I'm a sceptic that the 4th Turning started in 2008

[Dustinw5220]

(06-18-2021, 03:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 02:20 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-17-2021, 04:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 07:39 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(05-23-2021, 02:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I think the anti-slavery movement got going around 1815, although I'm not too clear on that right now. Religious awakenings date back to camp meetings as early as the first 1800 decade, while Joseph Smith's Mormon revelation happened in 1820, 2 years before the S&H date for starting the Awakening. In 1834, a defeat for the anti-slavery movement sent it into retreat, and Dixie got more organized.

Definitely, the early rush of industrialism and railroad speculation in the 1840s is the parallel to the roaring 20s, and to the high tech "dot-com boom" of the late 1990s and early 2000s as well. Your Titanic/Challenger parallel seems a good one, and highlights the hubris of 3Ts. I don't remember the planetary correlates either right now, but what I may have mentioned was the Uranus flyby that was going on simultaneously to the Challenger accident. Your war parallels seem valid to me as well.

Yeah, most of the time I agree with S&H's dates for everything (exact generation end/start dates aside, LOL), but not the Civil War saeculum though, their dates for that one have always sounded suspect to me (for instance, the Transcendentals began to arrive in 1792, a full 30 years before S&H's start date for the Awakening, which really makes no sense at all). What would you say were the singular events that started (or caused) the 2T and 4T mood shifts in 1815 and 1850 respectively, was it just the end(s) of The War of 1812 and the Mexican War (and the Compromise of 1850), or was there more to it than that?

I believe you also said in your book that the 2070s would also be a turbulent decade, so if the 2060s parallels the 1890s/1900s and the 1970s/1980s, what would you say would be a good analogy/parallel to the 2070s? Also, if the 1840s is the parallel to the Roaring 20s in the Civil War saeculum, and the 1990s (and possibly the early 2000s) are the parallel in the Millennial saeculum, would you say the 'roaring decade' you described (in your book) for the 2080s will be the parallel for the next saeculum?

Yes indeed. And the 2070s will definitely be 3T.

I'm not so sure about 1815, except it definitely was the Awakening start in Europe because of the renewal of liberal movements there, so some echo probably happened here, probably the start of the anti-slavery movement. And possibly some spiritualist or romantic trends. 

1850 is pretty clear. The compromise staved off a real danger of civil war breaking out. President Taylor was ready to "march and crush the traitors," but then he died. The end of the Mexican War made the battle to get more free or slave states uppermost. When Abraham Lincoln met "Uncle Tom's Cabin" author Harriet B. Stowe he told her, "so you're the little lady who made this big war". The book came out in 1851-52. It was a big deal. Then came the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854, and the battle was on.

What kinds of stuff might break out in the 2070s (I think you said in your book that there might be a second Teddy Roosevelt either in the late 1860s or the 1870s and that disease and guns might still sadly be a problem here in America, but on the brighter side there might be a watershed moment in 2074 comparable to Neil Armstrong landing on the moon in 1969)? What would you say might be a good historical analogy/parallel to that decade (in either the Civil War, Great Power, or Millennium saeculums)?

In your forecast, you said the 2080s would be a calmer (and probably more fun) decade, but still very 3T, correct? At any rate, it certainly sounds like it's gonna parallel the Roaring Twenties a lot, I think you said there might be a second prohibition era (if the double rhythm holds there, I see that working about as well as it did in the 1920s, LOL)? I think you also said the 2080s might actually make the Roaring Twenties look chaste in comparison (both culturally and in terms of loosening social mores)?

Yeah, I think you're right, there was already an anti-slavery movement here in America as early as 1815 (I think there might have even been a few seeds planted before that, but those were likely pre-Awakening early 1960s like events). I know S&H's name for the 1794-1815 1T doesn't work, as the supposed 'Era of Good Feelings' started in 1815 (when the 1T was already all but over and the Awakening was starting).

I'm a little embarrassed to admit this (especially on this forum), but I know next to nothing about President Taylor, what was he like? Was it his death that officially ended the 3T and started the 4T, or was it a little before or after that?

I don't know; you might know more about my book than I do at this point   I am more focused on current events in this 4T right now. But that sounds right for the 2070s, and the best parallel will be the 1900s-1910s. But yes the 2080s will parallel the 1920s in their roar, but the early years will be very idealistic and progressive, quite different from other 3T decades.

Taylor was a victorious general in the Mexican War. The only two presidents elected by Whigs were old generals who didn't live out their terms (the other was W H Harrison in 1840). He was no liberal, but he was very irrascible. He was not given to compromise. I would say the controversy about whether states entering the union conquered in the Mexican War (especially good ol CA, and NM) would be slave or free, leading up to Taylor's threat to start a civil war, was the start of the 4T; the Compromise merely staved it off temporarily.

Fair enough.  You're right though, that WOULD be different from other 3T decades (LOL). After the Cold War ended, I suppose there were some shades of idealism in the 1990s under Clinton (but still, hardly what you would really call call progressive). Is it fair to say Generation Alpha's influence in politics (being the Prophet/Idealist generation that they'll become) will lend the early 2080s it's idealistic and progressive reputation? Plus, since people are living longer now, I'm sure at least some of us Millennials will still be around as well (Mr. Brower has brought up before that older generations living longer might help to stave off the worst aspects/trends of any turning, this could be just such an example).

Yeah, that all makes sense. So Taylor was a Whig I take it (if he was, he was DEFINITELY bad news then)?

[Eric the Green]

(06-18-2021, 03:29 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 03:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 02:20 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-17-2021, 04:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 07:39 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote: Yeah, most of the time I agree with S&H's dates for everything (exact generation end/start dates aside, LOL), but not the Civil War saeculum though, their dates for that one have always sounded suspect to me (for instance, the Transcendentals began to arrive in 1792, a full 30 years before S&H's start date for the Awakening, which really makes no sense at all). What would you say were the singular events that started (or caused) the 2T and 4T mood shifts in 1815 and 1850 respectively, was it just the end(s) of The War of 1812 and the Mexican War (and the Compromise of 1850), or was there more to it than that?

I believe you also said in your book that the 2070s would also be a turbulent decade, so if the 2060s parallels the 1890s/1900s and the 1970s/1980s, what would you say would be a good analogy/parallel to the 2070s? Also, if the 1840s is the parallel to the Roaring 20s in the Civil War saeculum, and the 1990s (and possibly the early 2000s) are the parallel in the Millennial saeculum, would you say the 'roaring decade' you described (in your book) for the 2080s will be the parallel for the next saeculum?

Yes indeed. And the 2070s will definitely be 3T.

I'm not so sure about 1815, except it definitely was the Awakening start in Europe because of the renewal of liberal movements there, so some echo probably happened here, probably the start of the anti-slavery movement. And possibly some spiritualist or romantic trends. 

1850 is pretty clear. The compromise staved off a real danger of civil war breaking out. President Taylor was ready to "march and crush the traitors," but then he died. The end of the Mexican War made the battle to get more free or slave states uppermost. When Abraham Lincoln met "Uncle Tom's Cabin" author Harriet B. Stowe he told her, "so you're the little lady who made this big war". The book came out in 1851-52. It was a big deal. Then came the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854, and the battle was on.

What kinds of stuff might break out in the 2070s (I think you said in your book that there might be a second Teddy Roosevelt either in the late 1860s or the 1870s and that disease and guns might still sadly be a problem here in America, but on the brighter side there might be a watershed moment in 2074 comparable to Neil Armstrong landing on the moon in 1969)? What would you say might be a good historical analogy/parallel to that decade (in either the Civil War, Great Power, or Millennium saeculums)?

In your forecast, you said the 2080s would be a calmer (and probably more fun) decade, but still very 3T, correct? At any rate, it certainly sounds like it's gonna parallel the Roaring Twenties a lot, I think you said there might be a second prohibition era (if the double rhythm holds there, I see that working about as well as it did in the 1920s, LOL)? I think you also said the 2080s might actually make the Roaring Twenties look chaste in comparison (both culturally and in terms of loosening social mores)?

Yeah, I think you're right, there was already an anti-slavery movement here in America as early as 1815 (I think there might have even been a few seeds planted before that, but those were likely pre-Awakening early 1960s like events). I know S&H's name for the 1794-1815 1T doesn't work, as the supposed 'Era of Good Feelings' started in 1815 (when the 1T was already all but over and the Awakening was starting).

I'm a little embarrassed to admit this (especially on this forum), but I know next to nothing about President Taylor, what was he like? Was it his death that officially ended the 3T and started the 4T, or was it a little before or after that?

I don't know; you might know more about my book than I do at this point   I am more focused on current events in this 4T right now. But that sounds right for the 2070s, and the best parallel will be the 1900s-1910s. But yes the 2080s will parallel the 1920s in their roar, but the early years will be very idealistic and progressive, quite different from other 3T decades.

Taylor was a victorious general in the Mexican War. The only two presidents elected by Whigs were old generals who didn't live out their terms (the other was W H Harrison in 1840). He was no liberal, but he was very irrascible. He was not given to compromise. I would say the controversy about whether states entering the union conquered in the Mexican War (especially good ol CA, and NM) would be slave or free, leading up to Taylor's threat to start a civil war, was the start of the 4T; the Compromise merely staved it off temporarily.

Fair enough.  You're right though, that WOULD be different from other 3T decades (LOL). After the Cold War ended, I suppose there were some shades of idealism in the 1990s under Clinton (but still, hardly what you would really call progressive). Is it fair to say Generation Alpha's influence in politics (being the Prophet/Idealist generation that they'll become) will lend the early 2080s it's idealistic and progressive reputation? Plus, since people are living longer now, I'm sure at least some of us Millennials will still be around as well (Mr. Brower has brought up before that older generations living longer might help to stave off the worst aspects/trends of any turning, this could be just such an example).

Yeah, that all makes sense. So Taylor was a Whig I take it (if he was, he was DEFINITELY bad news then)?

Right, and Woodrow Wilson was another example of an idealist during a 3T, although he was not so idealistic in some ways. But this indicates that the early 2080s, in which Uranus will line up with Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius with Neptune opposing in Leo, could see some breakthroughs like we saw after WWI and after the Cold War. Major economic policy changes too.

Taylor ran as a Whig, but probably only because the Whigs chose him (like the Republicans chose Ike before the Democrats could get him). There was not much difference between the parties then, but the Republicans took over the Whig mantle when the Whigs collapsed due to riffs over slavery.

[Dustinw5220]

(06-18-2021, 08:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 03:29 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 03:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 02:20 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-17-2021, 04:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Yes indeed. And the 2070s will definitely be 3T.

I'm not so sure about 1815, except it definitely was the Awakening start in Europe because of the renewal of liberal movements there, so some echo probably happened here, probably the start of the anti-slavery movement. And possibly some spiritualist or romantic trends. 

1850 is pretty clear. The compromise staved off a real danger of civil war breaking out. President Taylor was ready to "march and crush the traitors," but then he died. The end of the Mexican War made the battle to get more free or slave states uppermost. When Abraham Lincoln met "Uncle Tom's Cabin" author Harriet B. Stowe he told her, "so you're the little lady who made this big war". The book came out in 1851-52. It was a big deal. Then came the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854, and the battle was on.

What kinds of stuff might break out in the 2070s (I think you said in your book that there might be a second Teddy Roosevelt either in the late 1860s or the 1870s and that disease and guns might still sadly be a problem here in America, but on the brighter side there might be a watershed moment in 2074 comparable to Neil Armstrong landing on the moon in 1969)? What would you say might be a good historical analogy/parallel to that decade (in either the Civil War, Great Power, or Millennium saeculums)?

In your forecast, you said the 2080s would be a calmer (and probably more fun) decade, but still very 3T, correct? At any rate, it certainly sounds like it's gonna parallel the Roaring Twenties a lot, I think you said there might be a second prohibition era (if the double rhythm holds there, I see that working about as well as it did in the 1920s, LOL)? I think you also said the 2080s might actually make the Roaring Twenties look chaste in comparison (both culturally and in terms of loosening social mores)?

Yeah, I think you're right, there was already an anti-slavery movement here in America as early as 1815 (I think there might have even been a few seeds planted before that, but those were likely pre-Awakening early 1960s like events). I know S&H's name for the 1794-1815 1T doesn't work, as the supposed 'Era of Good Feelings' started in 1815 (when the 1T was already all but over and the Awakening was starting).

I'm a little embarrassed to admit this (especially on this forum), but I know next to nothing about President Taylor, what was he like? Was it his death that officially ended the 3T and started the 4T, or was it a little before or after that?

I don't know; you might know more about my book than I do at this point   I am more focused on current events in this 4T right now. But that sounds right for the 2070s, and the best parallel will be the 1900s-1910s. But yes the 2080s will parallel the 1920s in their roar, but the early years will be very idealistic and progressive, quite different from other 3T decades.

Taylor was a victorious general in the Mexican War. The only two presidents elected by Whigs were old generals who didn't live out their terms (the other was W H Harrison in 1840). He was no liberal, but he was very irrascible. He was not given to compromise. I would say the controversy about whether states entering the union conquered in the Mexican War (especially good ol CA, and NM) would be slave or free, leading up to Taylor's threat to start a civil war, was the start of the 4T; the Compromise merely staved it off temporarily.

Fair enough.  You're right though, that WOULD be different from other 3T decades (LOL). After the Cold War ended, I suppose there were some shades of idealism in the 1990s under Clinton (but still, hardly what you would really call progressive). Is it fair to say Generation Alpha's influence in politics (being the Prophet/Idealist generation that they'll become) will lend the early 2080s it's idealistic and progressive reputation? Plus, since people are living longer now, I'm sure at least some of us Millennials will still be around as well (Mr. Brower has brought up before that older generations living longer might help to stave off the worst aspects/trends of any turning, this could be just such an example).

Yeah, that all makes sense. So Taylor was a Whig I take it (if he was, he was DEFINITELY bad news then)?

Right, and Woodrow Wilson was another example of an idealist during a 3T, although he was not so idealistic in some ways. But this indicates that the early 2080s, in which Uranus will line up with Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius with Neptune opposing in Leo, could see some breakthroughs like we saw after WWI and after the Cold War. Major economic policy changes too.

Taylor ran as a Whig, but probably only because the Whigs chose him (like the Republicans chose Ike before the Democrats could get him). There was not much difference between the parties then, but the Republicans took over the Whig mantle when the Whigs collapsed due to riffs over slavery.

You're right, Woodrow Wilson was also an idealist (albeit from the Progressive Artist/Adaptive generation) and probably one of the better 3T leaders we've had. It really is ironic that the 2080s will be so idealistic for a 3T, because now I'm suddenly thinking of the 1970s, which (as we both know) was very cynical compared to other 2T decades (LOL). Is there any chance us old age Millennials will be willing to work together with midlife Gen Alphers (providing we can get over some of our typical midlife/elderhood hubris as a Hero/Civic generation) in our next 3T?

I take it Uranus lined up with Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius with Neptune opposing in Leo during the 1920s and 1990s (or after the end of WWI and the Cold War) too?

That makes sense, I actually DID look up Taylor a bit more, and while he was no liberal/progressive by any means, it certainly doesn't sound like he was anywhere near as bad as the core Whig Party. Hey, I know you said before that the mood shift occurred in 1834 because that was the year that the resistance against the Abolitionist Movement started, but do you think there was a specific moment in 1834 when the Awakening ended and the 3T began?

[beechnut79]

(06-29-2021, 03:14 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 08:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 03:29 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 03:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 02:20 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote: What kinds of stuff might break out in the 2070s (I think you said in your book that there might be a second Teddy Roosevelt either in the late 1860s or the 1870s and that disease and guns might still sadly be a problem here in America, but on the brighter side there might be a watershed moment in 2074 comparable to Neil Armstrong landing on the moon in 1969)? What would you say might be a good historical analogy/parallel to that decade (in either the Civil War, Great Power, or Millennium saeculums)?

In your forecast, you said the 2080s would be a calmer (and probably more fun) decade, but still very 3T, correct? At any rate, it certainly sounds like it's gonna parallel the Roaring Twenties a lot, I think you said there might be a second prohibition era (if the double rhythm holds there, I see that working about as well as it did in the 1920s, LOL)? I think you also said the 2080s might actually make the Roaring Twenties look chaste in comparison (both culturally and in terms of loosening social mores)?

Yeah, I think you're right, there was already an anti-slavery movement here in America as early as 1815 (I think there might have even been a few seeds planted before that, but those were likely pre-Awakening early 1960s like events). I know S&H's name for the 1794-1815 1T doesn't work, as the supposed 'Era of Good Feelings' started in 1815 (when the 1T was already all but over and the Awakening was starting).

I'm a little embarrassed to admit this (especially on this forum), but I know next to nothing about President Taylor, what was he like? Was it his death that officially ended the 3T and started the 4T, or was it a little before or after that?

I don't know; you might know more about my book than I do at this point   I am more focused on current events in this 4T right now. But that sounds right for the 2070s, and the best parallel will be the 1900s-1910s. But yes the 2080s will parallel the 1920s in their roar, but the early years will be very idealistic and progressive, quite different from other 3T decades.

Taylor was a victorious general in the Mexican War. The only two presidents elected by Whigs were old generals who didn't live out their terms (the other was W H Harrison in 1840). He was no liberal, but he was very irrascible. He was not given to compromise. I would say the controversy about whether states entering the union conquered in the Mexican War (especially good ol CA, and NM) would be slave or free, leading up to Taylor's threat to start a civil war, was the start of the 4T; the Compromise merely staved it off temporarily.

Fair enough.  You're right though, that WOULD be different from other 3T decades (LOL). After the Cold War ended, I suppose there were some shades of idealism in the 1990s under Clinton (but still, hardly what you would really call progressive). Is it fair to say Generation Alpha's influence in politics (being the Prophet/Idealist generation that they'll become) will lend the early 2080s it's idealistic and progressive reputation? Plus, since people are living longer now, I'm sure at least some of us Millennials will still be around as well (Mr. Brower has brought up before that older generations living longer might help to stave off the worst aspects/trends of any turning, this could be just such an example).

Yeah, that all makes sense. So Taylor was a Whig I take it (if he was, he was DEFINITELY bad news then)?

Right, and Woodrow Wilson was another example of an idealist during a 3T, although he was not so idealistic in some ways. But this indicates that the early 2080s, in which Uranus will line up with Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius with Neptune opposing in Leo, could see some breakthroughs like we saw after WWI and after the Cold War. Major economic policy changes too.

Taylor ran as a Whig, but probably only because the Whigs chose him (like the Republicans chose Ike before the Democrats could get him). There was not much difference between the parties then, but the Republicans took over the Whig mantle when the Whigs collapsed due to riffs over slavery.

You're right, Woodrow Wilson was also an idealist (albeit from the Progressive Artist/Adaptive generation) and probably one of the better 3T leaders we've had. It really is ironic that the 2080s will be so idealistic for a 3T, because now I'm suddenly thinking of the 1970s, which (as we both know) was very cynical compared to other 2T decades (LOL). Is there any chance us old age Millennials will be willing to work together with midlife Gen Alphers (providing we can get over some of our typical midlife/elderhood hubris as a Hero/Civic generation) in our next 3T?

I take it Uranus lined up with Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius with Neptune opposing in Leo during the 1920s and 1990s (or after the end of WWI and the Cold War) too?

That makes sense, I actually DID look up Taylor a bit more, and while he was no liberal/progressive by any means, it certainly doesn't sound like he was anywhere near as bad as the core Whig Party. Hey, I know you said before that the mood shift occurred in 1834 because that was the year that the resistance against the Abolitionist Movement started, but do you think there was a specific moment in 1834 when the Awakening ended and the 3T began?

I would argue that the present is a much more cynical and downbeat time than were the 1970s. Sure there were those bummed out by the fallout from Watergate, and Carter May have hinted at a national malaise, even if that M word wasn’t specifically uttered. It was a wild and fun time when staying home on a weekend night unless deathly sick was akin to blasphemy. Folks often partied their brains out in clubs and discos, which is definitely not happening now and hasn’t been for several years, long before the pandemic began. Risky behavior was much more accepted during that halcyon days after The Pill and before AIDS. On a grand scale I would say that it was an even more hedonistic decade than were the 1960s. Free love matured and became casual sex, and you didn’t have to watch what you said anywhere near the way you do now. Homeless were still bums. What amazes me is how few people seem to be nostalgic for those freer, more swinging times gone by. Given the chance I would return to that time I a heartbeat. Sure the time frame had it’s problems, but what bracketed period doesn’t. It was perhaps the best period in history in which to be a single solo traveler.

[Eric the Green]

(06-29-2021, 03:14 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 08:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 03:29 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 03:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 02:20 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote: What kinds of stuff might break out in the 2070s (I think you said in your book that there might be a second Teddy Roosevelt either in the late 1860s or the 1870s and that disease and guns might still sadly be a problem here in America, but on the brighter side there might be a watershed moment in 2074 comparable to Neil Armstrong landing on the moon in 1969)? What would you say might be a good historical analogy/parallel to that decade (in either the Civil War, Great Power, or Millennium saeculums)?

In your forecast, you said the 2080s would be a calmer (and probably more fun) decade, but still very 3T, correct? At any rate, it certainly sounds like it's gonna parallel the Roaring Twenties a lot, I think you said there might be a second prohibition era (if the double rhythm holds there, I see that working about as well as it did in the 1920s, LOL)? I think you also said the 2080s might actually make the Roaring Twenties look chaste in comparison (both culturally and in terms of loosening social mores)?

Yeah, I think you're right, there was already an anti-slavery movement here in America as early as 1815 (I think there might have even been a few seeds planted before that, but those were likely pre-Awakening early 1960s like events). I know S&H's name for the 1794-1815 1T doesn't work, as the supposed 'Era of Good Feelings' started in 1815 (when the 1T was already all but over and the Awakening was starting).

I'm a little embarrassed to admit this (especially on this forum), but I know next to nothing about President Taylor, what was he like? Was it his death that officially ended the 3T and started the 4T, or was it a little before or after that?

I don't know; you might know more about my book than I do at this point   I am more focused on current events in this 4T right now. But that sounds right for the 2070s, and the best parallel will be the 1900s-1910s. But yes the 2080s will parallel the 1920s in their roar, but the early years will be very idealistic and progressive, quite different from other 3T decades.

Taylor was a victorious general in the Mexican War. The only two presidents elected by Whigs were old generals who didn't live out their terms (the other was W H Harrison in 1840). He was no liberal, but he was very irrascible. He was not given to compromise. I would say the controversy about whether states entering the union conquered in the Mexican War (especially good ol CA, and NM) would be slave or free, leading up to Taylor's threat to start a civil war, was the start of the 4T; the Compromise merely staved it off temporarily.

Fair enough.  You're right though, that WOULD be different from other 3T decades (LOL). After the Cold War ended, I suppose there were some shades of idealism in the 1990s under Clinton (but still, hardly what you would really call progressive). Is it fair to say Generation Alpha's influence in politics (being the Prophet/Idealist generation that they'll become) will lend the early 2080s it's idealistic and progressive reputation? Plus, since people are living longer now, I'm sure at least some of us Millennials will still be around as well (Mr. Brower has brought up before that older generations living longer might help to stave off the worst aspects/trends of any turning, this could be just such an example).

Yeah, that all makes sense. So Taylor was a Whig I take it (if he was, he was DEFINITELY bad news then)?

Right, and Woodrow Wilson was another example of an idealist during a 3T, although he was not so idealistic in some ways. But this indicates that the early 2080s, in which Uranus will line up with Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius with Neptune opposing in Leo, could see some breakthroughs like we saw after WWI and after the Cold War. Major economic policy changes too.

Taylor ran as a Whig, but probably only because the Whigs chose him (like the Republicans chose Ike before the Democrats could get him). There was not much difference between the parties then, but the Republicans took over the Whig mantle when the Whigs collapsed due to riffs over slavery.

You're right, Woodrow Wilson was also an idealist (albeit from the Progressive Artist/Adaptive generation) and probably one of the better 3T leaders we've had. It really is ironic that the 2080s will be so idealistic for a 3T, because now I'm suddenly thinking of the 1970s, which (as we both know) was very cynical compared to other 2T decades (LOL). Is there any chance us old age Millennials will be willing to work together with midlife Gen Alphers (providing we can get over some of our typical midlife/elderhood hubris as a Hero/Civic generation) in our next 3T?

I take it Uranus lined up with Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius with Neptune opposing in Leo during the 1920s and 1990s (or after the end of WWI and the Cold War) too?

That makes sense, I actually DID look up Taylor a bit more, and while he was no liberal/progressive by any means, it certainly doesn't sound like he was anywhere near as bad as the core Whig Party. Hey, I know you said before that the mood shift occurred in 1834 because that was the year that the resistance against the Abolitionist Movement started, but do you think there was a specific moment in 1834 when the Awakening ended and the 3T began?

I hope Millennials will be better at relating to the new Alphawave prophets than the GIs were with the Boomers. Tech issues could be a point of contention. But I think the relationship between the old heroes and the new prophets will be better in the next 2T and 3T coming up.

Similar but not identical planetary alignments happened in the period after WWI (around 1918-1920) and in 1989/the early 1990s period. In the Cold War ending period (circa early 1990s) Uranus and Neptune were in conjunction, rather than opposition, with Saturn also joining them in 1989-1990, and Jupiter opposed to them then. These aspects were especially tight when the Berlin Wall fell, as I predicted it would. In the 1918-1920 period after WWI, Uranus was finishing up the opposition to Neptune that was exact around 1908-1910. They were in the same signs in the 1918 era as they will be in 2080-82. Saturn aligned with Neptune in 1918 just as it did in 1989-1990. 

I don't have anything more specific to say right now about 1834.

[Dustinw5220]

(06-30-2021, 01:35 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-29-2021, 03:14 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 08:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 03:29 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 03:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't know; you might know more about my book than I do at this point   I am more focused on current events in this 4T right now. But that sounds right for the 2070s, and the best parallel will be the 1900s-1910s. But yes the 2080s will parallel the 1920s in their roar, but the early years will be very idealistic and progressive, quite different from other 3T decades.

Taylor was a victorious general in the Mexican War. The only two presidents elected by Whigs were old generals who didn't live out their terms (the other was W H Harrison in 1840). He was no liberal, but he was very irrascible. He was not given to compromise. I would say the controversy about whether states entering the union conquered in the Mexican War (especially good ol CA, and NM) would be slave or free, leading up to Taylor's threat to start a civil war, was the start of the 4T; the Compromise merely staved it off temporarily.

Fair enough.  You're right though, that WOULD be different from other 3T decades (LOL). After the Cold War ended, I suppose there were some shades of idealism in the 1990s under Clinton (but still, hardly what you would really call progressive). Is it fair to say Generation Alpha's influence in politics (being the Prophet/Idealist generation that they'll become) will lend the early 2080s it's idealistic and progressive reputation? Plus, since people are living longer now, I'm sure at least some of us Millennials will still be around as well (Mr. Brower has brought up before that older generations living longer might help to stave off the worst aspects/trends of any turning, this could be just such an example).

Yeah, that all makes sense. So Taylor was a Whig I take it (if he was, he was DEFINITELY bad news then)?

Right, and Woodrow Wilson was another example of an idealist during a 3T, although he was not so idealistic in some ways. But this indicates that the early 2080s, in which Uranus will line up with Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius with Neptune opposing in Leo, could see some breakthroughs like we saw after WWI and after the Cold War. Major economic policy changes too.

Taylor ran as a Whig, but probably only because the Whigs chose him (like the Republicans chose Ike before the Democrats could get him). There was not much difference between the parties then, but the Republicans took over the Whig mantle when the Whigs collapsed due to riffs over slavery.

You're right, Woodrow Wilson was also an idealist (albeit from the Progressive Artist/Adaptive generation) and probably one of the better 3T leaders we've had. It really is ironic that the 2080s will be so idealistic for a 3T, because now I'm suddenly thinking of the 1970s, which (as we both know) was very cynical compared to other 2T decades (LOL). Is there any chance us old age Millennials will be willing to work together with midlife Gen Alphers (providing we can get over some of our typical midlife/elderhood hubris as a Hero/Civic generation) in our next 3T?

I take it Uranus lined up with Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius with Neptune opposing in Leo during the 1920s and 1990s (or after the end of WWI and the Cold War) too?

That makes sense, I actually DID look up Taylor a bit more, and while he was no liberal/progressive by any means, it certainly doesn't sound like he was anywhere near as bad as the core Whig Party. Hey, I know you said before that the mood shift occurred in 1834 because that was the year that the resistance against the Abolitionist Movement started, but do you think there was a specific moment in 1834 when the Awakening ended and the 3T began?

I hope Millennials will be better at relating to the new Alphawave prophets than the GIs were with the Boomers. Tech issues could be a point of contention. But I think the relationship between the old heroes and the new prophets will be better in the next 2T and 3T coming up.

Similar but not identical planetary alignments happened in the period after WWI (around 1918-1920) and in 1989/the early 1990s period. In the Cold War ending period (circa early 1990s) Uranus and Neptune were in conjunction, rather than opposition, with Saturn also joining them in 1989-1990, and Jupiter opposed to them then. These aspects were especially tight when the Berlin Wall fell, as I predicted it would. In the 1918-1920 period after WWI, Uranus was finishing up the opposition to Neptune that was exact around 1908-1910. They were in the same signs in the 1918 era as they will be in 2080-82. Saturn aligned with Neptune in 1918 just as it did in 1989-1990. 

I don't have anything more specific to say right now about 1834.

I hope they are too. Yeah, I would like to believe that we won't be quite as content to just sit back and collect our "entitlements" and retreat from public life in the next 3T the way the G.I.'s did in the last one. If there's enough of us and we could get enough mobilization going, we might be able to stop civic and institutional life from entirely decaying in the next 3T (on the flip side, old Prophets living longer could in theory also help keep the inner world from fully decaying in a 1T). If mass shootings are indeed still an issue in the 2070s, you can bet that those of us that are left are gonna want to finish the 60 year mission we started in the 2010s and end gun violence in America once and for all! Yes, perhaps we'll get an opportunity that not many other Hero/Civic generations have gotten so far, the chance to reaffirm our heroism (and dare I say glory) and accomplish some more good late in life (and right on the cusp of the 50th anniversary of the climax of our current 4T), but still I think the only way it happens is if we learn to overcome (at least SOME of) our hubris and learn to relate and work together with Alphawave Prophets. As Mr. Brower pointed out, since older generations are now living longer, we're likely to see all four archetypes in adulthood and/or in power in all four turnings from here on out (though obviously in a VERY different order depending on the turning), and that in itself might lessen the severity of each turning and make the next saeculum more organized and stable. The combination of old age Millennials, elderhood Gen Zers, midlife Alphawavers, and young adult Gen Beta (or Gen B or whatever the new Nomads end up calling themselves) may just help usher in the best 3T decade we've had so far (in the 2080s).

It is fascinating how WW1 and end of the Cold War had similar yet different conjunctions, and that it will happen again in the middle of the next 3T (in the late 2070s-early 2080s), do you know if the Civil War saeculum ever had a similar conjunction?

[Eric the Green]

(07-09-2021, 05:31 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-30-2021, 01:35 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-29-2021, 03:14 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 08:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-18-2021, 03:29 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote: Fair enough.  You're right though, that WOULD be different from other 3T decades (LOL). After the Cold War ended, I suppose there were some shades of idealism in the 1990s under Clinton (but still, hardly what you would really call progressive). Is it fair to say Generation Alpha's influence in politics (being the Prophet/Idealist generation that they'll become) will lend the early 2080s it's idealistic and progressive reputation? Plus, since people are living longer now, I'm sure at least some of us Millennials will still be around as well (Mr. Brower has brought up before that older generations living longer might help to stave off the worst aspects/trends of any turning, this could be just such an example).

Yeah, that all makes sense. So Taylor was a Whig I take it (if he was, he was DEFINITELY bad news then)?

Right, and Woodrow Wilson was another example of an idealist during a 3T, although he was not so idealistic in some ways. But this indicates that the early 2080s, in which Uranus will line up with Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius with Neptune opposing in Leo, could see some breakthroughs like we saw after WWI and after the Cold War. Major economic policy changes too.

Taylor ran as a Whig, but probably only because the Whigs chose him (like the Republicans chose Ike before the Democrats could get him). There was not much difference between the parties then, but the Republicans took over the Whig mantle when the Whigs collapsed due to riffs over slavery.

You're right, Woodrow Wilson was also an idealist (albeit from the Progressive Artist/Adaptive generation) and probably one of the better 3T leaders we've had. It really is ironic that the 2080s will be so idealistic for a 3T, because now I'm suddenly thinking of the 1970s, which (as we both know) was very cynical compared to other 2T decades (LOL). Is there any chance us old age Millennials will be willing to work together with midlife Gen Alphers (providing we can get over some of our typical midlife/elderhood hubris as a Hero/Civic generation) in our next 3T?

I take it Uranus lined up with Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius with Neptune opposing in Leo during the 1920s and 1990s (or after the end of WWI and the Cold War) too?

That makes sense, I actually DID look up Taylor a bit more, and while he was no liberal/progressive by any means, it certainly doesn't sound like he was anywhere near as bad as the core Whig Party. Hey, I know you said before that the mood shift occurred in 1834 because that was the year that the resistance against the Abolitionist Movement started, but do you think there was a specific moment in 1834 when the Awakening ended and the 3T began?

I hope Millennials will be better at relating to the new Alphawave prophets than the GIs were with the Boomers. Tech issues could be a point of contention. But I think the relationship between the old heroes and the new prophets will be better in the next 2T and 3T coming up.

Similar but not identical planetary alignments happened in the period after WWI (around 1918-1920) and in 1989/the early 1990s period. In the Cold War ending period (circa early 1990s) Uranus and Neptune were in conjunction, rather than opposition, with Saturn also joining them in 1989-1990, and Jupiter opposed to them then. These aspects were especially tight when the Berlin Wall fell, as I predicted it would. In the 1918-1920 period after WWI, Uranus was finishing up the opposition to Neptune that was exact around 1908-1910. They were in the same signs in the 1918 era as they will be in 2080-82. Saturn aligned with Neptune in 1918 just as it did in 1989-1990. 

I don't have anything more specific to say right now about 1834.

I hope they are too. Yeah, I would like to believe that we won't be quite as content to just sit back and collect our "entitlements" and retreat from public life in the next 3T the way the G.I.'s did in the last one. If there's enough of us and we could get enough mobilization going, we might be able to stop civic and institutional life from entirely decaying in the next 3T (on the flip side, old Prophets living longer could in theory also help keep the inner world from fully decaying in a 1T). If mass shootings are indeed still an issue in the 2070s, you can bet that those of us that are left are gonna want to finish the 60 year mission we started in the 2010s and end gun violence in America once and for all! Yes, perhaps we'll get an opportunity that not many other Hero/Civic generations have gotten so far, the chance to reaffirm our heroism (and dare I say glory) and accomplish some more good late in life (and right on the cusp of the 50th anniversary of the climax of our current 4T), but still I think the only way it happens is if we learn to overcome (at least SOME of) our hubris and learn to relate and work together with Alphawave Prophets. As Mr. Brower pointed out, since older generations are now living longer, we're likely to see all four archetypes in adulthood and/or in power in all four turnings from here on out (though obviously in a VERY different order depending on the turning), and that in itself might lessen the severity of each turning and make the next saeculum more organized and stable. The combination of old age Millennials, elderhood Gen Zers, midlife Alphawavers, and young adult Gen Beta (or Gen B or whatever the new Nomads end up calling themselves) may just help usher in the best 3T decade we've had so far (in the 2080s).

It is fascinating how WW1 and end of the Cold War had similar yet different conjunctions, and that it will happen again in the middle of the next 3T (in the late 2070s-early 2080s), do you know if the Civil War saeculum ever had a similar conjunction?

Yes, a very significant one, though probably not one familiar to most high school students, as I myself had never heard of most of the associated events until I studied European history in 1973. It happened a bit further back in the civil war/romantic saeculum; in fact S&H date the American 2T and the Gilded Generation of that saeculum from that conjunction date (both within a year of it, I think). 1821 was the date of the previous Uranus-Neptune conjunction, as they happen in about a 171-72-year cycle. Leading up to this conjunction, in 1815, the Congress of Vienna brought peace after the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars, and was a forerunner of the League of Nations after WWI and the end of the Cold War era. Like that recent era around 1993, many new nations emerged in the 1821 era, largely thanks to the big revolution in Latin America that unfolded after the king of Spain was temporarily deposed in 1820 by a revolutionary coup. Portugal and Brazil were affected too. We Americans know about the Monroe Doctrine, but are less familiar with the Congress of Vienna, which sought not only to bring a balance of power that prevented war, but to restore monarchies wherever possible in order to turn back the clock on the Revolution. So they restored the Iberian kings and also suppressed revolutions in Italy in 1821, but the British navy prevented the Vienna Powers from restoring the colonies in Latin America. The big uprising in Greece was another matter, and a big mess that eventually led to World War One, during the next opposition, starting with the Bosnian Crisis of 1908, because of the century-long decay of Turkey, the sick man of Europe, which ruled most of the Middle East and Balkans. But Greece eventually won its independence after about 6 years of the bloody revolutionary war with Turkey that broke out in 1821, right during the conjunction. This was eventually achieved through an Alliance of Britain, France and Russia, the same countries that were allies against the center in the world wars to come.

1821 was also the height of romantic art and poetry, and Beethoven's 9th Symphony climaxed classical music and opened romanticism in that field in 1823-24. It was also a key dispensation of religion, one of the series every 600 years that corresponds to the birth of new religions and key religious figures. So out of this Uranus-Neptune conjunction of 1821 we can trace the new age movement and the New Thought religions of today, thanks to their relationship to the doctrinaire but pioneering Mary Baker Eddy of Christian Science, who was born in 1821 with that conjunction on her Ascendant. Also born that year was the founder of the Bahai Faith, the first attempt at a truly new-age revealed universal religion, and of Joseph Smith's vision that led to the founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The revival of Unitarianism in America is also part of this period, and is also a universalist religion, and the founders of Marxism were also born in this era.

In the USA, the most significant event was probably the Missouri Compromise, which settled for now the emerging sectional conflict between free and slave states. By the way Jupiter and Saturn were also in conjunction in that year 1821.