's not in the same condition as Biden then he'll vindicate himself and accomplishment by winning a second term.

Trump is simply a shock jock, because that's all it takes to hook you idiots.

How much do you want to bet that he's reelected if he runs in 2024?

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-15-2020, 05:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How much do you want to bet that he's reelected if he runs in 2024?

Not a betting guy, but I almost do hope he gets the nomination in 2024.  That would mean he hung on to his base, and thus he has the establishment Republicans over a barrel.  It would also imply organizations like the Lincoln Project and Republicans Agains Trump are still submerged in the Republican Party, would still be working for the Democrats.  He would also lose.  Again.

But he has to get past his legal and debit problems first.

[Bob Butler 54]

For the last year or so I have been supplementing my web news with watching a little MSNBC on the side. It is sort of like watching the news during the Watergate era. The news was the most tense and interesting thing on TV. After the news spent 25 minutes on Watergate, there was the next upcoming Watergate special programming. You can say all the bad things you like about Trump, but 2020 has sure made for interesting times, even if it was along the lines of the ancient Chinese curse.

With the electoral votes in and the vaccine being distributed? It is starting to wind down. The suspense seems to be going away. The four walls of the quarantine seem to be a bit more confining. The light at the end of the tunnel seems a bit brighter.

Ah, well. I have had enough of interesting times.

Nixon and Trump as the bookends on the unraveling? Seems like the history books will have that as an inevitable structure.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-15-2020, 10:52 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: For the last year or so I have been supplementing my web news with watching a little MSNBC on the side.  It is sort of like watching the news during the Watergate era.  The news was the most tense and interesting thing on TV.  After the news spent 25 minutes on Watergate, there was the next upcoming Watergate special programming.  You can say all the bad things you like about Trump, but 2020 has sure made for interesting times, even if it was along the lines of the ancient Chinese curse.

With the electoral votes in and the vaccine being distributed?  It is starting to wind down.  The suspense seems to be going away.  The four walls of the quarantine seem to be a bit more confining.  The light at the end of the tunnel seems a bit brighter.

Ah, well.  I have had enough of interesting times.

Nixon and Trump as the bookends on the unraveling?  Seems like the history books will have that as an inevitable structure.

I'm more inclined to view LBJ and Biden/Harris as the book ends.

[Einzige]

(12-15-2020, 05:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-12-2020, 12:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 08:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-07-2020, 03:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-07-2020, 12:56 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You don't think we should have a middle class anymore? You've talked a lot about needing a middle class. You so partisan, you missed your opportunity to help them out. You're screwed dude. I assume that climate change and further enriching tycoons and making black people feel better about themselves is more important to you from a political perspective than helping them save their jobs. I haven't figured out whether your mind is warped or your a two faced piece of crap. Either or, your pretty much screwed at this point. Yep, Trump was defeated but Trump ain't going away anytime soon. If Twitter won't let you speak, you create an alternative to Twitter and play the same game as Twitter and Facebook has played with Conservatives and Donald Trump. Like I've said, you's guys are so stupid it's unbelievable. It's no wonder why you guys get blind sided so much these days.

A society polarized into a few rich people and a proletariat of destitute toilers is typically one famine or one military calamity away from a Jacobin or Bolshevik revolution. 

Beginning with Nixon, who partially revived his activity as a diplomat-in-all-but-name, ex-Presidents have had some involvement in American life after the President unless they went senile (Reagan) or became near-recluses (Dubya). Trump has much to offer his cult, but little to offer anyone else. He is already a sick, stale joke. Contrast Barack Obama, who is welcome almost everywhere in the world. He did little bad and much good, and he says some wise things that people like to hear. Trump is simply a shock jock, someone more likely to offend than to inspire. Trump's style is distinctly 3T, and any practice or trend from the 3T had better be really good to survive through the 4T.

If Trump was simply a shock jock then you wouldn't be in the unenviable position that you're in right now. I already made it through a group of Democrats who were much tougher than you. Oh, and I did it without a major fight or firing a shot so to speak. You weren't around, you wouldn't know what I'm capable of doing and guess what, I'm just one of the millions of Trump supporters. Guess what, Trump got me three supreme court judges and a few hundred lower court judges to balance the lower courts and his loss has given us a couple of chumps with something to prove to play with so to speak. Trump still has a term left and as long as he's not in the same condition as Biden then he'll vindicate himself and accomplishment by winning a second term.

Trump is simply a shock jock, because that's all it takes to hook you idiots.

How much do you want to bet that he's reelected if he runs in 2024?

All of you people put a million times too much emphasis on personalities and Parties.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-16-2020, 01:57 PM)Einzige Wrote: All of you people put a million times too much emphasis on personalities and Parties.

You put too much emphasis on a theory which is totally divorced from reality.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-16-2020, 01:57 PM)Einzige Wrote:

(12-15-2020, 05:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-12-2020, 12:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 08:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-07-2020, 03:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: A society polarized into a few rich people and a proletariat of destitute toilers is typically one famine or one military calamity away from a Jacobin or Bolshevik revolution. 

Beginning with Nixon, who partially revived his activity as a diplomat-in-all-but-name, ex-Presidents have had some involvement in American life after the President unless they went senile (Reagan) or became near-recluses (Dubya). Trump has much to offer his cult, but little to offer anyone else. He is already a sick, stale joke. Contrast Barack Obama, who is welcome almost everywhere in the world. He did little bad and much good, and he says some wise things that people like to hear. Trump is simply a shock jock, someone more likely to offend than to inspire. Trump's style is distinctly 3T, and any practice or trend from the 3T had better be really good to survive through the 4T.

If Trump was simply a shock jock then you wouldn't be in the unenviable position that you're in right now. I already made it through a group of Democrats who were much tougher than you. Oh, and I did it without a major fight or firing a shot so to speak. You weren't around, you wouldn't know what I'm capable of doing and guess what, I'm just one of the millions of Trump supporters. Guess what, Trump got me three supreme court judges and a few hundred lower court judges to balance the lower courts and his loss has given us a couple of chumps with something to prove to play with so to speak. Trump still has a term left and as long as he's not in the same condition as Biden then he'll vindicate himself and accomplishment by winning a second term.

Trump is simply a shock jock, because that's all it takes to hook you idiots.

How much do you want to bet that he's reelected if he runs in 2024?

All of you people put a million times too much emphasis on personalities and Parties.

I don't place much stock or emphasis on parties myself.

[Eric the Green]

(12-15-2020, 10:52 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: For the last year or so I have been supplementing my web news with watching a little MSNBC on the side.  It is sort of like watching the news during the Watergate era.  The news was the most tense and interesting thing on TV.  After the news spent 25 minutes on Watergate, there was the next upcoming Watergate special programming.  You can say all the bad things you like about Trump, but 2020 has sure made for interesting times, even if it was along the lines of the ancient Chinese curse.

With the electoral votes in and the vaccine being distributed?  It is starting to wind down.  The suspense seems to be going away.  The four walls of the quarantine seem to be a bit more confining.  The light at the end of the tunnel seems a bit brighter.

Ah, well.  I have had enough of interesting times.

Nixon and Trump as the bookends on the unraveling?  Seems like the history books will have that as an inevitable structure.

Trump turned out to be a perfect example of the generally-40-year Skowroneck theory, in which the last in the cycle since Reagan was the disjunctive, which shows that the philosophy dominant since the start of the cycle has run its course. Biden then begins the new cycle.

That may hinge on whether Harris is nominated in 2024, which would cut the "Reconstructive" presidency down to 4 years and eliminate the hand-picked successor, and possibly allow Trump or a clone of his to return to power. If Trump were to return to power, it seems fair to predict that not only would this end the Skowroneck cycle, but would end the presidency as we know it.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archiv...omes-next/

[Eric the Green]

(12-15-2020, 05:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-12-2020, 12:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 08:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-07-2020, 03:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-07-2020, 12:56 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You don't think we should have a middle class anymore? You've talked a lot about needing a middle class. You so partisan, you missed your opportunity to help them out. You're screwed dude. I assume that climate change and further enriching tycoons and making black people feel better about themselves is more important to you from a political perspective than helping them save their jobs. I haven't figured out whether your mind is warped or your a two faced piece of crap. Either or, your pretty much screwed at this point. Yep, Trump was defeated but Trump ain't going away anytime soon. If Twitter won't let you speak, you create an alternative to Twitter and play the same game as Twitter and Facebook has played with Conservatives and Donald Trump. Like I've said, you's guys are so stupid it's unbelievable. It's no wonder why you guys get blind sided so much these days.

A society polarized into a few rich people and a proletariat of destitute toilers is typically one famine or one military calamity away from a Jacobin or Bolshevik revolution. 

Beginning with Nixon, who partially revived his activity as a diplomat-in-all-but-name, ex-Presidents have had some involvement in American life after the President unless they went senile (Reagan) or became near-recluses (Dubya). Trump has much to offer his cult, but little to offer anyone else. He is already a sick, stale joke. Contrast Barack Obama, who is welcome almost everywhere in the world. He did little bad and much good, and he says some wise things that people like to hear. Trump is simply a shock jock, someone more likely to offend than to inspire. Trump's style is distinctly 3T, and any practice or trend from the 3T had better be really good to survive through the 4T.

If Trump was simply a shock jock then you wouldn't be in the unenviable position that you're in right now. I already made it through a group of Democrats who were much tougher than you. Oh, and I did it without a major fight or firing a shot so to speak. You weren't around, you wouldn't know what I'm capable of doing and guess what, I'm just one of the millions of Trump supporters. Guess what, Trump got me three supreme court judges and a few hundred lower court judges to balance the lower courts and his loss has given us a couple of chumps with something to prove to play with so to speak. Trump still has a term left and as long as he's not in the same condition as Biden then he'll vindicate himself and accomplishment by winning a second term.

Trump is simply a shock jock, because that's all it takes to hook you idiots.

How much do you want to bet that he's reelected if he runs in 2024?

I thought I answered that already. It depends on who is nominated in 2024.

All this talk about the "historic nature" of Harris as vice-president-elect could end up being very ironic, if that choice turns out to be the death knell of the republic.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-16-2020, 04:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-15-2020, 05:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-12-2020, 12:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 08:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-07-2020, 03:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: A society polarized into a few rich people and a proletariat of destitute toilers is typically one famine or one military calamity away from a Jacobin or Bolshevik revolution. 

Beginning with Nixon, who partially revived his activity as a diplomat-in-all-but-name, ex-Presidents have had some involvement in American life after the President unless they went senile (Reagan) or became near-recluses (Dubya). Trump has much to offer his cult, but little to offer anyone else. He is already a sick, stale joke. Contrast Barack Obama, who is welcome almost everywhere in the world. He did little bad and much good, and he says some wise things that people like to hear. Trump is simply a shock jock, someone more likely to offend than to inspire. Trump's style is distinctly 3T, and any practice or trend from the 3T had better be really good to survive through the 4T.

If Trump was simply a shock jock then you wouldn't be in the unenviable position that you're in right now. I already made it through a group of Democrats who were much tougher than you. Oh, and I did it without a major fight or firing a shot so to speak. You weren't around, you wouldn't know what I'm capable of doing and guess what, I'm just one of the millions of Trump supporters. Guess what, Trump got me three supreme court judges and a few hundred lower court judges to balance the lower courts and his loss has given us a couple of chumps with something to prove to play with so to speak. Trump still has a term left and as long as he's not in the same condition as Biden then he'll vindicate himself and accomplishment by winning a second term.

Trump is simply a shock jock, because that's all it takes to hook you idiots.

How much do you want to bet that he's reelected if he runs in 2024?

I thought I answered that already. It depends on who is nominated in 2024.

All this talk about the "historic nature" of Harris as vice-president-elect could end up being very ironic, if that choice turns out to be the death knell of the republic.

Are you going to ignore an election result and nominate someone other than Harris who will most likely be President by then? Biden's people won't be able to hide Biden's condition for long being half the country already knows that he's got dementia. You should be happy, Liberals (the blue personality cult) don't like the idea of a republic and prefer a dictatorship. Ain't that what you want?

[pbrower2a]

(12-16-2020, 01:57 PM)Einzige Wrote: All of you people put a million times too much emphasis on personalities and Parties.

Some personalities (psychopath, sociopath, extreme narcissist, borderline, and paranoid schizophrenic) are either dangerous or exploitative. That's before I even mention the stupid and incompetent. Parties and other organizations that concentrate, enable, or create them are big trouble. 

Character really is destiny, although in such a nightmare world as Nazi Germany in which the leadership is for all practical purposes gangsters, admirable character might be personal doom.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-16-2020, 04:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-15-2020, 10:52 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: For the last year or so I have been supplementing my web news with watching a little MSNBC on the side.  It is sort of like watching the news during the Watergate era.  The news was the most tense and interesting thing on TV.  After the news spent 25 minutes on Watergate, there was the next upcoming Watergate special programming.  You can say all the bad things you like about Trump, but 2020 has sure made for interesting times, even if it was along the lines of the ancient Chinese curse.

With the electoral votes in and the vaccine being distributed?  It is starting to wind down.  The suspense seems to be going away.  The four walls of the quarantine seem to be a bit more confining.  The light at the end of the tunnel seems a bit brighter.

Ah, well.  I have had enough of interesting times.

Nixon and Trump as the bookends on the unraveling?  Seems like the history books will have that as an inevitable structure.

Trump turned out to be a perfect example of the generally-40-year Skowroneck theory, in which the last in the cycle since Reagan was the disjunctive, which shows that the philosophy dominant since the start of the cycle has run its course. Biden then begins the new cycle.

That may hinge on whether Harris is nominated in 2024, which would cut the "Reconstructive" presidency down to 4 years and eliminate the hand-picked successor, and possibly allow Trump or a clone of his to return to power. If Trump were to return to power, it seems fair to predict that not only would this end the Skowroneck cycle, but would end the presidency as we know it.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archiv...omes-next/

Biden/Harris actually represent the old Democratic cycle that began with the election of FDR that Reagan tweaked enough to keep America free. Thanks to you, we are nearing its end. If Trumps runs, he will represent a departure from DC politics altogether leaving DC powerless and more or less penny less. If you live in a blue city or near a large blue city, the situation for you may get a little ugly or downright ugly. Also, the time of the career politician will come to an end as the American states vote to impose term limits. What's going to happen to you, I don't know and don't care at this point. You have had many years to show me something of value that's worth keeping you and you've failed miserably.

[pbrower2a]

(12-16-2020, 11:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-16-2020, 04:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-15-2020, 10:52 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: For the last year or so I have been supplementing my web news with watching a little MSNBC on the side.  It is sort of like watching the news during the Watergate era.  The news was the most tense and interesting thing on TV.  After the news spent 25 minutes on Watergate, there was the next upcoming Watergate special programming.  You can say all the bad things you like about Trump, but 2020 has sure made for interesting times, even if it was along the lines of the ancient Chinese curse.

With the electoral votes in and the vaccine being distributed?  It is starting to wind down.  The suspense seems to be going away.  The four walls of the quarantine seem to be a bit more confining.  The light at the end of the tunnel seems a bit brighter.

Ah, well.  I have had enough of interesting times.

Nixon and Trump as the bookends on the unraveling?  Seems like the history books will have that as an inevitable structure.

Trump turned out to be a perfect example of the generally-40-year Skowroneck theory, in which the last in the cycle since Reagan was the disjunctive, which shows that the philosophy dominant since the start of the cycle has run its course. Biden then begins the new cycle.

That may hinge on whether Harris is nominated in 2024, which would cut the "Reconstructive" presidency down to 4 years and eliminate the hand-picked successor, and possibly allow Trump or a clone of his to return to power. If Trump were to return to power, it seems fair to predict that not only would this end the Skowroneck cycle, but would end the presidency as we know it.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archiv...omes-next/

Biden/Harris actually represent the old Democratic cycle that began with the election of FDR that Reagan tweaked enough to keep America free.

Wrong. Very wrong. FDR's New Deal politics depended heavily upon the GI generation which trusted the political process to solve some problems. As the influence of the GI generation faded (with age, of course, as its voters started dying off) the New Deal coalition faded in strength and relevance. Reagan is the start of a new Skowronek cycle with a very different ethos, one that celebrates wealth and privilege on the assumption that those with wealth and privilege are more competent than non-rich 'losers' who might more wisely take delight in watching elites wallow in sybaritic excess than getting more than the share that those elites allow to trickle down. An aging Skowronek cycle comes to an end when either (1) the vital constituency behind it fades away, or (2) the person  in charge takes the ideology to some absurd, and perhaps destructive or abusive parody of its original ethos. Donald Trump is so sick a parody of Ronald Reagan that Joe Biden can beat him with a Reagan-like campaign.    

Quote:Thanks to you, we are nearing its end. If Trumps runs, he will represent a departure from DC politics altogether leaving DC powerless and more or less penniless.

I expect Joe Biden and Kamala Harris to offer what seem to them a pragmatic solution to problems that we now have, problems that conservative pols swept under the rug.  Whoops! Those are chips of old lead paint!

There is more at fault than plutocracy. Much bad stuff goes on in a 3T, including the rise of anti-intellectual religiosity. Bad habits from other times must give way in the solution of a 4T. and the most common bad habits come from the recent Unraveling.  

Quote:If you live in a blue city or near a large blue city, the situation for you may get a little ugly or downright ugly.

Nothing like the reality in Overdose Gulch, most of which is economically-ravaged areas like central Appalachia and the Ozarks. Such places are the ones that went most to the Right over twenty years. If you thought that such places would prosper because they would be attractive to Corporate America because of cheap, submissive, and obedient labor with low expectations in life. Think again. These areas continue to hemorrhage jobs and other opportunities.   

Quote:Also, the time of the career politician will come to an end as the American states vote to impose term limits.

Term limits have been fading as a solution to political inadequacies in recent years. 

Quote: What's going to happen to you, I don't know and don't care at this point. You have had many years to show me something of value that's worth keeping you and you've failed miserably.

Lives of people dissimilar to you matter lest your life become precarious too.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-16-2020, 01:44 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm more inclined to view LBJ and Biden/Harris as the book ends.

LBJ was definitely tail end of the New Deal progressive era.  He did make two ‘mistakes’.  He viewed Vietnam through the Domino Theory, fighting for a corrupt dictator.  He supported the minority population, including racism in the progressive agenda, earning a backlash.  The two mistakes ended the progressive era, but there is no doubt he was continuing with the world’s policeman role and the attack on the greatest problem philosophy.

Nixon, Ford and Carter ate the problems.  Watergate, the fall of Saigon, the coming off the gold standard financial woes, the oil crisis, the hostage crisis, the national malaise all threw doubt on the idea that America could throw money at and solve any problem.  I’m not sure they belong to either the progressive or conservative times.

Reagan was the key figure of the conservative era, setting the tone and policies of the time.  I would put Trump as the bad president who took those policies to absurdity and killed them.

Biden/Harris?  It is a bit early to say they set the tone for a new progressive era.  They have not done anything yet.  They seem to be restoring Obama’s presidency.  The difference is whether the Republican obstruction continues.  It is not clear where the border will be drawn from my point of view.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-16-2020, 11:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden/Harris actually represent the old Democratic cycle that began with the election of FDR that Reagan tweaked enough to keep America free. Thanks to you, we are nearing its end. If Trumps runs, he will represent a departure from DC politics altogether leaving DC powerless and more or less penny less. If you live in a blue city or near a large blue city, the situation for you may get a little ugly or downright ugly. Also, the time of the career politician will come to an end as the American states vote to impose term limits. What's going to happen to you, I don't know and don't care at this point. You have had many years to show me something of value that's worth keeping you and you've failed miserably.

I actually do see some similarities between FDR and Biden.  Both are crisis presidents tryings to solve crisis problems following a conservative era where the Republicans tried to ignore the problems.  That said, the problems are very different.  There is an economic collapse again, but it is more due to the refusal to handle COVID than structural.  We have the pandemic, a wave of racism coming to a head and the environmental problem.  No big war yet, and the crisis aversion to war has already convinced us not to put boots on the ground, let alone get involved in a land war in Asia.

If Trump runs again he will further depress the Republican Party.  He has to ride the debt and legal problems first, but he looks to hold the establishment hostage and make them look really bad.  Meanwhile his taking revenge on America for rejecting him is not looking good in the long term.  The wave of pardons will draw attention to how corrupt he is.

After Palin and Trump, the best thing that could happen to the conservatives would be for them to fall in love with someone half decent.  The original Tea Party idea was to get away from the traditional Republican love of the elites.  Listen to the people on racism, stop obstructing, and work for the worker rather than hurting the poor to maintain superiority over minorities.  Stop attacking unions, benefits and jobs.  Instead, they fell in love with the biggest alligator in the swamp.  The third time could be the charm or it might be too late.

It looks like the problems in the cities are far to small to change the culture, the protests much bigger.  The problems with violence caused by the Boogaloo Bois, looters, bad cops, Proud Boys and Wolverine Watchmen are all minor when put beside the other crisis problems.  Compare the combined violent death count to the virus deaths?  You have been trying to emphasize the violence and disregard the virus, but you look at the numbers and it is very much the opposite.  Those who are paying attention to what is going on aren't with you.