Gray Champion Predictions

[JasonBlack]

(03-18-2022, 09:01 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-17-2022, 04:19 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: ... We need a Grey Champion who exudes strength, authority and fiery resolve, and frankly...there is no one like that to be found at present. When he (and it will be a he) does come, I think it will surprise everyone.

Don't bet your bank account on that.  We're in an era that needs different thinking, and a woman in the Gray Champion role might be the perfect way to move ahead.  Who that might be is the question.  AOC has the charisma and the polish, but she may too divisive to get the nod ... at least for now.

This isn't just my opinion. 2Ts move society from a masculine polarity to a feminine one. 4Ts move society from a feminine polarity to a masculine one. Yin and Yang being out of balance in one direction for too long is every bit as unsustainable as our national debt or destruction of the environment, as we are due for a correction. There is a temptation which many (esp boomers, but tbh, quite a few millennials as well) have to present 2T solutions to 4T problems because they tend to feel better and justify continuing 3T trends toward indulgent consumerism where masculine stoicism is needed. If we did have a female grey champion, it would be unlike any of the women mentioned thus far and more along the lines of someone like Margaret Thatcher, who had more balls than most military commanders. Today, we'd almost certainly be looking at a Republican like Jeanine Pirro or Anne Coulter, not a "girl boss" type.

One of the reasons why Neil Howe doesn't think this crisis is anywhere close to over is that we still cling to soft, wishful thinking and keep insisting "compassionate solutions" can work in place of hard nosed resolve. As as society, we're still privileged enough to talk about traits like heroism, strength and authority as if they're archaic, irrelevant concepts to be laughed off. In the mean time, RPG/adventure games, super hero movies, war/strategy games and youtube channels about working out/survivalism are all the rage. This isn't a coincidence. We know we need to return to a state where society values these characteristics.

Quote:AOC has the charisma and the polish

...what? she has neither. she is sassy and rude and wants to come in and boss people around while having no experience to justify doing so (a trait not uncommon among millennial women). In terms of demeanor, I think Ilhan Omar manages to be much more pleasant to listen to in spite of being fairly assertive (not that I agree with the majority of her positions, but we're talking about general character here).

[David Horn]

(03-18-2022, 08:00 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: ... 2Ts move society from a masculine polarity to a feminine one. 4Ts move society from a feminine polarity to a masculine one. Yin and Yang being out of balance in one direction for too long is every bit as unsustainable as our national debt or destruction of the environment, as we are due for a correction. There is a temptation which many (esp boomers, but tbh, quite a few millennials as well) have to present 2T solutions to 4T problems because they tend to feel better and justify continuing 3T trends toward indulgent consumerism where masculine stoicism is needed. If we did have a female grey champion, it would be unlike any of the women mentioned thus far and more along the lines of someone like Margaret Thatcher, who had more balls than most military commanders. Today, we'd almost certainly be looking at a Republican like Jeanine Pirro or Anne Coulter, not a "girl boss" type.

I think you improperly conflate stoicism and masculinity. I've met many stoics in my life, and gender doesn't seem to be a defining feature. Yes, stoicism has taken a beating in the last few decades, but macho chest-beating is not a stoic characteristic. If anything, they are polar opposites. Stoics endure quietly and suffer inside rather than blame-shame in public. FWIW, politicians are rarely stoic. Look elsewhere.

JasonBlack Wrote:One of the reasons why Neil Howe doesn't think this crisis is anywhere close to over is that we still cling to soft, wishful thinking and keep insisting "compassionate solutions" can work in place of hard nosed resolve. As as society, we're still privileged enough to talk about traits like heroism, strength and authority as if they're archaic, irrelevant concepts to be laughed off. In the mean time, RPG/adventure games, super hero movies, war/strategy games and youtube channels about working out/survivalism are all the rage. This isn't a coincidence. We know we need to return to a state where society values these characteristics.

If you want to see heroism, look at Ukraine. Almost no one is interested in being brave or fighting, for that matter. They just want to endure and save whatever is left of their dignity and past life. That's not even vaguely RPG-like. It's real.

[JasonBlack]

(03-19-2022, 08:50 AM)David Horn Wrote: I think you improperly conflate stoicism and masculinity. I've met many stoics in my life, and gender doesn't seem to be a defining feature. Yes, stoicism has taken a beating in the last few decades, but macho chest-beating is not a stoic characteristic. If anything, they are polar opposites. Stoics endure quietly and suffer inside rather than blame-shame in public. FWIW, politicians are rarely stoic. Look elsewhere.

If I allegedly conflate masculinity with stoicism, you conflate it with macho chest beating. a drive for power and ambition, a healthy sense of competitiveness and an ability to stand strong and be a protective pillar for one's family do not require macho chest beating. Unfortunately, this conflation has become the default reaction of the American public with regards to masculinity. They can't see that their fragmenting society, failure to produce strong leaders and deteriorating family life are all trace back to a lack of masculine backbone.

Stoicism is still a primarily masculine trait (esp since it's strongly correlated to low trait neuroticism), but it is the opposite of chest beating. Where chest beating places offense, stoicism plays defense and turns inward to exert control over one's self and not allow external pressures to break them, disrupt their composure or force a reaction.

Quote:If you want to see heroism, look at Ukraine. Almost no one is interested in being brave or fighting, for that matter. They just want to endure and save whatever is left of their dignity and past life. That's not even vaguely RPG-like. It's real.

My point was that entertainment trends show us millennials have a sharp interest in heroism, albeit a largely unconscious one.

[Eric the Green]

(03-19-2022, 09:27 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(03-19-2022, 08:50 AM)David Horn Wrote: I think you improperly conflate stoicism and masculinity. I've met many stoics in my life, and gender doesn't seem to be a defining feature. Yes, stoicism has taken a beating in the last few decades, but macho chest-beating is not a stoic characteristic. If anything, they are polar opposites. Stoics endure quietly and suffer inside rather than blame-shame in public. FWIW, politicians are rarely stoic. Look elsewhere.

If I allegedly conflate masculinity with stoicism, you conflate it with macho chest beating. a drive for power and ambition, a healthy sense of competitiveness and an ability to stand strong and be a protective pillar for one's family do not require macho chest beating. Unfortunately, this conflation has become the default reaction of the American public with regards to masculinity. They can't see that their fragmenting society, failure to produce strong leaders and deteriorating family life are all trace back to a lack of masculine backbone.

The American public "can't see that" because there is nothing there to see. It does not trace back to that. It traces back to excess commercialism and neoliberal individualism and whatever else saps our ability to have a sense of civic and moral responsibility.

Quote:Stoicism is still a primarily masculine trait (esp since it's strongly correlated to low trait neuroticism), but it is the opposite of chest beating. Where chest beating places offense, stoicism plays defense and turns inward to exert control over one's self and not allow external pressures to break them, disrupt their composure or force a reaction.

Quote:If you want to see heroism, look at Ukraine. Almost no one is interested in being brave or fighting, for that matter. They just want to endure and save whatever is left of their dignity and past life. That's not even vaguely RPG-like. It's real.

My point was that entertainment trends show us millennials have a sharp interest in heroism, albeit a largely unconscious one.

The only entertainment trend I see among young people today is lousy entertainment. I doubt this has much to do with heroism, but if a hero generation has a sharp interest in heroism, should that surprise us?

The stoic and the epicurean both have their place in a reasonably balanced life. On the philosophers wheel, I think I am somewhere on the middle vertical axis between them, but higher up on the axis than either.


https://philosopherswheel.com/questionnaire.htm

[Eric the Green]

(03-18-2022, 08:00 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(03-18-2022, 09:01 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-17-2022, 04:19 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: ... We need a Grey Champion who exudes strength, authority and fiery resolve, and frankly...there is no one like that to be found at present. When he (and it will be a he) does come, I think it will surprise everyone.

Don't bet your bank account on that.  We're in an era that needs different thinking, and a woman in the Gray Champion role might be the perfect way to move ahead.  Who that might be is the question.  AOC has the charisma and the polish, but she may too divisive to get the nod ... at least for now.

This isn't just my opinion. 2Ts move society from a masculine polarity to a feminine one. 4Ts move society from a feminine polarity to a masculine one. Yin and Yang being out of balance in one direction for too long is every bit as unsustainable as our national debt or destruction of the environment, as we are due for a correction. There is a temptation which many (esp boomers, but tbh, quite a few millennials as well) have to present 2T solutions to 4T problems because they tend to feel better and justify continuing 3T trends toward indulgent consumerism where masculine stoicism is needed. If we did have a female grey champion, it would be unlike any of the women mentioned thus far and more along the lines of someone like Margaret Thatcher, who had more balls than most military commanders. Today, we'd almost certainly be looking at a Republican like Jeanine Pirro or Anne Coulter, not a "girl boss" type.

One of the reasons why Neil Howe doesn't think this crisis is anywhere close to over is that we still cling to soft, wishful thinking and keep insisting "compassionate solutions" can work in place of hard nosed resolve. As as society, we're still privileged enough to talk about traits like heroism, strength and authority as if they're archaic, irrelevant concepts to be laughed off. In the mean time, RPG/adventure games, super hero movies, war/strategy games and youtube channels about working out/survivalism are all the rage. This isn't a coincidence. We know we need to return to a state where society values these characteristics.

Our lack of civil responsibility is due to belief in the neoliberal ideology that we can just let the free market operate and the invisible hand will create utopia. And therefore we don't need any compassionate solutions, but just rely upon ourselves. We are due for a correction all right-- after 40 years of this "masculine" self-reliance, we need to return to caring for our society and our planet too or we won't have either. It seems to me politicians and people in general have plenty of resolve. It's where they employ it that is the problem. It's about a few people with great resolve wanting more wealth and power for themselves and less for everyone else, and deceiving people that if we all think that way, then we'll all succeed, or else that solutions just trickle down from those few "job creaters".

Quote:

Quote:AOC has the charisma and the polish

...what? she has neither. she is sassy and rude and wants to come in and boss people around while having no experience to justify doing so (a trait not uncommon among millennial women). In terms of demeanor, I think Ilhan Omar manages to be much more pleasant to listen to in spite of being fairly assertive (not that I agree with the majority of her positions, but we're talking about general character here).

Can you really make out such evaluations based on your personal personality preferences? Sorry, but rich bosses these days need to be bossed around, and that's what AOC and other progressives offer.

[David Horn]

(03-20-2022, 03:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Our lack of civil responsibility is due to belief in the neoliberal ideology that we can just let the free market operate and the invisible hand will create utopia. And therefore we don't need any compassionate solutions, but just rely upon ourselves. We are due for a correction all right-- after 40 years of this "masculine" self-reliance, we need to return to caring for our society and our planet too or we won't have either. It seems to me politicians and people in general have plenty of resolve. It's where they employ it that is the problem. It's about a few people with great resolve wanting more wealth and power for themselves and less for everyone else, and deceiving people that if we all think that way, then we'll all succeed, or else that solutions just trickle down from those few "job creaters".

Agreed in full, but a hard sell to the very people most likely to believe in Market Magic ™. The scary part: our very own private propaganda machines (FoX, OANN and others) have brainwashed a huge percentage of the population. Who needs a Manchurian Candidate to infiltrate and rig things from above when the sheep already march in lockstep with the wolves?

Attrition by natural means will take decades, and we lack the decades to spare.

[JasonBlack]

(03-20-2022, 03:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Our lack of civil responsibility is due to belief in the neoliberal ideology that we can just let the free market operate and the invisible hand will create utopia. And therefore we don't need any compassionate solutions, but just rely upon ourselves. We are due for a correction all right-- after 40 years of this "masculine" self-reliance, we need to return to caring for our society and our planet too or we won't have either. It seems to me politicians and people in general have plenty of resolve. It's where they employ it that is the problem. It's about a few people with great resolve wanting more wealth and power for themselves and less for everyone else, and deceiving people that if we all think that way, then we'll all succeed, or else that solutions just trickle down from those few "job creaters".

You're thinking more of the Gilded Age than the present era of borrow-and-spend addiction to meaningless shiny commodities and resorting to escalating emotional antics to be heard. Capitalism is not solely a masculine ideology, much less a solely male one (think Ayn Rand), and this is evident when you look at ratios of consumer spending of men vs women.

Quote:Can you really make out such evaluations based on your personal personality preferences? Sorry, but rich bosses these days need to be bossed around, and that's what AOC and other progressives offer.

Good luck trying to boss around billionnaires, investment bankers and entrepreneurs. People who go into those professions do so precisely because they are acutely aware that everyone wants to "boss them around" and take their shit. They've all been preparing for decades, and if comes to war, there's will not the lives sacrificed. Vilifying financial success is not our antidote here.

[Eric the Green]

(03-20-2022, 02:22 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(03-20-2022, 03:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Our lack of civil responsibility is due to belief in the neoliberal ideology that we can just let the free market operate and the invisible hand will create utopia. And therefore we don't need any compassionate solutions, but just rely upon ourselves. We are due for a correction all right-- after 40 years of this "masculine" self-reliance, we need to return to caring for our society and our planet too or we won't have either. It seems to me politicians and people in general have plenty of resolve. It's where they employ it that is the problem. It's about a few people with great resolve wanting more wealth and power for themselves and less for everyone else, and deceiving people that if we all think that way, then we'll all succeed, or else that solutions just trickle down from those few "job creaters".

You're thinking more of the Gilded Age than the present era of borrow-and-spend addiction to meaningless shiny commodities and resorting to escalating emotional antics to be heard. Capitalism is not solely a masculine ideology, much less a solely male one (think Ayn Rand), and this is evident when you look at ratios of consumer spending of men vs women.

I am thinking of today, not the Gilded Age. Capitalism is not solely a masculine ideology, in the sense that women go shopping, but capitalism per se is a masculine ideology because it emphasizes competition and self-reliance ideals. George Monbiot made that point in his discussion of neoliberalism. Have you seen that video? It is perfectly possible for women like Rand and Thatcher to believe in this masculine ideology. "Escalating emotional actics" are not the problem with our society, although lack of decorum seems to be a trend. The problem with our society resides in which decisions are being made about power and wealth, and who gets to make them.

Quote:

Quote:Can you really make out such evaluations based on your personal personality preferences? Sorry, but rich bosses these days need to be bossed around, and that's what AOC and other progressives offer.

Good luck trying to boss around billionnaires, investment bankers and entrepreneurs. People who go into those professions do so precisely because they are acutely aware that everyone wants to "boss them around" and take their shit. They've all been preparing for decades, and if comes to war, there's will not the lives sacrificed. Vilifying financial success is not our antidote here.

People who go into those professions do so because of the wealth and power it confers upon them. To say anything else is as Nick Nanauer might say, either a distraction or a lie. Financial success often deserves to be vilified today, because today it is mostly ill-gotten. Not always; I don't doubt there's an important place for entreprenuers and success. I don't see our society today as placing any limits on this, or that such a limit is somehow "a problem." Rich bosses these days need to be bossed around, and what I mean by that should be more than obvious. We need to return to when regulations and higher taxes were imposed upon them by our democracy, according to the needs of today; taxes and regulations which neoliberalism has made impossible.

[Anthony '58]

Someone out there - on One America Network - seems to think that Donald Trump is going to go down in history as the Gray Champion:

“Russia could’ve taken Ukraine inside of three weeks but didn’t. They’re holding back, why? China is too scared to invade Taiwan, why? The reason is because they don’t know what Trump is going to do with them in 2025. Trump remains more powerful than anyone in four generations.”

[pbrower2a]

(08-31-2022, 11:08 AM)Anthony Wrote: Someone out there - on One America Network - seems to think that Donald Trump is going to go down in history as the Gray Champion:

“Russia could’ve taken Ukraine inside of three weeks but didn’t. They’re holding back, why? China is too scared to invade Taiwan, why? The reason is because they don’t know what Trump is going to do with them in 2025. Trump remains more powerful than anyone in four generations.”

One America Network? The National Enquirer has similar credibility. 

Donald Trump seems more likely to go down as a hyper-villain of American history as someone who appealed to the worst in American life and brought it forth. Putin chose to not embarrass Trump, Putin's favorite American student -- and if you believe Malcolm Nance, a tool of Russian and Soviet intelligence since he was a young man. Supposedly Ivanka Trump was the daughter of someone in the former Czechoslovak secret police, a reliable cat's paw for the Soviet secret police until Czechoslovakia disbanded its Soviet-servile secret police. 

Let's put it this way -- having a foreign-born spouse is not good for a career as a military officer or personnel in the CIA... for good reason. If your spouse's extended family includes members of the Italian Communist Party, then you might be suspect when questions of compromised security arise. In Okinawa, American non-com men were not prevented from dating Japanese women; junior officers were strongly discouraged from doing so. There we are talking about two countries with pro-American governments.    

Donald Trump has been loyal to only one thing: himself. He brings out the worst in people so that he can get what he wants.  A real Gray Champion
like Lincoln, Juarez, FDR, Churchill, Mannerheim, Blum, or Adenauer brings out the best in people. In our time I see the closest in Angela Merkel. Maybe Obama has set a pattern for other Presidents to follow, melding the virtues of conservatism at its best with not-so-conservative optimism in human nature while rejecting a reactionary set of economic assumptions. Obama may not have been the sort that one would expect to have a cozy relationship with the Armed Forces and the Intelligence Services, but that is how things worked out. 

If there is anything to say about Donald Trump, it is that he serves as a warning of what not to tolerate in American life. He shows the dangers of pathological narcissism, the inability to bond, pathological lying, cruelty to anyone in a hard position, rejection of expertise, and no institutional loyalty. He confuses patriotism to loyalty to himself. Donald Trump is "Rosemary's Baby" having gone almost completely through his likely lifespan.

[Anthony '58]

(08-31-2022, 12:20 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(08-31-2022, 11:08 AM)Anthony Wrote: Someone out there - on One America Network - seems to think that Donald Trump is going to go down in history as the Gray Champion:

“Russia could’ve taken Ukraine inside of three weeks but didn’t. They’re holding back, why? China is too scared to invade Taiwan, why? The reason is because they don’t know what Trump is going to do with them in 2025. Trump remains more powerful than anyone in four generations.”

One America Network? The National Enquirer has similar credibility. 

Donald Trump seems more likely to go down as a hyper-villain of American history as someone who appealed to the worst in American life and brought it forth. Putin chose to not embarrass Trump, Putin's favorite American student -- and if you believe Malcolm Nance, a tool of Russian and Soviet intelligence since he was a young man. Supposedly Ivanka Trump was the daughter of someone in the former Czechoslovak secret police, a reliable cat's paw for the Soviet secret police until Czechoslovakia disbanded its Soviet-servile secret police. 

Let's put it this way -- having a foreign-born spouse is not good for a career as a military officer or personnel in the CIA... for good reason. If your spouse's extended family includes members of the Italian Communist Party, then you might be suspect when questions of compromised security arise. In Okinawa, American non-com men were not prevented from dating Japanese women; junior officers were strongly discouraged from doing so. There we are talking about two countries with pro-American governments.    

Donald Trump has been loyal to only one thing: himself. He brings out the worst in people so that he can get what he wants.  A real Gray Champion
like Lincoln, Juarez, FDR, Churchill, Mannerheim, Blum, or Adenauer brings out the best in people. In our time I see the closest in Angela Merkel. Maybe Obama has set a pattern for other Presidents to follow, melding the virtues of conservatism at its best with not-so-conservative optimism in human nature while rejecting a reactionary set of economic assumptions. Obama may not have been the sort that one would expect to have a cozy relationship with the Armed Forces and the Intelligence Services, but that is how things worked out. 

If there is anything to say about Donald Trump, it is that he serves as a warning of what not to tolerate in American life. He shows the dangers of pathological narcissism, the inability to bond, pathological lying, cruelty to anyone in a hard position, rejection of expertise, and no institutional loyalty. He confuses patriotism to loyalty to himself. Donald Trump is "Rosemary's Baby" having gone almost completely through his likely lifespan.

You act as if I like Trump or something.

I most emphatically do not - although I actually do not despise him as much as I despise hard-core Social Darwinists like Rick Scott and Ted Cruz.

But I can easily see him throwing Putin under the bus if he does pull a Grover Cleveland and wins the 2024 Presidential election.

And I'm sure you agree that Trump is the kind of madman who could use nuclear weapons in anger and turn the world's lights out - or very close to it.

[pbrower2a]

(08-31-2022, 01:09 PM)Anthony Wrote:

(08-31-2022, 12:20 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(08-31-2022, 11:08 AM)Anthony Wrote: Someone out there - on One America Network - seems to think that Donald Trump is going to go down in history as the Gray Champion:

“Russia could’ve taken Ukraine inside of three weeks but didn’t. They’re holding back, why? China is too scared to invade Taiwan, why? The reason is because they don’t know what Trump is going to do with them in 2025. Trump remains more powerful than anyone in four generations.”

One America Network? The National Enquirer has similar credibility. 

Donald Trump seems more likely to go down as a hyper-villain of American history as someone who appealed to the worst in American life and brought it forth. Putin chose to not embarrass Trump, Putin's favorite American student -- and if you believe Malcolm Nance, a tool of Russian and Soviet intelligence since he was a young man. Supposedly Ivanka Trump was the daughter of someone in the former Czechoslovak secret police, a reliable cat's paw for the Soviet secret police until Czechoslovakia disbanded its Soviet-servile secret police. 

Let's put it this way -- having a foreign-born spouse is not good for a career as a military officer or personnel in the CIA... for good reason. If your spouse's extended family includes members of the Italian Communist Party, then you might be suspect when questions of compromised security arise. In Okinawa, American non-com men were not prevented from dating Japanese women; junior officers were strongly discouraged from doing so. There we are talking about two countries with pro-American governments.    

Donald Trump has been loyal to only one thing: himself. He brings out the worst in people so that he can get what he wants.  A real Gray Champion
like Lincoln, Juarez, FDR, Churchill, Mannerheim, Blum, or Adenauer brings out the best in people. In our time I see the closest in Angela Merkel. Maybe Obama has set a pattern for other Presidents to follow, melding the virtues of conservatism at its best with not-so-conservative optimism in human nature while rejecting a reactionary set of economic assumptions. Obama may not have been the sort that one would expect to have a cozy relationship with the Armed Forces and the Intelligence Services, but that is how things worked out. 

If there is anything to say about Donald Trump, it is that he serves as a warning of what not to tolerate in American life. He shows the dangers of pathological narcissism, the inability to bond, pathological lying, cruelty to anyone in a hard position, rejection of expertise, and no institutional loyalty. He confuses patriotism to loyalty to himself. Donald Trump is "Rosemary's Baby" having gone almost completely through his likely lifespan.

You act as if I like Trump or something.

I most emphatically do not - although I actually do not despise him as much as I despise hard-core Social Darwinists like Rick Scott and Ted Cruz.

Germans who despised Hitler for his callowness and vile rhetoric supported him because he told them exactly what they wanted to hear, offered them some economic goodies (like smashing the unions or destroying Jewish competition to what would otherwise be all-powerful tycoons in the economic sphere, making promises of highly-lucrative rearmament, or intensifying the control that the Junkers had over farm laborers). To be sure, a thoroughly-scary depression and the rise of the Communists who wanted to Bolshevize Germany created its own menace to the class privilege to which Hitler sold out the laborer of farm or factory and caused Germans to seek an easy target for virulent hatred. Model minorities are always the easiest targets because they have the reputation for doing well that continues after the economy melts down. Germany had only one model minority, and that was the Jews.

One need not like a Hitler, let alone a Trump, to vote for him when the rhetoric of hatred permeates everything. The difference between Donald Trump and such hard-core Social Darwinists who seek to establish crony capitalism as the way in which all is done is that Ted Cruz and Rick Scott believe in something and Trump believes in nothing more than his ego. If I were forty years younger I would be establishing excuses for emigration in the event that someone like Cruz or Scott establishes some "Union of Christian and Corporate States" that would differ ideologically from Marxism-Leninism only in endorsing what Marxists excoriate about capitalist plutocracy at its worst.

Know well that freedom well merits some sacrifices because without it whatever one gets from the System is itself precarious, and that improvements in personal life unless one is an Insider are unlikely. Some people, given the opportunity to sell out their freedom for some economic gain, self-esteem from putting others down, and vague promises of 'national greatness' that will somehow rub off.  Above all, tyrannical regimes put life at great risk from concentration camps, torture chambers, and apocalyptic war. If you thought the Soviet Union a monstrosity, then contemplate America with either crazy or grossly-immoral leadership that makes such demands as "send us five million slaves or we will nuke your cities".  

America has spiders in its soul -- mistreatment of First Peoples, chattel slavery, Jim Crow, incarceration of Americans of Japanese ancestry, McCarthyism, and of course Donald Trump. Most of us know this, but it is an easy thing to forget.       

Quote:But I can easily see him throwing Putin under the bus if he does pull a Grover Cleveland and wins the 2024 Presidential election.

I can imagine Donald Trump having won the 2020 election and then throwing European democracy under the bus from the fledgling democracy in Ukraine all the way to Dublin and Lisbon. But it would be easy to stay in a Trump Hotel and Casino (the latter run by the Russian Mafia) in Manchester, Seville, Palermo, or Oslo. Speaking of the Mafia -- Trump might organize a friendly arrangement between the Sicilian and Russian mobs. He could think himself a great statesman on par with Bismarck or Churchill for that!   

Putin chose to not invade Ukraine because he had no desire to embarrass his Greatest American Pupil. Putin thinks President Biden fair game. 

Quote:And I'm sure you agree that Trump is the kind of madman who could use nuclear weapons in anger and turn the world's lights out - or very close to it.

The Armed Forces and the Intelligence Services would have a few words to say about that if he tried that. That would require dictatorial power, and dictatorships are particularly prone to coups. 

Donald Trump is mad, a combination of narcissism always part of his character added to the deterioration that one would expect from senility and perhaps tertiary syphilis or HIV-related dementia. I've seen senility destroy the inhibitions that people needed to keep them on an even keel, and what I saw in my father near the end of his life I see in Trump about ten years earlier in his (bad habits and a lack of people saying NO to him contributing to such in Trump). 

.........................

Narcissism is very much a part of American life. Most children go through their earlier years with narcissism before discovering that as they get to age nine or so that they dare not say whatever they feel if they are to not be beaten up. Nobody develops humility for the fun of it; one does so as a survival need, as in doing a job that one hates but dares not quit. If you think that most of the smiles that you see in people doing miserable jobs that pay minimum wage and have no reasonable chance of advancement except to quit and go elsewhere when the opportunity arises are fake -- you are right. Remember to say T.Y.F.S.O.K. (Thank you for shopping at K-Mart!) and show your smile. If you answer inquiries at a phone bank, then make sure to smile because the customer can hear the lack of a smile. Maybe truck-driving, kitchen, assembly-line, or construction work that requires little contact with the public doesn't require that one show consent with one's oppression, and such work can look good to a retail sales clerk or fast-food worker. For most people, narcissism ends when one must make sacrifices on behalf of shareholders, executives, bosses, or well-heeled customers for economic survival at a low level.

On the other side of early adulthood, it is easy to see who will get away with narcissism longer, and perhaps very late into life.

[JasonBlack]

Regardless of what your views, I think it's important to remember that a Grey Champion figure could just as easily be someone kinda evil. We could get a Hitler, Mussolini or Mao as easily as a Churchill or Lincoln.

[pbrower2a]

(09-01-2022, 12:49 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: Regardless of what your views, I think it's important to remember that a Grey Champion figure could just as easily be someone kinda evil. We could get a Hitler, Mussolini or Mao as easily as a Churchill or Lincoln.

Well (choking expressions as if in a cartoon cell), yes. That figure could present himself as a Grey Champion as a form of extreme arrogance. In some respects Lenin and Mussolini have some of the characteristics of a Grey Champion. They stood for evil causes, though; both were extremely narcissistic. I look at Mussolini and see someone melding the worst traits of an Idealist (arrogance, ruthlessness, and selfishness) with the amorality characteristic of the worst sorts of Reactive types. Mussolini continued the youthful recklessness of Reactive youth, fostering it in others far too late to have turned it into caution. 

Lincoln, Churchill, and FDR knew that the only real victory came from leaving those consigned to defeat with no cause for fighting back.  That is how the American Civil War and the Second World War ended: with the defeated feeling the sting of defeat but with no cause for striking back. The Axis powers could destroy the hatred of occupied people only by killing them.